AP and Pyro: A PvP Discussion

[TheOpf]

We need a thread to discuss and remove a lot of the misnomers, misinformation, and generalizations about the two classes in general. First off let’s remove the obvious misinformation that has been around since the game launched.

 

1. Neither Pyro or AP are ranged, mid-ranged or range plus melee dps. They are both 10M and in. Pyro has a slightly better ranged dps simply because of their rail shot will hit 30 percent harder, td every 15 seconds, and IM. Outside of 10m both are limited to RS every 15 seconds. Neither are effective for any period of time, and if Pyro stays at range it will overheat quickly. Both are most effective within 4 meters, Pyro for heat out of RP, and AP for RB and RP.

 

2. AP is not the AoE tree. We have one attack that an change from a 5-7k channel to a 20k damage channel if more than one person gets in front of it. AP is not like Engineering from the snipers where every attack is aoe. The AP is just as effective at 1v1 as Pyro. They do approximately the same damage over the same time delivered differently.

 

3. Neither AP nor Pyro possess any sort of more survival skills than the other. Pyro appears to go down faster because many Pyro players do not use Energy Rebounder as they should. Norse build AP see a 6 percent greater damage reduction than standard AP. AP seems to survive simply because it doesn’t it sees a huge damage reduction when stunned which Pyro doesn’t see. They have the same time to death given the same gear if both have their cool downs up.

 

4. Both specs are widely complained about by melee and healers who don’t like being killed. Healers hate AP because with HO, the 15 percent in combat speed buff, and the 70 percent slow it’s next to impossible to get away. They hate pyro because no matter what they heal the damage will be taken away next, and just when they catch up bam they are back to where they started.

 

Now to cover some of the basic differences between AP and Pyro, and the easiest way to do that is to give a very basic rundown as to both the classes.

 

Advanced Prototype: Requires a high state of awareness of where everyone on the opposing team and your team is in order to setup PFT to be the most efficient. Has absolutely no heat problems in pvp, so the entire concentration is on opponents health, cast bar, and positioning of possible aid. AP is extremely mobile, and even with snares is able to cover distances faster than just about anyone.

 

Pyro: Requires constant monitoring of heat and procs. Is heavily reliant on RNG for it’s big burst, has no worries about positioning as it’s mobile burst allows it to be on constant movement and hammering. However, constant heat monitoring is necessary in order to best keep going.

 

In a pvp battle how do both teams react and what is the most common mistake a player makes.

 

Pyrotech: The good, the bad, and the ugly

 

The Good

 

Highly Mobile burst which destroys people who don’t pay attention.

 

Energy Rebounder is it’s defensive Cooldown and is the single most important survival tool at Pyro’s disposal without it, you are a glass cannon.

 

Multiple damage types – They are not heavily reliant on elemental damage so they can switch without seeing too big of a dps drop off.

 

The Bad:

 

Once rooted or CC’d the Pyro can be burned down without much worry. It’s kill or be killed, and is why most ranged can blow through a Pyro if they save their KB for Grapple pulls.

 

If you plan your stuns when they hit you with TD than they lose 40 percent of their burst ability, but since most people don’t do this it makes the Pyro seem much more dangerous than they really are. Separating TD from the RNG burst makes Pyro’s much less intimidating. On my operative, I don’t fear Pyrotechs at all.

 

The Ugly

 

Pyro is not the premier pvp tree of them. Their lack of mobility leads them to be controlled easily by a smart player, they can also be easily neutralized by a coordinated team.

 

They have no passive defensive cooldowns. They have no passive heat venting unless you count being stunned. This puts them at a disadvantage if they aren’t using Energy Rebounder consistently.

 

Dead time – Outside of the every 9 second RNG procs their damage is easily mitigated and ignored. All of their damage is tied into the RNG RS/RP/RS with TD going off. If you mitigate it out or split up their damage at all they are essentially neutered.

 

In the end a really good Pyro knows the ugly and does what he can to avoid those situations. However, every single regular Pyro player has found himself stunned right when his rng procced and watched a guy kill him that he knew he could kill. Any Pyro who doesn’t have his shield up all the time is a bad pyro. If you like RNG, proc watching, and big numbers this is the spec for you.

 

Advanced Prototype: The Good, the Bad, and The Ugly

 

The Good

 

Consistent High damage – Not a single attack hits for less than 2.2k at BM gear level. This leads to some serious damage against just about anyone.

 

Highly mobility - They never have to stop moving with HO and a 15 percent speed buff, they can catch anyone mid fight. Now that they have slows it is even more devastating.

 

Passive defensive cooldowns and reduced CD on CC – 20 percent damage reduction when stunned (happens all the time), and more grapples, electro darts, and quells will annoy, fluster, and frustrate any caster.

 

The Bad:

 

Their best slow and hardest hitting attack is tied into a channeled spell. For a tree that reeks of staying mobile PFT can seem counterproductive and it’s cone aoe which makes no sense to tie it to AP.

 

There is no surprise in their attacks. Every attack hits for about the same, give or take 15-20 percent damage. This makes it easier for healers to figure out when to heal and stun.

 

It's a boring tree. I like it but spamming the same three buttons is horrilbly boring. The most exciting thing is staying mobile and watching everything.

 

The Ugly

 

All of their damage is tied completely into Tech damage. Any Force mitigating abilities completely wipes out 95 percent of AP’s damage. For an Advanced Prototype, that’s not very advanced.

Channeled spells are never fun for a melee class – if you aren’t constantly aware of your surroundings you can find you popped your PFT and the guy isn’t in front of you or his buddy snuck up behind you and stunned you.

 

A good AP player learns to strafe continuously, and keeps his eyes on his environment and not his bar. He utilizes quell, his cc’s, and positioning to force opponents out of their comfort zone.

 

In the end, you have two completely different playstyles, and this is why so many PT’s have problems with AP. You have to forget everything you learned as a Pyro, and play completely differently. It’s not situational or the difference between burst it’s about style and awareness. I play Ap because I love the fluidity and the subtle strength of a misunderstood tree. I don’t play Pyro because I hate being at the mercy of RNG.

 

The truth:

 

Pyro is not as strong as people say. Any smart player can effectively neutralize a pyro by spreading his damage out. If your RNG doesn’t proc you fall behind. However, if you get the procs, and the opposing player doesn’t stop you, he will go down.

 

AP is not as mobile as people claim. It has the same defensive cooldowns as pyro and requires constant awareness, and monitoring where you are. It’s not difficult to setup PFT. You just stop and pow hit the guy than keep moving. Not sure why people complain about it.

 

This misdirection about burst is ridiculous. If Pyro has burst than AP has steady burst because AP hits harder on every single one of it’s hits than Pyro does. Pyro does 9 seconds of crap damage followed by RNG loving hard hitting damage back to crap. If that’s what burst is, than AP has 12 seconds of constant burst followed channeled burst, followed by 12 more seconds of constant burst.

 

Don’t reply with well I time my RS around TD’s proc. Yeah if anyone doesn’t pop shield or stun you with TD on them, than they are a bad player. Why do we claim that PFT stinks because you can get stunned out of it. When a Pyro can be stunned out of his RNG, You hit me with rail shot and RP. I stun you, now you got no burst for 15 seconds.

 

I got nothing against Pyro. I am just tired of people misrepresenting AP, and making this ridiculous assumption about Burst being the sole reason for switching. If you play Pyro it’s because you do a better job of watching yourself than you do your environment. If you play AP it’s because you find RNG and being at the mercy of RNG to be unmanageable.

 

If someone does the same amount of damage in the same 6-9 second span than they do the same amount of burst.

[anarchythreeotwo]

I'm interested in trying AP Spec, I am currently Pyro.

 

Can you be specific on which attacks hit harder?

 

I tried AP once and noticed:

 

- railshot was about half the dmg (went from around 5.5k railshots to 3k-3.5k)

- retractable blade hits less than flame burst

- immolate hits less than thermal detonator

 

Which spec are you using? I would love to try again and see what happens.

Edited May 25, 2012 by anarchythreeotwo

[Siphorus]

I am not sure where this thread is going on this subject. There is no question about what spec is the best. Pyro literally destroyed every other spec. The only question is where to be 7/3/31 or 4/6/31

[anarchythreeotwo]

I am not sure where this thread is going on this subject. There is no question about what spec is the best. Pyro literally destroyed every other spec. The only question is where to be 7/3/31 or 4/6/31

 

Yeah there is a AP spec on my server with full war hero like my self and I kill him in 5gcds

[LoKiei]

Its pretty clear that Pyro is a simpler spec to play. I don't blame anyone for going the easier route.

[Jewa_taken]

I agree with TheOpf on alot here.

 

On my little server there are only two PTs that I regularly see in WZs. Me, a pyro, and my guildie, an AP.

When we are in the same match our dmg and kills are very similar. Sometimes he edges me out a bit, sometimes I do.

 

Anecdotal evidence, I know, but the damage output seems similar to me.

 

And maybe it's because I'm an average player but I do have to look at my bars all the time to see if RS is up, used to hit it on giggle, but not anymore

 

If my target is almost down there is no chance I'll be using Rapid over FB so overheating is def an issue.

 

That being said, I'm really happy with pyro. A buffed burst when it happens is a glorious thing and even though I can't use TD often enough to maximize its use it has given me so many happy moments! TD on stealthers, TD as you die and so on.

 

I still miss the rare RNG moments of unending RS pre 1.2, they made me lol for real.

[gravioli]

I did the entire WH gear grind as AP spec, then I purchased two extra WH combat medic pieces to try out a pyro spec with energy rebounder. My current pyro spec seems leaps and bounds better than any AP spec. The only thing that I believe AP has going for it is HO and heat management. The biggest problem with AP dps is that PFT is way too situational and I found opponents getting very good at avoiding it with stuns or just running out of my LOS.

[Hethroin]

For me, nothing AP offers will ever replace that "what just happened" look painted all over the enemy team's faces when their healer gets blind sided by the pyro rotation. Though maybe meltig the tank guarding that healer with PFT would come in a close second.

[Greedy]

"AP hits harder on every single one of it’s hits than Pyro does"

what abilities? The two builds focuses different abilities. AP - FB, IMM and PFT. Pyro - TD and RS procs.

I don't see how you can say that AP hits harder on every single hit?

AP - Pyro

IMM < TD

FB > FB

RS < RS

RP > RP

PFT is really good if you get all ticks off. But it has a longer cool down, and its easier to counter than a RS proc

 

"Pyro does 9 seconds of crap damage followed by RNG loving hard hitting damage back to crap."

-huh??

 

"Yeah if anyone doesn’t pop shield or stun you with TD on them, than they are a bad player"

- In 1v1 with all cc´s available, yes. in a group vs group, not that easy.

 

"If you play Pyro it’s because you do a better job of watching yourself than you do your environment."

- It´s rally not that hard...

 

Don't ruin your reputation by trash talk

 

For the record, I enjoy both the NORSE and the full pyro specc=)

Edited May 26, 2012 by Greedy

[BlazingShadow]

For me, nothing AP offers will ever replace that "what just happened" look painted all over the enemy team's faces when their healer gets blind sided by the pyro rotation. Though maybe meltig the tank guarding that healer with PFT would come in a close second.

 

the difference between pyro and AP is the difference between

 

"What just happened?!" and "OH MY GOD I'M IN FRONT OF A MOVING TRAIN!"

Edited May 26, 2012 by BlazingShadow

[TheOpf]

I'm interested in trying AP Spec, I am currently Pyro.

 

Can you be specific on which attacks hit harder?

 

I tried AP once and noticed:

 

- railshot was about half the dmg (went from around 5.5k railshots to 3k-3.5k)

- retractable blade hits less than flame burst

- immolate hits less than thermal detonator

 

Which spec are you using? I would love to try again and see what happens.

 

You are comparing Retractable blade to Flame burst? why?

 

Immolate hits just as hard as TD on a geared player. They both hit between 3-4.5k on a similarly geared opponent. Most AP players rarely use RS so using it as a comparison is as similar as me comparing PFT to FT. It's not a valid comparison since Pyro should never use Flame Thrower.

 

Flame Burst hits significantly harder in AP than it does in Pyro.

Retractable Blade hits harder than IM.

Rocket Punch hits harder in AP than in Pyro when Crit.

 

The Burst people talk about with Pyro is the delay TD hitting at the same moment as RS.

[TheOpf]

For me, nothing AP offers will ever replace that "what just happened" look painted all over the enemy team's faces when their healer gets blind sided by the pyro rotation. Though maybe meltig the tank guarding that healer with PFT would come in a close second.

 

I love Pyro, and have no problems with how strong it is. My issue comes with the misinformation and ignorant statments stating that Pyro is so much better and stronger. It's not stronger it doesn't hit harder. It does the same damage differently. I like Pyro's 1/3rd health blow up, but it's not as kingly as people say it is. Pyro is similar to the Rage spec of Marauders/Juggernaughts. It's boom boom boom.

 

AP is more like the Vengeancee/Annihilation spec of Marauders. It's steady damage that always hits hard. Both are extremely viable. One requires a bit more awareness, while the other requires a bit more management of heat.

[TheOpf]

"AP hits harder on every single one of it’s hits than Pyro does"

what abilities? The two builds focuses different abilities. AP - FB, IMM and PFT. Pyro - TD and RS procs.

I don't see how you can say that AP hits harder on every single hit?

AP - Pyro

IMM < TD

FB > FB

RS < RS

RP > RP

 

Immolate and TD hit for the same against similarly geared people. TD has a better base damage, but Immolate scales better with it's built in buffs.

 

FB and RP are the two shared attacks, and FB hits significantly harder in AP than in Pyro. It's also the single most used attack from both specs. RP hits harder in AP on Crits.

 

 

It's just as easy to counter. RS proc isn't the scary part it's the TD/RS same time hit. The counter is the same - stun them.

 

"Pyro does 9 seconds of crap damage followed by RNG loving hard hitting damage back to crap."

-huh??

 

Sorry, I was using the same logic that several people have used for Pyro. Proclaiming that AP is weak because it's just steady damage, and Pyro has amazing burst. The problem is that Pyro outside of that Burst hits significantly less than AP. Maybe I went a bit overboard with the word crap.

 

"Yeah if anyone doesn’t pop shield or stun you with TD on them, than they are a bad player"

- In 1v1 with all cc´s available, yes. in a group vs group, not that easy.

 

This is the same argument I use with PFT, and yet you state that PFT is easily countered. TD and PFT are countered the same way.

 

"If you play Pyro it’s because you do a better job of watching yourself than you do your environment."

- It´s rally not that hard...

 

I am sorry what? If people are going to complain about AP being difficult because you have to channel it, than why can't I complain about having to monitor heat. It's the same complaint.

 

For the record I love Norse, and thoroughly enjoyed Pyro. What I don't like is the arguments against AP. They are ridiculous and when I turn them around on Pyro users, their replies are don't be stupid it's not that hard. Than why is the same complaint valid for AP.

 

AP Complaints are:

PFT is easily countered by stuns. Wow! Really, so is the big Pyro Burst.

PFT forces me to be stationary and channel which means I have to set it up. (It's not that hard has always been my reply). Wow, and Pyro forces me to use hammershot and watch my heat!!!! Argh so tough!

 

You see, the complaints can be switched, yet for some reason it's so much worse for AP than Pyro. Exphyrl and Dardack are the only two to reply with any response that makes sense.

 

"Pyro is better because in a group where we burst targets down the TD/RS combo can throw a healer off better than the steady power of AP."

 

That's it, that's the big difference. It's all preference. I can hit 500k plus as an AP with a good team. I can take a healer completely out of commission while my team kills the healers. You can't claim AP is bad for reasons that when applied to Pyro, you consider questionable.

 

That's my issue.

[Hethroin]

A pyro CCed mid rotation loses burst, a AP CCed mid rotation loses DPS. I think this is the AP PFT complaint. Your 5 stacks get used up even though you only got one tic of PFT out and got interrupted (CCed) after.

 

However when not CCed mid PFT the AP does hideous things to packs, while the pyro only hits one.

[Agooz]

It's not a valid comparison since Pyro should never use Flame Thrower.

 

As a Pyro, I use FT quite often actually.

[TheOpf]

As a Pyro, I use FT quite often actually.

 

Really, why? I like to interrupt Pyro/Assault who use it haha.

[Agooz]

Really, why? I like to interrupt Pyro/Assault who use it haha.

 

When a Pyro is after someone, no one thinks of interrupting. Either they just want to run away, or, in the case of a marauder just want to spam all their attacks at once. FT for a pyro is not part of a rotation, it is for specific situations, like in voidstar at the door, healer/tank together at 20% or below. 4-5 players grouped on a node, things like that.

[Greedy]

"PFT is easily countered by stuns. Wow! Really, so is the big Pyro Burst"

- The big difference here is that the pyros RS will still be available when the stun wears off, the PFT wont. So its more like a dps delay then a dps loss ;P

 

"This is the same argument I use with PFT, and yet you state that PFT is easily countered. TD and PFT are countered the same way."

- No, I said easier to counter then a RS proc. Mostly because the RS is instant cast vs PFT`s channeled cast. And if the PFT gets interrupted somehow, you need to start all over. RS will still be available when stun wears off. It was also meant as a counter on your "people that dont do this and that are bad players."

 

"I am sorry what? If people are going to complain about AP being difficult because you have to channel it, than why can't I complain about having to monitor heat. It's the same complaint."

- You say, "If you play Pyro it’s because you do a better job of watching yourself than you do your environment." meaning what? that pyros dont watch their surroundings? I do not have any problems keeping control of my heat and my surroundings.

 

"You can't claim AP is bad for reasons that when applied to Pyro, you consider questionable."

- I dont know if this were meant for me specific, or in general. Not once did I claim that AP was a bad specc, in fact I said I enjoy it. So were does all this rage come from ? AGAIN, I do NOT think AP is a bad specc.

[Akfourtys]

Both theOpf and Greedy are right in some point of view. It isnt hard to place yer pft properly to target at least two bodies, but skilled players are gonna just cc u in the way like ravage counter for maras. Not interruptable? Bleh. Okay, gonna save some cc next time.

And imo comparing pyro with proto isnt right at all. They are very different. Pyro is straight forward burst damage dealer, while proto is more like constant pressure damage type with movement imparing resistance.

Edited May 30, 2012 by Akfourtys

[TheOpf]

"PFT is easily countered by stuns. Wow! Really, so is the big Pyro Burst"

- The big difference here is that the pyros RS will still be available when the stun wears off, the PFT wont. So its more like a dps delay then a dps loss ;P

 

The burst isn't RS it's the RS/TD/RP/RS combo. The easiest way to counter a Pyro is to split that combo up. Granted there are only two classes - operatives/smugglers and guardians/juggernauts who have the stuns and capability to do it affectively. Unfortunately neither of those are really scary in 1v1 situations.

 

"This is the same argument I use with PFT, and yet you state that PFT is easily countered. TD and PFT are countered the same way."

- No, I said easier to counter then a RS proc. Mostly because the RS is instant cast vs PFT`s channeled cast. And if the PFT gets interrupted somehow, you need to start all over. RS will still be available when stun wears off. It was also meant as a counter on your "people that dont do this and that are bad players."

 

"I am sorry what? If people are going to complain about AP being difficult because you have to channel it, than why can't I complain about having to monitor heat. It's the same complaint."

- You say, "If you play Pyro it’s because you do a better job of watching yourself than you do your environment." meaning what? that pyros dont watch their surroundings? I do not have any problems keeping control of my heat and my surroundings.

 

I apologize I was being sardonic, and it came across as though I personally think people are bad if they don't do it. I was using the statements made against AP by many of those who post (not you) against Pyro. I like Pyro and ran it last night for fun. I still prefer AP, because I don't like RNG and watching my character's bar.

 

I did not mean Pyro's don't watch their surrounding, just that a majority of your focus is on your bar for procs and heat, and not on your environment. Nor does your environment and surrounding mean as much as they do to AP/Tactics, simply because your damage is easily accessed and less of a setup.

 

"You can't claim AP is bad for reasons that when applied to Pyro, you consider questionable."

- I dont know if this were meant for me specific, or in general. Not once did I claim that AP was a bad specc, in fact I said I enjoy it. So were does all this rage come from ? AGAIN, I do NOT think AP is a bad specc.

 

General comment not meant for you. I am not angry, just frustrated at the lack of common sense by one of the most helpful and organized communities. It seems like we lost our minds and all went pyro crazy again and dropped our logic along the way.

 

To be clear, I played Pyro for my raid last night just to beat all of our Rakata geared dps in dps and total damage. I almost always play AP, but in EV and Denova the constant movements required make Pyro a little easier to burst out the damage. I still prefer AP's playstyle, but I can top the meters with Pyro, and run a close second as AP.

 

On Soa, I was 8 percent ahead of our ranged dps as Pyro. As AP, I am usually 4 percent ahead or tied. I am the least geared dps on our team. I have 3 piece Rakata, everything else is Columni or Battlemaster ;p.

[Jewa_taken]

I know this is a PVP discussion but was reminded of it after saturdays EV HM.

Me (pyro) and my AP guildie (norse) each took a mara.

After uploading the logs: he outdamaged me with exactly 1 (one) dps!

 

Also, part of what I like the most about the pyro is when you get the buffed TD+RS/RP/RS off and see the guy jump with surprise/fear but I also had my guildie jumping up and down with happiness after a VS recently.

We took out their entire team -1 and tagged a door. So when the shield at their respawn went down, 7 of them came running to the door, all at once, in one nicely packed group.

 

Guess who was waiting with a fully stacked PFT?