As A Sorcerer, Every One Is OP

[SinnedWill]

You think the sorcerer is bad. Play a merc. I have both and all though sorcerer isn't the top its better than the doo doo Mercs.

 

They both perform relatively poorly end-game right now, though I think merc might scale a bit better from expertise. All-in-all, however I must say that I agree - if you like what mercs do (dps-wise) roll a powertech for better effect. Or if you like ops/scoundrel dps, roll a middle tree spec of assassin/shadow for same playstyle with more overall functionality. I think they nerfed all 3 AC's that have healing a bit much due to their "jack of all trades" capability if you spec hybrid (and master of all for many pre 1.2) - yes, nerfs were necessary due to the significance of their performances, but I think they could've been handled differently (i.e. introduce a stance or form for healing or dps - stances gives damage bonus/healing decrease if they want to do damage or healing increase/damage decrease for heal spec - similar to most other AC's based upon thier spec for performance). Yes, the hybrid dps build needed to be nerfed (and it was), but they also nerfed the damage output for 31-pt specs.

[Diebar]

Im pretty sure you can win any of the 4 maps without actually killing a single person. So what if you die in 2 seconds, did you pass the ball? did you CC someone to allow a bomb planting/defuse? did you cap a turret?

 

TOR pvp is all about objectives, not dealing 8 bazillion damage or healing for Umpteen-thousands. You cap objectives, hold objectives, throw objectives.

 

Complaining is not yet an objective, but look forward to 1.5.. I hear its in the pipeline.

 

this is the most informative thread ive seen....EVER....I LIKE THIS GUY.

 

Yes, mee too!

 

BTW, for the man who opened this thread. I am not agree, you should play an Scrondrel/Operative and then come back and open a new thread crying. Maybe you have to improve your kite tecniques or doble-check your skills points and find a better positioning place.

[SinnedWill]

Sorc are very strong but only in the "Right Hands":jawa_evil:

But they are not OP even if they seem OP.

 

Full WH geared end-game performance, and in the "Right Hands", your sorcerer gets outperformed by other classes. Expertise effects on damage values being the most significant thing end-game and sorcerer/sage are significantly lacking on base damage valued attacks. I suppose you could argue that sorcerer could perform as the best sustained DPS if they increased DoT damage moderately, and reduced force cost for many abilities (currently takes me ~20s to burn through my force - after which we can only spam force lightning or tkt and hopefully get killed or if we have healers, we can gradually consume/noble sacrifice - works best with ops/scound pre-cast HoT's if you spread out consumption/noble sac, but this still doesn't give us much more uptime).

Don't get me wrong, we still perform admirably against certain classes and we can bring the pain if left unchecked (but it typically only takes 1 person of any AC with more significant damage values to either kill us outright or force all of our attention upon to survive). Keep in mind, I'm speaking from a DPS spec point of view - Heal-specced and hybrid heals/dps specs seem to be performing remarkably by comparison.

[SinnedWill]

Yes, mee too!

 

BTW, for the man who opened this thread. I am not agree, you should play an Scrondrel/Operative and then come back and open a new thread crying. Maybe you have to improve your kite tecniques or doble-check your skills points and find a better positioning place.

 

Ops/scounds can still dish out great burst - but yes, if they can't kill something within their stunlock duration, they too suffer - merc/commando dps's are apparently suffering as well (though they might be decent at full gear due to higher base damage abilities, I just don't see many people bothering to gear their merc/commandos right now, though). Seems like all the AC's that have dps and healing capability are suffering the most (as pure dps) with end-game (full WH remodded gear vs. full WH remodded gear targets). Also, melees are the least of my problems as a madness sorc (unless you consider P-Tech/VG and Assassin/Shadow to be melee). Mara/Sent and Jugg/Guardians aren't an issue for me until there are 3+ (I can last long enough surviving against 2 to make it ineffective for them to actually prime me before someone else - and anytime 3+ have to focus on someone, you've certainly made yourself an asset to the rest of your team). Also, capping objectives and CC'ing is significant and most important to winning (I agree), but you don't usually win without at least some people on your team killing effectively - regardless of what you might believe, you can't CC everyone indefinitely - and you accomplish more from a kill than you can accomplish via effect of CC for longer durations (typically) and is certainly integral to team survivability (and objective control) in its own right.

Edited May 15, 2012 by SinnedWill

[V-Serp]

Biggest problem with madness/balance sorc/sages:

Many less experienced players of this template use instant-cast version of mez (which is the worst thing, ever) - if you put 2 points to make it insta-cast, you're usually the one to blame for needless hutt-ball goals or turning pt's/vg's/maras/sents/shads/sins into much more difficult encounters since this fills resolve to max if they take damage (love it when a sorc/sage does this to me - I get mezzed, then 2s stun, then I'm immune and took very little damage - 2s stun for full resolve isn't worth it). If you want a quicker mez cast, put 1 point in this, only. Personally, I have 0 points in it and I do fine with the normal casting time.

 

Quick point on this, the instant-mez is supposed to be used for objective capping and defense. You are not supposed to use it to get the 2s stun on it. Not being instant makes it much too slow to actually use in PVP. If that weren't the case everyone would just pick the middle turret tree and free cast everything and be perfectly viable.

 

I also don't know about it filling resolve by itself. I have used knockback, instant-whirlwhind and the 4s stun all in a row to allow a teammate to cap without resolve triggering. This is also why nobody should ever just have one person on defense in a node based map like Alderaan and probably not for NC either.

[Cempa]

Try talking to a Powertech Pyro, or Juggernaut Vengeance or Annihilation Marauder or Assassin, ask them what they think about who dies the fastest of all the classes?

 

Care to guess what the ALL say?

 

Very few will start talking because they don't want x5 HUGE purple lightning from 30m on them. The fact is because its so visible people hate it!

 

You are focused on your target and all of a sudden notice some DoTs on you and massive purple lightning and see your HP drop faster than a Kardashian in an NBA convention!

[beyondkilling]

learn 2 kite or get a tank for guard and be a healer?

[Underpowered]

Madness DPS falls off with gear.

Relative to other classes with certain specs, I agree. Lack of natural big numbers with our skills to maximize benefit from gear makes this apparent, but I feel this is mostly if not entirely compensated by the frequency our of attacks - sure we hit smaller but we hit a lot faster with a full stack of dots and TK Throw going off simultaneously.

 

Get to full WH gear (remodded) and face opponents that are just as geared.

I am fully war hero gear except for implants which I feel have sideways gains from the BM implants at best. I have cherry picked Force Mystic and Force Master WH gear pieces to get the stat allocation I want, all of which are in orange WH gear all with +willpower augment slots. I also faced opponents just as geared on a daily basis.

 

DoT damage is bad. And we lose ~ 1000 damage to targets with death field (when we relic/adrenal) compared to when everyone was BM geared.

DoT damage is NOT bad - unless you expect them to perform like Vanilla Warlock dots from WoW. Dots should be at least 35-40% of your total DPS. Also my FIB (death field) hits for nearly equivalent numbers to pre 1.2, definitely not 1000 damage lost. Maybe 200 at most. Maybe you're getting the wrong War Hero gear with bad stat allocation (namely, DO NOT get all Force Master WH gear)

 

Make sure you're stacking lots of crit chance (40% after smugg buff is a nice target) so that the +30% crit multiplier bonus to FIB and all our dots is maximized all the time. 75%+ crit multiplier minimum. Get all the power you can. Alacrity, despite what the mathematicians at mmo-mechanics.com say, is pure fluff in PvP (PvE its more useful) - so you want to be focusing on crit/surge and power/surge all the way through to the targets I mentioned above, THEN you probably want to get a few power/alacrity or crit/alacrity mods to please the inner theorycrafter inside us. Make sure you're getting the companion crit and surge bonuses too. Why? For example, at very high levels of surge, that 1% crit multiplier bonus from companion is effectively equal to 200-300 surge points, meaning you can deallocate huge of amounts of surge from mods into other stats "for free."

 

With the dot damage bonus from FIB/Deathfield and the stat allocation above, dot damage is perfectly fine. Not overwhelming but perfectly fine. Also make sure you're spending your death field procs on Affliction and Creeping Terror to maximize DPS as their ticks are higher than Crushing Darkness.

 

Base damage of abilities is what is currently determining the efficiency of ability usage (i.e. I've stopped using affliction quite a bit now - just not worth the force cost).

 

You might disagree with me here, but f*** efficiency in PvP man. Seriously. TTK on Sages is so low, do you want to die with extra force or offensive abilities not on cooldown for the sake of efficiency? I certainly don't. How many times have you died with zero Force vs times died with lots of Force remaining? I can answer that question for you. The Force you saved due to efficiency is worthless if you lost because you held back. Don't hold back.

 

Don't get me wrong, I would love for our class to have more damage to make life easier for us. But thinking of the overall balance in PvP, its not the way to go. Nerf Marauders and Powertechs first, then we can talk about Sorc DPS. We have no unbalanced problem vs any other class or spec in the game, thats a fact - just those two classes.

 

Also, since this is kinda turning into a numbers game, find my post with screenshots to my warzone DPS at the link below. These are just over 1 week old. 600K+ damage AND 100k+ healing. Go ahead and tell me that's not good enough performance from any class in PvP, I dare you. If I spent less Force and time shielding my allies with Force Armor, I could easily hit 700k if I really wanted to. But I won't because the best Sages aren't about max DPS, its about max support.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=295559&page=8

Edited May 15, 2012 by Underpowered

[V-Serp]

I have way more problems with Tanksins than I do Powertechs. I dunno where this Powertech is OPed thing came from.

 

About the only 2 classes that give me trouble reliably are Tanksins and Marauders. The other classes can still have good and bad players, but it's funny how all the "best" players and "best" premades are chock full of Assassins and Marauders.

[Underpowered]

I have way more problems with Tanksins than I do Powertechs. I dunno where this Powertech is OPed thing came from.

 

About the only 2 classes that give me trouble reliably are Tanksins and Marauders. The other classes can still have good and bad players, but it's funny how all the "best" players and "best" premades are chock full of Assassins and Marauders.

 

Tanksins are extremely frustrating for a Sage, no doubt, but between Marauders, Powertechs, and Tanksins, Tanksins IMO are the easiest to kite because we can dispel their slow, whereas we cannot dispel Marauder or Powertech slows on our own. We can also slow Tanksins in return and they cannot do ANYTHING about it on their own short of blowing their invulnerability cooldown. IF Tanksins pop their invulnerability cooldown, just relax and run away until it's off CD.

 

From a Sage specific point of view, top-level Powertechs are OP versus us because we have no effective mechanism of dealing with them, UNLESS if the fight begins at 30m, and even then it's 60/40 or 70/30 against us. Versus average-skill/gear Powertechs its closer to 50/50.

[Diebar]

I suppose you could argue that sorcerer could perform as the best sustained DPS if they increased DoT damage moderately, and reduced force cost for many abilities (currently takes me ~20s to burn through my force - after which we can only spam force lightning or tkt and hopefully get killed or if we have healers, we can gradually consume/noble sacrifice - works best with ops/scound pre-cast HoT's if you spread out consumption/noble sac, but this still doesn't give us much more uptime).

 

Maybe we can discuss the lack of base damage, dot's damage and survival, but.. Force?? You can spam skills during all the WZ and just rest 1 or 2 times without dying. Stop smoking your force, you addict!

Edited May 15, 2012 by Diebar

[Astarica]

Tanksins are extremely frustrating for a Sage, no doubt, but between Marauders, Powertechs, and Tanksins, Tanksins IMO are the easiest to kite because we can dispel their slow, whereas we cannot dispel Marauder or Powertech slows on our own. We can also slow Tanksins in return and they cannot do ANYTHING about it on their own short of blowing their invulnerability cooldown. IF Tanksins pop their invulnerability cooldown, just relax and run away until it's off CD.

 

From a Sage specific point of view, top-level Powertechs are OP versus us because we have no effective mechanism of dealing with them, UNLESS if the fight begins at 30m, and even then it's 60/40 or 70/30 against us. Versus average-skill/gear Powertechs its closer to 50/50.

 

You must be playing some very bad Tankasins. Force Speed on 20s removes all forms of movement impairing effect, and most of our attacks have 10m range. Of course that's assuming you didn't get force pulled into your doom as soon as the fight begins (any enemy nearby will be happy to jump the Sage that got pulled in). By the way to remove our slow that means you're dispelling yourself every 7.5s which means you're losing 20% of your GCDs to deal with an effect that's basically always on.

[IHate]

Everyone knows there are "Stun and Run" options, but I think the OP's argument still stands...why play a sub-class at this point. It's obvious the WZs are geared toward HIGH SPIKE dps type toons....with everyone rolling one of those they can jump to you and finish the job no matter what you do. Might not be big if there was only one and we were all playing roles, but the way the damage is now, no one needs to play a role.

 

It's obvious DPS is king and spike damage rules the face of these games. WZs with 5-6 spike damage type toons with the same old rotations are going to win 9 out of 10 times as it is now. Until something greater is changed you can "Stun and Run" all you want, but you are still running while they are capping nodes and destroying the rest of your teammates.

[Astarica]

Everyone knows there are "Stun and Run" options, but I think the OP's argument still stands...why play a sub-class at this point. It's obvious the WZs are geared toward HIGH SPIKE dps type toons....with everyone rolling one of those they can jump to you and finish the job no matter what you do. Might not be big if there was only one and we were all playing roles, but the way the damage is now, no one needs to play a role.

 

It's obvious DPS is king and spike damage rules the face of these games. WZs with 5-6 spike damage type toons with the same old rotations are going to win 9 out of 10 times as it is now. Until something greater is changed you can "Stun and Run" all you want, but you are still running while they are capping nodes and destroying the rest of your teammates.

 

Err, Tankasins pretty much grind everyone down to death. If we have a direct DPS exchange with a Marauder, we'll usually lose, but that's why we don't trade hits and grind them down instead with our range.

 

So there's nothing inherently overpowered about spike damage versus sustained damage. Sorc might need better way to stay alive so that their DPS becomes relevent, but the fact that they can't do burst DPS itself isn't some kind of fundamental flaw.

[Underpowered]

You must be playing some very bad Tankasins.

 

I've fought really good ones, and I've fought really bad ones, and some in between. I also think you've misunderstood my point. I'm not saying Sages do or should kill Assassins all the time. If a good Assassin gets the jump on me I understand and accept that I will most likely die. But the point I'm trying to make here is that it's easier for Sages to defend and/or kite Tankasins than Marauders or Pyros, and as an extension, I can inflict more damage in return before I die, which I am fine with.

 

Force Speed on 20s removes all forms of movement impairing effect

Sages get Force Speed too. And on 20s cd too if we so choose. So this point is moot.

 

and most of our attacks have 10m range.

Good luck trying to kill a Sage from 10m+ out before we kill you first.

 

Of course that's assuming you didn't get force pulled into your doom as soon as the fight begins

Yeah I agree that's a real b*tch for us, not gonna lie. After this you probably end up knocking me down and/or put up slow on me and/or put some heavy burst on me, right? Nothing I can do about that. Doesn't mean I shouldn't give up though. I'll force wave, sever force (which force speed cannot break), strafe away from you while applying weaken mind, force slow, project. If I get slowed in return at any point, I cleanse. Either way I have a decent chance of getting 10m distance on you, after which my chances of survival increase drastically. Then the real fight begins. If you Force Speed, so do I in any direction I choose. Or better yet, I sever force you while you're sprinting which wastes your sprint. Of course I believe you can stealth out any point during the fight if its going bad so that you can gank me again - that's usually the move that finishes me.

 

(any enemy nearby will be happy to jump the Sage that got pulled in).

So you got a buddy to help you out now? Where's mine?

 

By the way to remove our slow that means you're dispelling yourself every 7.5s which means you're losing 20% of your GCDs to deal with an effect that's basically always on.

1. Your effect is NEVER on because I'm dispelling it instantly. Which in turn means you're wasting 20% of your own GCDs to use an ability that is cancelled out.

2. I dont mind using 20% of my GCDs because in the meantime I have at least 2 dots ticking on you to keep some of my DPS going.

3. I'm perfectly content with losing DPS to stay alive and maybe even squeeze out a survival in the end. Also, Sages are completely used to having slow DPS by design. We're a very patient class =)

Edited May 15, 2012 by Underpowered

[SinnedWill]

I am fully war hero gear except for implants which I feel have sideways gains from the BM implants at best. I have cherry picked Force Mystic and Force Master WH gear pieces to get the stat allocation I want, all of which are in orange WH gear all with +willpower augment slots. I also faced opponents just as geared on a daily basis.

 

 

DoT damage is NOT bad - unless you expect them to perform like Vanilla Warlock dots from WoW. Dots should be at least 35-40% of your total DPS. Also my FIB (death field) hits for nearly equivalent numbers to pre 1.2, definitely not 1000 damage lost. Maybe 200 at most. Maybe you're getting the wrong War Hero gear with bad stat allocation (namely, DO NOT get all Force Master WH gear)

I'm 3 pcs force mystic, 2 pcs Force Master, fully WH geared (augmented) and lacking 2 (maybe 3) pieces for optimized remodding (augments are primarily purple resolves, with 2 purple powers and 1 purple crit). Against ANY fully WH geared target (assuming they at least have inquis/consular buff), my death field crit values (relic + adrenal) don't exceed 3500. These same targets (the squishiest have always been dps P-techs/Vanguards were taking ~4600 damage when it was full BM gear vs. full BM gear.

Make sure you're stacking lots of crit chance (40% after smugg buff is a nice target) so that the +30% crit multiplier bonus to FIB and all our dots is maximized all the time. 75%+ crit multiplier minimum. Get all the power you can. Alacrity, despite what the mathematicians at mmo-mechanics.com say, is pure fluff in PvP (PvE its more useful) - so you want to be focusing on crit/surge and power/surge all the way through to the targets I mentioned above, THEN you probably want to get a few power/alacrity or crit/alacrity mods to please the inner theorycrafter inside us. Make sure you're getting the companion crit and surge bonuses too. For example, at very high levels of surge, that 1% crit multiplier bonus from companion is effectively equal to 200-300 surge points, for example, meaning you can deallocate huge of amounts of surge from mods into other stats "for free."

I use 0 alacrity - alacrity speeds up force lightning channel (only benefit possible for me), but net result tends to be less. Crit chance is ~44% with operative buff (needed for DoT-based self-healing), surge value is ~ 77 or 78%, everything else is in power. I have all companion passive buffs (healing received is most significant, fyi). And I use WH power relic (best for my stats) + lv. 50 Matrix Cube (occasionally I'll swap it out for a BM crit/surge bonus relic since there isn't a WH crit/surge relic, but net result between Matrix cube and the extra expertise for willpower/crit loss tends to have less effect - with few exceptions, and becomes increasingly dependant upon luck to get more out of it than the matrix cube). DoT's (with the exception of crushing darkness) are very insignificant against equally geared opponents (damage-wise), yet vital to my survivability. Affliction being the most disappointing due to force cost/damage - creeping terror damage is bad, but lower force cost + root, so it gets used every CD - Crushing Darkness is used every CD, shock is used every CD, deathfield every CD (and in conjunction with every recklessness CD, AND recklessness + adrenal CD). Force lightning is filler, wrath-proc provider, and 5% remaining force spam-sauce. Lightning strike is filler with early wrath-proc only if crushing darkness is on CD. I'm not much of a turret-mode sorc. Pretty sure I know what I'm doing to optimize my class/spec.

With the dot damage bonus from FIB/Deathfield and the stat allocation above, dot damage is perfectly fine. Not overwhelming but perfectly fine. Also make sure you're spending your death field procs on Affliction and Creeping Terror to maximize DPS as their ticks are higher than Crushing Darkness.

Crushing Darkness ticks are better than affliction/creeping terror ticks against all light/medium armored opponents (save tankassin/shadowtank). So I tend to save as many death field's death mark ticks for Crushing Darkness on them and yes, affliction/creeping terror on others. DoT damage values tend to be 400-800 with death mark consumed DoT ticks against most equally geared players - yes, death mark consumed DoT damage is fine - but impossible to fully utilize due to CD's and force costs.

Don't get me wrong, I would love for our class to have more damage to make life easier for us. But thinking of the overall balance in PvP, its not the way to go. Nerf Marauders and Powertechs first, then we can talk about Sorc DPS. We have no unbalanced problem vs any other class or spec in the game, thats a fact - just those two classes.

I disagree - Tank specced shadows/sins and middle tree specced shadows/sins are our biggest issue. Followed by Pyro/Elem specced P-techs/VG's, then ops/scounds (ops/scounds have nothing outside of their stunlock burst right now, so lets not even bother there), then sniper/gunslinger (they're becoming more frequent and though we can fight back at range and use LoS to DoT them, they can still burst us down with a quickness - also don't think they need anything done). Melees (namely maras/sents) present the least issues for me 1v1 and I can usually take 2 of them for long enough (and costly enough on their CD's) to make me less viable to be chosen as an early prime. Chain taunts, however, make us useless (2 good tanks, synchronizing taunts, dps, stunlocks, and CC do a number on anyone, however, so no complaint there). I'm usually top damage (average 300k-400k damage per WZ with everyone fully geared - less if enemy team has bubble-happy sorc/sages or I get marked despite being dps and taken out every time I show my face via sin/shadow pairs or perma-taunting and I'll average 400-600k in WZ's against a team with at least 2 players that aren't fully geared). I also tend to put up significant healing (despite RARELY using my heals) - and oftentimes rival heal-specs total healing due to getting primed with bubble up and DoT self-healing alone.

All-in-all, yes, sorc/sage still works well end-game, but scales far less efficiently via expertise. I think they should give sorc/sages stances for healing or dps (damage increase/healing decrease if you're dps specced and vice-versa). Although I rarely use my heals, my dark infusion crits (without relic/adrenal and the normal pvp trauma debuff) for ~4300 - which is way too high (always crits for over 5k if I don't have trauma debuff) and I have NOTHING to boost my heal values via skil points.

[V-Serp]

Whelp, guess we should nerf Sage/Sorc since everyone in this thread is too busy stroking their e-peen to ever admit they actually die in a wz to any class.

 

SORC IS OPED NURF SORC!

[SinnedWill]

I've fought really good ones, and I've fought really bad ones, and some in between. I also think you've misunderstood my point. I'm not saying Sages do or should kill Assassins all the time. If a good Assassin gets the jump on me I understand and accept that I will most likely die. But the point I'm trying to make here is that it's easier for Sages to defend and/or kite Tankasins than Marauders or Pyros, and as an extension, I can inflict more damage in return before I die, which I am fine with.

 

So you got a buddy to help you out now? Where's mine?

A good Tankassin/Shadowtank will win 1v1 every time against any sage/sorc spec. Madness/Balance and middle tree specs 1v1 with sorc/sage is a coin-toss if players are equally skilled and know when/how to counter each other. Marauders/Sents pose less of an issue to madness/balance sorc/sage than any assassin ever does.

 

In pairs, tankassins/shadows and middle-tree specs become phenomenal and 2v2 they typically get 2 kills without losing one. Chain taunts and too many debuffs to purge/cleanse combined with phenomenal burst dps potential - sorry, but 2x good tankassin/shadow or middle-tree specced sin/shadow pairs will decimate sage + (insert almost any possible class/spec here most of the time) in 2v2 with the rare occasional exception being when your teammate happens to be tankassin/shadow, is guarding you, uses taunts appropriately and buys you enough time to get your DoT's and self-healing going. Usually still results in a failure due to the fact that good tankassins/shadows typically force shroud (bubble) twice in a fight involving sorc/sage - first bubble comes when you dot them up and attempt a deathfield - this usually takes the sage/sorc almost completely out of the fight overall.

[SinnedWill]

Whelp, guess we should nerf Sage/Sorc since everyone in this thread is too busy stroking their e-peen to ever admit they actually die in a wz to any class.

 

SORC IS OPED NURF SORC!

 

Heh, I die a lot. Oftentimes I prefer to die simply because I can come back out with full force. I play my madness sorc. rather effectively, and every class can kill me effectively if played well.

[Darth_Gao_Gao]

i still see sorcs destroy people in warzones. they have a ton of utility, and due to their dot damage, they can cast and stay mobile, using line of sight.

 

if you are getting smashed as described by the OP, well, maybe you should take a look at how some mercs play. positioning is everything.

[Diebar]

...

 

By your long post, I am agree, but it seems that the problem is not because a nerfed Sorc/Sage but a bit OP of other 2 classes (not all classes, only that 2 that we all already know)

[Underpowered]

A good Tankassin/Shadowtank will win 1v1 every time against any sage/sorc spec. Madness/Balance and middle tree specs 1v1 with sorc/sage is a coin-toss if players are equally skilled and know when/how to counter each other.

Don't disagree if the Tankassin starts the fight on his terms (which should be almost all the time.)

 

Marauders/Sents pose less of an issue to madness/balance sorc/sage than any assassin ever does.

Disagree. Like I said before, we will die to Tankassins but at least we have slightly more options to stay alive for a little longer and thus can inflict an acceptable amount of damage in return before we die. I do not feel this is the case against Marauders because it is trivial for them to slow us down and we cannot dispel the slow on our own. Hence we only get one chance to make a serious opening and that is with Force Speed. So we have like, what, 15sec max before their Leap is back up (but most likely far less than 15sec)? You will NOT kill a good Marauder with even one defensive cooldown ready in that period of time. I could go into details but my brain is hurting from all the debating I've been doing recently.

 

In pairs, tankassins/shadows and middle-tree specs become phenomenal and 2v2 they typically get 2 kills without losing one. Chain taunts and too many debuffs to purge/cleanse combined with phenomenal burst dps potential - sorry, but 2x good tankassin/shadow or middle-tree specced sin/shadow pairs will decimate sage + (insert almost any possible class/spec here most of the time) in 2v2 with the rare occasional exception being when your teammate happens to be tankassin/shadow, is guarding you, uses taunts appropriately and buys you enough time to get your DoT's and self-healing going. Usually still results in a failure due to the fact that good tankassins/shadows typically force shroud (bubble) twice in a fight involving sorc/sage - first bubble comes when you dot them up and attempt a deathfield - this usually takes the sage/sorc almost completely out of the fight overall.

 

Don't disagree with anything you said there. But it's been proven in practice that any of (Assassin, Marauder, Pyrotech) + any other class VS sage + any other class will result in the Sage getting trashed very fast and first. There was a nice huge team duel tournament on a PvP server a month or two back which demonstrated this. So it's not some special property of Tankassin.

 

Are Tankassins very strong, probably OP? Yes. Should they be nerfed? Yes. Does that mean Marauders and Pyrotechs get a free pass? No.

 

To be honest, the only reason why I failed to mention Tankassins in the list of OP classes was because I personally have far less trouble vs. them than Pyros or Marauders for whatever reasons you and I might want to argue about (but let's not.) Their DPS, tanking, stealth and utility are too much when combined. The fact that I forgot was just me being closed-minded. So I apologize.

Edited May 15, 2012 by Underpowered

[Underpowered]

Whelp, guess we should nerf Sage/Sorc since everyone in this thread is too busy stroking their e-peen to ever admit they actually die in a wz to any class.

 

SORC IS OPED NURF SORC!

 

Not sure if troll or sarcastic or serious. I hope its the first two

[SerikFox]

I realize many people play on low population servers and they may not be seeing what the few high population servers are seeing now, and that is full teams with War Hero gear. May not be full War Hero but every single player has over 18k HP buffed and its all PvP gear.

 

Life as a Sorcerer against those teams sucks, DPS Sorcerer..Just sucks.

 

One DPS will wipe a Sorcerers HP in under 20 sec flat -Knock Back CD.

 

GZ says BW do not nurf due to high numbers of Sorcerers, I call liar on that one.

 

Grtz BW, you and EA can go and......

 

The expertise for sorcerer/sage is really poorly put together. The healing is ok, but the rest is just..... it just needs to be redone. Especially the middle tree.

[V-Serp]

The expertise for sorcerer/sage is really poorly put together. The healing is ok, but the rest is just..... it just needs to be redone. Especially the middle tree.

 

The worst part about it is that the middle tree could easily be the strongest, most fun, most skilled version if it wasn't so badly put together. It's supposed to be the burst/flee for your life playstyle, but it turns out you can't really burst because the casting is too slow, and you can't really flee very well since every opponent in this game seems to be able to root or slow you as well.

 

Also the animations for the middle tree are kind of sweet, especially on Republic side. It's like you're throwing hadoukens all over the place, and if the 31 pt talent was a beam-move like a kamehameha you bet people would nerdgasm over the spec and play it like crazy.

 

As it is though, the hadouken (Disturbance) move just does no damage, the cast time is too long even with alacrity, and it has no kiting properties either. No matter how cool the move looks, there is no reason to use it over TT/FL in terms of damage or utility at all.

 

I wish I could dress as a hobo (actually I kind of already do that) and pump out hadoukens with some viability. I don't know if that would ever get old for me.