Sentinel/Marauder - The Problem is NOT DPS.

[Guioki]

Why are you comparing AC's in this manner?

 

by your reasoning all the classes should have the exact same cool downs.

 

there are differences between the AC's for a reason. Further to this you are discounting a extrememly basic principle I shouldn't have to explain range.

 

mara / sents have the extra defensive cooldown because they are a squishy melee class. They can't kite and do damage at range it's a trafe off. Without it's cooldowns it would never survive the melee slugfest long enough to actually DPS.

 

why do you think the operative doesn't get force speed like the assasin? it's because they have range abilities.

 

Good examples are cap points in wz objectives, how often do you see a team of commandos and sorcs in voidstar sitting in the middle between doors interrupting bomb planters? they just need to shuffle a few meters between point A and point B and interrupt from range. What melee class can do that?

 

If people continue to look at the AC's from their defensive cooldown list as opposed to their actual role and ability within a wz it will always look unbalanced.

 

big picture people we really should have to spell this out.

 

Your not looking at the big picture, lets say for instance CW. Maras take twice as long to kill as any other dps, so they can live longer and interrupt more on a point then say a ranged class does. See it can go either way, but the only actual metric that is based on fact you can use is that Mara/Sents have far more survivability then any other dps class without actually losing out on DPS.

 

Also assassins have ranged atks, operatives have ranged atks, mara has an attack that negates range and also sabre throw. Mara can use all their attacks but 1 on the move.

 

Every piece of mara offensive utility is attached to a damage ability, sorcs use GCD's to do 0-700 damage, just to keep range, while mara uses his actual dps rotation with added snares in it and interrupts off the GCD.

[HurricaneXXIV]

"Mara/Sents have far more survivability then any other dps class without actually losing out on DPS."

 

How much damage does a Gunslinger lose when he leg shots someone? How much damage does a vanguard lose with a cryo grenade? How much does a sorc lose when they root the mara and attack him?

 

It's a simple concept. Range doesn't need the CD's because they can get out of range of attacks, melee cannot. So melee can either A) Have cool downs B) have stealth and stuns or C) take less damage than the other melee without cool downs ie tanks.

 

This game is balanced, the largest issue people have with Mara's, Ops, Jugs and Assisns is they haven't figured out how to move and avoid damage. That's a skill.

Edited May 13, 2012 by HurricaneXXIV

[Xienive]

Im just mad that Infiltration Shadow is pretty much useless when you can have a Sentinel.

[Xerain]

Or that you need to kill their team in the 30 seconds before a door spawn with a bunch of sorcs who can hit 5k damage on a lucky crit every 15 seconds- compared to some classes that can hit 5k 3 times in as many GCDs.

 

Marauders are anti kiting pros- you have your choice between a 12 sec CD leap, that leap on 15 sec CD but with two bonus roots and 15% bonus run speed, or having two leaps- plus immunity, plus stealth, plus run speed buffs- and with retaliation and CoP in anni- you can even keep CoP up all the time- giving you the best mitigation in the game even before you consider the best defensive CDs.

 

What part of 'best mitigation and defensive CDs, mobility and gap closers, damage and instant attacks' really strikes you as a squishy class?

 

Marauders can hit for 5k 3 times in 15 seconds?

 

Abilities marauders can use to hit for 5k and their cool downs are as follows:

 

Smash 12 second cd

Force Scream 9 second cd

Annihilate 10.5-7 second cd. (the 7 seconds is hard to get to in pvp)

 

Too bad no spec can get all three of those or do it and the only way I hit for 5k with both force scream and annihilate is with everything popped. So please don't act like you know about a class and spout false things.

 

Our mobility is fine and you need to learn to kite better. Obliterate is hardly a gap closer as it's 10m max.

 

The talent to make retaliation lower the CD on CoP is worthless and not worth getting and if you think under any circumstance a marauder can keep CoP up 100% of the time you have no idea about this class.

 

Please know what you're talking about before you speak...

[Xerain]

Im just mad that Infiltration Shadow is pretty much useless when you can have a Sentinel.

 

Too bad tank shadow isn't useless and far more valuable than a sentinel. either 31/0/10 or 27/0/14

[fungihoujo]

"Mara/Sents have far more survivability then any other dps class without actually losing out on DPS."

 

How much damage does a Gunslinger lose when he leg shots someone? How much damage does a vanguard lose with a cryo grenade? How much does a sorc lose when they root the mara and attack him?

 

It's a simple concept. Range doesn't need the CD's because they can get out of range of attacks, melee cannot. So melee can either A) Have cool downs B) have stealth and stuns or C) take less damage than the other melee without cool downs ie tanks.

 

This game is balanced, the largest issue people have with Mara's, Ops, Jugs and Assisns is they haven't figured out how to move and avoid damage. That's a skill.

 

I can keep you rooted, snared, stunned or mezzed for an entire battle on my marauder. That's right, from the moment I get on you til the moment you're dead.

 

So usually 6-8 seconds.

 

Good luck moving when you're rooted or snared to the point you're slower than me.

[CrunkShizzle]

Actually people are starting to realize that PT are OP.

 

darn,i knew i should of rolled a powertech instead of a scoundrel

[Xienive]

Too bad tank shadow isn't useless and far more valuable than a sentinel. either 31/0/10 or 27/0/14

 

For DPSing? Ya know, a Sentinel's job? No...just no. Tank spec should not even come close to a Sentinel's DPS.

[CrunkShizzle]

This game is balanced,

 

please help me,im dieing of laughter

 

this game isnt really balanced.bioware isnt really good on the whole pvp balance thing

[CrunkShizzle]

For DPSing? Ya know, a Sentinel's job? No...just no. Tank spec should not even come close to a Sentinel's DPS.

 

welcome to swtor.the only game where a dps geared tank spec'd class can do good dps

 

not that ive tried it,i thought about rollin a assassin before i made a scoundrel.but i wanted a non force class for an alt,so that meant scoundrel was the choice

[Xienive]

welcome to swtor.the only game where a dps geared tank spec'd class can do good dps

 

not that ive tried it,i thought about rollin a assassin before i made a scoundrel.but i wanted a non force class for an alt,so that meant scoundrel was the choice

 

Yes, they do good DPS but not near to the extent of a Sentinel. And when you're in DPS gear you are not going to be near as tanky as a real tank. I have a Marauder, and a Shadow. I swap between Kinetic and Infiltration on my Shadow.

[Vid-szhite]

Everybody dies when they are focus fired. Even Marauders. They have 1 ability that delays that for 5 seconds (or the escape/Force Camo but Marauders are not the only one with an escape), that they can pop about 5-10 times a WZ total.

 

You make it sound like that's not a lot, but put in context, is still more than any other class. Most other classes get far less cooldowns that don't help half as much. The difference here is Marauders' best cooldowns help them not only survive focus fire, it can make them immune to it. Force Camo will cause everyone to de-target you, and any damage you take is further reduced. You can then run away and come back later or attack someone else. Guarded will make you almost completely invincible for 6 seconds, and no amount of focus fire will be able to fully kill you unless you waited until you were 1 HP to pop it. No other class has cooldowns that help to such a huge degree against Focus Fire, and on such short cooldowns to boot -- most other classes have TWICE the cooldown time on WORSE abilities.

Edited May 13, 2012 by Vid-szhite

[Nagul]

The problem is the Armor/Defense does not balance the Offensive/Damage capabilities of each class. Power Techs and Marauders are fine examples. Damage capabilities of the highest DPS classes in the game without having to sacrifice any survivability.

 

Some say range is a factor. Very limited in this game since almost all the classes have ranged attacks / snares / stuns. Kiting is difficult at best and on a flat playing surface its almost impossible against certain "melee" classes with ranged attacks and Jumps.

 

Armor absorb needs to be balanced by doing one or a combination of three things:

 

1) Add more internal damage to the light armor class attacks (Sorc is a good example of that need)

 

2) Decrease the damage on attacks for Medium and Heavy armor users.

 

3) Completely change the armor system so that one class doesn't absorb 2 to 3 times more damage while having similar offensive/damage capabilities.

 

If you think I'm wrong check the WZ population lately...you will see far less light armor classes than say 2 months ago.

 

Edited May 13, 2012 by Nagul

[fungihoujo]

Marauders can hit for 5k 3 times in 15 seconds?

 

Abilities marauders can use to hit for 5k and their cool downs are as follows:

 

Smash 12 second cd

Force Scream 9 second cd

Annihilate 10.5-7 second cd. (the 7 seconds is hard to get to in pvp)

 

Too bad no spec can get all three of those or do it and the only way I hit for 5k with both force scream and annihilate is with everything popped. So please don't act like you know about a class and spout false things.

 

Our mobility is fine and you need to learn to kite better. Obliterate is hardly a gap closer as it's 10m max.

 

The talent to make retaliation lower the CD on CoP is worthless and not worth getting and if you think under any circumstance a marauder can keep CoP up 100% of the time you have no idea about this class.

 

Please know what you're talking about before you speak...

 

CoP- one min CD, lasts thirty seconds. Retaliation- 6 sec CD, reduces CoP CD by 6 seconds. After thirty seconds, that's potentially 6 retaliation- reducing the CD to 24 seconds. Sorry you can't do math bro.- that said, you are correct- two talent points that can effectively raise your mitigation by 20% all the time are a waste of points because the annihilation tree truly does have so many amazing abilities that something any other class would consider unbelievably awesome is very mediocre. And yes, I'm well aware that most of the time you won't be being attacked enough to retaliate every single time it's up- but, that doesn't change it from being possible, or indeed useful when most needed (ie you're being attacked alot).

 

Also- the 5k was in response to TTK of some classes- not specifically marauders who indeed do not have the largest crits- they have simply far more mid damage abilities- I was referring more to a double rail shot, thermal det, rocket punch from a PT- which can with WH gear and CDs make 3 5k and a 3-4k hit- or, snipers with probe, ambush, insta snipe, and their execute which can also make about 15k (or more) in 3 GCDs (considering the probe deals damage with the ambush and insta snipe.. actually making all the damage within 2 GCDs if you consider the ambush, probe and snipe all hit at the same time- not easy stuff to heal through).

Edited May 13, 2012 by fungihoujo

[SamuraiCrazy]

best offensive with the best defensive cooldowns. thats the problem

 

too much Bruce Lee, this class has

[Xerain]

CoP- one min CD, lasts thirty seconds. Retaliation- 6 sec CD, reduces CoP CD by 6 seconds. After thirty seconds, that's potentially 6 retaliation- reducing the CD to 24 seconds. Sorry you can't do math bro.

 

Also- the 5k was in response to TTK of some classes- not specifically marauders who indeed do not have the largest crits- they have simply far more mid damage abilities- I was referring more to a double rail shot, thermal det, rocket punch from a PT- which can with WH gear and CDs make 3 5k and a 3-4k hit- or, snipers with probe, ambush, insta snipe, and their execute which can also make about 15k (or more) in 3 GCDs (considering the probe deals damage with the ambush and insta snipe.. actually making all the damage within 2 GCDs if you consider the ambush, probe and snipe all hit at the same time- not easy stuff to heal through).

 

I can do the math but you think i'm going to get 6 retaliations off? Lol you must be kidding right?

[fungihoujo]

I can do the math but you think i'm going to get 6 retaliations off? Lol you must be kidding right?

 

It's not overly likely- that's 18 rage in 30 seconds that hasn't gone towards more useful abilities, not to mention you'd have to be under attack the whole time so without a guard on you, or heals you'll probably be fairly close to dead after that long, or out of defensive CDs- but it's not impossible in the slightest, and if your aiming for it you can do it- not to mention even if you only get off 3 or 4 retaliates, you're going to end up with all of a 6-12 second gap where you don't have the bonus mitigation.

 

Point is- you act like I'm an idiot for saying it's possible- when it is indeed possible, and wouldn't be a terrible idea- although not optimal.

 

It also becomes more possible the more you're attacked- making it even more reasonable for a situation when you actually need the mitigation.

Edited May 13, 2012 by fungihoujo

[Vid-szhite]

Marauders can hit for 5k 3 times in 15 seconds?

 

Abilities marauders can use to hit for 5k and their cool downs are as follows:

 

Smash 12 second cd

Force Scream 9 second cd

Annihilate 10.5-7 second cd. (the 7 seconds is hard to get to in pvp)

 

Too bad no spec can get all three of those or do it and the only way I hit for 5k with both force scream and annihilate is with everything popped. So please don't act like you know about a class and spout false things.

 

Our mobility is fine and you need to learn to kite better. Obliterate is hardly a gap closer as it's 10m max.

 

I don't even think you can get two of those at the same time on the same spec. For Scream to crit for over 5k you would need to be Carnage spec and have literally everything popped at once - Bloodthirst, Relic, Adrenal, Gore, and Blood Frenzy. You could do that maybe once per WZ. Scream normally doesn't even crit half that hard, and its normal hit is often less than 1500.

 

For Crit Smash, obviously, you can't have that and Annihilate, which is the 31pt Annihilation talent (crit smash is a deep rage spec talent), so people are once again complaining about the mythical 31/31/31 build. Marauders may need nerfs, but their DPS ain't it.

 

PS: Marauders don't get Saber Throw. They get Crippling Throw and Vicious Throw, which are both 10m maximum, and the latter can only be used at <30% health. Juggernauts get Saber Throw, not Marauders.

[fungihoujo]

I don't even think you can get two of those at the same time on the same spec. For Scream to crit for over 5k you would need to be Carnage spec and have literally everything popped at once - Bloodthirst, Relic, Adrenal, Gore, and Blood Frenzy. You could do that maybe once per WZ. Scream normally doesn't even crit half that hard, and its normal hit is often less than 1500.

 

For Crit Smash, obviously, you can't have that and Annihilate, which is the 31pt Annihilation talent (crit smash is a deep rage spec talent), so people are once again complaining about the mythical 31/31/31 build. Marauders may need nerfs, but their DPS ain't it.

 

PS: Marauders don't get Saber Throw. They get Crippling Throw and Vicious Throw, which are both 10m maximum, and the latter can only be used at <30% health. Juggernauts get Saber Throw, not Marauders.

 

Deadly throw you mean- with the trauma debuff? I'm on my mara looking at it right now. And again- the TTK conversation wasn't about marauders- it was about general TTK- in which such things as sniper/PT quick damage bursts were brought up.

 

Marauders can still do comparable damage- because while we have fewer huge crit abilities, they also have more instant medium damage abilities than any other classes. I also don't run dry- in fact the opposite, every 30 fury I get my burst buffed up to insane levels

[RenegadeSLX]

please help me,im dieing of laughter

 

this game isnt really balanced.bioware isnt really good on the whole pvp balance thing

 

^

Cant fix stupid

[Kayse]

Cannot believe the ignorance I read in this thread.

 

Okay. rebuke/cloak of pain. Don't attack for 6 seconds/kite. Its gone.

 

Saber ward. Use force/tech attacks. 100% accuracy, it does nothing.

 

Undying rage - Aoe cc/cc. Done.

 

Tada, you just beat any sent/marauder!

 

Cannot believe I dont hear more complaints about Powertechs. Heavy armor with 90% arp and the biggest burst in the game put all sents/marauder dps to shame, and i play very well as a sent and im the top sent on Shien. (Click the R60 in my siggy if you want an example)

 

Just got done in a game with one full War hero Powertech who rail shotted me for 7k and 3 hit me in under 5 seconds...Lol'd my *** off.

[Xerain]

It's not overly likely- that's 18 rage in 30 seconds that hasn't gone towards more useful abilities, not to mention you'd have to be under attack the whole time so without a guard on you, or heals you'll probably be fairly close to dead after that long, or out of defensive CDs- but it's not impossible in the slightest, and if your aiming for it you can do it- not to mention even if you only get off 3 or 4 retaliates, you're going to end up with all of a 6-12 second gap where you don't have the bonus mitigation.

 

Point is- you act like I'm an idiot for saying it's possible- when it is indeed possible, and wouldn't be a terrible idea- although not optimal.

 

It also becomes more possible the more you're attacked- making it even more reasonable for a situation when you actually need the mitigation.

 

Too bad the talent is straight up sub par and points are better spent in other places.

 

If we're going by "oh it's possible" banter then ok.

 

You must remember that CoP needs to be refreshed from damage. Do you know how much i pop CoP for it to wear off far below the 30 second mark? A LOT. The thing doesn't even get it's 50% up time that you can see it maxes out at.

 

"Oh but dots will refresh it!" Yeah talk about dots when you run with good healers and having a cleanse around...

[silky_soft_]

want to take our skills away or rebalance them? sure, only channeled cc can survive attacks, everything else gets broken. double cc's, (aoe push and hold/snare), fill resolve to max. no cooldown on leap.

 

also snipers, operatives and pyros need a buff. throw in some more stuns n double cc that wont fill the resolve bar past 300 to make sure they have versitility. oh and allow pyros to take cover. because, we all know that you cant jump to somone that is crouched down in the open but you can get to the once they are airborn.

[fungihoujo]

Cannot believe the ignorance I read in this thread.

 

Okay. rebuke/cloak of pain. Don't attack for 6 seconds/kite. Its gone.

 

Saber ward. Use force/tech attacks. 100% accuracy, it does nothing.

 

Undying rage - Aoe cc/cc. Done.

 

Tada, you just beat any sent/marauder!

 

Cannot believe I dont hear more complaints about Powertechs. Heavy armor with 90% arp and the biggest burst in the game put all sents/marauder dps to shame, and i play very well as a sent and im the top sent on Shien. (Click the R60 in my siggy if you want an example)

 

Just got done in a game with one full War hero Powertech who rail shotted me for 7k and 3 hit me in under 5 seconds...Lol'd my *** off.

 

Between CoP and undying, that's at least 11 seconds, according to you, that you can't attack a marauder- compare that to the zero seconds where it's unwise to attack anyone else, and then consider you just gave a marauder full resolve while doing no damage to him.

 

With full resolve, I'm going to tear you to shreds in a matter of seconds even without CoP and undying- my last WZ I killed a sage from full when I was at 10% health and that's without having to use undying.

 

Ya- PT do more burst than mara, so do snipers- they also have garbage mobility and defensive CDs in comparison- and mara end up with better long term damage.

 

Having midcard burst- when you're top for everything else isn't a reasonable trade at all- especially when you can lock down anyone while you're bursting.

 

TTK is way to short for mara, PT, sins, snipers and ops- but at least snipers, ops and PTs have obvious, easily exploitable weaknesses- and if you honestly are going to tell me 'but marauders don't have mobility' BS- we top mobility, ranged doesn't mean a thing when it's this easy to lock down in melee and gap close. I have to question your claim of being top marauder on your server if you're getting kited all the time.

[fungihoujo]

Too bad the talent is straight up sub par and points are better spent in other places.

 

If we're going by "oh it's possible" banter then ok.

 

You must remember that CoP needs to be refreshed from damage. Do you know how much i pop CoP for it to wear off far below the 30 second mark? A LOT. The thing doesn't even get it's 50% up time that you can see it maxes out at.

 

"Oh but dots will refresh it!" Yeah talk about dots when you run with good healers and having a cleanse around...

 

You got 4 points between close quarters, phantom, subjugation, cloak of annihilation and enraged charge- none of which are extremely vital- maybe one in close quarters but you don't need a gap closer when you're in melee range. While the abilities are better spent in the other abilities- in the end, they're mostly all small buffs to defensive CDs or reductions of their CD time- or 2 points to get one more rage off a leap, nice but annihilation isn't hurting for rage in the slightest.

 

Shorter disruption? Well sure- a 6 second disruption does mean you can literally lock out a non-heal spec sorc's only heal worth casting literally forever- 4 sec lock out, 3 sec cast vs 6 sec interrupt- do the math. 1 or 2 sec only makes a difference if you're so hardcore into interrupts you know you'll use it every single time it's up.

 

In the end though- it's arguing over mediocre talents.