slinger/sniper weakness

[IamScarap]

Btw basic sharpshooter is utter **** in PvP

 

Bollocks. Absolute Bollocks. Sharp Shooter is a great spec for PVP, providing a lot of on demand burst which lets you take down single targets like healers very well. It's been a long misconception that Sharp Shooter was only good for PVE, and that Dirty Fighting is the PVP spec, but it's absolutely untrue.

[Kllashaa]

Yup. I used to play Engi/Leth, but all the various 31pt and hybrid specs are completely legitimate for PVP (though I'd argue that SS/Sab is better than 31pt SS). You're more lethal against light and medium armor targets as SS/Sab, but not quite as good against tanks. It's still a fantastic PVP spec. The only thing I don't like is the lack of utility in Huttball, so I spend most of my time controlling mid. Edited May 24, 2012 by Kllashaa

[DimeStax]

All about good positioning, and yes, switching targets when you can't take someone down. Sometimes it's about having a good hard cover spot to roll into for a readjust in positioning, or simply about knowing where your teammates are and CC'ing / buying time accordingly.

 

 

 

At the time when Pyro was nerfed, there were quite a few equally viable and popular PT specs. 1.2 killed a couple of them, buffed a couple of others, but when all is said and done, Pyro is on top. It has nothing to do w/ its damage being "overpowered", since AP is pretty competitive w/ Pyro right now DPS-wise, and has been since 1.2. It actually boasts the heaviest hitting attack of all 3 PT specs (much like Lethality's Cull), but it requires a long setup.

 

What you're REALLY talking about is sustained damage + utility vs. burst damage, which is exactly what's being discussed in this thread.

 

It's obvious that people chose to go w/ the BURST damage and less utility, because burst is what kills people. Long setups that lead to big damage are great in theory, but they have weaknesses of their own (such as the inability to quickly switch targets) or the ability to completely counter the damage combo and negate not only all of that time and energy, but your chances to kill them as well.

 

We can agree to disagree on which is "better", as I think they both fill their own niche, and enjoy both playstyles thoroughly.

 

I'll agree to disagree with you about which spec we think is best, however my point has absolutely nothing to do with sustained DPS vs Burst DPS. As I believe I have already pointed out all three specs have great burst DPS and all three require setup time to begin bursting. Even in Sharpshooter spec you're still going to use Charged Burst first because it's instant and then probably follow up with a Speedshot to hopefully get a proc that reduces the cast time of your Aimed Shot by 1 second, and then you're goiing to start getting into your burst rotation which is Aimed Shot>Sabotage Charge>Trick Shot. Dirty Fight has a similar setup except were going to use Vital shot>shrap grenade>hemorrhaging blast>wounding shots. All of our setup is instant cast however, but most of our burst comes from our channeled wounding shots/cull.

 

Furthermore if you are sayin that PT pyros damage isn't overpowered and it is comparable to AP DPS wise, then why do you think it is the best spec overall right now? Either it has better DPS or it has better utility in PVP no matter what you say you've pretty much proved me right.

[Varicite]

IFurthermore if you are sayin that PT pyros damage isn't overpowered and it is comparable to AP DPS wise, then why do you think it is the best spec overall right now? Either it has better DPS or it has better utility in PVP no matter what you say you've pretty much proved me right.

 

I'm not sure what is hard to understand about this.

 

AP and Pyro have similar DPS. Pyro does burst damage and lacks utility. AP does channeled damage and has the most utility of all 3 specs.

 

Pyro has very short setup (Grenade > Incendiary > Rail Shot) before going into its burst.

 

AP has a longer setup (Flame Burst / Immolate x5), but it has incredible mobility via higher running speed, a physics-ignoring sprint on 30 sec cd, 2 snares (one is a channeled AoE that does more damage than anything else in a PT's arsenal on a 15 sec cd).

 

You say it has to have better utility or better dps, but it's not true, which is why I said it in the first place. They have similar DPS, AP has better utility, Pyro provides better BURST.

 

Like I said, it's a debate over sustained damage vs burst damage, because overall DPS is very similar. The only difference is in the manner it's delivered (back-to-back Rail Shots vs channeled Flamethrower).

 

Pretty much exactly like MM's ability to drop into Cover and immediately start doing damage w/out any setup, unlike Lethality. Lethality has mobility and is great for killing tanks, but is poor at switching targets and requires 3-4 seconds of setup before they can even begin to start doing any kind of actual damage.

 

Just like the AP PT example, all the mobility and utility in the world isn't all that if you don't have the ability to simply drop a target when necessary as a DPS. With TTK as low as it's become, it's really far easier to survive simply by eliminating threats than by neutralizing them via utility.

 

At least for classes like Sniper or Powertech. : )

Edited May 24, 2012 by Varicite

[DimeStax]

I'm not sure what is hard to understand about this.

 

AP and Pyro have similar DPS. Pyro does burst damage and lacks utility. AP does channeled damage and has the most utility of all 3 specs.

 

Pyro has very short setup (Grenade > Incendiary > Rail Shot) before going into its burst.

 

AP has a longer setup (Flame Burst / Immolate x5), but it has incredible mobility via higher running speed, a physics-ignoring sprint on 30 sec cd, 2 snares (one is a channeled AoE that does more damage than anything else in a PT's arsenal).

 

You say it has to have better utility or better dps, but it's not true, which is why I said it in the first place. They have similar DPS, AP has better utility, Pyro provides better BURST.

 

Like I said, it's a debate over sustained damage vs burst damage, because overall DPS is very similar. The only difference is in the manner it's delivered (back-to-back Rail Shots vs channeled Flamethrower).

 

Pretty much exactly like MM's ability to drop into Cover and immediately start doing damage w/out any setup, unlike Lethality. Lethality has mobility and is great for killing tanks, but is poor at switching targets and requires 3-4 seconds of setup before they can even begin to start doing any kind of actual damage.

 

Just like the AP PT example, all the mobility and utility in the world isn't all that if you don't have the ability to simply drop a target when necessary as a DPS. With TTK as low as it's become, it's really far easier to survive simply by eliminating threats than by neutralizing them via utility.

 

At least for classes like Sniper or Powertech. : )

 

Like I said before: I you're not switching targets frequently as a Lethiality sniper, you're doing it wrong. I don't know what makes u think we're bad at switching targets when we switch targets way more than any of our other specs. You say it takes 3-4 seconds before we do any REAL damage. What is real damage to you? We still have Speed Shot and Sabotage Grenade to open up hard with. ALSO as I mentioned above you're not just popping cover and immediately going into burst mode. Charged Burst IS NOT anywhere close to being a burst ability. You still hve to setup your aimed shot to sabotage grenade and trickshot combo with charged burst and speed shot. It's roughly the same amount of time as I takes us to get to our burst abilities too.

 

You're saying that PT Pyros spec is better than Ap spec for dps simply because one has front end burst while the other has back end burst that requires setup. If that were true I could argue that backed burst is actually better than front end buds since it ensures you get the kill on the target from 50% hp to 0% rather than taking your target from 100% to 40% with front end damage.

 

No, PT pyros are the best spec in the game right because the spec is broken and over powered. No one can touch a well played and well geared PT pyros dps in the game right now, not even another PT in a different spec.

[vimm]

It's very amusing how clueless people are about sniper/gunslinger - another advantage.

[DimeStax]

Changes are being made specifically to the MM/SS tree in 1.3. That should give you a hint that it's not performing on par with the other trees.

[Varicite]

Like I said before: I you're not switching targets frequently as a Lethiality sniper, you're doing it wrong. I don't know what makes u think we're bad at switching targets when we switch targets way more than any of our other specs. You say it takes 3-4 seconds before we do any REAL damage. What is real damage to you? We still have Speed Shot and Sabotage Grenade to open up hard with. ALSO as I mentioned above you're not just popping cover and immediately going into burst mode. Charged Burst IS NOT anywhere close to being a burst ability. You still hve to setup your aimed shot to sabotage grenade and trickshot combo with charged burst and speed shot. It's roughly the same amount of time as I takes us to get to our burst abilities too.

 

You're saying that PT Pyros spec is better than Ap spec for dps simply because one has front end burst while the other has back end burst that requires setup. If that were true I could argue that backed burst is actually better than front end buds since it ensures you get the kill on the target from 50% hp to 0% rather than taking your target from 100% to 40% with front end damage.

 

No, PT pyros are the best spec in the game right because the spec is broken and over powered. No one can touch a well played and well geared PT pyros dps in the game right now, not even another PT in a different spec.

 

Oh, I see, you must also have a BM Pyro that you've played the other DPS spec extensively w/, and so obviously know what you're talking about. My bad. Sarcasm aside, I'm going to let that analogy drop, as you really just can't seem to understand that the 2 specs actually do have similar DPS numbers.

 

And while Snipe > Followthrough (3k~ usually in my terrible gear) before going into a rotation might not be "bursty" to you, I can assure you it's a HECK of a lot more up front damage than Corrosive Grenade > Corrosive Dart is doing at the start of a fight.

 

You can't really talk about Exp. Probe > SoS opener, as both specs can easily accomplish that, and let's be honest here: MM's version of that combo is far more powerful, and almost guarantees yet another 1.5 sec Ambush afterward which can again be chained into an instant Snipe, etc.

 

Setup burst is PREDICTABLE, and thus very easily avoided in most cases.

[Altruismo]

You're basically saying do something clever and then may be you win,

 

No, he's not.

He just listed Mara vs sniper basics 101.

As in, if you can do what he said when he said, you've got all the "clever" that a sniper can throw back at you covered, and you've still got a few tricks up your sleeve.

Mara vs sniper is: "when sniper does A, you can do B, or C, or D"

Sniper vs Mara is: "When he does A, do B, unless you already did C, or he did E, then think about Z, and make sure you don't do X".

The major difference is if a Mara just starts mashing buttons at a Sniper, he's just being a bad player and does some damage to the Sniper, but if a sniper just starts mashing buttons at a Mara, he's outright doing it wrong, handing the Mara a full resolve bar and keeping his Cloak of Pain up.

[DimeStax]

Oh, I see, you must also have a BM Pyro that you've played the other DPS spec extensively w/, and so obviously know what you're talking about. My bad. Sarcasm aside, I'm going to let that analogy drop, as you really just can't seem to understand that the 2 specs actually do have similar DPS numbers.

 

And while Snipe > Followthrough (3k~ usually in my terrible gear) before going into a rotation might not be "bursty" to you, I can assure you it's a HECK of a lot more up front damage than Corrosive Grenade > Corrosive Dart is doing at the start of a fight.

 

You can't really talk about Exp. Probe > SoS opener, as both specs can easily accomplish that, and let's be honest here: MM's version of that combo is far more powerful, and almost guarantees yet another 1.5 sec Ambush afterward which can again be chained into an instant Snipe, etc.

 

Setup burst is PREDICTABLE, and thus very easily avoided in most cases.

 

Lol if Lethiality and Dirty Fighting setup burst is so "PREDICTABLE" and easy to avoid, why is it that it's the MM/SS Gunslingers and Snipers complaining about LoS and not the Lethiality and Dirty Fighting ones? In fact it's MM/SS Slingers/Snipers whose damage is easy to avoid with LoS or any defensive cooldown in the game that cancels out white damage, but instead as a Dirty Fighting/Lethiality spec, you can LoS or pop white damage defensive cooldowns all you want but you're still taking some serious DoT damage. On top of that, the entire time you're fighting me you're SNARED. Do you have any idea how hard it is to fight a sniper at range if you're SNARED. It makes a HUGE difference. SS/MM have no snares whatsoever. It's a joke how easy it is to break LoS from them. The reason I love Dirty Fighting spec so much is that their damage is HARD to avoid and is never completely canceled out by defensive abilities.

 

And you're right; a 3k~ Snipe>Followthrough white damage is not bursty at all. While you may think you're doing more damage with that combo, I'm dotting up 4-5 people in the area around me with Vital Shots and Shrap Bombs, which does about 3k~ INTERNAL damage per Vital shot (not including DoT double ticks, crits, or the extension on it after it reapplies itself), and another 2k~ INTERNAL damage per Shrap Bomb applied (not including dot crits, double ticks, or the reapplication). When Hemorrhaging Blast is applied or the target drops below 30% hp, my DoT's are ticking away for 400-600 hp a tick on a BM geared target. You can keep your 3k~ opener, and I'll keep the silent damage that turns into beast mode burst damage when I trigger my DoTs with Hemorrhaging Blast and Wounding Shots and continues to kill you even if you think you got away.

 

Also, I know that Pyro PTs don't have the same damage numbers in PvP as AP specced PT's because I play right beside two of the best geared and played Vanguard Specialists on the server, and I play against some of the meanest Pyro PT's out there. I don't have first hand experience playing the spec but I trust their knowledge and I trust what I see in warzones. Pyro PT's damage is absolutely ridiculous right now.

 

Like I said above bro:

Changes are being made specifically to the MM/SS tree in 1.3. That should give you a hint that it's not performing on par with the other trees.

Edited May 24, 2012 by DimeStax

[IamScarap]

Yup. I used to play Engi/Leth, but all the various 31pt and hybrid specs are completely legitimate for PVP (though I'd argue that SS/Sab is better than 31pt SS). You're more lethal against light and medium armor targets as SS/Sab, but not quite as good against tanks. It's still a fantastic PVP spec. The only thing I don't like is the lack of utility in Huttball, so I spend most of my time controlling mid.

 

Rapid Fire is such a fantastic ability though, chaining Speed Shots can take a lot out of someone and really messes with a Sorc or a Sage when they try to heal, not to mention you can almost always follow up with a 1.5 Aimed Shot.

[Invictusthetaru]

Lol if Lethiality and Dirty Fighting setup burst is so "PREDICTABLE" and easy to avoid, why is it that it's the MM/SS Gunslingers and Snipers complaining about LoS and not the Lethiality and Dirty Fighting ones? In fact it's MM/SS Slingers/Snipers whose damage is easy to avoid with LoS or any defensive cooldown in the game that cancels out white damage, but instead as a Dirty Fighting/Lethiality spec, you can LoS or pop white damage defensive cooldowns all you want but you're still taking some serious DoT damage. On top of that, the entire time you're fighting me you're SNARED. Do you have any idea how hard it is to fight a sniper at range if you're SNARED. It makes a HUGE difference. SS/MM have no snares whatsoever. It's a joke how easy it is to break LoS from them. The reason I love Dirty Fighting spec so much is that their damage is HARD to avoid and is never completely canceled out by defensive abilities.

 

And you're right; a 3k~ Snipe>Followthrough white damage is not bursty at all. While you may think you're doing more damage with that combo, I'm dotting up 4-5 people in the area around me with Vital Shots and Shrap Bombs, which does about 3k~ INTERNAL damage per Vital shot (not including DoT double ticks, crits, or the extension on it after it reapplies itself), and another 2k~ INTERNAL damage per Shrap Bomb applied (not including dot crits, double ticks, or the reapplication). When Hemorrhaging Blast is applied or the target drops below 30% hp, my DoT's are ticking away for 400-600 hp a tick on a BM geared target. You can keep your 3k~ opener, and I'll keep the silent damage that turns into beast mode burst damage when I trigger my DoTs with Hemorrhaging Blast and Wounding Shots and continues to kill you even if you think you got away.

 

Also, I know that Pyro PTs don't have the same damage numbers in PvP as AP specced PT's because I play right beside two of the best geared and played Vanguard Specialists on the server, and I play against some of the meanest Pyro PT's out there. I don't have first hand experience playing the spec but I trust their knowledge and I trust what I see in warzones. Pyro PT's damage is absolutely ridiculous right now.

 

Like I said above bro:

 

That's why most go SS/sab or full sab. SS/sab gets a single target dot snare and sab gets an AOE and a single target dot snare. Not to mention your dot can stun a person for 2 seconds if they are in your aoe snare, which is amazing because the thing I always wish I had was a single target ranged stun.

 

Loving slinger so far, fun class.

[DimeStax]

That's why most go SS/sab or full sab. SS/sab gets a single target dot snare and sab gets an AOE and a single target dot snare. Not to mention your dot can stun a person for 2 seconds if they are in your aoe snare, which is amazing because the thing I always wish I had was a single target ranged stun.

 

Loving slinger so far, fun class.

 

Yeah, my post was mainly for the person I quoted in it who thinks that SS/MM build is the best PvP build for Slingers/Snipers.

Edited May 24, 2012 by DimeStax

[Varicite]

Also, I know that Pyro PTs don't have the same damage numbers in PvP as AP specced PT's because I play right beside two of the best geared and played Vanguard Specialists on the server, and I play against some of the meanest Pyro PT's out there. I don't have first hand experience playing the spec but I trust their knowledge and I trust what I see in warzones. Pyro PT's damage is absolutely ridiculous right now.

 

No offense, but this doesn't make any sort of sense at all. You know that AP spec'd PT's don't have the same damage numbers in PvP as Pyro because you play w/ the Pyro version of Vanguard?

 

I'm sorry, what?

 

I wonder if you have any idea that Pyro PT's damage is actually lower right now than it used to be, and it still wasn't "OP" even before 1.2, because unlike the other 2 alpha specs, Pyros actually do go down hard and fast when focused.

 

Also, there are OTHER reasons which you are obviously refusing to take into account for why AP trails Pyro's damage IN PVP. One of those reasons is that its major damage combo takes setup and can be denied by smart players. Back to topic:

 

I'm not sure if you noticed this, but Snipe > Followthrough are both instant. Exp. Probe is also instant, followed by a 1.5 Ambush into the rest of the combo.

 

Your openers are also instant, but Cull is a channel and requires that you have to be immobile for JUST AS LONG as a MM Sniper in order to get its damage off. Oh and you'll probably be in Cover to use it, unless you want your long channel to get interrupted.

 

It's very easy to predict: MM doesn't use poisons. Poisons = Lethality. Lethality = Cull. Interrupt / KB / LoS Cull = lol.

 

Bad MM Snipers complain about LoS, maybe. The rest of us just make sure to set up in a good position, and have a plan of action to continue pumping damage on the move if we need to relocate.

 

Also, the lack of snare is really not all that hard to adjust around; 30% is like nothing in the world of snares for this game and it lasts for a whopping 6 seconds. LoL.

 

Also, MM brings Diversion, which is SEVERELY underrated when it comes to defensive cds.

[Invictusthetaru]

Yeah, my post was mainly for the person I quoted in it who thinks that SS/MM build is the best PvP build for Slingers/Snipers.

 

Yeah as far as utility and damage it gets beat by both of the other specs IMO. All specs are viable in PVP though, which is why I like slinger. For example, if the other team had a good operative healer, an MM/SS slinger would destroy a dirty fighting one because of the cleanse.

 

The scoundrel in my old premade was literally laughing off this snipers damage as he dotted him up and preceded to cull and nothing was happening. On vent he we just told him when the sniper was targeting us and we all got our dots removed. That kind of team play can kill DF.

[Varicite]

Yeah, my post was mainly for the person I quoted in it who thinks that SS/MM build is the best PvP build for Slingers/Snipers.

 

We can agree to disagree on which is "better", as I think they both fill their own niche, and enjoy both playstyles thoroughly.

 

I'd love for you to point out any part at all where I said that ANY spec was the "best PvP build".

 

I think they are all viable. I was arguing on behalf of MM/SS, because it fills a completely different niche than the other spec, and is still quite valid. I didn't realize you had such qualms w/ me enjoying a spec other than Lethality, or being willing to talk about its merits. I can do the same thing for Lethality as well (and have in this very same thread).

 

Someone said that Utility is all that matters and damage doesn't count for much in PvP when specs are doing similar DPS. I said that the TYPE of damage you are doing matters in PvP, and went on to point out that burst damage drops people, while sustained damage can easily be healed through.

 

I used Pyro's burst vs. AP's sustained damage as an example. I was told that Pyro damage is just OP, even though I know that AP and Pyro parse pretty close to each other, and the difference in DPS is the delivery method.

 

If you're trying to argue w/ me because you think that I feel MM is the "best PvP build" and think you may be on the verge of winning, good luck w/ that. I'm still experimenting before I make that judgment call, but I personally think that MM / Engi (31/8/2) looks the best for my own playstyle, as I'm used to the lack of snare.

Edited May 24, 2012 by Varicite

[DimeStax]

No offense, but this doesn't make any sort of sense at all. You know that AP spec'd PT's don't have the same damage numbers in PvP as Pyro because you play w/ the Pyro version of Vanguard?

 

I'm sorry, what?

 

I wonder if you have any idea that Pyro PT's damage is actually lower right now than it used to be, and it still wasn't "OP" even before 1.2, because unlike the other 2 alpha specs, Pyros actually do go down hard and fast when focused.

 

Also, there are OTHER reasons which you are obviously refusing to take into account for why AP trails Pyro's damage IN PVP. One of those reasons is that its major damage combo takes setup and can be denied by smart players. Back to topic:

 

I'm not sure if you noticed this, but Snipe > Followthrough are both instant. Exp. Probe is also instant, followed by a 1.5 Ambush into the rest of the combo.

 

Your openers are also instant, but Cull is a channel and requires that you have to be immobile for JUST AS LONG as a MM Sniper in order to get its damage off. Oh and you'll probably be in Cover to use it, unless you want your long channel to get interrupted.

 

It's very easy to predict: MM doesn't use poisons. Poisons = Lethality. Lethality = Cull. Interrupt / KB / LoS Cull = lol.

 

Bad MM Snipers complain about LoS, maybe. The rest of us just make sure to set up in a good position, and have a plan of action to continue pumping damage on the move if we need to relocate.

 

Also, the lack of snare is really not all that hard to adjust around; 30% is like nothing in the world of snares for this game and it lasts for a whopping 6 seconds. LoL.

 

Also, MM brings Diversion, which is SEVERELY underrated when it comes to defensive cds.

 

Um, the snare is 18 seconds, not 6 and only two of our abilities are channeled, speed shot and wounding shot. We're in cover when we use those two abilities however the rest of the time we're moving around using instant cast abilities.

 

Another thing you have also failed to realize is that Cull is 3 seconds channeled time. Leg Shot is a 2 second root if damaged while afflicted. Unless the target is RIGHT next to a pole he can hump, I can easily Leg Shot > Cull and he'll pretty much always take the full damage, not to mention when Leg Shot ends the target is still snared 30%. That's definitely NOT as long as an MM sniper needs to be standing still in place to use their rotation. MM snipers have to be in cover to use EVERYTHING they use and they get no form of energy regeneration out of cover, so moving is pretty terrible for them unless they need to to reposition because it just slows down their DPS and wastes energy.

 

I don't even know how an MM sniper is trying to compare LoS issues with a Dirty Fighting Gunslinger anyway, there really is no comparison. DF Gunslingers have no LoS issues whatsoever, and even if you DO make it around the corner you're still dotted anyway. As a DF Gunslinger fighting MM Snipers is a joke. I can pole hump all day, pop my head out to cast my instant cast spells every global cooldown, and once they're DoTTed up I just run out and pop Wounding Shot's and they're so far behind the fight already they can't keep up DPS with me. If the fight goes unexpected, I'll just pole hump again while they're DoTTed and they can't do anything about it. It's kinda pathetic really.

[Invictusthetaru]

The actual snare only lasts 6 seconds actually, it's in the feeling woozy description. Edited May 24, 2012 by Invictusthetaru

[Varicite]

Um, the snare is 18 seconds, not 6 and only two of our abilities are channeled, speed shot and wounding shot. We're in cover when we use those two abilities however the rest of the time we're moving around using instant cast abilities.

 

Another thing you have also failed to realize is that Cull is 3 seconds channeled time. Leg Shot is a 2 second root if damaged while afflicted. Unless the target is RIGHT next to a pole he can hump, I can easily Leg Shot > Cull and he'll pretty much always take the full damage, not to mention when Leg Shot ends the target is still snared 30%. That's definitely NOT as long as an MM sniper needs to be standing still in place to use their rotation. MM snipers have to be in cover to use EVERYTHING they use and they get no form of energy regeneration out of cover, so moving is pretty terrible for them unless they need to to reposition because it just slows down their DPS and wastes energy.

 

I don't even know how an MM sniper is trying to compare LoS issues with a Dirty Fighting Gunslinger anyway, there really is no comparison. DF Gunslingers have no LoS issues whatsoever, and even if you DO make it around the corner you're still dotted anyway. As a DF Gunslinger fighting MM Snipers is a joke. I can pole hump all day, pop my head out to cast my instant cast spells every global cooldown, and once they're DoTTed up I just run out and pop Wounding Shot's and they're so far behind the fight already they can't keep up DPS with me. If the fight goes unexpected, I'll just pole hump again while they're DoTTed and they can't do anything about it. It's kinda pathetic really.

 

1) MM does not need to be in Cover to use everything in their arsenal. You can drop into Cover for the Snipe and fire the Followthrough and Shatter Shot while moving while tossing off a Rifle Shot in between before you either rinse and repeat or use any of the other Agent/Sniper abilities that MM doesn't suddenly just lose access to.

 

2) I'm not sure what makes you think that you can Leg Shot > Cull, but MM can't Leg Shot > Ambush.

 

3) I can only assume you have no idea what the talent Sniper Volley does. MM snipers are generally leaving Cover every 6 seconds or so, both for refreshing Ballistic Dampers and for regaining the instant Snipe.

 

4) DoTs are not all that much damage. You still need LoS on your target to actually kill them.

 

5) You still need to drop into Cover if you don't want your Cull interrupted or get leapt on by Warrior ACs. You are slightly more mobile, but you depend on a 3 second channel for your main damage, which exposes you to all the same issues as every other ranged class. LoS included.

 

6) I don't fight Lethal snipers that are hanging out directly beside a pole. That's just stupid. Just like you wouldn't fight me in an open field. That would also be stupid. BTW, Snipers/Slingers are almost never each other's priority targets, unless higher priorities are dead or you just feel like waving your e-wang around.

 

7) Also, Diversion makes MM > other specs of Sniper in a mirror match. Sorry guys.

Edited May 25, 2012 by Varicite

[DimeStax]

I'd love for you to point out any part at all where I said that ANY spec was the "best PvP build".

 

I think they are all viable. I was arguing on behalf of MM/SS, because it fills a completely different niche than the other spec, and is still quite valid. I didn't realize you had such qualms w/ me enjoying a spec other than Lethality, or being willing to talk about its merits. I can do the same thing for Lethality as well (and have in this very same thread).

 

Someone said that Utility is all that matters and damage doesn't count for much in PvP when specs are doing similar DPS. I said that the TYPE of damage you are doing matters in PvP, and went on to point out that burst damage drops people, while sustained damage can easily be healed through.

 

I used Pyro's burst vs. AP's sustained damage as an example. I was told that Pyro damage is just OP, even though I know that AP and Pyro parse pretty close to each other, and the difference in DPS is the delivery method.

 

If you're trying to argue w/ me because you think that I feel MM is the "best PvP build" and think you may be on the verge of winning, good luck w/ that. I'm still experimenting before I make that judgment call, but I personally think that MM / Engi (31/8/2) looks the best for my own playstyle, as I'm used to the lack of snare.

 

I never said utility was all that mattered, I said that utility was extremely important when evaluating two different PvP specs with comparable DPS, ex: Snipers and Slingers. Snipers and Slingers have three DPS trees with great sustained dps AND great burst dps, therefore the utility within the trees make the difference in determining which is better suited for PvP.

 

I won't talk about Pyro PT's anymore because I don't have first hand experience playing one and according to you, you do. So even though you won't convince me that Pyro PT damage is not overpowered in PvP because I've seen too much evidence first hand playing with and against them, I will still back off of that topic.

 

I'm glad you enjoy playing an MM Sniper. I level to 50 and beyond with it, it's a fun spec, it's easy to learn and use, It's nostalgic; I understand. However, when you're talking about winning a GAME or a MATCH or a WAR and all DPS is considered equal when compared to three different specs, it's that extra dirty kick you get from the reduced cooldown; the extra AOE knockback you use with the reduced cooldown to clear an area; that extra damage reduction probe you get that buys you some time until your healer gets there; the lower cooldown on your CC breaker; the ability to kite and LoS to stay alive just a little bit longer; the AoE snare; the DoT the kills someone just as they rounded the corner and got away; or maybe even the 30% temporary run speed you get after using Dirty Kick, that ultimately turns out to be the move that wins the game for everyone. That's what a Dirty Fighting Gunslinger brings to the table... the MM Sniper is just white DPS... and isn't even better DPS as DF Gunslingers still have just as good burst damage and even better overall damage.

[DimeStax]

1) MM does not need to be in Cover to use everything in their arsenal. You can drop into Cover for the Snipe and fire the Followthrough and Shatter Shot while moving while tossing off a Rifle Shot in between before you either rinse and repeat or use any of the other Agent/Sniper abilities that MM doesn't suddenly just lose access to.

 

2) I'm not sure what makes you think that you can Leg Shot > Cull, but MM can't Leg Shot > Ambush.

 

3) I can only assume you have no idea what the talent Sniper Volley does. MM snipers are generally leaving Cover every 6 seconds or so, both for refreshing Ballistic Dampers and for regaining the instant Snipe.

 

4) DoTs are not all that much damage. You still need LoS on your target to actually kill them.

 

5) You still need to drop into Cover if you don't want your Cull interrupted or get leapt on by Warrior ACs. You are slightly more mobile, but you depend on a 3 second channel for your main damage, which exposes you to all the same issues as every other ranged class. LoS included.

 

6) I don't fight Lethal snipers that are hanging out directly beside a pole. That's just stupid. Just like you wouldn't fight me in an open field. That would also be stupid. BTW, Snipers/Slingers are almost never each other's priority targets, unless higher priorities are dead or you just feel like waving your e-wang around.

 

1) Yes, you can move. It is possible. But like I mentioned before (please pay attention because I'm getting tired of saying this and repeating myself), UNLIKE the DF Gunslinger, it is detrimental to a MM Snipers DPS and Energy recovery for him to move as he still needs to pop back into cover to use MOST of their abilities and regenerate energy.

 

2) Legshot and 1 Ambush is not EVEN CLOSE to the damage 1 Cull does on a fully dotted target. Not even remotely. You're way off bro.

 

3) Refreshing Sniper Volley is a good idea, but every 6 seconds probably isn't. Everytime you stand up and prop cover down again you're wasting AT LEAST a global cooldown if not longer for the game to register you standing up and re-propping cover. Thus, wasting time you could actually be dealing DPS. You have to ask yourself if it's really necessary that you refresh Sniper Volley every 6 seconds or just every now and then when you see an opportunity available.

 

4) Yes, we still need to reposition to kill DoTTed targets who LoS us most of the time, however that is extremely easy and viable for us to do as most of our abilities are instant cast and can be used on the run, and we regenerate energy from our DoT ticks as we move too, so chasing people around poles is not an issue for us, we can do it as well as any melee class does it; like a boss.

 

5) Slightly more mobile? You must be joking. MM Snipers need to stay in cover to regenerate energy efficiently as well as use most of their damaging attacks. I can run around NOT IN COVER and regenerate just as efficiently, as well as still use 85% of my most damaging abilities with the exception of Sabotage Charge and Speed Shot. IF I SO CHOOSE, I can prop cover to use my Cull/Wounding Shots just to make sure no one leaps to me unexpectedly, for the additional range defensive bonus, or the anti-intrrupt ability, but it's not absolutely necessary. Do I usually use cover while using Cull? Yes. But I usually don't stay in cover in one place for very long, and LoS is NEVER an issue for me. I don't know what you don't understand about that so I'll say it again: LOS IS NEVER AN ISSUE FOR DF GUNSLINGERS. NEVER! EVER EVER EVER! "But you started Channeling Cull, surely it must be an issue now." NO, IT'S NEVER AN ISSUE! Got it? NEVER. You pole hump around a Cull we'll chase you down, root you, and use it again (it only has a 12 second cooldown).

 

6) Priority lists aren't nearly as important for DF Gunslingers as they are to MM Snipers. We DoT up EVERYONE in the area indiscriminately, and then we choose the weakest target or the one being focused on to Cull. It doesn't matter if you're a tank, a healer (although it's always wise to put pressure on the healer), or a DPS. If we start locking Cull on you, you're going down. Cull is half internal damage and half white damage, so half of it is completely ignores your armor. I kill Snipers because A) I know they are usually MM and an easy kill B) They put out a lot of damage on an area when left alone and C) They just look so smug sitting there on top of a perch doing damage thinking no one is going to go out of their way to get them and I enjoy taking them out of their game, making them run around and making them take those long runs back to those high places all over again.

Edited May 25, 2012 by DimeStax

[Kllashaa]

I'm sure these walls of text will result in people realizing how horribly wrong they were, apologies and hugs all around, capped off with an adventure to Candy Mountain.

[Varicite]

I'm sure these walls of text will result in people realizing how horribly wrong they were, apologies and hugs all around, capped off with an adventure to Candy Mountain.

 

You know what?

 

I'm sorry guys. Hug?

 

I've never been to Candy Mountain before. :c

[HeavensTerror]

That's why I like my Slinger. All three trees are viable, and not one is better then the others. Each has a purpose.

[Altruismo]

BTW, Snipers/Slingers are almost never each other's priority targets, unless higher priorities are dead or you just feel like waving your e-wang around.

 

This is completely true except for one little thing. Every Slinger/Sniper I see gets a Corrosive dart, I can usually spare the GCD and the energy and they can't do anything about it. the extra bonus is it hands me back some energy off Lethal Purpose ticks.

 

Apart from that, I actually agree with you that MM snipers get way too much of a bad rap for PVP.

Less mobile does not mean - can't move at all, and because they don;t rely on DoTs for their damage at all, they actually get better mileage from legshot, flashbang and coverpulse because they have complete control over when they break them themselves.

A MM sniper can leg shot, then take the time to probe->ambush->FT->laze->Instasnipe and all of that damage lands basically the same time that in takes to cull - and the MM sniper will not break the himself root before the ambush lands, and he can then throw a flashbang and get the entire duration of the mezz to work with with no risk of breaking it himself until he chooses to.

If the MM sniper starts with a cover pulse it's even better because he knocks the target back with the ambush, and can follow with a leg shot instead of flashbang.

I was eng/leth pre 1.2 and I've been Leth since 1.2 but I've played around with heavier MM builds and it's obvious to me that tweaking MM to make it more viable is a very difficult balancing act because it would be very easy for MM to become OP - at the moment the real problem with MM is that it's too easily mitigated.