>> How To Nerf Marauders Without Losing Subscriber Base

[syntxerr]

Doesn't mean you can't heal...

 

So you have just confirmed what I said above:

 

That's what I'll tell you about Marauders once they're on the ground and have to flee from everyone just looking at them and justify it with the fact that you can still DPS when you follow all the others and attack their targets.

 

And yet all you had to say to this was "lol", because obviously you wouldn't want that and obviously it would be ridiculous and I'm sure you wouldn't have any fun playing the game if that was the case.

 

So have some decency and stop being ignorant, please.

[Odahviin]

Redesign Undeying Rage / Guarded By The Force:

• Reduce All Damage Taken -AND- Healing Received by 99%
  or
  
• Reduce Damage Done by 50% for it's duration
  or
  
• Deflect Either White -OR- Yellow damage abilities for the duration, Not Both[/u].
  or
  
• Make the interrupt ability cost 2 rage & decrease the duration of the 20% heal debuff
  

 

A marauder at say 2k health that uses this cooldown feels like there is no risk involved in the 50% health sacrifice (ok I am at 2k, so I am going to die anyway, lets sacrifice 1k health which is irrelevant at this point) and then is healed to or above 50% or has about 3 extra globals to finish off their target whom cannot do damage to them and has to sit through it. There is no other class in this game that has an almost 99% immunity cooldown to both White & Yellow Damage attacks.

 

Examples:

Assassin Defensive Cooldown Force Shroud - Only stops Yellow Damage (Tech) for a few seconds

 

Imperial Agent Defensive Cooldown Evasion - Dodges all White Damage (Melee/Ranged) for a few seconds

 

The Marauder cooldown should mimic one of the above so that they are still killable just like everyonebody else. As it stands now, you can beat a marauder 1v1 by LOSing during their defensive cooldowns and or CCing them during it. However, a team of say 6marauders and 2healers vs 6ranged and 2healers will present a significant problem due to the 20% healing reduction, multiple defensive cooldowns, and everytime they vanish, your target becomes another marauder with the same defensive cooldowns up, and they can interrupt and lockout ranged classes from doing their damage. Obviously, 6 of any class will be hard to go against, but especially classes with multiple defensive cooldowns to delay death. 6marauders on a team might be an extreme case, but I imagine seeing 3-4 on many teams.

 

I do believe that making some of these changes will not drop your marauder subscription numbers and should prevent a larger group of subscribers from canceling their subscriptions from Marauder QQ.

 

I don't have alot of time so I'll make this quick

 

Your examples are irrelevant

 

both those classes are stealth which is WHY they don't have an ability like UR

 

gasp!

[Altruismo]

You're allowing the healer to do his job are you not?

 

Sigh, L2P again. Classy.

 

Here, I'll simplify it for you.

UR/GBTF has a 50% health cost attached to it, it seems obvious to me that this was intended to be a balancing feature for an extremely powerful defensive cooldown.

In practice however, at the end of that 5 seconds, any half decent Mara/Sent has more health than he had before he bubbled up, be that independantly from a WZ pack and/or his own heals, or from an external source, or both.

Now, that 50% cost is either a balancing feature, or it's not.

If it's not, then why is it even there?

If it is, then what's the point?

[Xerain]

Sigh, L2P again. Classy.

 

Here, I'll simplify it for you.

UR/GBTF has a 50% health cost attached to it, it seems obvious to me that this was intended to be a balancing feature for an extremely powerful defensive cooldown.

In practice however, at the end of that 5 seconds, any half decent Mara/Sent has more health than he had before he bubbled up, be that independantly from a WZ pack and/or his own heals, or from an external source, or both.

Now, that 50% cost is either a balancing feature, or it's not.

If it's not, then why is it even there?

If it is, then what's the point?

 

well sometimes medpacks aren't always up or a healer isn't always around so i'm left with even less health. Think of those variables or did you only thing of the ones that would benefit your argument?

[Xerain]

If you start counting after the charge lands, it is getting pretty close. Also no one says that you start from 0 rage.

 

oh ok so it's in 5 seconds when the marauder already has 4 stacks of shockwave up and a crit buff after the charge and obliterate with 3 rage and he walks up to you uses ravage and then smashes and you're dead huh? In that perfect world that always happens.

[Xerain]

So you have just confirmed what I said above:

 

 

 

And yet all you had to say to this was "lol", because obviously you wouldn't want that and obviously it would be ridiculous and I'm sure you wouldn't have any fun playing the game if that was the case.

 

So have some decency and stop being ignorant, please.

 

You're comparing 1v1's and QQ'ing about losing. Sorc/sage healing nerfs weren't that bad I know a few sorcs that do really well despite the fact that they were nerfed and they don't just insta die like you claim.

 

"I died as a healer! nerf nerf nerf nerf" <that's your argument.

[TheLordMagnus]

I am now convinced Marauders are in desperate need of a buff, and Sage/Sorc need to be nerfed severely. All I ever see on these forums is how Marauders always die and Sorc/Sage win all the time. I also see that allegedly Powertech is OPed, so just nerf their asses too.

 

what a load of crap i play mara sorcc and jugg i would say my best class is mara for pure damage sorcc dps lightning tree for support damage

and my jug well vengence spec 1 on 1 everybodie dies muhahahahaha

i read a post just a few befoure yours and aggred with him operatives and their stealth atack bullcrap 2 of themon a node = very hard time if u get hit buy 2 or 3 maras u gana die same if my sorcc and 2 other sorcc hit u 3 players on one means death simple

[syntxerr]

You're comparing 1v1's and QQ'ing about losing. Sorc/sage healing nerfs weren't that bad I know a few sorcs that do really well despite the fact that they were nerfed and they don't just insta die like you claim.

 

"I died as a healer! nerf nerf nerf nerf" <that's your argument.

 

No that's not my argument at all. From your replies it becomes obvious that you're not playing said healing class and yet you persist on your claims, which are simply false, sorry.

 

It has nothing to do with dying as a healer it has something to do with dying every time you end up in a solo situation, which happens. If Seers do fine at the moment this is solely due to their team protecting them and paying attention. That's true but besides the point I'm making.

 

And yet, by your own comment you are once again reconfirming what I said before. If you wouldn't be able to kill anything solo and dropping like a fly, you could still do 'fine' by following the rest of your team and throwing out some DPS. The scoreboards would reflect that. And yet it wouldn't be much fun for you, would it?

 

Just look at how vigorously you are defending Marauders in this thread. You can't tell me otherwise because even in your currently extremely strong position you are trying to retain it. So yes, sorry, you've got easy talking from you position and you're being ignorant.

[Kabaal]

Cloak of pain being changed to a set duration would go a long way to alleviating some of the concerns. It's already on a very short 60 second cooldown and most defensive abilities are 2-3 minutes where it is 60 seconds, constantly refreshing really isn't necessary and they have other cooldowns to fill gaps. Guarded by the Force/Rebuke is fine, one CC takes care of it, sure it's a pain in the *** if all your abilities are on cooldown but when they're not it's a non factor. Perhaps a longer cooldown on it.

 

DPS should be left the same.

[Xerain]

No that's not my argument at all. From your replies it becomes obvious that you're not playing said healing class and yet you persist on your claims, which are simply false, sorry.

 

It has nothing to do with dying as a healer it has something to do with dying every time you end up in a solo situation, which happens. If Seers do fine at the moment this is solely due to their team protecting them and paying attention. That's true but besides the point I'm making.

 

And yet, by your own comment you are once again reconfirming what I said before. If you wouldn't be able to kill anything solo and dropping like a fly, you could still do 'fine' by following the rest of your team and throwing out some DPS. The scoreboards would reflect that. And yet it wouldn't be much fun for you, would it?

 

Just look at how vigorously you are defending Marauders in this thread. You can't tell me otherwise because even in your currently extremely strong position you are trying to retain it. So yes, sorry, you've got easy talking from you position and you're being ignorant.

 

you're a healer, why are you putting yourself in 1v1 situations is what i want to know? All the good sorc healers i know will just try to kite me back into a group or LOS to get away while they call for help. Not duke it out against me. You're putting yourself a bad spot and you want another class nerfed because of it?

 

I actually play MMO's for the community and friends and team play involved in them. If I can contribute to the team and we win then yes it is fun. I can die 15 times in a match and not care as long as we get that win.

[Altruismo]

well sometimes medpacks aren't always up or a healer isn't always around so i'm left with even less health. Think of those variables or did you only thing of the ones that would benefit your argument?

 

Sometimes you'll get CC'd through the entire UR and not be able to do anything at all.

When I say "Almost Invariably" I don't mean "every time".

All the same, since 1.2 WZ and medpacks went to a 90 second cooldown though, It became more of a "your fault" issue for Maras that don't have the pack available for UR. Sure you can choose to use it some other time, but don't then cry foul because you don't have it ready when you UR.

Of course, they can spec to reduce the UR cooldown too, but even with unsyncing the medpack, more UR is a "better UR" so it's kind of a trade.

It's not about benefitting my argument anyway - my "argument" is pretty simple:

 

If you can have more health at the end of UR than you had before you used it, what's the point of the 50% health cost?

[Xerain]

what a load of crap i play mara sorcc and jugg i would say my best class is mara for pure damage sorcc dps lightning tree for support damage

and my jug well vengence spec 1 on 1 everybodie dies muhahahahaha

i read a post just a few befoure yours and aggred with him operatives and their stealth atack bullcrap 2 of themon a node = very hard time if u get hit buy 2 or 3 maras u gana die same if my sorcc and 2 other sorcc hit u 3 players on one means death simple

 

I ran over to a node in alderaan because there was no one visible there "eh so what one stealthy won't be a problem" i thought... Yeah i got opened up on by an op and then right after a shadow opened up on me... I didn't get to react period.

[OpenSorce]

Redesign Undeying Rage / Guarded By The Force:

• Reduce All Damage Taken -AND- Healing Received by 99%
  or
  
• Reduce Damage Done by 50% for it's duration
  or
  
• Deflect Either White -OR- Yellow damage abilities for the duration, Not Both[/u].
  or
  
• Make the interrupt ability cost 2 rage & decrease the duration of the 20% heal debuff
  

 

A marauder at say 2k health that uses this cooldown feels like there is no risk involved in the 50% health sacrifice (ok I am at 2k, so I am going to die anyway, lets sacrifice 1k health which is irrelevant at this point) and then is healed to or above 50% or has about 3 extra globals to finish off their target whom cannot do damage to them and has to sit through it. There is no other class in this game that has an almost 99% immunity cooldown to both White & Yellow Damage attacks.

 

Examples:

Assassin Defensive Cooldown Force Shroud - Only stops Yellow Damage (Tech) for a few seconds

 

Imperial Agent Defensive Cooldown Evasion - Dodges all White Damage (Melee/Ranged) for a few seconds

 

The Marauder cooldown should mimic one of the above so that they are still killable just like everyonebody else. As it stands now, you can beat a marauder 1v1 by LOSing during their defensive cooldowns and or CCing them during it. However, a team of say 6marauders and 2healers vs 6ranged and 2healers will present a significant problem due to the 20% healing reduction, multiple defensive cooldowns, and everytime they vanish, your target becomes another marauder with the same defensive cooldowns up, and they can interrupt and lockout ranged classes from doing their damage. Obviously, 6 of any class will be hard to go against, but especially classes with multiple defensive cooldowns to delay death. 6marauders on a team might be an extreme case, but I imagine seeing 3-4 on many teams.

 

I do believe that making some of these changes will not drop your marauder subscription numbers and should prevent a larger group of subscribers from canceling their subscriptions from Marauder QQ.

 

For the 100th time: Just because you can no longer roflstomp a formerly weak class does not mean it needs a nerf. Marauders are finally balanced. They don't need to be adjusted. You learned to fight the ranged tanks in heavy armor that we call Bounty Hunters, learn to fight Marauders.

[syntxerr]

you're a healer, why are you putting yourself in 1v1 situations is what i want to know? All the good sorc healers i know will just try to kite me back into a group or LOS to get away while they call for help. Not duke it out against me. You're putting yourself a bad spot and you want another class nerfed because of it?

 

I actually play MMO's for the community and friends and team play involved in them. If I can contribute to the team and we win then yes it is fun. I can die 15 times in a match and not care as long as we get that win.

 

I don't want another class nerfed for it, I made a cynical comment initially, because of the high level complaining going on here.

 

Apart from that... why do I put myself in such situations. Well, for one, you can't always choose your groups when pugging. Then you have situations where you are running to antoher node, or where you are returning after respawning and then there are situations where you simply meet another 50 on some planet.

 

There is no written law that says because I play a healer I have to die every time I meet someone else. That's total garbage.

 

Note, noone is asking to nuke down a Marauder as a healer. We're not capable of that. All we're asking for is to be able to survive such a matchup. If you're not able to do that, you're useless. You can't kill, you can't heal. And don't tell me otherwise, because if you'd hit as hard as a Defense specced Guardian, you'd complain as well and say you're not a proper DPS. This has something to do with fun and gameplay.

Edited May 17, 2012 by syntxerr

[Xerain]

Sometimes you'll get CC'd through the entire UR and not be able to do anything at all.

When I say "Almost Invariably" I don't mean "every time".

All the same, since 1.2 WZ and medpacks went to a 90 second cooldown though, It became more of a "your fault" issue for Maras that don't have the pack available for UR. Sure you can choose to use it some other time, but don't then cry foul because you don't have it ready when you UR.

Of course, they can spec to reduce the UR cooldown too, but even with unsyncing the medpack, more UR is a "better UR" so it's kind of a trade.

It's not about benefitting my argument anyway - my "argument" is pretty simple:

 

If you can have more health at the end of UR than you had before you used it, what's the point of the 50% health cost?

 

 

I don't cry when i don't have a medpack ready for UR. How it goes sometimes.

 

I'm a pvp'er sir. I full expect to die.

 

The point? So the marauder isn't jumping in at 100% hp and taking 99% damage reduction for the first 5 seconds of the fight? It's a last stand ability and it's made to be used at lower health to balance that out. Imagine if i could just jump into anywhere and have 5 seconds of 99% damage reduction at no cost every 1min 15sec (45 seconds for rage). I could start off the fight with a massive damage lead (not so much as annihilation but as carnage and rage it'd just be broken) . Atleast this way there is a counter to it and when the marauder gets low (30% range aka execute range) you can stun him and nuke him down through the stun before he even gets to pop it and if he does pop it well you can stun him dot him up and then cast something so when UD drops it for sure kills him.

[Xerain]

I don't want another class nerfed for it, I made a cynical comment initially, because of the high level complaining going on here.

 

Apart from that... why do I put myself in such situations. Well, for one, you can't always choose your groups when pugging. Then you have situations where you are running to antoher node, or where you are returning after respawning and then there are situations where you simply meet another 50 on some planet.

 

There is no written law that says because I play a healer I have to die every time I meet someone else. That's total garbage.

 

Note, noone is asking to nuke down a Marauder as a healer. We're not capable of that. All we're asking for is to be able to survive such a matchup. If you're not able to do that, you're useless. You can't kill, you can't heal. And don't tell me otherwise, because if you'd hit as hard as a Defense specced Guardian, you'd complain as well and say you're not a proper DPS. This has something to do with fun and gameplay.

 

IMO stop pugging, you'll have much more fun with the game and see how much more balanced it is with a good group.

[syntxerr]

IMO stop pugging, you'll have much more fun with the game and see how much more balanced it is with a good group.

 

Hehe, sorry mate, we're not getting anywhere. I understand what you're saying. But again you're confirming what I was saying earlier. You're playing a Mara, I'm sure you're having fun with it. Now imagine you couldn't kill anyone anymore, there'd be no more point in duels, nothing. And then I come along and tell you well, group up with others, you can still DPS then. You'd send me where the pepper grows.

 

Believe it or not, people like healers also like to duel or solo a bit. Just because they're healers it doesn't mean they're victims. Just look at how many DPS it takes in other games to kill a healer. Even pre 1.2 was balanced in such a comparison.

 

Again, that's not even what I'm asking for. I'm merely asking for having a fair chance, as everyone else to survive a 1vs1 or beat the attacker slowly by using my own call role's tools, which are not pure DPS. And just because I like healing in group situations also doesn't mean that I like being cannon fodder for every melee I meet somewhere.

Edited May 17, 2012 by syntxerr

[Xerain]

Hehe, sorry mate, we're not getting anywhere. I understand what you're saying. But again you're confirming what I was saying earlier. You're playing a Mara, I'm sure you're having fun with it. Now imagine you couldn't kill anyone anymore, there'd be no more point in duels, nothing. And then I come along and tell you well, group up with others, you can still DPS then. You'd send me where the pepper grows.

 

Believe it or not, people like healers also like to duel or solo a bit. Just because they're healers it doesn't mean they're victims. Just look at how many DPS it takes in other games to kill a healer. Even pre 1.2 was balanced in such a comparison.

 

Again, that's not even what I'm asking for. I'm merely asking for having a fair chance, as everyone else to survive a 1vs1 or beat the attacker slowly by using my own call role's tools, which are not pure DPS. And just because I like healing in group situations also doesn't mean that I like being cannon fodder for every melee I meet somewhere.

 

There's no point to duels anyways.

 

And don't tell me sorc/sage can't heal anymore when I run premades with a few others that do really well in keeping the team up and playing objectives, oh and a lot of the sage healers on republic side on my server are still around and they do just fine.

 

pre 1.2 i killed healers solo. post 1.2 i kill healers solo.

 

In terms of rating on how hard it is to kill healers... I'll use a "-" to indicate the gap between them because the pure number isn't enough

pre 1.2 healer rating:

1. Mercs/Com

-

2. Sorc/sage

-

-

3. Op/scoundrel

 

Post 1.2 rating

1. Op/scoundrel

2. Merc/com and Sorc/sage.

 

Yeah mercs and sages are about the same now (good ones at least). Sorc/sage has enough escape and utility to run and LOS and keep me busy, the ones that stand there get destroyed like usual.

[Gomex]

"Anyway, when you're done Hi-fiving each other for teaching me a real lesson in what DPS should be mindlessly doing at all costs, at all times, without ever adapting to what's actually happening, you can rush off to one of the many threads where a healer is complaining that it's unfair that he has stop free-casting to try to kite and LOS you. You can explain to him that he needs to L2P, because while you're chasing him around you're not killing anyone and he's staying alive to heal his team.

Jokes on him right, because nobody would ever do damage to anyone else his team while he's in the WZ somewhere - I heard he's at snow, all 8 of us go now!"

 

Of course there are going to be variables. You make it sound like I don't play a healer or dps and have no clue what I'm talking about. If you're talking about premade, then you need certain class roles to separate them, more aoe around healers with some strong single target dps. If you're talking about pugs...then it's the luck of the draw if you have smart people to counter and you're just wasting your time coming to post about unfairness.

 

I've healed 800k+ countless of times, people on my server know me as the best heals and know if I'm left alone nobody will die. With that being said, I know what it's like to be tunneled by not just one marauder...but 3-4 at a time. In the end I also get most votes for not just breaking healing meters but also playing objectively and healing others more than myself because I know they'll cover the objective while I run back with full force. For example, if I'm running low on force and our team is dying in voidstar, I'll do everything I can to give the tank a bubble,hot/innervate before I die(of course if I'm being tunneled hardcore). Same goes with huttball with ball carriers...same goes with healing sins at cap points defending a tower in civil war.

Other healers just focus too much on not dying and end up losing because they're more concerned about deaths rather than objectives. Then add their bitterness of losing WZ on the forums.

 

Of course I'm not saying to die easily and keep others up, that would just result being less productive as a healer.

 

Now what do you do as a healer when this happens? Make them stray from the objective, take advantage of their tunneling....**** happens and deaths happens often, might as well take advantage.

 

Coming from a pvp server with a lot of multi-glads from WoW arenas, there has been only 2 marauders as dot spec that can actually solo me without me going low on force(sorc heals btw), first one has tons of nice pve gear...the other gets me after trinket is blown/2nd force choke.

 

I'm not saying to play like me...but learn the class a bit better...actually think ahead and predict the opponent's next move. Don't just S key and look at what cd is up ready to click.

 

That being said, marauders are quite easy to control, their highest dps tree(which the majority runs) can be slowed 50% at all times and not do a thing about it. Of course they will do strong dps if left alone..just like healers do strong healing left alone....

 

I really believe self healing on marauders is laughable when it comes to surviving aoe dmg or trying to single out a healer who is surrounded by guard/range dps. 1v1 ya it's nice...but 250 hp ticks isn't gonna save you from 3-4k aoe dmg plus the gazillion snipers tunneling you after your class rolled them on their mains. For example...Novare's Coast...try surviving that cluster **** at the start when everyone is popping their cds and trying to stop caps inside the hut. Or huttball when everyone groups up around the ball carrier and your dps matters most. Or voidstar with all the cluster ****. Even civil war has quite a bit of aoe situations.

 

Fact is, marauders have a higher skill capped and requires more awareness to maintain high dps, the ones that are able to keep their x3 stacks up(massacre I mean) and survive a long time is a challenge, especially with dealing with all the people throwing ccs since you have to be in their face to dps. The ones that are able to keep it up long will end the game with high dps...and probably more thanks to your teammates fault rather than bioware.

 

Ironic we haven't heard one complaint from a sniper eh?

[alcek]

oh ok so it's in 5 seconds when the marauder already has 4 stacks of shockwave up and a crit buff after the charge and obliterate with 3 rage and he walks up to you uses ravage and then smashes and you're dead huh? In that perfect world that always happens.

You said it is a team game, not duels? So what happens, isolated laboratory event of 1v1 on a flat plain, or a live event in a wz? When i am going for my burst before i engage, running to the battle, i dont count the adrenal pop, the relic pop, the singularity builder as wasted globals, because i am too far away. This way i can claim my huge force sweep to be 6 seconds due to preparation + leap. In fact, that's not quite the truth, because for the enemy it is bang 6-7k.

The sentinel in my group does 7k sweeps quite often. Given that master strike can do another 7-8k, on the receiving end it is 14-15k in 5 seconds.

[Gomex]

You said it is a team game, not duels? So what happens, isolated laboratory event of 1v1 on a flat plain, or a live event in a wz? When i am going for my burst before i engage, running to the battle, i dont count the adrenal pop, the relic pop, the singularity builder as wasted globals, because i am too far away. This way i can claim my huge force sweep to be 6 seconds due to preparation + leap. In fact, that's not quite the truth, because for the enemy it is bang 6-7k.

The sentinel in my group does 7k sweeps quite often. Given that master strike can do another 7-8k, on the receiving end it is 14-15k in 5 seconds.

 

Lol, sounds like you play on a PVE server

[Nyaara]

Marauders are finally balanced. They don't need to be adjusted.

 

No, Marauders are starting to be a plague right now. Guess why.

[alcek]

Nyaara, it is hopeless. I can see where my class looks op, while they don't. They will never accept to be over the top, ever. No matter how you explain it, give examples, vids, whatever. They aren't op, all the rest are scrubs that need l2p. So much elitism and denial. I have been irritating them for some time, because reason cannot penetrate into some heads. Edited May 17, 2012 by alcek

[mikedee]

No, Marauders are starting to be a plague right now. Guess why.

 

They have some super def cd that when popped they can kill most other classes in the time it lasts from 100%. Turn the cd to 30mins or a hour.

[darkusnite]

If UR is nerfed then Marauders will have to be thrown a bone elsewhere. Other classes with the utility to stun, push/pull, and/or snare melee can survive longer than our 5 seconds of "godmode." Im failing to see the upsides of the suggested nerfs by the OP.