DimeStax Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 (edited) This is completely true except for one little thing. Every Slinger/Sniper I see gets a Corrosive dart, I can usually spare the GCD and the energy and they can't do anything about it. the extra bonus is it hands me back some energy off Lethal Purpose ticks. Apart from that, I actually agree with you that MM snipers get way too much of a bad rap for PVP. Less mobile does not mean - can't move at all, and because they don;t rely on DoTs for their damage at all, they actually get better mileage from legshot, flashbang and coverpulse because they have complete control over when they break them themselves. A MM sniper can leg shot, then take the time to probe->ambush->FT->laze->Instasnipe and all of that damage lands basically the same time that in takes to cull - and the MM sniper will not break the himself root before the ambush lands, and he can then throw a flashbang and get the entire duration of the mezz to work with with no risk of breaking it himself until he chooses to. If the MM sniper starts with a cover pulse it's even better because he knocks the target back with the ambush, and can follow with a leg shot instead of flashbang. I was eng/leth pre 1.2 and I've been Leth since 1.2 but I've played around with heavier MM builds and it's obvious to me that tweaking MM to make it more viable is a very difficult balancing act because it would be very easy for MM to become OP - at the moment the real problem with MM is that it's too easily mitigated. Everything you said is true. One of the biggest drawbacks a DF Gunslinger has is that our DoTs break all our CC early. It makes using CC more challenging as preperation and consideration are needed before we use our CC: we can't exactly just throw our CC's around like a MM Sniper usually can (not taking in consideration the noobs that randomly break your CC). I agree that the biggest drawback is that it's far too mitigated, and maybe the fact that they lack a snare. Even a short duration snare would work: Something like after Leg Shot ends the target is snared for 3-4 seconds or something. They need some kind of movement increasing or decreasing ability to make them not just killers but also competitors in matches. Edited May 25, 2012 by DimeStax Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Husanak Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 SNIP - at the moment the real problem with MM is that it's too easily mitigated. Indeed it is nice to run the extra yellow dmg you get in the other trees. I mainly play MM and love it... you do have to choose your targets though. DOT and AOE trees are a bit more target friendly in that they work fairly equal against pretty much every other class. MM is lots of white dmg... of course when you land right on the right target, it is the fastest single target kill tree. As far as going from first engage to dead anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justntrue Posted May 25, 2012 Author Share Posted May 25, 2012 Some interesting discussion here a few days later. I've read through all the posts and I appreciate the feedback. I've given some thought to trying the sab spec, and I will do give it a shot just because I like experimenting and the SS tree is feeling a little stale. I agree with some of the posters who suggest that SS tree is easiest to play, but, I think that it's conditional. A noob playing SS can still pump out decent damage, but, a noob won't be nearly as effective as someone who understands the benfit of area control, and support CC. Therefore, yes, SS tree is easy to play and still produce damage, but, the skill cap is not low, and, the potential for this class is significantly higher than many people give credit for. I, for example, am usually a marked target in warzones where we play the better premades. They know I am a brutal damage dealer, I pressure the F*** out of their operative healers, and, I usually will take them out of the fight by maintaining trauma and heavy bursty DPS. That combined with fairly strong area control means I am usually one of the first targets in denova coast and civil war. Anyway, some interesting discussion on utility of different trees, and this is certainly something that I will have to explore on my own. I'm excited to try a more mobile build as the whole cover and spam damage thing is kinda old. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Altruismo Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 I agree that the biggest drawback is that it's far too mitigated, and maybe the fact that they lack a snare. The Snare issue is clearly deliberate, and it's part of the attempt to keep snipers from becoming OP (I personally think that they are too careful about this in general). The reason our snares are all attached to DoTs is so they break our roots and our mezz. At the moment, MM basically gets better (longer lasting) roots and mezz, at the cost of no snare. Leth and Eng get snares, but at the cost of root and mezz duration. You and I both know we'd like the best of both worlds - snares that don't break our roots - and if we're honest with ourselves we both know why we want them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DimeStax Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 (edited) The Snare issue is clearly deliberate, and it's part of the attempt to keep snipers from becoming OP (I personally think that they are too careful about this in general). The reason our snares are all attached to DoTs is so they break our roots and our mezz. At the moment, MM basically gets better (longer lasting) roots and mezz, at the cost of no snare. Leth and Eng get snares, but at the cost of root and mezz duration. You and I both know we'd like the best of both worlds - snares that don't break our roots - and if we're honest with ourselves we both know why we want them. I don't think a short duration snare will be overpowered. First off you can sort of hybrid SS/Sab spec into the 18 second single target snare right now if you want to sacrifice some of the upper tier MM points, and having the single target 18 second snare isn't overpowered at all. Also, Look at Sages and Sorcs, they have a couple of ranged snares as well as a snare on their channeled lightening as well as their AOE lightening storm, and they are even more mobile than MM Snipers. I don't think you can go wrong with a short duration snare on one of our attacks. I at least think they should put a snare on our Speedshot attack... and if you think about it from a roleplay standpoint it kind of makes sense that you would be snared while a series of shots is hitting you the same way you would be snared if a flurry of rocks from a sage is pelting you. I would be satisfied with the MM tree with a couple more viable tech attacks in our rotation, and some kind of snare... even if it's just on Speedshot. They have to be able to do SOMETHING about that line of sight. If not they should make them slightly more mobile; perhaps by making their energy regeneration not only dependent on being in cover, some kind of half hybrid regeneration combo where you get half while mobile and it doubles when you take cover. The biggest challenge for Snipers right now is being able to secure a kill on a high priority well played target before it LoS's and you have to change targets. So honestly, Snipers get outplayed because of their inability to deal with walls, poles, and obstacles as well as other classes. Edited May 25, 2012 by DimeStax Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Altruismo Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 (edited) I don't think a short duration snare will be overpowered. First off you can sort of hybrid SS/Sab spec into the 18 second single target snare right now if you want to sacrifice some of the upper tier MM points, and having the single target 18 second snare isn't overpowered at all. Also, Look at Sages and Sorcs, they have a couple of ranged snares as well as a snare on their channeled lightening as well as their AOE lightening storm, and they are even more mobile than MM Snipers. I don't think you can go wrong with a short duration snare on one of our attacks. I at least think they should put a snare on our Speedshot attack... and if you think about it from a roleplay standpoint it kind of makes sense that you would be snared while a series of shots is hitting you the same way you would be snared if a flurry of rocks from a sage is pelting you. Oh, I agree you can make some pretty viable MM hybrids which get access to a lot of MM goodies and IP for example, but the snare breaks the DoTs, like I said. Edit: not DoTs, roots But I think adding a snare to a 31 point MM build is a dangerous move because it potentially puts inescapable Rapid Fire SOS+SOS+SOS on the table as an "on demand" option. The comparison to sages/sorcs with respect to snares from range isn't quite fair because they are not uninteruptable and unchargeable I would be satisfied with the MM tree with a couple more viable tech attacks in our rotation, and some kind of snare... even if it's just on Speedshot. They have to be able to do SOMETHING about that line of sight. If not they should make them slightly more mobile; perhaps by making their energy regeneration not only dependent on being in cover, some kind of half hybrid regeneration combo where you get half while mobile and it doubles when you take cover. I personally think it would be nice if the MM tree converted some of the Ranged/Energy damage into Tech/Internal, I've also said before that I think a +5m to tech range talent (placed too high for heavy Eng/Leth hybrids to access), and maybe some better armour penetration (hybrid accessible). I think the dependancy on cover is good to stay, but they need to stop balancing "in cover" powers around being uninteruptable and then seemingly simultaneously forgetting that you're also rooted. The biggest challenge for Snipers right now is being able to secure a kill on a high priority well played target before it LoS's and you have to change targets. So honestly, Snipers get outplayed because of their inability to deal with walls, poles, and obstacles as well as other classes. My number one gripe about LOS for snipers is that sometimes my own cover blocks LOS. Shoot dude BAM BAM, crouch -> LOS blocked. Stand up again BAM BAM, crouch -> LOS blocked. For the love of god, calculate my line of sight from my position as if I were standing at all times. Edited May 25, 2012 by Altruismo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DimeStax Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 (edited) ...... Edited May 25, 2012 by DimeStax Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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