Do you support an in game version of Recount. Please give reasons for your answer.

[The-Xandroz]

No I don't need any of this

[Colobulous]

Numbers should stay under the hood as they always have, why should it be pushed like drugs unto others, when it's not necessary. It is a bad habit transplanted from another game, number crunchers should stick to their own thing, instead of turning the interface into a calculator.

 

Man, referring to understanding the game as a drug? Ok, let's try it like an antibiotic, curing us of the disease of ignorance and misinformation, pushing out the fungus of confusion!

 

Seriously, what MMO games are playing where they don't let you see the mechanics?

 

I don't want this, for it is intrusive, and push play styles imported from another game into the visible area of this game. It's not a common practice, for a reason. If we had looked for a spreadsheet game, it should say so on the box. Don't force your hobbies into the interface, taking it one step too far.

 

Numbers begone!

 

Hypocritically forcing your own hobby on the rest of us. Sorry, but you don't have a BlackBox MMO here.

[Colobulous]

Well if you want to split hairs on this one, you said "behave differently" which is neither a negative or positive indicator or relative to their play style, real life behavior or.. well anything.

 

I thought the negativity was understood, from the whole context of what I was saying.

 

You must have missed it.

 

Generally, without the meters, downing the boss is the primary focus.. Winning the fight and getting the loots.. With the meters.. #1 DPS becomes the primary focus for a lot of people.. wiping or not, touting that spot matters just as much to a lot of people (and a lot more for some) since its a personal achievement and not a group achievement.

 

With or without the meters, some people are willing to pay attention and succeed, others aren't. That's not something that changes, they are who they are without it. Meters allow you to know what they did specifically. This doesn't change people for the worse, if anything, it gives you an incentive to change them for the better, because you can clearly and specifically say:

 

"You did not get out of the fire"

"You did not switch to the add"

"You did not interrupt"

"You did not dispel"

"You broke the CC"

"You did not CC"

 

And it be an objective and real complaint, with specific demonstration of it.

 

But it doesn't cause somebody to suddenly decide "Oh, well, DPS is the only thing that matters" when they were previously thoughtful and perspicacious.

 

The people who go all gung-ho over meters? Maybe you didn't know them beforehand, but the ones I did? They were like that beforehand. Wouldn't interrupt a spell without being told, wouldn't look around, would just mash buttons, and sometimes without even realizing their performance wasn't great.

 

So that's why I like using meters, because I don't attribute the problem you have to being caused by them, I attribute the solution to the problem I had to them.

 

This will be hard to predict until we know where they balance things.. If they balance it with the guilds you see on MMO Champion the day after content patches, then yes.

 

Generally though in the "Good sells better than best" world, I don't see them doing this.

 

You misunderstand, I'm saying the balancing would be worse, not towards harder difficulty, but worse, as the discrepancy between the elite and the rest would get further out of hand, not closer.

 

It's counterproductive to making a game that's effectively challenging when you have gaps in performance.

 

I'm not talking about watching your group mates with a fine toothed comb.. but when you group with person A, and stuff goes smoothly, and you group with person B and the same thing is exceedingly more difficult.. it's pretty easy to figure out.

 

Not specifically, in a way that can be addressed and resolved. A lack of an ability to solve it causes more elitism, not less.

 

That's why I prefer a log parser, to know, and then to fix.

 

I don't see how statistically breaking down everyone's damage and pouring over what other people are doing wrong is any less oversight.

 

Because of the specific actions taken, that's the difference. Content is still going to be difficult, and it's still going to requite examination...but your way requires more pointless and tedious effort, not less, to get the same results.

 

That takes away immersion.

 

I think the misconception here is that I don't understand or value your side of the debate.. Which I assure you sir.. I do. and honestly, whatever the majority wants (to a point obviously) is what Bioware should do.

 

I think the misconception is that you don't realize the consequences of what you're arguing, but mistakenly attribute the problems you have to the wrong cause, without realizing they exist regardless of the tool. And FWIW, I don't believe that the idea of "Majority Rules" is necessarily a good idea either, but I don't want to get into an argument over who has the majority either, that just leads to tedious bickering on its own.

 

It is just my opinion with my own experiences bringing me to my conclusion, that in general people would end up enjoying the game more at the end of the day without them. (Or end of month, once the DPS meter withdrawls faded ; ) )

 

I have no problem enjoying the game while understanding the mechanics of it. I do not like playing Blackbox games, if I did, I would be trying to play one. But I don't, I prefer a game whose mechanics I understand.

 

If you want to play a Blackbox game, go for it, but this game will not be what you want.

Edited December 14, 2011 by Colobulous

[Colobulous]

Look, the simple truth is in my experience, more people are ignorant than not.

 

And your solution to this is? More ignorance, by pretending if you hide something, people will suddenly make better decisions?

 

The reality is...they won't. It'll be a worse battle, because you won't have anything to go on, no leverage, no foundation, just arguments. If there are people who listen, you will focus on those narrow few, while ignoring the rest.

 

So it leads to more elitism, not less.

 

Also, if every boss is a DPS race, that's because the developers didn't think of enough encounter mechanics, not because of a existence of a meter.

[GalacticKegger]

No thanks. I can gauge my improvement by the speed in which I kill a mob or my ability to kill harder mobs.

 

I'll pass on recount I don't need to find out if I improved my dps by 0.083%

Yessir! I'll take a pop-up window combat log so I can see what I did wrong and correct it. My vote also goes for a customizable UI (which is in the works btw - yay!) Outside of possibly a minimalist HealBot and rudimentary economy enhancement mods for monitoring FMV on the GTN, pretty much anything else either dumbs the game down so loot hoarders can blow through boss drops faster, or becomes fuel for adolescent size compariisons. Edited December 14, 2011 by GalacticKegger

[Doddsie]

no there shouldnt be a recount, all it served was pandering to the 1337 boys, just cos someone isnt doing as much damage as the next dont mean jack, if dpsed in wow a lot and did less than the epic geared people, and find that though i may do less damage i am more usefull, the amount of times ive seen mobs beating on the healer and people dont even notice. i like to think im doing enough, but im also looking out for the whole group, not that others arnt, but there are a lot that are there for themself only and dont care about anything else.

[glowpipe]

Recounts does one thing. It take the focus in flashpoints from having fun to top the frikking meters.

 

Yes. it can be used to gauge how good ppl play and who make you fail.

 

But it only make the community act elitist and we have the same **** as in wow again. If you dont do the exact same dps as everyone else. You suck. Even tho you threw away all your dmg helping the healer that was under attack and actualy just saved your raid from a certain wipe. But thats not important. High numbers are important. And nothing else.

 

With a dps meter we only get dps focus and the game turns to **** so fast. It happened to wow, It happened to rift. And it sure as hell will happen here aswell. ban dps meter to hell and never get that **** in

[PsyloSatan]

Recounts does one thing. It take the focus in flashpoints from having fun to top the frikking meters.

 

Yes. it can be used to gauge how good ppl play and who make you fail.

 

But it only make the community act elitist and we have the same **** as in wow again. If you dont do the exact same dps as everyone else. You suck. Even tho you threw away all your dmg helping the healer that was under attack and actualy just saved your raid from a certain wipe. But thats not important. High numbers are important. And nothing else.

 

With a dps meter we only get dps focus and the game turns to **** so fast. It happened to wow, It happened to rift. And it sure as hell will happen here aswell. ban dps meter to hell and never get that **** in

 

Recount does not have any effect on stupid. Stupid is a state of mind, recount is software that helps organize a combat log. Al the people that dont want it a restating stupid *** reasons that dont even fall into the catagory of recount. Recount is a diagnostic tool to help people that play as a team work out problems. 90% of the people in this thread saying it is bad are saying that to cover up their personal issues with being bad at the game. Address your failure for what it is and stop trying to blame an object for it. Regardless of wether the addon is there or not someone is gonna see you being bad and take a huge dump on you for it. Only difference: YOU WONT BE ABLE TO LIE ABOUT IT!

[Malevento]

No dps meters, for most of the reasons others have posted and for me it forces developers to change the game. What do I mean? Fights turn into dps races. Less about fun strategy and more about pushing max dps to make the game a challenge.

 

I don't want it in the game.

[PsyloSatan]

No dps meters, for most of the reasons others have posted and for me it forces developers to change the game. What do I mean? Fights turn into dps races. Less about fun strategy and more about pushing max dps to make the game a challenge.

 

I don't want it in the game.

 

It doesnt force deveopers to do anything. It makes something already in game easier to read. Thats it. Actually I guess it does one other thing:

 

Raid leader: Dude you wiped us because you werent paying attention to fire/debuff/reality

 

You: No I wasnt I was doing everything right! Im a super hero!

 

Raid leader: *Punches you in the mouth with proof of your failure including all numbers and times that you were failing*

 

You: Damn I got caught lying. Guess Ill have to get some skill.

[Dragonfall-Five]

I would only support it if there was a restriction on how many times a DK..... opps I Meant burst damage obsessed numpties could spam the chat with his/her impressive AOE trash damage scores.

 

once every 8-10 years would be a good start

[Vant]

I equate Recount to Stats in any sport. The stats don't really mean a lot. The big question is, did you win?

 

If you can't identify why you didn't win without recount, you have more problems.

[Bigguyonarock]

I equate Recount to Stats in any sport. The stats don't really mean a lot. The big question is, did you win?

 

If you can't identify why you didn't win without recount, you have more problems.

 

As much as I try, I can't watch everyone's *** in addition to performing my own role for an entire fight.

 

So having a retrospective POV on what happened helps. And recount uses less memory than fraps.

[LaurV]

I equate Recount to Stats in any sport. The stats don't really mean a lot. The big question is, did you win?

 

If you can't identify why you didn't win without recount, you have more problems.

 

Right... And you can do it while there are other 15 players in raid? I doub it.

 

Simply put: yes, recount is needed in game.

Edited December 14, 2011 by LaurV

[robisowe]

Yes.

 

I want to be able to exclude people from content once I get 50 today.

[Larisphon]

Regardless of who develops it, regardless of it being native to the UI or an add on, I use recount. As a raid and guild leader in that other panda-infested MMO, I spent an hour or so after each raid studying metrics from each encounter. I did not use it to ostracize players but to find weak points in our strategies and places for improvement. It is a tool. When used as such it can enrich the lives of players, but like any tool it can be misused to everyone's detriment. I still want the option to have the tool.

[BCass]

I hardcore raided and raid lead in wow and used recount. Recount is good. Alot of people that use recount are bad. Way to many dps players think it is all about being high in the charts and love to boast and fight over bigest e-peens. Good players know that you must get out of the fire, CC lose mobs, make life easy for healers and tanks and play the game as intended. Not just stand and spam a rotation on one target to get high in recount.

 

Recount isnt a bad tool. But if it comes to swtor i will view this as a bad thing.

 

If Bioware can provide a tool that will show player efficiency in a diffrent way then i will be a happy bunny.

[sKyloo]

DPS Meter are a simple way to measure Players Skill.

Player Skill is usefull clearing hard instances.

DPS Meter help getting the best skill tree tested out.

 

It's for real gamers, not the casual ones

 

sry bro, u mad now?

[Vant]

DPS does not measure skill. Sorry, but I've seen blithering idiots who wiped raids who also had good/great dps.

[xNethrilx]

Regardless of who develops it, regardless of it being native to the UI or an add on, I use recount. As a raid and guild leader in that other panda-infested MMO, I spent an hour or so after each raid studying metrics from each encounter. I did not use it to ostracize players but to find weak points in our strategies and places for improvement. It is a tool. When used as such it can enrich the lives of players, but like any tool it can be misused to everyone's detriment. I still want the option to have the tool.

 

^^ This.

 

as a current raid leader, I use Skada in game to have metrics available to help players adjust, find where players are failing (mechanics ETC), and other factors that can not be easily discovered without a resource such as Skada or Recount. I then use WoW Web Stats to analyze in greater detail all of the metrics from the nights attempts. Using tools such as these can allow groups to maximize their effectiveness and reduce the time it takes to find success. Without it, how do you know Joe soaked tons of damage from standing in the fire? Sometimes it's obvious, sometimes Joe just happens to sneak by because good healers are making up for it. Or, how do you know that Fred is basically just auto-attacking and paying no attention?

 

I feel that addons such as these in todays MMO environment are a must.

 

- Nethril

[Bigguyonarock]

DPS does not measure skill. Sorry, but I've seen blithering idiots who wiped raids who also had good/great dps.

 

Except it does for DPS players. All players have to worry about avoiding fire, performing boss specific roles, maintaining/not breaking CC, etc.

 

This argument is ridiculous. Would you excuse a healer who couldn't keep people alive because he was too busy not getting hit by the randomly placed fireballs?

 

Or the tank who couldn't hold aggro because he's incapable of clicking on an interactable object and maintaining his threat rotation because he's a clicker?

 

DPS players should not be allowed to be ****** DPS just because they have to worry about what ALL players have to worry about.

 

A good player mitigates their own mistakes in addition to excelling at their class's role. ALL players have to do this. You cannot have one or the other.

 

Meters/Parsers track everything.

Edited December 14, 2011 by Bigguyonarock

[Ecrofeht]

I'd vote NO to any 3rd party crap. If it were an addon or feature you could just activate in-game though I see no problems.

[PsyloSatan]

I equate Recount to Stats in any sport. The stats don't really mean a lot. The big question is, did you win?

 

If you can't identify why you didn't win without recount, you have more problems.

 

You have never lead a raid in your life. I wonder if you even know other humans. They lie. Not all of them all the time. But enough of them some of the time. Recount takes their lies and shoves them back down their throat. OR it helps the other people in the raid help someone that isnt lying. Not having it just allows us all to act like the pieces of crap we are whenever we feel like. I am not excluding myself from any of this. I am also not excluding anyone else. Recount>liars and inexperience. Recount =/= people being mean to eachother.

[PsyloSatan]

I'd vote NO to any 3rd party crap. If it were an addon or feature you could just activate in-game though I see no problems.

 

This is a solution most pro recount gamers could accept. The only reason there IS a recount is becuase MMOs suck so hard at implimenting an easy to read combat log on their own.

[Jennkko]

no it starts to encourage competion in damage, which will snow ball to what WoW is like now, lets just be happy with what we have and as long as the enemy goes down thats all that matters in the end. Just dont see the point, its more fun to rely on skill and team work, rather than have it a numbers game, i hated that about WoW.