Too Ambiguous

[Canemuto]

I can't get my friends to play this game because they can't see the class roles as being defined enough. Up until today I thought that this was just a petty view of the physical appearance of the classes (example: Trooper/Mercenary as a Tank).

 

It never occurred to me how flawed the itemization is in this game. If a Sage healer winds up in a group with a Shadow tank and a Shadow dps they share gear. In spite of being separated by being two different classes and three distinctly different roles, the three of them are all rolling on the same gear. Why?

 

There are 3 Armor Classes, 7 Basic Stats, and 9 Secondary Stats. This provides for an enormous number of permutations when compared to only 13 class/role combinations. Why is there so much ambiguity between items? Every class should be rolling on items as defined for their class and role.

 

Bioware I beg you not to disregard this problem because it is a major one. Like I said at the start of this post, I can't convince people to play this game because of this exact issue.

[Varral]

I don't have any real evidence to back this up, but i would imagine the reason they do it the way they do is to optimize class diversity in the groups. Say maybe a Juggernaut tank, Sorc healer, Op melee dps, and Merc ranged dps. And if both groups follow a similar set up then you're only getting 2 people rolling on one item. Of course groups are rarely set up this way, especially end game. But i think that's the general idea.

[bright_ephemera]

I for one don't want to go back to the days when we couldn't fill two DPS slots because nobody wanted to be in the same raid as a single other mage or hunter or warlock...

 

Items locked to be useful to a single class/spec mean that some items will drop that are useless to everyone in the op. Loot competition isn't a simple fact of life to get used to, it's a deciding factor in whether a player bothers to show up. That lessens everyone's chances of getting to play the ops at all.

 

If people seriously feel that they can't enjoy a game wherein a tank Juggernaut can't get special-snowflake tank-Juggernaut-only ops drops...how do I say this politely...they hold perhaps a flawed and narrow concept of gameplay.

[bri_bates]

I can't get my friends to play this game because they can't see the class roles as being defined enough. Up until today I thought that this was just a petty view of the physical appearance of the classes (example: Trooper/Mercenary as a Tank).

 

It never occurred to me how flawed the itemization is in this game. If a Sage healer winds up in a group with a Shadow tank and a Shadow dps they share gear. In spite of being separated by being two different classes and three distinctly different roles, the three of them are all rolling on the same gear. Why?

 

1) classes being able to perform multiple roles helps in getting those roles filled. Granted not enough to get things to the point where dps isn't still waiting around to find tanks/healers, but some. Having spent time in a game where every single character could potentially fill 2 of the 3 roles I know for a fact that the choke point isn't that players CAN'T switch to tank/heal to make getting groups faster, it's that they WON'T.

 

2) If a sage healer and shadow tank are both rolling on the same gear either one, or both, is doing it wrong, they are so low level that gear really shouldn't matter because it will be gone in a level or two anyway, or they are rolling for a token. Tokens being shared by multiple classes is not something new or different to MMOs as they cut down on the likelyhood of useless tokens dropping (which is the entire point of dropping tokens instead of specific loot items in the first place).

[Vid-szhite]

I can't get my friends to play this game because they can't see the class roles as being defined enough. Up until today I thought that this was just a petty view of the physical appearance of the classes (example: Trooper/Mercenary as a Tank).

 

It never occurred to me how flawed the itemization is in this game. If a Sage healer winds up in a group with a Shadow tank and a Shadow dps they share gear. In spite of being separated by being two different classes and three distinctly different roles, the three of them are all rolling on the same gear. Why?

 

There are 3 Armor Classes, 7 Basic Stats, and 9 Secondary Stats. This provides for an enormous number of permutations when compared to only 13 class/role combinations. Why is there so much ambiguity between items? Every class should be rolling on items as defined for their class and role.

 

Bioware I beg you not to disregard this problem because it is a major one. Like I said at the start of this post, I can't convince people to play this game because of this exact issue.

 

You're saying this because you're low level. The gear is all the same because nobody has their defining talents and abilities yet, so everyone is basically a DPS with a few extra tricks. A DPS could heal in low levels simply because the class has a heal. Hell, a Merc could Tank, Heal, and DPS at the same time in the 10-15 range. Your friends noticed this, no doubt, but since they didn't stick it out, they never noticed that it doesn't last past 16-20. If a DPS tried that in the 25 range, the group would be dead in the water, because by then, the healer tree gives pure healers MANY new abilities that you can't do without. By then, gear also starts to diverge, and your roles are very clearly defined.

 

Once you get into the 30s, everyone starts getting different gear. Tanks gear gear with defenses and more endurance, DPS gets more accuracy and power, healers get more alacrity, etc. By 50, each class might have as many as 4 different sets of gear each. Sages and Sorcs have 2 sets per AC: Force-Mystic (Sage Heal), Force-Master (Sage DPS), Stalker (Shadow DPS), and Survivor (Shadow Tank). What you're asking for is already in the game... you're just not at that level yet.

Edited May 20, 2012 by Vid-szhite

[Canemuto]

I for one don't want to go back to the days when we couldn't fill two DPS slots because nobody wanted to be in the same raid as a single other mage or hunter or warlock....

 

Im confused. Are you saying that people who played WoW didn't like joining a group because they may have to roll against one other person who shares the same gear as them? AND you prefer a system where a DPS shares gear with not only another DPS, but also a tank and a healer?

[Darthshnooky]

You're saying this because you're low level. The gear is all the same because nobody has their defining talents and abilities yet, so everyone is basically a DPS with a few extra tricks. A DPS could heal in low levels simply because the class has a heal. Hell, a Merc could Tank, Heal, and DPS at the same time in the 10-15 range. Your friends noticed this, no doubt, but since they didn't stick it out, they never noticed that it doesn't last past 16-20. If a DPS tried that in the 25 range, the group would be dead in the water, because by then, the healer tree gives pure healers MANY new abilities that you can't do without. By then, gear also starts to diverge, and your roles are very clearly defined.

 

Once you get into the 30s, everyone starts getting different gear. Tanks gear gear with defenses and more endurance, DPS gets more accuracy and power, healers get more alacrity, etc. By 50, each class might have as many as 4 different sets of gear each. Sages and Sorcs have 2 sets per AC: Force-Mystic (Sage Heal), Force-Master (Sage DPS), Stalker (Shadow DPS), and Survivor (Shadow Tank). What you're asking for is already in the game... you're just not at that level yet.

 

This ^

 

OP: by level 50, most classes aren't sharing loot to the extent that they do early on. Also, Mercs are DPS or Healers, not Tanks. You might've just been using that as a general example, but it's incorrect.

[bright_ephemera]

Im confused. Are you saying that people who played WoW didn't like joining a group because they may have to roll against one other person who shares the same gear as them? AND you prefer a system where a DPS shares gear with not only another DPS, but also a tank and a healer?

 

Yeah, I'm saying both things. In a system where multiple people are always going to roll on one item, you know that up front and can't avoid it. It isn't a deciding factor in whether you show up for a given group: no matter what, you're going to be rolling against other people. Whereas in a system where maybe, in some raid comps, two people might have to roll on one item, everybody starts maneuvering to avoid that fate. And soon it's twice as hard as it should be to make a group, because people will actually refuse to show up if they're going to have to roll against a whole one other person.

[Canemuto]

Once you get into the 30s, everyone starts getting different gear. Tanks gear gear with defenses and more endurance, DPS gets more accuracy and power, healers get more alacrity, etc. By 50, each class might have as many as 4 different sets of gear each. Sages and Sorcs have 2 sets per AC: Force-Mystic (Sage Heal), Force-Master (Sage DPS), Stalker (Shadow DPS), and Survivor (Shadow Tank). What you're asking for is already in the game... you're just not at that level yet.

 

You are right I am low level, however I am mid 30's and it doesn't matter how a piece of gear is constructed, as long as it has willpower a shadow tank/dps and/or a sage healer/dps will roll on it. Why? because if it contains one mod improvement for ANY of their gear they see it as an upgrade.

You have to realize that it isn't just an issue of sharing gear.

Let's I'm playing a shadow TANK and my orange HEAD GEAR sucks. I run a a flash point and an orange CHEST with HIGH WILLPOWER AND ALACRITY drops. It isn't an upgrade from my current chest piece, but I roll against my healer and dps for it and win. I then take out the mod and use it to replace the mod in my helmet.

 

I should also make it a point that the people defending this current itemization system may not see a problem, and may love it. I am happy for you. There are several people out there that do see it as a problem and these people will not play SWOR as long as it exist.

[Tatile]

Assassin tanks need Alacrity? I did not know this.

 

I have to say though, Tank gear is very distinct from DPS or Healer gear. The only over-lays are in DPS and Healer gear, which I think is a nice encouragement for people to try other specs without feeling the need to gear up an entire off set. I could be wrong, however, seeing as you're saying DPS and Tank gear have over-lays (though that's after diminishing returns on defensive stats, right?)

[Darthshnooky]

You are right I am low level, however I am mid 30's and it doesn't matter how a piece of gear is constructed, as long as it has willpower a shadow tank/dps and/or a sage healer/dps will roll on it. Why? because if it contains one mod improvement for ANY of their gear they see it as an upgrade.

You have to realize that it isn't just an issue of sharing gear.

Let's I'm playing a shadow TANK and my orange HEAD GEAR sucks. I run a a flash point and an orange CHEST with HIGH WILLPOWER AND ALACRITY drops. It isn't an upgrade from my current chest piece, but I roll against my healer and dps for it and win. I then take out the mod and use it to replace the mod in my helmet.

 

I should also make it a point that the people defending this current itemization system may not see a problem, and may love it. I am happy for you. There are several people out there that do see it as a problem and these people will not play SWOR as long as it exist.

 

1. It's just not really an issue at level 50, which (let's be honest) is the only thing that really matters. Gear while leveling is just there to get you by. At 50, the differences are much more pronounced and there really aren't issues with it.

 

2. Yes, let's change a system that 1 million+ players are happy with so that your handful of friends will try out the game. The current gear system is just fine (excluding some itemization issues the devs seem to have, which have nothing to do with your complaints) and doesn't need to be changed. If something so minimal is keeping your friends from playing, then that's just too bad for you.

[So-low]

It is completely different at level 50.

 

You dont roll on pieces, you roll on tokens. Tokens can be exchanged for specific gear for specific roles.

 

The only gear that matters is columi, rakata, campaign, and black hole. You cannot, say, take an armoring from a rakata chest and move it to a columi gloves. You can move the mod and enhancement, but if you need roll just for those then you are a douche and i will be the one removing you from the group and the guild.

 

Or if all else fails set it to master looter and give it to who needs it.

[Infalliable]

1. It's just not really an issue at level 50, which (let's be honest) is the only thing that really matters. Gear while leveling is just there to get you by. At 50, the differences are much more pronounced and there really aren't issues with it.

 

2. Yes, let's change a system that 1 million+ players are happy with so that your handful of friends will try out the game. The current gear system is just fine (excluding some itemization issues the devs seem to have, which have nothing to do with your complaints) and doesn't need to be changed. If something so minimal is keeping your friends from playing, then that's just too bad for you.

 

What he said.

 

By L50, gear is pretty distinct between rolls. Even the bonuses/perks on the gear are largely roll specific.

 

The only time you find gear that is not really role-specific is early on when most of the 2ndary stats haven't started to show up in any real amounts or large enough amounts to matter (e.g., alacrity, absorption, defense, shield, etc.)

[Vodrin]

You are right I am low level, however I am mid 30's and it doesn't matter how a piece of gear is constructed, as long as it has willpower a shadow tank/dps and/or a sage healer/dps will roll on it. Why? because if it contains one mod improvement for ANY of their gear they see it as an upgrade.

You have to realize that it isn't just an issue of sharing gear.

Let's I'm playing a shadow TANK and my orange HEAD GEAR sucks. I run a a flash point and an orange CHEST with HIGH WILLPOWER AND ALACRITY drops. It isn't an upgrade from my current chest piece, but I roll against my healer and dps for it and win. I then take out the mod and use it to replace the mod in my helmet.

 

I should also make it a point that the people defending this current itemization system may not see a problem, and may love it. I am happy for you. There are several people out there that do see it as a problem and these people will not play SWOR as long as it exist.

 

To say what others have in a less douchy and elitist tone, at level 50 this is really not much of an issue and since leveling is such a small part of most players total playtime (assuming they stick with the game for a reasonable stretch) this is a low priority problem to fix. The game has much more pressing issues that are greatly impacting the population at 50 and these items need to be addressed first. The fact that a few greedy ********s will role on gear they don't really need just because it is a slight upgrade for them is unfortunate, but overall is a small problem in the greater scheme.

[Canemuto]

So what I am getting from all of these replies is, "it's cool for me to roll on any gear I want for myself and/or my companion because the gear is really easy to replace, AS LONG AS I don't do it at level 50."

 

Well then... gearing up my companion just got a lot easier. Sorry in advance to all the troopers out there who wind up in a Flash Point with my healer, but Qyzen needs his aim/endurance gear. Then again, I'm not sorry because after reading the replies in this post you will all understand and if you play a trooper and want to roll on willpower gear for your companion go for it.

Thanks to everyone who took the time to reply. Please don't bother trying to recant or to add caveats to your previous post. Clicking "Submit Reply" before thinking things completely through is the mantra of the forum poster. Flame on.

[Tatile]

I don't believe anyone's mentioned companions in this thread, but ok. Just let people know when you party with them that you'll be rolling on upgrades for your companions, it's the least you can do.

[VanorDM]

"it's cool for me to roll on any gear I want for myself and/or my companion because the gear is really easy to replace, AS LONG AS I don't do it at level 50."

 

To a point that's very true. Gear at lvl 30 isn't that big of a deal. You can mods as good as anything you find in a drop from crafters or buy with planet commns. You get plenty of gear for companions from doing the various quests as well.

 

So honestly until you get into end game, there is very little gear that actually matters much. You can get from 1st to 50th using nothing but green gear if you want.

[Darthshnooky]

So what I am getting from all of these replies is, "it's cool for me to roll on any gear I want for myself and/or my companion because the gear is really easy to replace, AS LONG AS I don't do it at level 50."

 

Well then... gearing up my companion just got a lot easier. Sorry in advance to all the troopers out there who wind up in a Flash Point with my healer, but Qyzen needs his aim/endurance gear. Then again, I'm not sorry because after reading the replies in this post you will all understand and if you play a trooper and want to roll on willpower gear for your companion go for it.

Thanks to everyone who took the time to reply. Please don't bother trying to recant or to add caveats to your previous post. Clicking "Submit Reply" before thinking things completely through is the mantra of the forum poster. Flame on.

 

No one said anything about companions. If you screw over another player for your companion, then you're just a ******, plain and simple. We were trying to explain to you that pre-50, the gear you have isn't a huge deal. If you are worried about a Shadow taking gear, don't bring along a shadow. There are 6 classes that DON'T share your primary stat, so choose one of them to fill the other 3 slots in your group. But that's not the same as taking gear from a player for your companion -- that's just a complete strawman argument.

[jmsutton]

Do people actually roll for any gear pre-50? On my alts, Legacy Orange gear (purchasable with credits), crafted orange gear from a higher-level alt, planetary commendations for mods/enhancements. And done. I don't think ony either of the two low level toons I'm playing now that I've used a single piece of dropped loot since level 15.

[Infalliable]

So what I am getting from all of these replies is, "it's cool for me to roll on any gear I want for myself and/or my companion because the gear is really easy to replace, AS LONG AS I don't do it at level 50."

 

Being greedy really has nothing to do with how the gear is itemized.

 

Very few people will roll on companion gear, and it is considering inappropriate by most groups. It is not that big an issue overall.

 

Personally, I think it's a benefit that players (multiple classes even) and companions can wear the same gear. If gear was super restricted to class and role, you'd have that much more junk you couldn't use.