Daniel Erickson thinks X-Server LFG is last resort

[Jederix]

Most people are decent. But all it takes is 1 person out of 4 to ruin the experience. Or, in the case of Ops, 1 person out of 8. Or 1 person out of 16.

 

This whole debate is subjective and anecdotal. Everyone's experiences differ from the next. I can categorically tell you that, when using a X-server LFG, my personal experiences were about 90% bad. In Rift, for example, when the LFG first came it was same server. The experience at the time was about 40% bad, and people were posting in world or 50 chat the name of the idiot that pulled a stunt and what he did. It became more difficult for that person to get a group. And usually that person's attempt at a defense told the story.

 

Enter X-server. My personal experience is that the bad experience jumped from 40% to 90%, with no way to warn or call out the idiot. That person is more free to pull his shenanigans. Like I said, all it takes is one person.

 

Your experience, as you have related, is totally different. Then again, I have extremely bad luck with RNG, too.

 

So, an X-server toggle is the answer. It present us with choice since the nature of the tool provides anectodal and subjective experiences.

 

Sure, add a toggle. I'm all for choice. If you are willing to wait longer for a same server group, kudos. Most people are not willing to wait. Because the wait will be longer. I'd venture to guess considerably longer.

 

And just for the record, it's all fine and dandy that people blacklisted others. But don't think for a minute that you were denying anyone groups. Outside your circle of friends and maybe your guild, your blacklist meant nothing.

 

I'm more inclined to think less of the person crying about a ninja than the actual ninja themselves. The term "ninja" too often is used when someone legitimately loses a piece of gear to someone else, and they feel they deserved it more than the other person, than an actual instance of someone stealing gear just because they can. Probably the whole "The Boy Who Cried Wolf" thing going on here, for me at least.

[ryathal]

Actually, YOU are the one ignoring everything. You still haven't answered why people would go to a different game made by someone completely different and expect the same experience. A MMO does not need 500 million subscribers to be successful. There are more MMOs on the market than just WoW and most of which are still successful in their own right, even without an auto party former. The reason why WoW is so "successful" is because they changed to target the very simple minded people, and it shows in the community now.

 

A LFG tool is not like windows, steering wheel, etc. It is like an automatic parking system. Not every car has one, and not everyone cares to have one.

This right here is what I have been saying since February.

Because whether I buy a ford or a toyota I expect both to have a radio, AC, and power windows. And if I buy an mmo I expect ui customization and lfg tools whether blizzard makes it or bioware.

[Skidrowbro]

Because whether I buy a ford or a toyota I expect both to have a radio, AC, and power windows. And if I buy an mmo I expect ui customization and lfg tools whether blizzard makes it or bioware.

 

Then you look for the ones that have those feature and not plague the ones that don't

[JeramieCrowe]

Sure, add a toggle. I'm all for choice. If you are willing to wait longer for a same server group, kudos. Most people are not willing to wait. Because the wait will be longer. I'd venture to guess considerably longer.

 

Again, depends on personal experience. My experience is that, while it was faster to get a group, it took three times longer to do the actual dungeon or raid because of cycling through group members the whole time. Drop. requeue... drop, requeue... drop, requeue.

 

And just for the record, it's all fine and dandy that people blacklisted others. But don't think for a minute that you were denying anyone groups. Outside your circle of friends and maybe your guild, your blacklist meant nothing.

 

And, just for the record, it wasn't me or my guild doing the blacklisting. It was everyone on the server in 50- or world-chat. And it was quite effective. I've seen a few of the blacklisted actually apologize in 50-chat because they kept getting kicked when queued into a group.

 

And I think this is exactly the way it should be handled. The community should police itself, not rely on GMs or the exclusion of useful tools.

 

I'm more inclined to think less of the person crying about a ninja than the actual ninja themselves. The term "ninja" too often is used when someone legitimately loses a piece of gear to someone else, and they feel they deserved it more than the other person, than an actual instance of someone stealing gear just because they can. Probably the whole "The Boy Who Cried Wolf" thing going on here, for me at least.

 

There are many MANY more reasons that just "ninja", which, personally, is just about the least of my personal worry. I could list them, but again, they're subjective. They're MY worries. So you'll likely not agree and just pick them apart. Not constructive.

Edited May 30, 2012 by JeramieCrowe

[Jederix]

Again, depends on personal experience. My experience is that, while it was faster to get a group, it took three times longer to do the actual dungeon or raid because of cycling through group members the whole time. Drop. requeue... drop, requeue... drop, requeue.

 

 

 

And, just for the record, it wasn't me or my guild doing the blacklisting. It was everyone on the server in 50- or world-chat. And it was quite effective. I've seen a few of the blacklisted actually apologize in 50-chat because they kept getting kicked when queued into a group.

 

And I think this is exactly the way it should be handled. The community should police itself, not rely on GMs or the exclusion of useful tools.

 

 

 

There are many MANY more reasons that just "ninja", which, personally, is just about the least of my personal worry. I could list them, but again, they're subjective. They're MY worries. So you'll likely not agree and just pick them apart. Not constructive.

 

Yeah, maybe there are many reasons. I don't concern myself with what other people are doing; it doesn't affect me the way it seems to affect some of the people around here.

 

Best part about getting a bad group with a group finder is, you don't have to stay there. You can drop group, queue up for another in a few minutes, and go about your business.

 

We'll just have to agree to disagree. But denying the tool based on the subjective view of a few people around here is ridiculous.

[Rezakh]

Daniel Erickson, Lead Game Designer for Star Wars: The Old Republic, in an interview:

 

 

How can a multi-million Star Wars online multiplayer game have a lead designer that is this clueless about running a successful MMO service?

 

Here's a clue, Daniel: I am not looking for some 'last resorts' in your service product. I want the convenience to play with millions of strangers, anonymously over the Internet, with the convenience of pressing a button and the magic happening.

 

A LFG tool is just that, a tool. It has to work 24/7. It has to work irrespective of US primetime, EU primetime, AUS primetime, Japan primetime, India primetime, Arab-Emirates primetime. It has to work for people working night-shifts, day-shifts, double-shifts, 1 job, 2 jobs, 3 jobs, not working at all or taking care of their baby.

 

A LFG tool works the better the bigger the population it can draw from. This is something that's obvious to everyone. Making it cross-server as a last resort is too late. This too should be obvious, at least to a Lead Game Designer.

 

World of Warcraft, a game you might think was at its best during Vanilla/TBC, put in theirs right after their subscription numbers had started to drop. Their subscriptions have since stabilized. Maybe that's a coincidence, or maybe they know a thing or two about running an MMO service and challenging your preconceptions.

 

Edit:

 

What really gets under my skin is the hubris. Does this Lead Game Designer never entertain the thought that maybe he could be wrong? Would he say the same thing if he thought there was a chance he had gotten it completely wrong?

 

If in 2 months, despite everything, X-Server LFG is added and someone wants to make the case that the game is on its last legs, well there's your money-quote, straight from the horse's mouth!

 

On the other hand, if in 2 months I'm on the outside looking in and see that patch 1.5 is going to add X-Server LFG, is that going to entice me to come back knowing that the Lead Game Designer is going for the game's last resort?

 

I am holding out hope for one of the following two to happen in response to his statement:

He realizes he's undeniably and monumentally wrong.

Or he gets fired.

 

I am actually more inclined to see the latter happen. The guy is just way too much of a liability for the game's life-cycle at this stage. I also am beginning to think the same about JO. I'm unsubbed till things change. No point giving them money to get something right that should have already been done.

 

I want them to succeed, I really do. But I am not willing to be an investor for their game development after its launch, which is exactly what I would be doing if I kept my sub going. However, I am happy for those that are still playing that are enjoying it while they wait for the fixes.

[JeramieCrowe]

We'll just have to agree to disagree. But denying the tool based on the subjective view of a few people around here is ridiculous.

 

That's what we agree on. Read my post you just quoted, I said so. Thus the X-server toggle suggestion.

[Jederix]

That's what we agree on. Read my post you just quoted, I said so. Thus the X-server toggle suggestion.

 

Oh, it wasn't worded very clearly. I know we agree on the toggle. I was agreeing to disagree on the particular reasons why you think XServer is bad and why I do not.

[Muskaan]

That's what we agree on. Read my post you just quoted, I said so. Thus the X-server toggle suggestion.

 

I agree with this. Should be an optional feature instead of eliminating it completely. Allow users to toggle it on/off when queuing up in LFG.

[Pexxle]

Cross Server for PvP or bust. Depending on the server many choose not to PvP, forcing us to rely on a random group of ALTS or new 50's if not in a premade anyway.

[JeramieCrowe]

Cross Server for PvP or bust. Depending on the server many choose not to PvP, forcing us to rely on a random group of ALTS or new 50's if not in a premade anyway.

 

Already been announced. X-server PvP queuing is coming.

[Gungan]

Actually, YOU are the one ignoring everything. You still haven't answered why people would go to a different game made by someone completely different and expect the same experience. A MMO does not need 500 million subscribers to be successful. There are more MMOs on the market than just WoW and most of which are still successful in their own right, even without an auto party former. The reason why WoW is so "successful" is because they changed to target the very simple minded people, and it shows in the community now.

 

A LFG tool is not like windows, steering wheel, etc. It is like an automatic parking system. Not every car has one, and not everyone cares to have one.

 

 

 

 

This right here is what I have been saying since February.

Excuse me? Show me any MMO that doesn't have a LFG function, then you can compare it to a parking system in a car. An LFG tool exists in any of the following forms: LFG channel, flag + comment, social window, who with content search filters, party billboard, party matching, automated matchmaking. These are listed from most basic to most advanced. LFG is a required tool in MMOs.

 

Who the hell is going to buy a supposed expensive 3000 lbs luxury car with a 150 CC two stroke engine? That is what SWTOR is right now: a super expensive 3000 lbs car, with the worst possible LFG imaginable under the hood (short of not having one at all).

 

I could forgive a mid-range LFG from a small studio with a limited budget, but I'll be damned if I settle for anything but the most advanced features from a studio like BioWare, and a property like Star Wars.

Edited May 30, 2012 by Gungan

[JeramieCrowe]

Excuse me? Show me any MMO that doesn't have a LFG function, then you can compare it to a parking system in a car. An LFG tool exists in any of the following forms: LFG channel, flag + comment, social window, who with content search filters, party billboard, party matching, automated matchmaking. These are listed from most basic to most advanced. LFG is a required tool in MMOs.

 

Who the hell is going to buy a supposed expensive 3000 lbs luxury car with a 150 CC two stroke engine? That is what SWTOR is right now: a super expensive 3000 lbs car, with the worst possible LFG imaginable under the hood (short of not having one at all).

 

I could forgive a mid-range LFG from a small studio with a limited budget, but I'll be damned if I settle for anything but the most advanced features from a studio like BioWare, and a property like Star Wars.

 

Really wish people would stop using products as an analogy. It's bad. Very bad. MMOs are a service, not a product.

[kilosoldier]

Cool, The developers have made all the right moves so far......

[Matte_Black]

The way I see it with the car metaphor, the convenience/accountability issue makes the choice something akin to picking between an automatic or standard transmission. Most drivers are probably fine with an automatic transmission but, there will be times where you wish you had a standard for it's inherant advantages and the automatic simply does not have them. We can have the convenience or the accountability and tighter knit community but, we can't have both. I agree with DE's comments and, frankly, would be upset to have an element of the game that it was delievered with removed from me.

 

Allowing cross-server PvP match-ups may be a decent compromise since matches tend to be shorter-lived and it helps to vent some bad feelings out of the server but, I really don't PvP to speak of so I don't have strong feelings either way.

Edited May 30, 2012 by Matte_Black

[Spartanik]

Really wish people would stop using products as an analogy. It's bad. Very bad. MMOs are a service, not a product.

You are right and wrong at the same time.

The way i see it is a paying service that alows you to consume a product. The overall number of people using that service depends of the product quality, and on the quality of the service given.

If you think we are paying for the privilege to play this game, you are right, we despite paying for a product, we also need to play a sub to be able to play that product, so in the end doesnt matter if you own a copy or not,you actualy do no own a thing.

But dont be naive they are selling a product to a consumer, when the consumer no longer consume, and pays for it, Bioware EA, will not be selling his product, and will be losing money.

Edited May 30, 2012 by Spartanik

[Gungan]

Really wish people would stop using products as an analogy. It's bad. Very bad. MMOs are a service, not a product.

 

A service is still a product.

[JeramieCrowe]

A service is still a product.

 

A better analogy would be a internet service provider. All provide internet, but one provides features and gimmicks that another does not. But the latter provides features and gimmicks that the former does not. This is because no feature exists in a vacuum.

 

It seems, as your posts indicate, that you think they do. Because products, such as cars, do not suffer from this restriction like a service does.

Edited May 30, 2012 by JeramieCrowe

[netskink]

Your friends list is your best LFG tool. Cross server LFG tool is a waste of your time. Same server LFG tool is iffy. Even using /1 to find two dps for me and my pal has been a waste of time. EVERYTIME we have done a non guild run, we have ended up with wipes. Once we had a BH using str gear and a Inq using aim gear.

[Spartanik]

Your friends list is your best LFG tool. Cross server LFG tool is a waste of your time. Same server LFG tool is iffy. Even using /1 to find two dps for me and my pal has been a waste of time. EVERYTIME we have done a non guild run, we have ended up with wipes. Once we had a BH using str gear and a Inq using aim gear.

Well at this point a LFG tool that is not cross server i belive its pointless.

[JeramieCrowe]

I was agreeing to disagree on the particular reasons why you think XServer is bad and why I do not.

 

And my point is that there is nothing to agree or disagree on. My experiences are my own, and your's are your own. That's why this debate is pointless. That's why options for both are needed.

[Matte_Black]

And my point is that there is nothing to agree or disagree on. My experiences are my own, and your's are your own. That's why this debate is pointless. That's why options for both are needed.

 

I'd have to say that while people may prefer one or the other, there is no real way for both sides to have what they want. It has to be an either or thing for the most part. You either side with the harder method of developing playmates that tend to be more reliable and positive contributors or you side with fast easy grouping that will be much more likely to leave you with a bad taste in your mouth. Do you want a good group with effort or just want a group? Which ever is chosen, sort of undermines the other.

 

From my point of view, no cross-server LFG is how the game was delivered and how the devs maent it to be. Why should I as an initial and continuing customer who diligently investigated what the game would include have to give up what I see as a feature because some players feel they need to play every game in the fashion that they played one in the past?

 

The right fix is to do something about server underpopulation, not adapt to it.

Edited May 30, 2012 by Matte_Black

[Gungan]

A better analogy would be a internet service provider. All provide internet, but one provides features and gimmicks that another does not. But the latter provides features and gimmicks that the former does not. This is because no feature exists in a vacuum.

 

It seems, as your posts indicate, that you think they do. Because products, such as cars, do not suffer from this restriction like a service does.

 

That's a terrible analogy.

[NDiggy]

Years from now, when industry analysts are dissecting SWTOR to find out what went wrong, all they'll have to do is point to this thread. Clueless developers allowing the vocal minority of players on the forum to dictate what they implement in game will be a major factor in the game's demise.

[Gungan]

I'd have to say that while people may prefer one or the other, there is no real way for both sides to have what they want. It has to be an either or thing for the most part. You either side with the harder method of developing playmates that tend to be more reliable and positive contributors or you side with fast easy grouping that will be much more likely to leave you with a bad taste in your mouth. Do you want a good group with effort or just want a group? Which ever is chosen, sort of undermines the other.

 

From my point of view, no cross-server LFG is how the game was delivered and how the devs maent it to be. Why should I as an initial and continuing customer who diligently investigated what the game would include have to give up what I see as a feature because some players feel they need to play every game in the fashion that they played one in the past?

 

The right fix is to do something about server underpopulation, not adapt to it.

 

Products and services evolve, especially when a new feature becomes an industry standard. Show me a phone company that does not offer call display.

 

LTE is new, and the "hardcore" smartphone users want more speed, so it's the industry standard now. Some people don't care to have a smartphone for 70 Mbps wireless, and that's fine, but realistically you'd have to be out of your mind to leave your wireless provider because they added in a new feature.

 

The only difference (and possibly the cause of this whole problem altogether) is that you don't have to pay for LTE or call display (which normally cost extra) if you don't want it, but everyone pays the same price in SWTOR. Maybe that needs to change, and people can pay for whatever features they want... assuming of course that you're still on board with labelling it a "service", instead of a "product".

 

Labelling FTW.

Edited May 30, 2012 by Gungan