Karagga invisible fire. Workaround?

[Moromillas]

Yeah, I've looked on the internet.

 

Ok, we managed to make it to Karagga this week and this is how the first attempt went down:

 

I explain strat and mechanics over vent, until everyone seems to get it. We give it a go, get into position and go at it tank n spank style. A few seconds later I notice that my HP is dropping quite fast, (yes I'm the tank.) Only, there are no debuffs on me, and no extra buffs on the boss, so I just go down like that.

 

Over vent...

"Ok, so what happened there? Why did I die so quickly?"

"Um, you stood in the fire until you were dead."

"What are you talking about? There's no fire there."

"Yes there is, that patch of fire on the ground, right there."

"No. There's nothing there."

"They look like patches of oil with fire in the middle."

"I know what they look like, they're just not there."

"You can't see them?"

"Not on my screen I can't."

"Hey? You guys can see fire on your screen?"

 

We tried a whole bunch of things, different positioning, changing the graphic settings around, nothing worked. A few wipes later we eventually go him down by getting a spotter (one of the few that could actually see them) to demonstrate where to go next then run back to the group, and call when it's time to move him with latency over vent.

 

>_>

<_<

 

Has anyone found a workaround for this invisible fire? I do have my drivers etc updated before anyone asks.

[alifaraaz]

As you may find in future, there's a few fights that have graphical issues such as 2nd boss in EC etc. Truth is the problem exists throughout the game, it's just very intermittent and seen a lot more in effects heavy fights such as EC 2nd Boss.

 

I had the exact same issue back when I first did Karagga and people just thought I was really bad So a couple of suggestions, especially as the tank:

 

1. Turn off all combat fly txt from setting except for 'Damage done to me'. Essentially just trying to guess/keep an eye out for additional damage ticks. (This is especially useful for melee dps with the problem).

 

2. Just kite him slowly around the edge of room. You kinda have to guess the pace. Don't move too fast but yeah that's what I did and about 1min into the fight, out of the blue all the fire patches appear all at once lol

 

3. As you already said, have a spotter who just shouts out 'fire'. This helps you pace your kiting more apporpriately.

[Moromillas]

As you may find in future, there's a few fights that have graphical issues such as 2nd boss in EC etc. Truth is the problem exists throughout the game, it's just very intermittent and seen a lot more in effects heavy fights such as EC 2nd Boss.

 

I had the exact same issue back when I first did Karagga and people just thought I was really bad So a couple of suggestions, especially as the tank:

 

1. Turn off all combat fly txt from setting except for 'Damage done to me'. Essentially just trying to guess/keep an eye out for additional damage ticks. (This is especially useful for melee dps with the problem).

 

2. Just kite him slowly around the edge of room. You kinda have to guess the pace. Don't move too fast but yeah that's what I did and about 1min into the fight, out of the blue all the fire patches appear all at once lol

 

3. As you already said, have a spotter who just shouts out 'fire'. This helps you pace your kiting more apporpriately.

 

Hey,

 

Thanks for the tips, will prolly try them next time.

 

Yeah, I was actually hoping it would be something simple, like the new version of catalyst drivers cause this problem, just do a rollback.

 

Kinda strange that some get it and some don't. Maybe the problem happens for those with ATI cards? What GPU are you using btw?

[Koganei]

There's also a very specific sound effect for when he puts the oil down, of course that still won't let you see it but it'll give you some indication at least

[alifaraaz]

Apparently people have more issues when using ATI, but I know a few who have no problems at all using ATI.

 

I use Nvidia and literally it's pot luck sometimes they turn up without any delay, sometimes it takes 10sec, and occasionally it takes ages. From what I've read on the subject on these board etc, nobody really knows why it happens yet just that some people's pc's sometimes don't load the visuals straight away or something.

[Moromillas]

Hey, after putting in an in-game ticket I got this back in the mail.

Greetings,

 

I am Protocol Droid P2-B5, Human-Cyborg Relations.

 

Thank you for contacting us regarding the Burning Oil ability used by Karagga.

 

Your report has been forwarded to our development team, who will investigate further. Please be aware that when a ticket is escalated for such an investigation, it will no longer be visible to you through the in-game helpcenter.

 

We regret that we will be unable to provide you with further updates on this issue, but recommend checking the latest patch notes at http://www.swtor.com/patchnotes for information on any fixes or changes related to this issue.

 

We would like to apologize for any inconvenience this may have caused, and to thank you again for the valuable feedback you have provided. Please do not hesitate to report any other issues you may encounter while playing.

 

Galactic support is our specialty…

 

Sincerely,

 

Protocol Droid P2-B5

 

Maybe they'll be able to find it and fix it? How long has this been an issue exactly?

[Moromillas]

Apparently people have more issues when using ATI, but I know a few who have no problems at all using ATI.

 

I use Nvidia and literally it's pot luck sometimes they turn up without any delay, sometimes it takes 10sec, and occasionally it takes ages. From what I've read on the subject on these board etc, nobody really knows why it happens yet just that some people's pc's sometimes don't load the visuals straight away or something.

 

Now that just makes it sound like the graphic for the fight isn't getting pre-cached correctly.

[Milya]

I experience this a lot. I suspect the main cause is the general crappiness of my computer. But if dangerous abilities that you must be able to react to in a timely manner could somehow get cached before a bossfight starts, or they could otherwise be prioritized, it might help.

 

I've got Intel Core 2 Duo E4400 processor and I understand it's on the verge of not being able to run this game properly. My GPU is GTX 560 Ti, so it's definitely NOT only a problem with ATI cards. The latest nvidia driver update helped quite a bit with my framerate issues, but the "invisible abilities that kill me" -problem doesn't care about what drivers I am running.

 

In many (or most) fights I can only start seeing some boss abilities after a short delay like 10 seconds, which can often stretch, to about 30s at the most. Sometimes there is no delay at all. It seems to be tied to the time a boss first uses a specific ability, and if we wipe and have to retry the fight I usually have to wait to see abilities all over again. And another thing, I think I have less problems with first pulls on a boss after a tactics briefing than others, but I'm not sure of this. It's just something I've thought of recently and I haven't really tested..

 

Stuff I have problem seeing:

Soa - the green aoes he does at the start of the fight

Foreman Crusher - red circles on the ground where the rock he throws will fall (this was vey annoying when we were learning the fight)

Karagga - Mouse droids, gravity vortex, and I guess the fire too, but I'm ranged so I'm not standing close to where it spawns anyway.

Zorn and Toth - The yellow circle signifying the target for the big rock throw which can end Toth's enrage.

Firebrand and Stormcaller - Yellow targeting circle from firebrand and the storm rods from stormcaller

The last boss in Lost Island: in first phase, the circles on the ground where poison will be thrown, and the poison itself.

There are many others, these are just some that came to mind. Probably because they're been rather annoying to deal with.

 

And err, workaround? I often have to rely on my guildmates yelling at me on Mumble to avoid these abilities early on, or, if it's icky stuff on the ground that does a dot the rolling combat text to show the damage you take can help some.

[alifaraaz]

Yeah, I'm no computer wiz but you're probably right and the pre-cache thing. I've heard the complaints from people with bad computers and good computers on both high and low graphics settings. And from what I've seen it's totally random as to when it does and doesn't happen.

 

I do have a kinda lame processor - which could be a contributing factor. It's just a wait and see kinda problem atm though. BW is aware of it, but I guess they havn't quite worked out why exactly (or how to fix) either.

[KeyboardNinja]

This is definitely the same bug that causes ground effects to fail to render on other fights (like the tanks in EC, or the pylon AoE in Soa first phase). It's definitely an awful bug though, given how the only challenging mechanic in this fight is oil placement.

 

Here's what I would suggest. First, you should have a rough idea of the timing of oil dropping, so you know when to be extra alert. Then, listen for the sound effect and watch for the visual that happens when the oil is going down (there's a tiny black squirt out of Karagga's front quarters). The sound effect is very prominent, so you should catch that pretty easily. When this happens, take six-ish steps backwards. This should bring you right to the edge of the oil patch. Remember that the oil will be centered on you, and its radius is about 4 meters. Try to have an intuitive knowledge of where the boundary will be (note: this helps a lot even if you *can* see the oil, since it makes the kiting much smoother). Watch your fly text for repeated 6k ticks (4k on hard mode, 2.5k on normal) and have a designated spotter who will call it out if you stop moving backward while still in the fire.

 

Following this technique, and assuming *very* good rhythm and positioning, you should be able to tank him around the room without a problem. If your DPS is a bit low, you may loop back on the original oil slick. When this is about to happen, make sure your designated spotter calls it out so you can move inward. Ideally, Karagga will be dead by this point anyway.

 

I'm actually kinda jealous of this bug. It sounds like it would make the fight quite a bit more challenging for the tank! :-)

[Moromillas]

This is definitely the same bug that causes ground effects to fail to render on other fights (like the tanks in EC, or the pylon AoE in Soa first phase). It's definitely an awful bug though, given how the only challenging mechanic in this fight is oil placement.

 

Here's what I would suggest. First, you should have a rough idea of the timing of oil dropping, so you know when to be extra alert. Then, listen for the sound effect and watch for the visual that happens when the oil is going down (there's a tiny black squirt out of Karagga's front quarters). The sound effect is very prominent, so you should catch that pretty easily. When this happens, take six-ish steps backwards. This should bring you right to the edge of the oil patch. Remember that the oil will be centered on you, and its radius is about 4 meters. Try to have an intuitive knowledge of where the boundary will be (note: this helps a lot even if you *can* see the oil, since it makes the kiting much smoother). Watch your fly text for repeated 6k ticks (4k on hard mode, 2.5k on normal) and have a designated spotter who will call it out if you stop moving backward while still in the fire.

 

Following this technique, and assuming *very* good rhythm and positioning, you should be able to tank him around the room without a problem. If your DPS is a bit low, you may loop back on the original oil slick. When this is about to happen, make sure your designated spotter calls it out so you can move inward. Ideally, Karagga will be dead by this point anyway.

 

I'm actually kinda jealous of this bug. It sounds like it would make the fight quite a bit more challenging for the tank! :-)

 

Backpedaling really isn't an option. The healers, they already have their hands quite full with the swirly vortex of death, ground spikes, and mouse droids, and that ground spike is a huge pain in the *** for them. You basically have to have everyone topped up or the spike is gonna hit halfway through a cast, which it usually does. The added damage of having my *** (or someone else's ***) standing in fire and having to heal that much damage is not a good thing, especially when there's so much damage flying around. As a tank you really need to be on the ball, and get ready to piss bolt out of the fire as soon as you see (lol) it. That means either ASAP: strafing, or looking where you're going to run and hold down both mouse buttons.

 

Vent... While it -can- prevent the wipe, it's not ideal. Verbal notifications will always come through a little bit late over vent. Which might not sound like much, but can mean 3 or 4 extra ticks of damage on the tank.

 

And yeah, the whole blindfold thing. I don't mind a challenge and all, but I just don't think it should be there for progression raids. Like, I would want the challenge at the moment to be, getting to the next boss, and getting my boys ready for it, not fighting against bugs. I would like it to be something that is optional in a fight, or something that's an extra challenge in nightmare modes. You know what I mean?

[KeyboardNinja]

Backpedaling really isn't an option. The healers, they already have their hands quite full with the swirly vortex of death, ground spikes, and mouse droids, and that ground spike is a huge pain in the *** for them. You basically have to have everyone topped up or the spike is gonna hit halfway through a cast, which it usually does. The added damage of having my *** (or someone else's ***) standing in fire and having to heal that much damage is not a good thing, especially when there's so much damage flying around. As a tank you really need to be on the ball, and get ready to piss bolt out of the fire as soon as you see (lol) it. That means either ASAP: strafing, or looking where you're going to run and hold down both mouse buttons.

 

I understand this is a challenging fight. I have tanked this fight many dozens of times on difficulties ranging from normal to nightmare. I'm also the raid leader for our group, so please don't think I'm unaware of the challenges faced by each of the group members. Backpedaling as the tank is the most effective solution, even when you *can* see the oil.

 

I never take more than two ticks of the oil (usually only one). I listen for the oil slick sound and backpedal *immediately*. It only takes five-six steps before I'm out of the oil radius, and since it doesn't start ticking until about a second after it lands, that gives me enough time to get out of the way before it hurts me. Side-stepping is an awful idea, since it pulls Karagga out of position and (if you're not careful) can get oil into unpleasant places. Turning around and running is a major threat loss, and unless you're spamming your taunts on cooldown, you won't be able to continue building enough threat to stay ahead of the DPS (assuming your DPS is high enough to beat the enrage timer). Running is also imprecise, and can result in sub-optimal oil placement.

 

This is likely why other people standing in the oil is a concern for you. If you are tanking him correctly, none of the party will *ever* be near the oil. I hate to say it, but this is a situation where you need to modify your strategy somewhat, bugs notwithstanding.

 

Quick sidebar on your healers: if cast times are an issue, then you may consider a slightly different healer composition. It sounds like you're stacking sages/sorcs. While that's not an awful idea (the AoE heal is *dope*), it does lead to interrupt issues like the ones you describe. Try a sage and a scoundrel, or a sage and a commando. Either one of these combinations would work better than two sages, post-1.2.

 

Vent... While it -can- prevent the wipe, it's not ideal. Verbal notifications will always come through a little bit late over vent. Which might not sound like much, but can mean 3 or 4 extra ticks of damage on the tank.

 

Vent has a delay of about 2 seconds. My guild uses Teamspeak 3, which does not have this problem (and is substantially higher quality). TS3 timing is within about 350ms. Mumble is also an excellent option, and it has an even shorter delay (closer to 275ms).

 

Verbal notifications are certainly not ideal, as you say. That's why you need to look for other cues, like the *sound*.

 

And yeah, the whole blindfold thing. I don't mind a challenge and all, but I just don't think it should be there for progression raids. Like, I would want the challenge at the moment to be, getting to the next boss, and getting my boys ready for it, not fighting against bugs. I would like it to be something that is optional in a fight, or something that's an extra challenge in nightmare modes. You know what I mean?

 

I do know what you mean, and I feel for you. However, if you adjust your tanking strategy just a little bit (as I have been attempting to suggest), I think you will find this fight fairly easy even *with* the bug. From what you're describing, I would be willing to bet that you would have problems with this fight even if you were able to see the oil.

[Moromillas]

Ok, I found a program called SWTOR Unleashed, which uses a util called Imdisk to make a permanent cache (not sure if that's the accurate term for it) of the games asset files.

 

The only problem is, I'm not sure where this graphic is in the games asset files. So I sort of have to guess which files to cache. Going to try these files and see if it does anything differently this weekend, that is, IF we make it to Karagga.

 

swtormain_art_fx_1

swtormain_gfx_1

swtoren-us_area_raid_1

swtormain_area_raid_1

[alifaraaz]

Let us know if it does make a noticeable difference

[Moromillas]

yoink

 

You honestly expect me to believe that? So you tank Nightmare modes ehy? And you backpedal out of damage mechanics because it's the way to go, of course. Why anyone would make **** up just to "win" on an internet discussion is beyond me.

 

The oil placement is not dependent on boss positioning. Karagga drops the oil on the player with the highest threat, (the tank) and ONLY that person. If you actually were a tank, you'd know this. Hell, you'd know that if you've actually been to the Karagga fight, or even just seen a video on it.

 

If you're standing in fire, get your *** out of it. This isn't fringe theorycrafting ****, this is basic entry level mmo ****. No you don't dawdle out of it, you get the hell out of it. "Major" threat loss? You're talking about this tiny, miniscule amount of threat, you'd know this if you actually were a tank. No you don't put added pressure on the healers and give them even more to heal just to gain this miniscule amount of threat. Jesus Christ. It's not hard, there's nothing imprecise about it. You hold left mouse and look in the direction you want to go, then hold right mouse when you want to move over there.

 

I have no idea how you arrived at "bad oil placement" and "other raid members dying in the fire" from explaining why dawdling out of the fire is stupid idea, and I don't care. Not going to reiterate, it's very clearly explained in the OP.

[KeyboardNinja]

You honestly expect me to believe that? So you tank Nightmare modes ehy? And you backpedal out of damage mechanics because it's the way to go, of course. Why anyone would make **** up just to "win" on an internet discussion is beyond me.

 

I'm not making anything up, nor am I trying to "win". I'm trying to help you. I only backpedal out of *this* damage mechanic. Most others I sprint forward or to the side. It's a situational thing, and it's important to remember that the oil damage is far less than many other area damage mechanics in the game (e.g. the lightning spires in Lost Island Hard Mode).

 

The oil placement is not dependent on boss positioning. Karagga drops the oil on the player with the highest threat, (the tank) and ONLY that person. If you actually were a tank, you'd know this. Hell, you'd know that if you've actually been to the Karagga fight, or even just seen a video on it.

 

The oil placement is on the tank, but the flame placement is opposite that. If Karagga is standing *anywhere* but directly on his last oil patch, aligned front-to-back with the trail of oil, then your melee DPS will have a dramatically reduced area in which to strike. This is particularly problematic for melee classes that require positioning (e.g. infiltration shadows or scrapper scoundrels).

 

If you're standing in fire, get your *** out of it. This isn't fringe theorycrafting ****, this is basic entry level mmo ****. No you don't dawdle out of it, you get the hell out of it. "Major" threat loss? You're talking about this tiny, miniscule amount of threat, you'd know this if you actually were a tank. No you don't put added pressure on the healers and give them even more to heal just to gain this miniscule amount of threat. Jesus Christ. It's not hard, there's nothing imprecise about it. You hold left mouse and look in the direction you want to go, then hold right mouse when you want to move over there.

 

I don't believe I ever said I "dawdled" in the fire. I take one or two ticks *maximum*. I doubt you will be able to take any less than that, regardless of how you move. In any case, if your movement technique is working for you, then don't change it! I suggested changes because it sounds like your group is having issues.

 

I have no idea how you arrived at "bad oil placement" and "other raid members dying in the fire" from explaining why dawdling out of the fire is stupid idea, and I don't care. Not going to reiterate, it's very clearly explained in the OP.

 

From your subsequent posts. In any case, it doesn't really matter. I wish you luck on this boss!

Edited May 15, 2012 by KeyboardNinja

[Ka-tel]

Ok, I found a program called SWTOR Unleashed, which uses a util called Imdisk to make a permanent cache (not sure if that's the accurate term for it) of the games asset files.

 

The only problem is, I'm not sure where this graphic is in the games asset files. So I sort of have to guess which files to cache. Going to try these files and see if it does anything differently this weekend, that is, IF we make it to Karagga.

 

swtormain_art_fx_1

swtormain_gfx_1

swtoren-us_area_raid_1

swtormain_area_raid_1

 

Please let us know how that works out. Any fix for this problem would be wonderful.

[Darth-Malice]

I have this problem all the time in Lost Island. Doctor Lorrick's targettign things on the ground dont show up so I don't know where too run or the Droid that spawns electricity on the floor half the time doesn't display the first few times and I take damage with no idea whats going on.

[Moromillas]

Ok, we just finished EV and KP.

 

Had Unleashed running, and had those assets cached. Had no problems with it ehy. The first oil spot was visible right after the sound, and all the oil spots that followed appeared to work correctly, just like the first one. So yeah, no issues tanking it, and basically just one shotted it.

 

So, I do think the invisible graphics bug is definitely caused by a caching issue. Either that, or tonight was some weird fluke.

 

I'll see if I can dig up the link for SWTOR Unleashed.

[alifaraaz]

http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=3780118

 

I might give it a go myself next week - see if I have any issues during the Stormcaller and Firebrand fight. If it solves issues on that fight, then I think I'll have to share it with my guild - and well the rest of world

[Moromillas]

So has it fixed the problem for anyone else?

[alifaraaz]

I tried it, but i've not done enough testing to come to a decision whether it's helping.

 

During Stormcaller and Firebrand while running it, certain affects still didn't appear straight away - but i felt like they appeared quicker than usual.

 

However as I said my problems have always been intermittent, so yeah gonna do quite a bit more testing before I can decide whether it's really helping or not.

[Moromillas]

Doesn't work. Just had an invisible green graphic in soa phase one.

 

>_>

<_<

 

Looks like it was a fluke. Really pissing me off now, I sure hope they fix it.

[alifaraaz]

Yeah I sort of came to the same conclusion. I do however think it's loading stuff faster though (not just visuals, but in general everything running better). I guess that's just the general RAMDisk improvements.

[Moromillas]

Found this little gem in the patch notes and was really excited.

 

"Addressed an issue that prevented some encounter effects (such as fire or other damaging area abilities) from displaying correctly for some players."

 

Unfortunately, it doesn't fix anything. Just did both EV and KP, and players (including myself) had problems with Soa phase one, Karagga, and even Annihilator storm protocol graphic. Same thing, it just doesn't show up.

Edited June 16, 2012 by Moromillas