A new level cap just might be the gamebreaker for me

[JeramieCrowe]

I think it is waaay too soon to be raising the level cap in TOR. Most MMO's go two years before they do. I understand where the OP is coming from. Adding more content of course is a good thing. I really feel like they are dangling a carrot in front of the players with the increase of the levels basically in one move to slow the lost of subs. Of course many other MMO's do this also...even the giant one..lol. Only they do it with other types of incentives. Level raises are usually reserved as a BIG carrot for buying expansions.

 

And now they're doing something that is usually reserved for expansions, not only sooner than most MMOs, but for free, and people are complaining??

 

This is amazing to me. I guess I shouldn't be shocked, though. I tried WoW long after it launched, and after a couple expansions, level caps had already been raised a couple times. I still didn't miss any content on the way through.

 

EQ2 is arguably one of the most successful and respected MMOs. In EQ2, during the years that I played, level cap was raised several times. EQ2 launched Nov. 8, 2004. The first level cap increase occurred on Sept 13, 2005, just 10 months after launch (50 to 60). Not only was this only 10 months later, but it was 10 levels, not just 5, like in this case. The next level cap increase occurred on Feb 21, 2006, from 60 to 70, only 5 months after the last one.

 

Only after those, did more time start to pass between level cap increases. The next level cap increase (70 to 80) occurred on Nov 13, 2007. This is 1 year, 9 months later. The last level cap increast (80 to 90) occurred on Feb 16th, 2010. 2 years, 3 months later.

 

And, as I was there, I don't remember anyone complaining about that. In fact, every level cap increase was quite well-received, happily, because it meant more game. Who doesn't like more game for their 15 bucks?

 

And this is just one example. I'll do more research on other MMOs, if necessary, but I really hope that I got my point across here...

[biRdyxLoCo]

Level cap without a full expansions worth of content is fail. It's nothing more than a way to keep people on the treadmill.

So the point of an mmo is not to keep players subscribed? MIND BLOWN!

[Captain_Zone]

I think it is waaay too soon to be raising the level cap in TOR. Most MMO's go two years before they do. I understand where the OP is coming from. Adding more content of course is a good thing. I really feel like they are dangling a carrot in front of the players with the increase of the levels basically in one move to slow the lost of subs. Of course many other MMO's do this also...even the giant one..lol. Only they do it with other types of incentives. Level raises are usually reserved as a BIG carrot for buying expansions.

 

Except that BioWare is doing it differently. They are adding new story content along with the new planet. New gear. New combat abilities, etc. Expect the gear curve to stay pretty much how it already is. Very gradual. And for the love of The Force, DO NOT compare it to WoW. Had a guy earlier compare this 4 or 5 level hike to the 5 level hike when Cataclysm came out and the huge gear-curve-became-a-cliff there. WoW may have just hit their level ceiling, tbh.

 

The big difference from WoW? This one is FREE.

 

Oh, and for those who say CoH isn't Gear based, for the MOST part, that's true. But.... and you KNEW there was a But coming... Enhancements ARE Gear there. You do raids in PvE and PvP zones to get new Enhancements that give you quite an advantage.

Edited June 8, 2012 by Captain_Zone

[Captain_Zone]

And now they're doing something that is usually reserved for expansions, not only sooner than most MMOs, but for free, and people are complaining??

 

*Yoda Voice* That is the way of things.... the way of MMO Forums.

[Seregul]

That's correct. Because nothing in the game exists in a vacuum, much as some of you would like to think it does.

 

They've already added content to this game without adjusting the level cap, so they can certainly do it with this content as well. Of course they can choose not to, just as they can choose to do a complete gear reset and make level 53 quest greens better than anything in the game right now. Which is fine, I have no problem with either of those things and I don't think either would damage the game in any way. I just don't see how increasing the level cap is necessary when this game is intended to be story driven. I'd prefer it if BW focused on telling the story the best way they possibly could rather than worrying about what adding 5 skill points will do to class balance.

[Captain_Zone]

They've already added content to this game without adjusting the level cap, so they can certainly do it with this content as well. Of course they can choose not to, just as they can choose to do a complete gear reset and make level 53 quest greens better than anything in the game right now. Which is fine, I have no problem with either of those things and I don't think either would damage the game in any way. I just don't see how increasing the level cap is necessary when this game is intended to be story driven. I'd prefer it if BW focused on telling the story the best way they possibly could rather than worrying about what adding 5 skill points will do to class balance.

 

Because they also have added new combat abilities, gear, and probably skill points for the skill trees.

 

Also, the content they've already added wasn't for the main story. The upcoming story content IS part of the main story. Probably both a planetary and class arc coming for Makeb.

[ZORG]

Its not about the people that have done the old stuff before, I think all those players welcome new content. Its the players that have not done the level 50 content in the game now, for whatever reason. BW is taking away part of the game from them.

 

You should be ashamed of yourself to think its ok to take content away from casuals just because they dont play the game 20 hours a day. Would like to hear from all the casuals that are happy that they now are going to lose the content of the current OPS/flashpoints just because some BW wants to add new content with a level cap increase.

 

Again they can add all the content that they are intending on add without raising the level cap.

 

I am a casual. I am in a very casual guild. I have just gotten to the point I can goto ops. Since my guild is filled with casual altoholics who may only have 1 lvl 50 bt now could get to say lvl 53 and we would have an easier time doing EV and KP hard mode and still get columni and rakata gear and it would be upgrades it just wouldnt be as hard to do.

The biggest issue is most times my guild only has 3 hours max to do an ops. Our first attempt was god awful. We set aside a friday night we all cleared or RL life schedules. Due to bugs bad audio cues and just learning EV we took over 6 hours. This frankly scared most of the members away from OPS cause they take to dam long. With level increases the casual guild can now complete some of the higher end stuff.

[ScarletBlaze]

Its not about the people that have done the old stuff before, I think all those players welcome new content. Its the players that have not done the level 50 content in the game now, for whatever reason. BW is taking away part of the game from them.

 

You should be ashamed of yourself to think its ok to take content away from casuals just because they dont play the game 20 hours a day. Would like to hear from all the casuals that are happy that they now are going to lose the content of the current OPS/flashpoints just because some BW wants to add new content with a level cap increase.

 

Again they can add all the content that they are intending on add without raising the level cap.

 

My guild is casual and we still haven't done some of these things. Just because BW added a new level cap does that mean we can't do the level 50 content in the game now? No. We can do it no matter what the level cap is. So we are not losing out on this just becasue they are adding new content. They are not taking it out of the game just becasue they are adding something new. We can do it when we get ready to do it whether it is tomorrow or when the content is added.

Edited June 8, 2012 by ScarletBlaze

[Drakkip]

They've already added content to this game without adjusting the level cap, so they can certainly do it with this content as well. Of course they can choose not to, just as they can choose to do a complete gear reset and make level 53 quest greens better than anything in the game right now. Which is fine, I have no problem with either of those things and I don't think either would damage the game in any way. I just don't see how increasing the level cap is necessary when this game is intended to be story driven. I'd prefer it if BW focused on telling the story the best way they possibly could rather than worrying about what adding 5 skill points will do to class balance.

 

This I hadn't really thought about until now. This is always the issue that escapes testing. The unintended consequences of a class now being able to get X ability AND Y ability in 2 different trees that was unaccessible before they added 5 levels.

[Captiosus]

And now they're doing something that is usually reserved for expansions, not only sooner than most MMOs, but for free, and people are complaining??

 

This is amazing to me. I guess I shouldn't be shocked, though. I tried WoW long after it launched, and after a couple expansions, level caps had already been raised a couple times. I still didn't miss any content on the way through.

 

Actually, yes you did. You missed a LOT of content that was changed, phased out, or omitted from original implementation to expansions. If you were one of those folks who only saw end game classic WoW when you could three man it in high end Lich King gear, you didn't really "see" the content - you steamrolled it just to say you did.

 

I've played MMOs almost my entire adult life and the plain truth is any time people are made aware that the gear grind is now a finite process, interest begins to wane until it sharply drops off. I watched this very process blow apart hardcore raiding guilds between classic WoW and Burning Crusade, and again between Burning Crusade and Lich King.

 

Since you weren't playing then, let me tell you how it went with Classic to Burning Crusade. At the time, I was in only one of two guilds capable of doing multiple wings in Naxxramas 40-man. When Blizzard announced that they were releasing the a patch for BC before the release of BC, specifically changing the PVP system and talent trees, our raiding guild stopped in its tracks. No one wanted to raid anymore. The writing was on the wall: BC was around the corner, why waste time farming Tier 3 when we're about to get a whole new level cap, more talent points, and a new gear treadmill. Half our guild stopped logging in over the course of several days, many of which didn't return until BC was released. Some never returned at all.

 

Raising the level cap will basically wipe current end game off the map. I see people here saying they'll still run it. Sure you will. When you reach level 55 and have level 70+ gear. You won't be running it at level 50. Most people power to max level - they're not going to stop at 50 and run some OPs just because they're there, just like people didn't stop at 60 after Burning Crusade to run 40 man raids in WoW. No, they just came back at 70 after they had their tier 5 so they could roflstomp through them. So, please, be honest with yourselves. You're not stopping at 50 to do any of the current content after the level cap is raised ever again. You might come back at 55. Maybe. But only for nostalgia.

 

EQ2 is arguably one of the most successful and respected MMOs.

 

LOLWUT?

 

Talk to any longtime MMO player and they'll tell you how much of a complete disappointment EQ2 was. If EQ2 was so successful, people wouldn't have flocked away from it en masse for Warcraft. Comparing TOR to EQ2 when damn near every MMO player I know considers EQ2 a disappointment and step backwards is just priceless.

 

But it doesn't matter what I say or how I say it, you're just going to summarily dismiss it and continue to proclaim TOR has a bright rosy future. Good luck with that. Character transfer system copied directly from Blizzard from 2006? Check. Terrible customer service? Check. Overpromising and underdelivering? Check.

 

Yep, that's gonna rack up the subs. (/sarcasm)

Edited June 8, 2012 by Captiosus

[Drakkip]

<snip>

EQ2 is arguably one of the most successful and respected MMOs.

 

http://users.telenet.be/mmodata/Charts/Subs-2.png

 

This graph disagrees with your statement. I get that might be your opinion, and that's fine, but, EQ2 never reached the peak sub numbers of several of the other games on that graph, including it's predecessor EQ1

[thominoh]

IMO.. I think the level cap announcement is nothing more then bioware saying, "We couldn't come with any decent content to keep players here, so we raised the bar that should keep you busy for another month"... All this is going to do is make all the 50's go back to becoming 60's, and repeat the same GRIND they did already....... Is that really new long term content to resolve the problems the game has? Really?

[Devlonir]

IMO.. I think the level cap announcement is nothing more then bioware saying, "We couldn't come with any decent content to keep players here, so we raised the bar that should keep you busy for another month"... All this is going to do is make all the 50's go back to becoming 60's, and repeat the same GRIND they did already....... Is that really new long term content to resolve the problems the game has? Really?

 

IMO.. I think the level cap announcement is nothing more then bioware saying, "We realise that just adding more tiers of gear will mean we are forced to make gear absolete once we finally do raise the cap, so we do it now while our item levels are still near our player levels"... All this is going to do is make all the 50's go back to becoming whatever level Bioware had in mind, and make sure their gear is not obsolete for the next tier of content. Basicly creating a new tier with an added requirement of joining by adding more levels....... If they keep doing this every 2-3 tiers of gear, it seems to solve the problem of item level inflation so many other level and gear based MMO's have over the years.

[Smashbrother]

I've been playing this game without getting involved in the doomsaying or complaints for a long time now even while I watche activity on the server slowly melt away. But I got to say the anouncment of a raised level cap absolutely stunned me. Unless I'm missing something here it seems the worst possible move. Right now the servers suffer from players waiting till things get fixed. In my experience the anouncement of raised level caps usualy slowed down current raiding to a crawl since everyone knows their equip will be outdated within two levels anyway.

In my case my current motivation was working on all my crafting profesions, reverse engineering so I could outfit all my companions with purple gear (this is already inferior to just raiding and using leftover Columni but I just PVP..) but what's the point now? It's a ton of work to reverse engineer just the right purples and now I know they won't be good for long. I'm not even sure it is worth grinding PVP for War Hero gear now as I asume there will be new sets at the new cap.

I will say that I'm looking forward to more story but essentialy these news tell me "sit back, wait for the expansion to hit."

This is always the case with such anouncement but in a game already lacking player activity this just doesn't feel like a good idea.

 

Such is the nature of MMORPGs.

 

Did you complain about having to update gear when you went from level 10 to 20? Doubt it.

[Goretzu]

IMO.. I think the level cap announcement is nothing more then bioware saying, "We couldn't come with any decent content to keep players here, so we raised the bar that should keep you busy for another month"... All this is going to do is make all the 50's go back to becoming 60's, and repeat the same GRIND they did already....... Is that really new long term content to resolve the problems the game has? Really?

 

I really hope there's more too it than that this time.

 

 

But, yes, that's largely the every 18 month major expansion Themepark MMORPG model.

[Goretzu]

Such is the nature of MMORPGs.

 

Did you complain about having to update gear when you went from level 10 to 20? Doubt it.

 

 

 

That's not the same thing at all.

 

Under the 18 month major expansion Themepark model most people get 6-12 months of being max level and gearing up.

 

That never happens at L10 to L20, as there is no forced stopping point, its still within the levelling grind.

 

 

 

The gearing up time is part of the model and the hook, if that time is suddenly gone or drastically shortened in an MMORPG, then there needs to be other things to replace it...... and arguable a change in the whole model used.

[Kaisernick]

remmember that if say the level cap is 60 your end game gear will most likely still be viable to at least lvl 56.

 

i had a lvl 10 consular in purple mod gear and i didnt need to replace the mods till lvl 20 i was still kicking *** and the other mods had worse stats.

[GooseGrims]

idk why ppl are worried about current raiding/pvp gear being useless, you can re-mod everything with the new stuff if you like it that much. not like your orange gear comes with the best mods you still need to go raid/pvp for that.

 

i cant wait for a new lvl cap i loved the sith warrior story and cant wait to continue it, and im assuming the HK companion will be something obtained on the new planet while lvling.

 

the only time i hated getting a raised lvl cap was when i played WoW cause the gear did become useless and it took them 7-8 years to correct that mistake, 6 or so months and we have a system in place to be able to use any gear we have (of our armor type) i saved my juggs champion helm and am using that with a black/red hooded robe and dont ever plan on changing it and may hang on to my BH's rakata chest, love the way the art team did the jet back on it.

[thominoh]

I really hope there's more too it than that this time.

 

 

But, yes, that's largely the every 18 month major expansion Themepark MMORPG model.

 

Yes.. some companies like Blizzard liked the 18-24 month expansion idea.. I have no problem with that.. Expansions are made to come out when a vast number of players meet burn out..... If Bioware is already facing burn out at 6 month mark, that isnt' good.. is it?

[dazednconfuzed]

You play to level, and you level as you play.

 

This is circular thinking. You level to play, but you play to level. it's like the old argument aout raiders getting the best loot. They say they need the loot to raid, but they raid for the loot.

 

Sorry, but that is not what this, or any game is about. They are games, you don't play them to level, or to get loot. You play them for fun.

[MbaxterBeau]

There really is nothing any mmo could have that would make some of you happy. When I read these forums it amazes me that the complainers in here are playing the same game.

[Sauska]

There really is nothing any mmo could have that would make some of you happy. When I read these forums it amazes me that the complainers in here are playing the same game.

Amen.

 

Besides, a new level cap always makes the former level gear outdated, but isn't that part of the fun? Running new ops and getting new shiny loot? I really don't understand the problem with that...

[dazednconfuzed]

Have you people never played MMOs before? Like really. Not trolling here at all.

 

They are SUPPOSED to increase the level cap. We are SUPPOSED to progress the story and our power this way.

 

Being level 50 forever is not what was planned and no one should have expected that.

 

Clearly you haven't played many MMOs then. Sure, some, probably most in fact, are like you describe. Increased level cap, new higher level areas, a whole new endgame, and so on.

 

But not all of them. Some of the ones that work very well still have a level cap of 50. Take City of Heroes for example. Their level cap has been 50 for years now, but it doesn't stop them adding new content.

 

Increasing level cap doesn't necessarily mean that they are progressing your story either. Or, for that matter, progressing your story doesn't necessarily mean increasing your level. Or, if playing TOR and you level to 50 through pvp before you finish your class story, does that mean that you cannot finish your class story because you can't level through it? Ridiculous. You can progress as much as you want when you hit level 50.

[Devlonir]

Increasing level cap doesn't necessarily mean that they are progressing your story either. Or, for that matter, progressing your story doesn't necessarily mean increasing your level. Or, if playing TOR and you level to 50 through pvp before you finish your class story, does that mean that you cannot finish your class story because you can't level through it? Ridiculous. You can progress as much as you want when you hit level 50.

 

Also, increasing level cap doesn't necessarily mean that your gear is immediately outdated, something most people here seem to dislike above all else about the prospect of it.

 

Even WoW had one entire paid expansion which did not give better gear untill you started the new endgame, if you were geared high enough.

People in Tier 6/Tier 6.5 gear after TBC could clear Naxxramas in WotLK without ever needing to get new gear from quests. The only thing better was max level blue or purple quality gear.

It is a shame WoW moved away from that model for the sake of 'making people get the looks from the new expansion as well'.

 

I personally hope, no expect this game to follow a similar approach as done in WoW's Wrath.. just let people level up in their level 50 endgame gear, let them use that as well at new level cap as starter gear for the new endgame.

That way, the actual 'loss of worth' of gear is not bigger than what you get for releasing a new tier of endgame.

 

But no, because people are used to the WoW model of your first quests at the new level replacing gear of even the highest tier hardmode raids before, they now thing raising level caps is an evil sin to take away all their hard earned work.

 

I hope TOR will proove those reactions wrong again with their smaller level cap jumps.

Edited June 8, 2012 by Devlonir

[Ash_Spark]

I do believe that if the the level cap was raised my friends and i would play more because of the fact that there would be so much more to achieve