Antifaith Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 I think people might be falling intop the misnoma that either having or not having recount somehow changes the games mechanics. Just an example here - Say a boss requires 35thousand raid dps over a 9 minute period. NOT having recount is not going to change that fact. I get the inclination that some of the comments here would rather not have recount because they dont want to know how well or badly they are doing. With recount and the knowlege of the bosses damage requirements you can more easily work a more effective mannor in wich to meet that requirement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jest Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 /sigh. I didn't say they were busy staring at the Add On. I said they were focusing primarily on getting their DPS the highest. That would likely mean they were focusing on their rotations and CD's rather than having Raid Awareness. The reason WHY people focus so intently on rotation is because of how highly DPS is valued due to the idea that anything below X DPS = Bad Player. Recount supports that idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bovronius Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 What? I was just mad at the one guy who said meters are bad and that to record DPS we should need a second computer. Its quite the opposite. You do not like my opinion so you are trying to turn it into something else. If you can't wait till after a raid to sort through the data, parse it out, and do your calculations and changes, then yes, get a second computer (Granted as long as it's not a banned program you could run it on the same box as your TOR game, but EQ didn't allow for ANY 3rd party programs at the time, hence the second computer and packet sniffer.) You realize that parsing the combat log later on is always an option.. sort and pour through data when you're not at a raid... Output combat log to text... blam. No ingame bars and posts distracting people, and information is still there for people to utilize for improvement of game play. Data is available for your side of the argument..(Which as I said before I do have an appreciation for data...but moreso in the real world.) The detraction and immediate distractions are gone from mine (and others) side of the fence. People can parse it out on their own time then, and if someones constantly wiping the raid with one stupid mistake.. well.. I'm sure that will be worth the time to stop the raid and look through to see what's happening. Granted I still think this will be in the position of spinning your wheels since whatever % it increases player efficiency by, raid difficulty will just be increased the same to compensate, and the game will shift to favor numbers vs playing a game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kendry Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 actually no they did not. The only poll where the numbers were even close was the last one and in that recount/dps people still came up short. All the rest were and i joke not 2k+ to 90 sayin git was not needed. Which was why the pro people kept putting up a new poll every day hoping they would get a different result It really is funny the claim that recount/dps meters are needed to raid. How did we ever raid in EQ without them Well. It kinda went like this. Whoever pulled aggro from the tank usually got smashed flat in under 6 seconds. His corpse was then dragged to the back of the raid, and he would be ressed by whichever cleric was not next up on the healing chain, or if all clerics occupied, he would sit naked at his bind point for the rest of the fight, which would be anywhere from 3-30 minutes depending on the encounter. Naturally, in a large raid, people would be AFK, and on autofollow and you would not even notice because of the sheer amount of people and the lack of tools to point out the slackers. Only your tanks and your healers mattered, dps was merely an accessory. If they pulled aggro and died, it sucked for them, melee got rebuffed and sent back into the fight with ress effects, casters had to pretty much sit it out. I dont really understand what the point of bringing up a decade+ MMO is, but those raids had the potential of going bad really fast with the danger of 14+ hr corpse retrieval missions. Everquest also had a recount. It was called Gamparse, it wasnt an addon, but a seperate program that sucked for the guy who was running it. Damage filters had to all be turned on, and you have to log your chat for the entire night. Then you had to alt tab, run it through the program and let it compile. Let's not bring those days back. Recount was quick, let you cycle through most of the pertinent information in its own window and you could click on individual players for more detailed information. More tools is good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antifaith Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 No, I would not like Recount. Recount shifts the focus of Raids to DPS and HPS rather than actually paying attention to the mechanics of the fight. I've seen plenty of situations where someone will race to get their DPS the highest, then die because they weren't paying attention to the mechanics. The ONLY time DPS matters is in a mechanic that includes a race against a clock (enrage timer) and even then, Recount won't show you how to Spec your Character or how to Improve your Rotations. That information comes from Spreadsheeting and Parsing the logs for actual Damage Per Skill. It really only serves to eliminate players based on one aspect of their performance. That's not an ideal that I'd like to see implemented in this game. Recount can tell you who specificly is ignoring their duty by not interupting. Any decent guild understands that the person on interupts ect are usualy going to be a little lower on damage. WITH recount you can tell who's ruining your raid. WITHOUT it you wont know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jest Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 Say a boss requires 35thousand raid dps over a 9 minute period. NOT having recount is not going to change that fact. The issue I have with this example is that it only takes into account a Time Limit. An "Enrage Timer" if you will. If an encounter does not have a time limit.. then there's no need for Recount. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remidi Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 (edited) If you can't wait till after a raid to sort through the data, parse it out, and do your calculations and changes, then yes, get a second computer (Granted as long as it's not a banned program you could run it on the same box as your TOR game, but EQ didn't allow for ANY 3rd party programs at the time, hence the second computer and packet sniffer.) You realize that parsing the combat log later on is always an option.. sort and pour through data when you're not at a raid... Output combat log to text... blam. No ingame bars and posts distracting people, and information is still there for people to utilize for improvement of game play. Data is available for your side of the argument..(Which as I said before I do have an appreciation for data...but moreso in the real world.) The detraction and immediate distractions are gone from mine (and others) side of the fence. People can parse it out on their own time then, and if someones constantly wiping the raid with one stupid mistake.. well.. I'm sure that will be worth the time to stop the raid and look through to see what's happening. Granted I still think this will be in the position of spinning your wheels since whatever % it increases player efficiency by, raid difficulty will just be increased the same to compensate, and the game will shift to favor numbers vs playing a game. Seriously are you trolling me? SERIOUSLY? It takes one second to look through a meter. See here is the problem. You really do not know what you are talking about as you have never needed to do this. People dislike what they do not understand. Edited December 14, 2011 by Remidi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atalantia Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 No. Why not just have a bot play the game for you. Oh looky my bot killed the boss cause I have super duper addons, See i can hit this one button and my addons do everything for me no skill required, just hit the button Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antifaith Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 The issue I have with this example is that it only takes into account a Time Limit. An "Enrage Timer" if you will. If an encounter does not have a time limit.. then there's no need for Recount. If there is no enrage timer on bosses i sure as hell wont be playing this game liong. There needs to be a limit somewhere, you cannot just fight a boss indefinatly , thats just rediculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hixt Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 No. Why not just have a bot play the game for you. Oh looky my bot killed the boss cause I have super duper addons, See i can hit this one button and my addons do everything for me no skill required, just hit the button Why not make a cogent point relevant to the thread your posting in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tilitus Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 sounds good.. better then a 3rd party program... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antifaith Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 No. Why not just have a bot play the game for you. Oh looky my bot killed the boss cause I have super duper addons, See i can hit this one button and my addons do everything for me no skill required, just hit the button Recount does not play the game for you. It is a diagnostic tool. Please read the title, were not discussing other addons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remidi Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 No. Why not just have a bot play the game for you. Oh looky my bot killed the boss cause I have super duper addons, See i can hit this one button and my addons do everything for me no skill required, just hit the button That's called a macro. See again someone who does not fully know what they are talking about so they are against it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PagingCraig Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 No. Why not just have a bot play the game for you. Oh looky my bot killed the boss cause I have super duper addons, See i can hit this one button and my addons do everything for me no skill required, just hit the button Yes the dmg meters are playing for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PsyloSatan Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 /sigh. I didn't say they were busy staring at the Add On. I said they were focusing primarily on getting their DPS the highest. That would likely mean they were focusing on their rotations and CD's rather than having Raid Awareness. The reason WHY people focus so intently on rotation is because of how highly DPS is valued due to the idea that anything below X DPS = Bad Player. Recount supports that idea. People that dont know how recount works supports that idea. The "Damage Done" page is only one section of recount. It is not recounts fault that some players are too lazy to read the rest of the information. Those players arent doing anything important anyways most times. Im in this for the raid leaders that have to deal with these lazy morons that then turn around in complete ignorance of their own failure and blame it on others and/or just flat out lie about it. If people know there are no consequences, they will almost always choose the path of least resistance. Recount lets the leader more easily correct that path to something more productive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jest Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 Recount can tell you who specificly is ignoring their duty by not interupting. Any decent guild understands that the person on interupts ect are usualy going to be a little lower on damage. WITH recount you can tell who's ruining your raid. WITHOUT it you wont know. If you assign someone to Interrupt.. and Mob isn't getting interrupted.. you know exactly who is slacking. Likewise, with no Auto Attack and unique animations per Skill Use, you can easily see who isn't doing anything or who is simply spamming 1 or 2 attacks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Israel Posted December 14, 2011 Author Share Posted December 14, 2011 I just want to point out that Remidi is officially my favourite poster in this thread. And everything he says is full of epic win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bovronius Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 Yeah sure - I think I mispoke. When I mentioned "idiots" I wasnt thinking of DPS meters but other stuff (actually RL behaviour but doesnt really matter). I think "reasonable amount of time" also differs in our definition I'll gladly wait 30mins for a group which I enjoy playing with instead of doing it with people who I find annoying. And if I'm in the middle of the dungeon and someone is annoying me I'll try to figure out if he is annoying others or if I'm the only offended. And depending on the outcome either he leaves or I leave. The game is supposed to be fun for me. And I will probably will get it done sooner or later (again both sides claim to have equal numbers supporting them^^). I mean it's similiar to the PvE vs PvP debate. People just realized their playstyles dont mix. It's not like the PvPer is an idiot nor is the PvE loving player an idiot. So why not come to the same conclusion? It's just a different preference, so why not give players what they want and give them an option to see if their preferences dont fit? Again - this game will have enough players to be picky about those who you play with I honestly enjoy sitting on both sides of the fence, usually I'm wrapped up with a hardcore raiding guild, but then I have my secret alts, that I will just pug with.. Meet new people and enjoy some random hijinx and banter. As far as my opinion on it being an option, I've touched this a few times in other peoples responses.. but once it becomes an option.. it becomes more of a must have.. my reasoning behind this is...if it increases player performance by 20% on average... the difficulty of raids will be tuned to be 20% more difficult, otherwise obviously they don't want everyone blowing through content instantly.. (or maybe they will...) and then the people that would preferred not to have the meters in the first place will be worse off (even if they were in an isolated group) than they were to begin with. Despite the fact that Im on the side that would rather not see them.. If they were there, I'd usem.. (Well, I'm going to be tanking so not as much for personal use..) but I think you know what I mean.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remidi Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 (edited) We can all agree on one thing though. We needz to be playing right now !!!!111!!!!111!!! wordsaboutwowhere I pre-ordered over the summer but I never entered my game code till a couple weeks ago. I fail one internets. Edited December 14, 2011 by Remidi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antifaith Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 If you assign someone to Interrupt.. and Mob isn't getting interrupted.. you know exactly who is slacking. Likewise, with no Auto Attack and unique animations per Skill Use, you can easily see who isn't doing anything or who is simply spamming 1 or 2 attacks. Because you only ever need one person on interupt right? Come on , you're not even making this interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remidi Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 Because you only ever need one person on interupt right? Come on , you're not even making this interesting. They will say whatever. The problem is they do not fully understand what they are talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Revenaught Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 I'm ok with it as a personal tool only. No one else needs access to it and I don't need to see it spammed repeatedly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jest Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 If there is no enrage timer on bosses i sure as hell wont be playing this game liong. There needs to be a limit somewhere, you cannot just fight a boss indefinatly , thats just rediculous. You can use other mechanics to create difficulty. It doesn't always have to be dodge this, dodge that, and race against a clock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Docfranz Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 Honestly, if I know everyone needs to do around 9000 DPS in a fight, and someone is doing 4000, yes I'm going to tell you to leave and come back when you get better gear. I think anyone else who leads a raid would do the same, because wiping for 3 hours on one boss is not fun either. No matter what it is, people are going to find something in the game or addons to abuse and degrade other players. I suggest stop the tears and put on your tryhard pants and do better =D Problem- I got kicked for bad dps *** bbq! Solution- Do more dps... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remidi Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 (edited) I'm ok with it as a personal tool only. No one else needs access to it and I don't need to see it spammed repeatedly. I have not seen someone spamming it in WoW in a long time. If they are a pug I would ignore them. If they are a guildie I would boot them. Having it so you can not spam public channels with it, is a damn good idea though. Edited December 14, 2011 by Remidi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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