Healers - James Ohlen speaks out?!

[Janyx-Nehalem]

that's not even a sage that did the healing it was a scoundrel. Are you honestly that dense!

 

It proves the concept that tanks are VERY important in PvP. Regardless of the class, a well guarded healer can change the balance of a WZ.

[xxprimalxx]

Healers are not over-nerfed, they are fine.

 

My Evidence:

 

A recent (Post 1.2 patch) Alderaan WZ

 

Notice the Sorc heals who did nearly 900k heals.

Get a good tank go guard/peel for you, l2p, and quit whining. All the 1.2 patch did is make tanks a necessary and important team member for PvP. Pre-1.2 no healer needed a tank because they could heal through 2-3 dps focusing them, not even needing to kite.

 

Well if tanks are to be REQUIRED for a healer to pvp then all dps should be made so fragile that they are REQUIRED. TO PLAY WITH A HEALER. All fixed i guess. Lets suggest to the devs

[Janyx-Nehalem]

Well if tanks are to be REQUIRED for a healer to pvp then all dps should be made so fragile that they are REQUIRED. TO PLAY WITH A HEALER. All fixed i guess. Lets suggest to the devs

 

I don't know if I'd say required. If you want to be competitive, then yes, but the alternative was pre 1.2 when tanks were useless and all stacked dps gear because healers didn't need any help.

[Badem]

So the title of this thread is Healers.

 

Yet your moaning about not being able to faceroll everyone in WZ's with your sorcerer anymore.

 

Booo Hooo your going to have to learn how to play now.

 

 

I suggest you reread my OP and then follow the comments down....

 

then highlight where I am moaning about not being able to faceroll everyone else on a Sage.......

[pathiss]

It proves the concept that tanks are VERY important in PvP. Regardless of the class, a well guarded healer can change the balance of a WZ.

 

Regardless, there is a huge difference even when guarded between a scoundrel/op and a sorc/sage. Even if protected, a sorc/sage can be completely gimped via a competent interrupter, effectively making their healing throughput worthless. An operative/scoundrel (and I speak from intimate knowledge) does not have that issue.

 

This is what you are missing. Not all healers are created equal.

[Shlamorel]

http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/05/15/hyperspace-beacon-swtors-james-ohlen-shares-the-formula-behind/

 

In PvP, there are ways to counter the health hit you take in managing your resources, and short of telling players what to do and when to do it, we're comfortable with how things are playing right now

 

Are you kidding me? Sage spec here. Lets see anyone (James included) explain to me how I can 'Counter the Health hit'?

 

Get Attacked - Pop Force Shield - BOOM its gone along with about 30% of my health -

 

ok lets try CC that SoB for some breathing Room - Lift cast - BOOM another 20% of my health and they broke the mezz...

 

Hmm lets try my other Mezz (its only 4 seconds but it might be enough) - BOOM cast.. WHUT? no effect? BOOM another 20% gone.. Drop a Med Pack fast.. crap Mezzed by them, OK use my ONLY break mezz - that's it free... WHAT Mezzed again.... Thats it may as well just wait since I cannot break the mezz spams nor can I heal as everytime I start a heal cast it gets interrupted...

 

So not only can we not deal any damage (since all abilities require at least 1-2 seconds to cast and these are interrupted by any other class just hitting us) we cannot mitigate any damage, we cannot shield ourselves from any damage, our crowd control abilities are on 2 minute cool down, our break mezz ability is on a 2 minute countdown, our melee skills are pointless.

 

Cannot even try to run away as JK simply jump to us stunning us, one of the other classes simply pulls us to them and anyone behind cover is immune to any of our CC abilities or stuns and can 2 shot us before we even look at them.

 

Sage healing has become more complicated but it is still possible.

 

I was going to try to respond to some of your specific points but really they are too vague for constructive discussion. We have no way of knowing what is causing your CC's not to work. Is their resolve bar full? Are they resisting/reflecting somehow? Do they have a DoT on them, wiping the CC off? Do they have an ability that prevents CC during certain time periods?

 

It's really not going to be helpful for me to share my own person warzone strats here in detail, but in general, I can tell you that it is very helpful if you can kite enemies, use LoS to your advantage whenever possible, and rely more on slow/snare abilities than on complete "lockdown" abilities like lift or stun.

 

On a final note, I am quite put-off by the first line of James' response. He may have answered that question several times, but many people come to the forums when they have their first questions and thus aren't up to date on the database of answers on the website. I just find it a little unprofessional that he would respond that way. Yes, I keep up with changes on the website so it didn't affect me, but I feel like he could have responded much more appropriately.

 

Some suggestions: perhaps he could reference the specific locations where people can find these past answers he has provided so that they can review them for themselves.

 

A lot of people don't do anything SWTOR-related outside of the game, so to expect all healers to keep up with their dev responses is a little demanding, IMO. Again, I DO keep up with the changes, but many players don't... I don't like that he assumed the person asking the question simply "didn't like his last answer and was therefore asking the same question again."

Edited May 16, 2012 by Shlamorel

[pathiss]

I don't see the problem. Your heals can get interrupted, so can other healers?

 

You really don't know the difference between healers do you? In terms of effectiveness through interrupts it goes as follows:

 

Operative > Merc > Sorc

 

...and believe it or not, viability vs competent enemies goes as such:

 

Operative > Merc > Sorc

[Badem]

I don't see the problem. Your heals can get interrupted, so can other healers? Unlike you however trooper/mercenaries can't force speed away from enemies. The only things they have to work with are a KB, a stun, and a mezz that takes forever to cast. I'm not saying L2P, but nothing you mentioned is broken.

 

The example you gave is one that no one would survive. Also, pvp is not a solo game so if you get picked off by other players while you're on your own then it's not really your classes fault.

 

Not quite true, I get mezz spammed from the moment I get locked, I can remove stun but then that is it until the cooldown clears 2 minutes later. I get another stun I am just a punchbag until I die (which takes about 3 hits with just under 14k hp)

 

So basically my options are to simply suck it up for 50 Commendations a match until I can get the 2k? I need to get better gear? Thats time I would rather spend having fun

[pathiss]

Sage healing has become more complicated but it is still possible.

 

Possible, but severely limited against competent enemies especially when compared to the other healing classes. The change to force management to sorc/sages was probably enough. The change to force bending was uncalled for because they were already overly susceptible to interrupts before 1.2. Heh

[Janyx-Nehalem]

Regardless, there is a huge difference even when guarded between a scoundrel/op and a sorc/sage. Even if protected, a sorc/sage can be completely gimped via a competent interrupter, effectively making their healing throughput worthless. An operative/scoundrel (and I speak from intimate knowledge) does not have that issue.

 

This is what you are missing. Not all healers are created equal.

 

I agree not all healers are in the same place. For sure Scoundrel is better off than sorc, that I'll admit. However, my point was that tanks are the pivotal game changer for ANY healer.

 

As a shadow tank, with some work, I can shut down 2 dps trying to kill/interrupt my healer between my KB, taunts, knockdown, stun, and mezz I can tie them up nearly indefinitely, freeing my healer to get out group heals on anyone in the immediate vicinity. One of my more regular PvP premade partners is a sage, and I've never seen him underperform in a WZ.

[pathiss]

As a shadow tank, with some work, I can shut down 2 dps trying to kill/interrupt my healer between my KB, taunts, knockdown, stun, and mezz I can tie them up nearly indefinitely, freeing my healer to get out group heals on anyone in the immediate vicinity. One of my more regular PvP premade partners is a sage, and I've never seen him underperform in a WZ.

 

In the exact same circumstance, I would heal for twice as much as the sage in question because the interrupts would hardly phase me. Not only that, I would have to spend far less time healing both you guarding me and myself because I am far less squishy (for several reasons). This means the majority of my healing is going to other people that need it instead of to us.

 

Also, I am not trying to be rude here, but your example is a little far fetched. You should know as well as I do that you aren't going to be fighitng practice dummies. They are going to be using CC, interrupts, etc. on your healer as well. Your cool downs are going to be half as effective in use compared to theirs simply because multiple opponents have more to burn through than you do alone. I would venture to say that even a single well played marauder (using my guild members as an example) is going to do more than enough to lock that sage's effectiveness down despite your best efforts, even if a single marauders cant kill him.

 

Really man, I know what you are trying to do and say, but coming from the perspective of playing all three healers, I have a pretty damn good perspective as to the difference between them. The sorc/sage excels, no doubt, but only in situations where they are fighting idiots.

[Sookster]

God I know Britaany Banks from anywhere... *cough* SWG.

 

I haven't seen a sorc pass 400K healing post 1.2, I've seen a sage go 600K+ but because of those premades that always queues on HoG. I see waaaaaay more madness sorcs now.

Edited May 16, 2012 by Sookster

[xxprimalxx]

I don't know if I'd say required. If you want to be competitive, then yes, but the alternative was pre 1.2 when tanks were useless and all stacked dps gear because healers didn't need any help.

 

The point being that if i want to roll as heals in pvp. I aam expected to drag a tank along. Yet marauders for instance can not only survive without a healer to do their job but in most cases ccan take on 2 or more solo and still walk away looking for a fight. Now i am in no way saying healers should be able to survive 4v1without. But they need to be given better viability via survival cds or new escape mechanics.

[Janyx-Nehalem]

In the exact same circumstance, I would heal for twice as much as the sage in question because the interrupts would hardly phase me. Not only that, I would have to spend far less time healing both you guarding me and myself because I am far less squishy (for several reasons). This means the majority of my healing is going to other people that need it instead of to us.

 

Also, I am not trying to be rude here, but your example is a little far fetched. You should know as well as I do that you aren't going to be fighitng practice dummies. They are going to be using CC, interrupts, etc. on your healer as well. Your cool downs are going to be half as effective in use compared to theirs simply because multiple opponents have more to burn through than you do alone. I would venture to say that even a single well played marauder (using my guild members as an example) is going to do more than enough to lock that sage's effectiveness down despite your best efforts, even if a single marauders cant kill him.

 

Really man, I know what you are trying to do and say, but coming from the perspective of playing all three healers, I have a pretty damn good perspective as to the difference between them. The sorc/sage excels, no doubt, but only in situations where they are fighting idiots.

 

I respect that. Thanks for not flaming.

 

However, just from personal experience I disagree. In my premades I've never seen a Scoundrel healer outperform a competent Sage by a factor of 2. I've also never had a problem locking down a dps or 2 on my sage heals. If the sage is kiting correctly (esp using pillars or terrain), and I'm keeping force slow rolling + we're both using our KBs to effect, 2 maras can basically NEVER close to harass the healer. Not to mention, if they're away from heals of their own, I WILL kill them. Beware the shadow tank who stacks surge for auto-crit projects. It's the same with Vanguards, plenty of hobbling tools and great damage on stock strike.

 

I respect that your experience may be different. Agree to disagree I suppose.

[Janyx-Nehalem]

The point being that if i want to roll as heals in pvp. I aam expected to drag a tank along. Yet marauders for instance can not only survive without a healer to do their job but in most cases ccan take on 2 or more solo and still walk away looking for a fight. Now i am in no way saying healers should be able to survive 4v1without. But they need to be given better viability via survival cds or new escape mechanics.

 

But if we give you those tools and you don't need a tank, why take one?

 

If you are capable of escaping any foe and never needing to rely on your team for help, you might as well just drop the tanks and stack more dps.

 

I see nothing wrong with at the beginning of a pug WZ you ask whos a tank and if you can get guarded. I often will call out in pug WZs to see who is heals and gravitate towards them for the teams sake.

 

This is a team game, you have to learn to work with others to shore up your classes weaknesses.

[xxprimalxx]

I agree not all healers are in the same place. For sure Scoundrel is better off than sorc, that I'll admit. However, my point was that tanks are the pivotal game changer for ANY healer.

 

As a shadow tank, with some work, I can shut down 2 dps trying to kill/interrupt my healer between my KB, taunts, knockdown, stun, and mezz I can tie them up nearly indefinitely, freeing my healer to get out group heals on anyone in the immediate vicinity. One of my more regular PvP premade partners is a sage, and I've never seen him underperform in a WZ.

 

Your entire discussion points to a healer only being allowed to heal if he is attached to the hip of another player. This is un acceptable. I wonder how dps classes would feel if 90 % of their abilities could not be used unless they were standing next to a healer? Most of the sorc/sages i know have either rerolled or went dps and in some cases just unsubbed.

[xxprimalxx]

But if we give you those tools and you don't need a tank, why take one?

 

If you are capable of escaping any foe and never needing to rely on your team for help, you might as well just drop the tanks and stack more dps.

 

I see nothing wrong with at the beginning of a pug WZ you ask whos a tank and if you can get guarded. I often will call out in pug WZs to see who is heals and gravitate towards them for the teams sake.

 

This is a team game, you have to learn to work with others to shore up your classes weaknesses.

 

Been there done that. Most times the healers are left to their own devices unless in a PREMADE as you keep referring to. Let that sorc healer try to solo any dps. And he dies unless he outgears the opponent. Yes it is a team. It is a team of tunnelvisioner players who are wrapped around the next kill for their medals. Having a character that is essentially useless without another player is nonviable. IF they are ignored and IF your opponents are completely ignorant they can do well. Most dps jump straight to sorcs/sages not because they are afraid of their healing ability but because they are easy kills/medals.

[Blloodbane]

Your entire discussion points to a healer only being allowed to heal if he is attached to the hip of another player. This is un acceptable. I wonder how dps classes would feel if 90 % of their abilities could not be used unless they were standing next to a healer? Most of the sorc/sages i know have either rerolled or went dps and in some cases just unsubbed.

 

Welcome to the world of a Carnage/Combat tree of Maurader's and Sentinel's which has ZERO healing in the class.

[Janyx-Nehalem]

Been there done that. Most times the healers are left to their own devices unless in a PREMADE as you keep referring to. Let that sorc healer try to solo any dps. And he dies unless he outgears the opponent. Yes it is a team. It is a team of tunnelvisioner players who are wrapped around the next kill for their medals. Having a character that is essentially useless without another player is nonviable. IF they are ignored and IF your opponents are completely ignorant they can do well. Most dps jump straight to sorcs/sages not because they are afraid of their healing ability but because they are easy kills/medals.

 

Sounds like you need to move onto a game that revolves around solo game play and 1v1 mechanics.

 

Also, if a dps is out on his own without heals, they're going to find that their dps drops significantly because they are dead.

 

The solution is simple, just stick near a tank, ask them for guard....and profit. Or don't and be fodder, I don't care.

[Cognortin]

Roll a Merc healer and get back to me. Mercs are absolutely garbage. Sorc healers in my guild seem to do fine. The heat costs for mercs is rediculous then to throw alacrity on our gear so we burn through it that much faster... awesome.. Bring on some more nerfs please.

[LiveandDieinLA]

Roll a Merc healer and get back to me. Mercs are absolutely garbage. Sorc healers in my guild seem to do fine. The heat costs for mercs is rediculous then to throw alacrity on our gear so we burn through it that much faster... awesome.. Bring on some more nerfs please.

 

Merc healers when played well are still the hardest healers to kill in the game.

[xxprimalxx]

Welcome to the world of a Carnage/Combat tree of Maurader's and Sentinel's which has ZERO healing in the class.

 

My main surprisingly enough is a 50 marauder. I feel ya pain ..i do

[Blloodbane]

Merc healers when played well are still the hardest healers to kill in the game.

 

With that said...

 

I think Mercs could stand a looking at... I am no expert in the class though... Other classes are fine even they cry QQ a lot, Mercs might have some beef that is reasonable... They dont SUCK but they are hardly noticeable in pvp in seems...

[Blloodbane]

My main surprisingly enough is a 50 marauder. I feel ya pain ..i do

 

 

My performance in pvp wildly varies on the pug groups I am in... Just depends on healing... Thats why when someone cries for a Mara Nerf... I cringe a little... I mean I played Carnage pre 1.1 and even respecced back in to it (I know I like pain)... I have had days were I had 55 kills and 2 deaths, I have had days were my kills and deaths royally sucked....

 

Yes, my butt stays near healers if they heal LOL...

[xxprimalxx]

Sounds like you need to move onto a game that revolves around solo game play and 1v1 mechanics.

 

Also, if a dps is out on his own without heals, they're going to find that their dps drops significantly because they are dead.

 

The solution is simple, just stick near a tank, ask them for guard....and profit. Or don't and be fodder, I don't care.

 

Actually i am asking for the opposite. My main is a 50 marauder. Sometimes i like to change it up and play a healer. When i do WZ's one of my first targets are, yep you guessed it sorcs/ sages just to clear them out. I parked my sorc right after 1.2 after 7 days of trying to heal in wz's. I am sure you enjoy being able to global a healer but in the long term they need help