Ohlen admits sage/sorc healing broken

[Annex]

That being said, sorc/sage heals survivability is far more effect than merc when working with a team that can actually protect you, close with ops because of the utilities they have as well as most of their heals being instant along with vanish/white damage immunity.

 

Its not even close to an Op, they can heal on the run and have CDs for when they get focused. Merc is closer for sure but they do have a defensive CD and better base survivability.

 

You're now suggesting that the game should only be balanced for team play. In which case why are we being forced to Pug WZs?

 

As far as utility goes, you only have great utility if you cross spec, then you lose healing output. Currently tho, I agree, cross spec is FAR more overall effective.

 

The base issue here is the across board increase in DPS not really class balance. I think the nerfs to sorcs went a little far (increase in DI cast time specifically) but the real damage was done in the TTK changes which made spike, mobility and DPS king. The fact that sorc is one of the least mobile classes (now made even less mobile due to DI) just magnifies these effects for the class.

[Varicite]

I get what both of you are saying and I know I'm in the minority here but isn't what happened balanced? The healer did nothing but heal himself, the DPS did nothing but DPS the player. Two customer paying the same amount of money for the same service, playing oposing roles, played their hearts out and resulted in a stalemate. Why should it go either way?

 

You are saying DPSing one player is boring but is stuck healing oneself for a whole Warzone considered envigorating by people that don't play healers? It's equally as boring. The solution shouldn't be it should be fun for one and frustrating for the other though. I guess one is 2 people bored and the other at least has one person having fun. Both boredom and frustration lead to unsubing so maybe that's why it is the way it is. Maybe the writing is on the wall and we just dont want to read it, that if people consider stalemates boring that every MMO whatever is does will fail.

 

Also Stoney you called healing a "Force mutiplier" .... can you please explain what you mean by this in math? What exactly is getting mutiplied? A heal just heals a person and if he was near death he hopefully lives to do one more GCD of damage. The person he was fighting possibly dies because the healer healed his buddy. Going foward from here the dead's guy team is short one person doing damage and it's a 7 vs 8. This is no different than 2 people attacking one person and killing him before he kills one.

 

So far there has been no mutiplication at all in either situation .... what does this "Force Mutiplier" phrase mean and why is it a healer thing?

 

Finally Varicite I noticed you shared with us how you would stalemate against OPs and Commandos pre 1.2 . You didn't mention anything about you against Sages though the thread is about Sorcs/Sage healers being too weak. Where you agreeing Sorcs/Sage healer were too weak and have been even pre 1.2 ? Sorry if you were clear about this in a previous post.

 

Ah, I guess I could have been a bit clearer about Sorcs. The post was more about healing in general, as I have commented earlier in the thread more specifically about Sorcs.

 

I felt that they were excellent when stacked pre-1.2, but terribly weak when left unprotected by teammates. The same still holds true today, imo. Cross-healing one another, Sorcs were pretty much an unstoppable force; I don't believe this was a case of SORC being a problem, however, as a lot of other ACs share this kind of "OP synergy".

 

1v1, I'm pretty sure that only Merc/Commando DPS had a problem killing Sorc healers (but Merc/Commando dps is arguably the worst 1v1 class in the game), and everyone else made fairly short work of them.

 

Their HEALING was never too weak, but their mechanics simply allowed enemy players to effectively shut them down by forcing them to kite or die.

 

Merc/Commandos have the uninterruptable shield, Ops have instant cast HoTs and mobility, but Sorc mechanics rely on hard casts and channels on top of kiting. It's just not a great fit for PvP w/out team support.

 

You can kinda spec to offset this issue as a hybrid, and either become a bit harder to kill, or pressure enemy players yourself, but as a pure 31 spec.. I think Sorc is a bit weak now.

Edited May 24, 2012 by Varicite

[LancelotOC]

That's kind of funny in a way.. we're the best kiting class that's also the least mobile.

 

The falsehood of coarse is that we are not a Kiting class as by Kite class we always traditionally meant a class that could keep a distance and kill people while they couldn't attack back. What we are is a class with an escape mechanism that entails running away instead of a super shield or stealth for example.

Edited May 24, 2012 by LancelotOC

[Gomex]

Its not even close to an Op, they can heal on the run and have CDs for when they get focused. Merc is closer for sure but they do have a defensive CD and better base survivability.

 

You're now suggesting that the game should only be balanced for team play. In which case why are we being forced to Pug WZs?

 

As far as utility goes, you only have great utility if you cross spec, then you lose healing output. Currently tho, I agree, cross spec is FAR more overall effective.

 

The base issue here is the across board increase in DPS not really class balance. I think the nerfs to sorcs went a little far (increase in DI cast time specifically) but the real damage was done in the TTK changes which made spike, mobility and DPS king. The fact that sorc is one of the least mobile classes (now made even less mobile due to DI) just magnifies these effects for the class.

 

Now we're talking, actually making points

 

Ya we gain a 3 second root with aoe knockback if we cross spec

 

But we also lose the ability to heal others/ourselves while LoS to mitigate focus fire

 

Not only that, we lose valuable globals to keep others alive while we need those globals to keep ourselves alive while being focused fired. As well as to regain force with a few globals without and worries of current hp

 

Yes the game should be balanced for team play. Especially when the only pvp matters is based on 8 player's teamwork to win.(or supposed to matter for rated if it ever comes out)

 

Ya I'm not denying your statements about ops and merc. For sure they have better survivability on their own. But when you're able to receive teamwork from others with peels and buff such as guards...you're even able to stand out more than mercs. I'm not going to say we're better than ops. But I'm also not going to say we're worse than them...it goes back to the old comparing apples and oranges. Bubbles are clutch, especially being instant. But so are ops instant abilities. Knockbacks are game changers, but so are aoe flashbangs.

 

I'm not saying the forcebending proc nerf on dark infusion was legit. It just made us more reliant on guard and other's teamplay to bring the results. Sad thing is that most of the people crying for buff were the same people who took advantage of the forcebending exploit of getting 2 dark infusion 1.5 sec from one proc and knew nothing else on how to survive or keep others alive. The nerf simply made us more aware of incoming damage to make up for the loss rather than realizing somebody is low on health and topping them off in 3 seconds

Edited May 24, 2012 by Gomex

[Annex]

A guarded op or merc is at least as hard to kill as a sorc and they can't be shut down by 1/2 dps.

 

I have yet to see a situation (except against terrible teams that let you freecast) where an Op or (to a lesser extent) merc is less effective than an equivalent skilled/geared sorc. They put put similar numbers and can actually put out healing when on the move or when focused.

 

Mobility is now simply too important now for the static casting class to work. The 1.2 changes made a healer standing still (as sorc/sages HAVE to do to heal) far too easy of a target. To be competitive with the other heal ACs with current TTK sorc/sages need more mobility. Realistically TTK just needs adjusting and suddenly the class needs only minor tweaks (like DI readjusting).

 

As an aside, I also have a 50 jugg in BM gear so I regularly see it from the other perspective. When *I* see a sorc on my jugg the 1st thing i do it attack it 90% of the time. I know at very worst he will be forced to kite me for 45s or so (effectively taking him out of the game), more often it I also know i can get damage medals from him super easily and likely an easy kill.

 

If hes guarded then great, I get to hurt the tank and the sorc as he is still forced to heal himself and kite.

 

Perhaps its because I know what sorcs don't like but tbh I find them almost free kills even tho my juggs only in BM but to me, it just feels like night and day between the 2 chars.

[Gomex]

A guarded op or merc is at least as hard to kill as a sorc and they can't be shut down by 1/2 dps.

 

I have yet to see a situation (except against terrible teams that let you freecast) where an Op or (to a lesser extent) merc is less effective than an equivalent skilled/geared sorc. They put put similar numbers and can actually put out healing when on the move or when focused.

 

Mobility is now simply too important now for the static casting class to work. The 1.2 changes made a healer standing still (as sorc/sages HAVE to do to heal) far too easy of a target. To be competitive with the other heal ACs with current TTK sorc/sages need more mobility. Realistically TTK just needs adjusting and suddenly the class needs only minor tweaks (like DI readjusting).

 

As an aside, I also have a 50 jugg in BM gear so I regularly see it from the other perspective. When *I* see a sorc on my jugg the 1st thing i do it attack it 90% of the time. I know at very worst he will be forced to kite me for 45s or so (effectively taking him out of the game), more often it I also know i can get damage medals from him super easily and likely an easy kill.

 

If hes guarded then great, I get to hurt the tank and the sorc as he is still forced to heal himself and kite.

 

Perhaps its because I know what sorcs don't like but tbh I find them almost free kills even tho my juggs only in BM but to me, it just feels like night and day between the 2 chars.

 

Don't compare a bad sorc who isn't able to survive from one jug dps to a class needing a buff

 

The whole purpose of aoe heal is to bait the first couple of spells that dps always love to interrupt and end up healing yourself as well as others with throwing instant heals for 3k+

 

A merc with guard is overkill unless the whole team is literally trying to focus fire him

 

You're going to tell me a merc can outperform a skilled sorc in keeping the team alive?

 

My server isn't bad, and trust me I've equaled 2 merc heals almost everytime in wz....and yes I've seen merc heals perfom better than 500k+. But those merc heals can only keep themselves and one other target alive

 

Sorc heals has the potential to keep the whole team alive with dishing bubbles in advance

[Ineedavacation]

I've found bubbles to be more important in PVP than healing most of the time. A Sorc healers primary role (with the bubble talented up to 1.5 second cooldown and 20%+ damage reduction and speed buffs) is to apply the bubbles before healing. Outside the bubble we are one shots but inside we are decent tanks for a few seconds.

 

Learn to "live in the bubble" and keep it applied to your teammates. Sorc healing is really all about timing in general.

 

Another skill I have learned slowly (lvl 48 now) is to anticipate healing. Too often at lower levels I would just look at the "negative" in the ham bar and not anticipate damage. Resurg and Reviv are amazing when you time the heal to hit before damage.

 

Creating space is more accurate than "kiting" when it comes to a Sorc healer. Learn to use your stuns in combo with force speed to get out when the bubble wears off and your being focused. LOS is your next best friend.

 

The most annoying class to deal with are the Jedi melee, using their charges to stick to you like glue. Only thing I can say to this problem is to knock-back in combo with force speed, stunning first if available. It is ridiculously bad when two melees are on you, we need some more CC capability with a better root to have more balance. Either that or lower the bubble from 20 seconds between benefit (or at least give us some way to talent it down a bit).

[wolfmith]

I just love to see all these people talking that I should do things I already do and I still think the class needs a rebalance between it's defensive abilities and casts.

[laiboch]

My only issue with Sorc/Sage healing is that they have to sacrifice over all healing ability to gain the same survivability that other healers have in a full healing build.

My Ops healer at half the level has more survivability built into the class. My Ops can CC someone for 28 seconds.... I have better Hots almost endless mobility much better escape options and the ability to dish out really decent 1v1 damage. If things get really hot I have a Oh shat! button and Poof I purge all negative effects and vanish only to pop up somewhere else and start dishing out more HoT's.

 

It seems to me that a few of the survival abilities in the Lightning (Middle) tree should have been in the healing tree, but that's just an observation. I do not understand why all of the Defensive abilities that would have made a Sorc/Sage on par defensively are built into a DPS tree that really is the worst DPS tree I have seen in any class. Why not move the 2 second stun after their bubble breaks to the healing tree? or the knock back root? Abilities that do not do damage, but allow the healer to actually function should not require them to sacrifice their top end healing abilities to get. If anything Lightning should be buffed a bit and those defensive abilities should be moved to the healing tree so that if a DPS wants to gain some defensive ability they have to sacrifice damage not the other way around.

 

A healer should be hard to kill, but not be able to dish out a lot of damage. Its an exchange. They might be able to keep them self up 1v1 against a DPS but not be able to do much if any healing to their team. It seems to me more that Bioware does not understand how to balance classes and this is probably due to lack of communication between the Dev teams that work on each class. If the right hand has no idea what the left hand is doing then its really hard to make a balanced environment.

[Bolanos]

I've found bubbles to be more important in PVP than healing most of the time. A Sorc healers primary role (with the bubble talented up to 1.5 second cooldown and 20%+ damage reduction and speed buffs) is to apply the bubbles before healing. Outside the bubble we are one shots but inside we are decent tanks for a few seconds.

 

Learn to "live in the bubble" and keep it applied to your teammates. Sorc healing is really all about timing in general.

 

Another skill I have learned slowly (lvl 48 now)

 

Sorry, I stopped reading here. I mean no disrespect but you can't compare your sage at level 48 to level 50 gameplay. At level 50 you can't "live in the bubble". You cast the bubble on yourself and your teammates, but in the 50's all the other classes are hitting so hard that many times, they break the bubble in one shot and I still take some damage. In the RARE cases when my bubble doesn't come down in one shot is because I'm up against another sage/sorc since we don't hit that hard. When you hit 50 you'll understand what I mean. Think of a pillow fight, where sage/sorc are the dumb ones that actually bring pillows, everyone else brings bricks, bats, sledge hammers, ect. Then everyone say's learn to play, you have to kite, easy for them to say when pratically ALL of our spells require us to stand still for 1.5 to 3 seconds cast. Then they say, learn to play, you have to use force run, so I use force run just so the enemy can either root me down as he jumps at me, or they stun me, effectively stopping my 'running away', which by the way is oh so much fun! I use to love level 48 and 49, I felt godly until I was hit with the ugly reality of level 50 pvp. It almost feels like at level 50 all other classes get a superhero buff in their damage while the redheaded stepchild (sage/sorc) was left out of the buff. And sage more then sorc because of our stupid animation delays. Again, nothing personal to you, it's just a different game at 50, that expertise makes one hell of a big deal.

[LancelotOC]

I was also going to say what Bolanoa said but I didnt want to burst your bubble.. Bazinga!

 

This is how it all goes down.. you cast bubble.. they cast overpowered DPS ability and bubble is gone. In that extra GCD while bubble was up you hopefully moved 6 range, or whatever it is you moved. You have to make sure you broke LOS. That's why what you really need to anticipate is not healing but the assist train that is a choo- chooing to you by waiting near an object you can break LOS with.

 

You can only anticipate healing if no one is hunting you. They all will be hunting you come 50.

 

You are right in that bubbling others is the way you do it. That followed by the HOT and then the cleanse is all you really can do for others most times if the match is competitive. You won't use the other heals unless they let you cast and that really only happens when you are winning already.

[Gomex]

I was also going to say what Bolanoa said but I didnt want to burst your bubble.. Bazinga!

 

This is how it all goes down.. you cast bubble.. they cast overpowered DPS ability and bubble is gone. In that extra GCD while bubble was up you hopefully moved 6 range, or whatever it is you moved. You have to make sure you broke LOS. That's why what you really need to anticipate is not healing but the assist train that is a choo- chooing to you by waiting near an object you can break LOS with.

 

You can only anticipate healing if no one is hunting you. They all will be hunting you come 50.

 

You are right in that bubbling others is the way you do it. That followed by the HOT and then the cleanse is all you really can do for others most times if the match is competitive. You won't use the other heals unless they let you cast and that really only happens when you are winning already.

 

 

Don't forget you can have stronger bubbles by using power relic+adrenal...rarely see people bubble spam with relic before a big 5v5 battle

[pathiss]

There isnt a sorcerer alive that will out heal my operative when we are both under fire. I love all the speculation from people with experience with one or none of the classes, but I play and have played all three extensively. I can tell you hands down that an operative is superior across the board to a sorcerer, unless that sorcerer quite literally gets left alone for an entire warzone because they do have higher bandwidth. The problem is they have vastly inferior throughput under fire... and that is the majority of the situations against half way decent opponents.

[Gomex]

There isnt a sorcerer alive that will out heal my operative when we are both under fire. I love all the speculation from people with experience with one or none of the classes, but I play and have played all three extensively. I can tell you hands down that an operative is superior across the board to a sorcerer, unless that sorcerer quite literally gets left alone for an entire warzone because they do have higher bandwidth. The problem is they have vastly inferior throughput under fire... and that is the majority of the situations against half way decent opponents.

 

 

Too hard to judge from experience from one server...and most likely a dead one, no offense

 

It's like saying I haven't been outhealed by an op on my server since the patch came out which is true. Especially with all the op rerolls thinking they would be the next big thing before patch came out and dissing me how I'm gonna be **** after patch.

 

Anyone who comes close to me all end up saying "lol they need to nerf sorc more"

 

Of course ops have better survivability, so it may look like they're able to do more considering they're able instant heal and keep themselves up while having globals to heal others as better defensive cds.

 

That being said, a sorc who can't survive for more than 5 globals will look far inferior. Especially one that doesn't know how to position or predict incoming interrupts and spam their next ability.

 

But I find sorc bubbles to be too clutch in healing teammates being under hard fire from opponent cds....now if you add an op healing to the mix...that's a huge potential to be one sexy team with dps who knows what they're doing.

 

If you're able to recognize a class's weakness and strengthen it, you're going to outperform those who just cry for a buff.

 

They just compliment each other too much to really say one is better than the other

[LancelotOC]

There is a situation where you do get to heal as a Sorc. Occasionally you'll fight a group that is low on healers and reverses the strategy by focusing your DPS instead. Without DPS you can't kill their healers.

 

You have to watch for this. You loook at heal bars anyways. If you see people faking to attack you just to make you run then bouncing back to your DPS be ready to commit to spamming your DPS heal as much as you can.

 

Dont let those willy DPS get you running away solo.

 

When you see that DPS Charge at you and the minute you turn to run, even though you have half health, turn to jump on your DPS and you know the player is too smart to let a healer get away... remember .....

[Annex]

Too hard to judge from experience from one server...and most likely a dead one, no offense

 

It's like saying I haven't been outhealed by an op on my server since the patch came out which is true. Especially with all the op rerolls thinking they would be the next big thing before patch came out and dissing me how I'm gonna be **** after patch.

 

Anyone who comes close to me all end up saying "lol they need to nerf sorc more"

 

Of course ops have better survivability, so it may look like they're able to do more considering they're able instant heal and keep themselves up while having globals to heal others as better defensive cds.

 

That being said, a sorc who can't survive for more than 5 globals will look far inferior. Especially one that doesn't know how to position or predict incoming interrupts and spam their next ability.

 

But I find sorc bubbles to be too clutch in healing teammates being under hard fire from opponent cds....now if you add an op healing to the mix...that's a huge potential to be one sexy team with dps who knows what they're doing.

 

If you're able to recognize a class's weakness and strengthen it, you're going to outperform those who just cry for a buff.

 

They just compliment each other too much to really say one is better than the other

 

Look, perhaps you're right and you are god's gift to MMOs. I know that 31 corruption on my server is not viable as we have mdps who will focus and harrass you instantly and without the cross spec ccs you are dead. Period. Perhaps you're better than me, perhaps your server is worse. Who knows?

 

Still... should a class be balanced around the top 0.5% or the top 20%? Fairly obvious that top players can still do well with bad classes.

 

Imo the classes should be balanced around the top quartile (ie people who are not bads but not the absolute elite).

 

(FYI I still do fine on my sorc too, its just that I have to try 2-3 times as hard to do as well as I do on my worse geared jugg - that doesnt strike me as right).

Edited May 26, 2012 by Annex

[pathiss]

Too hard to judge from experience from one server...and most likely a dead one, no offense

 

No offense, since you are incapable of reading. I play all three healers extensively. I know damn well the benefits and weakness of them, and exactly why an operative is superior to a sorcerer now ESPECIALLY under fire, as I sai. My server isn't dead either ....yet. My sub is running out though

[Laforet]

Don't forget you can have stronger bubbles by using power relic+adrenal...rarely see people bubble spam with relic before a big 5v5 battle

 

We dont have the exact means to be sure yet but everything indicates bubble does not scale with force power (or power).

 

Some people say bubble does not scale at all (just skill ranks) and some people says bubble scales with HP, but all tests indicate that bubble does not scale with willpower/force power/heal power whatsoever.

 

Bear in mind were not sure but my tests in duels with a fellow scoundrel and combat log observing shows me that my bubble does not get stronger when i spike adrenals.

[Laforet]

Look, perhaps you're right and you are god's gift to MMOs. I know that 31 corruption on my server is not viable as we have mdps who will focus and harrass you instantly and without the cross spec ccs you are dead. Period. Perhaps you're better than me, perhaps your server is worse. Who knows?

 

Still... should a class be balanced around the top 0.5% or the top 20%? Fairly obvious that top players can still do well with bad classes.

 

Imo the classes should be balanced around the top quartile (ie people who are not bads but not the absolute elite).

 

(FYI I still do fine on my sorc too, its just that I have to try 2-3 times as hard to do as well as I do on my worse geared jugg - that doesnt strike me as right).

 

 

Hes not the god gift of mmos, he thinks 115k damage over a 15 min voidstar means hes being focused. Hes not.

 

He also does not pay attention to basic mechanics of his class, see his comments about adrenal bubble spamming, while every seasoned sorc seems to know that bubble is terrible at scaling, we have doubts if it even scales at all besides skill ranks.

 

He also thinks that aoe heal spam is actually a professional and 100% viable strategy for pvp, it is not.

 

He uses terms like "juke" and "los" loosely, because in wow every gladiator talks about it, but juking/fakecasting is a different animal in swtor since interrupts locks ONE skill and not silence blanket you. Interrupt and stun baiting is more effective in this game, not that we arent supposed to fakecast, =p.

 

I wouldnt be surprised if he didnt play a sorcerer after all.

[Laforet]

There isnt a sorcerer alive that will out heal my operative when we are both under fire. I love all the speculation from people with experience with one or none of the classes, but I play and have played all three extensively. I can tell you hands down that an operative is superior across the board to a sorcerer, unless that sorcerer quite literally gets left alone for an entire warzone because they do have higher bandwidth. The problem is they have vastly inferior throughput under fire... and that is the majority of the situations against half way decent opponents.

 

This man speaks the truth.

[wolfmith]

well, I just hope they see all these 20 pages plus topics and realize their metrics don't show the reality...

[Ntranced]

well, I just hope they see all these 20 pages plus topics and realize their metrics don't show the reality...

 

The problem isn't the metrics, it is the people interpreting them or how they are being interpreted. Devs need to get away from the metrics unless an issue is clear cut. Which is going to be rare.

 

As someone pointed out earlier, the bubble root, blind on bubble break etc needs to be in the healing tree. In addition the bubble needs to have some scaling. I'd argue that Sorc AoE heal needs to be changed to be more than a useless cast on the ground save for the odd voidstar or rare situation too - currently you might as well leave it out and spec in to bubble root/blind through lightning and at least then you can also do some damage too with CL instant, FL 1.5 second channel etc.

 

The lightning tree by and large is poor but I can see the devs problem here - effectively allowing healers to drop a very poor AoE heal and go reasonably high in lightning means a Sorc Heal/Lightning hybrid if the lightning tree had any decent damage would probably over power the class.

 

I'd go as far as saying all three sorc 31 point skills are pretty much below par. There is a reason whatever way you play the class hybrid has (since beta) been the way to play sorc/sage.