A Tub Scrubber's Opinion

[ScrubinMuhTub]

Background: 4 years as a WoW Rogue. First character was a 50 Infiltration Shadow, rerolled as a 50 scrapper scoundrel post 1.1.5. I have a 46 Vanguard Tank that I play with a 46 Sawbones Scoundrel friend for fun, and a 23 Vengeance Juggernaut for the lulz.

 

This thread is mostly rambling and TLDR.

 

I'd like to talk today about what is slowly becoming my most lamented class to play: the scrapper scoundrel. I primarily have played alpha-strike, stealth type, utility driven classes in almost all genre of games from Pen and Paper to Video to LARP, MMO, RPG, Console or PC. The Shadow was an incredibly EPIC feeling character, ripping rocks out of the ground, force waving things, huge range on force stun, two bladed lightsaber... it felt amazing. When I started doing operations it really began to show that it was just a squishy melee class with stealth, and not the really hard hitting alpha strike rogue-type class I was looking for, and my 'second' main character was born. He washes tubs, he doesn't scrub them.

 

As a scoundrel I quickly filled all four hotbars with numerous class abilities and grenades, read all the posts about 5k shootfirsts and 50% armor pen and though, "That's insane." I was a post-1.1.5 nerf scoundrel and I hadn't felt that nerf. I'm going to tell you now that I never would have finished that character if I hadn't had a friend riding my *** to level with me from 18-41, because the scrapper tree is full of uninteresting, boring talents all the way up to the end, bar the rare talent here or there. It was brutal. Upper hand generation is a crock of ... garbage until mid 20's, stealth serves about as much purpose as it did the shadow until you hit 36... really? You have to go that far into the game before stealth gives you a reason to stealth outside of your cc? It really felt like I was on a forced march through the levels, with none of the epic appeal of the other classes. Lightsaber envy quickly set in.

 

Funny that phrase. "Lightsaber envy." I started using it more often, because despite how ridiculous it sounded, I really felt like I was playing the bastard child of the game. This truly was the 'alpha strike' Advanced Class in the game, and so this is where I belonged, but it was being done this great disservice. And that's what I'm here to talk about, mostly.

 

I am not a healer. Healing for me is about as good an idea as pulling toenails out with a bottle of whiskey and a rusty pair of pliers. I am a sneaky snake, hit em from behind type character and I like how that's being handled. There are a good number of things that I *do* like so far. I enjoy being able to recouperate hitpoints while engaged in combat. This is especially important given how combat is handled in this game. (Another sticking point which I disagree with.) I appreciate the lack of homogenization; that there is a distinct feel and playstyle to even similar roles (infiltration shadow versus scrapper scoundrel). I enjoy the animations, and even the shotgun (which I once detested, wanting the knife instead). Some changes, such as the recent 'nerf' to Freighter Flyby seem unneccessary reduction in 'fun' are simply changes to quality of life. I can't call my ship to do a flyby, enter stealth, then shoot someone in the back as the ship drops napalm on their heads anymore. That's unfortunate, as that was a moment of derived joy for me. Not the end of the world though, these are Developer changes that I can adapt to.

 

Jagged little pills that I am forced to swallow are the battering ram of nerfs over the outcry of what feels like 'popular concensus'. Maybe I'm using the wrong terminology here. When was the last time the lot of you mates out there took a good hard comparable view at the scrapper tree? Compare that stuff to my personal enemy number one: Vigilance Guardian tree. You can compare it to a large number of other trees really, but this for me is my personal vendetta.

 

Say I'm doing PvE content for the night. I'm basically locked into talents like K.O. (Gives Shoot First a 100% chance to knock the enemy flat on their face for 1.5 seconds for 2 talent points) Does this really do anything to improve my performance in operations? How about Fight or Flight? (Dodging or Resisting an attack restores one energy and you can be healed after you vanish for 1 talent point) I don't know about you, but my 5% chance to dodge isn't very effective at 'gaining energy', and my 3seconds of dodging every 60 seconds isn't going to generate much energy either, if I'm even being attacked, which I probably shouldn't be anyways, right? As for the healing, that -100% healing debuff goes away when you come out of stealth, so... just come out of stealth. But the problem is, you can't avoid talents like this to get 'good talents', because there really aren't any good talents to take.

 

What are some other options if you are determined to avoid talents like the ones mentioned above for pve? You can get 2% defense, and 2% resist. That'll boost your dodge chance up to 7%, and your resist chance up to 2%. Keep in mind, this isn't damage reduction, this is resist chance. I actually used to enjoy taking that talent for pvp. Rarely resisting a force wave in Huttball was like a small victory inside given that a run from the pit took a good while. Either way, that's two talent points and completely lackluster, you aren't going to need the stealth detection in an operation.

 

Another option if you are desperate to find something to benefit you in PvE is the healing received. That's about the best one in the whole tree, and I take it every time over... Tendon Blast, which for two points gives you a 2 second root on your snare. This is a pvp talent, but it's difficult to avoid in order to get to your 31 point talent.

 

Are you starting to see the picture, Community? My 'archtype' Has about 10 talentpoints that are pretty lackluster of their own right, but are downright strictly PvP related, and are nearly unavoidable in order to get that 31 point talent for PvE players.

 

Let's avoid going into the 'switch to dirty fighting' tangent. Give bleed crits an upperhand with a 6 second internal cooldown a'lah flying fists and I will for PvE.

 

OR

 

OR

 

OR

 

Take a hint from Vigilance.

 

Start folding your talents together. When I'm doing dailies, or leveling as a scoundrel as my 'alpha strike' archetype', and I take two points in K.O., I'd be glad to know it did something else, like increased the crit chance on backblast, or gave a debuff to the mob, or made some ability i had cost less, or gave me a buff to encourage me to use Disappearing Act in ops, or something that just plain stopped talents like that from being PvP only.

 

Basically every tier, or every other tier, leave that juicy extra 2point talent out there that's the 'pvp option' that is frequent in many other talent trees among many other classes, but stop making it mandatory for scrappers to take them just to get to 31 point talent. Why do they have to take 5-10 filler talents that don't boost performance in PvE just to play the spec?

 

Rename K.O. to Sawed Off, and combine the two talents. Replace Sawed Off with Generator Flux, an ability that acts exactly as sentinel Camo with no damage reduction or speed increase, and has a 45 second cooldown. In tier4 add a 2 point talent that increases damage on bleeding targets by 2% (4% total). Change Stopping Power to Each point increases the range of Tendon Blast by 2 yds and has a 100% chance to root the target by 1.5 seconds (4yds and 3 seconds at 2/2). If you want to keep Fight or Flight with it's dodge mechanic, it's really a clear tie in to using your cooldown to regain energy. That's a pretty high skill playing field move, and very interesting stuff, but to that effect, the cooldown on Dodge needs to be reduced dramatically. Survivability, TTK, and cooldowns is something that can be talked about later. Lastly, fold Brawler's Grit and Suprise Comeback together. Heck, you can call it Suprise Grits, or Gritty Comeback, or Brawler's Surprise. Brawler's Grit is an extremely lackluster talent for a melee dps role. I propose a 2 point talent, Third tier, +2/4% Endurance, Pugnacity restores 3% health every 4/2 seconds.

 

Are these buffs? Yep. Are they burst buffs? Maybe. Am I tired of being nerfed to the ground? Yep. Mostly, I just have lightsaber envy. Take some time and look at that Vigilance tree. Think about 'item budgeting'. Coin that phrase and then think of 'talent point budgeting'. I'm tired of '2 points for 4% endurance on a dps class' and 'dodging gives you 1 energy' when my dodge chance is 5% talents. There's a pretty clear disparity when a 2point guardian talent gives a 15second cooldown an 'extra' 4seconds of cc immunity AND 20% damage reduction, at 3rd tier. Makes some of the suggestions above look like childs play.

 

Cooldowns: Everyone's got some. Sentinels have four. On average, most classes have two, by my count. I know, I know, I'm trying to count beyond my education level. So for my plug against 'overpowered sentinels', here it goes:

 

You have a 99% damage reduction cooldown that lasts for 5 seconds, it reduces your hp by half. If you have 18khp, you hit it around 4khp left, bringing you to 2khp, then you use a wz or rakata medpac, and go back up to anywhere from 7k-10khp depending on which you chose. Both are off the global cooldown, and now you have 5 seconds 99% damage reduction.

 

After that, you have Rebuke, for 20% damage reduction AND damage reflection. If you didn't know, this works on dots as well, so pop it when that (me) scoundrel vital shots you, and he can't Disappearing Act/run away, your rebuke will pop him out of stealth.

 

After that, you have Camo, for 50% damage reduction for 4 seconds, on a 45 second cooldown.

 

After that, you have Saber ward, for a 50% 'white hit' deflection chance, and a 25% tech/force damage reduction for 12 seconds?

 

Sentinels are unique, you see, because each one of those has HARD DAMAGE MIDIGATION. My suggestion?

 

Guarded by the Force could be a last ditch effort. Perhaps give it a -99% healing received penalty as well. A player could still use this mechanic to absorb high damage spikes in pvp (such as nightmare Soa lightning balls) and be healed afterwards, while effecting a change in pvp. One tree could perhaps have a talent that removed this healing penalty.

 

OR

 

Completely remove the hard damage mitigation from Rebuke, and instead increase it's damage reflection in exchange. A sentinel that popped rebuke could 'scare away' people from damaging him/her because of the reflected damage, which is a theme in many boss encounters in PvE. This would become a 'smart' damage mitigation, where players could choose to bite the bullet or not. Talents could effectively increase this damage reflection as well, creating more 'pvp talents' that could be options for sentinels.

 

OR

 

Give the 'threat drop' it's intent and purpose, a threat drop/target drop, let it drop combat (I'm tired of a sentinel using camo and not being able to also stealth), but completely remove the damage mitigation. I'm not even sure why it was ever there to begin with.

 

In reality, this player's opinion is Saber ward with one 'sentinel only' damage mitigation (guarded by the force) is appropriate. One of the QQQQQQQQQ reasons for so many posts is the over the top number of survival cooldowns in PvP with low TTK.

 

Back to survivability cooldowns, and scoundrels.

 

We have two, they are lackluster.

 

With the recent change/buff to dirty fighting (mostly in regards to gunslinger) in that dots applied will fall off and apply weaker versions of themselves, there is created a problem. You see, both stealth classes are given a one 'get out of jail free' card when it comes to 'oh shoot, I need to vanish'. Ours is called Disappearing Act, and our cousins get Resilience.

 

Resilience is still doing it's job. It removes all the dots and gives immunity to force and tech (immunity to the new weak dot), allowing the shadow to vanish. The scoundrel must first cleanse, then 'dodge', then disappearing act, as the dodge will remove the weaker dots that are left over. This is some random observation.

 

On to the meat and potatoes.

 

Dear Bioware: If you would like to keep the talent for scrappers that 'gain 1 energy for dodge/resisting attacks', please move dodge to a 30 second cooldown, or allow for scrappers to talent it to 30 seconds so that we can more frequently make use of this talent, possibly merging this new talent into the one mentioned previously.

 

Clearly it would not be used in operations, but in solo daily grinds, leveling up, changes such as the one above would liven up the tree, give it a more thoughtful play, and let those talents have a more stylized impact on what you do. As it stands, every player that asks me how to level a scoundrel gets the 'sawbones until 40' speech. 40 levels of healing until you get fletchette round is not the scrapper way.

 

As far as defensive screen: I like the idea, the animation, and how it fits the class, but it is a terrible, awful bubble.

 

First: If I Disappearing act, and use defensive screen, and the defensive screen absorbs incoming damage, let me stay in stealth please, as I did not take damage.

 

Second: It's duration is 15 seconds, but it absorbs 2-4k damage and 'is done'. The animation stays. I would like to see something that changes this in a unique way that also simultaneously differentiates this from 'sage bubble.' Something that persisted after the first 2-4k was absorbed that endured for those 15 seconds. This would have the dual purpose of giving that sawbones talent that increases self heals some purpose. If you know what I'm talking about, you are probably in arms about that as well.

 

Maybe giving it a 2-4k damage absorb, letting it have it's damage absorb crit and surge chance of the player, to absorb more, after it pops, what else can the defensive screen do to help increase the players survivability for 15 seconds? It doesn't have to be magnificent. The dodge cooldown is so absolutely terrible already, but unlike other classes, these two defensive cooldowns can be good enough on short cooldowns.

 

Dodge on 30 seconds? Let me use that to restore some energy in pvp, that'd be fun. It would make that 1 second extra set bonus not stare me in the eye with hatred too. Defensive screen absorbing 5k sometimes? gives me 10% damage mitigation and dodge and resistances for it's duration of 15 seconds? Those are just wild ideas the last three, but something that's gonna last 15 seconds...

 

I personally prefer things I can use once every fight, but that's me. What do you guys think? I'm sure the flame throwers are already lit and ready to go, but I got tired of staring at the backside of my very attractive cyborg smuggler considering hanging up the hat because the 'lol unstoppable' juggernaut and his incredible talent trees' or the four amazing defensive cooldowns of sentinels, or why is that 60% armorpent talent still tier 1 for vanguards and not tier 3 where it should be... just silly'.

 

I believe our gap closer is our stealth. I think a tiny bit more range talented on tendon blast and the extra second root would be good considering the prolific number of sever force sages out there these days, and the rest, is TLDR above. I'm interested in seeing what the community has to say.

Edited May 7, 2012 by ScrubinMuhTub

[ScrubinMuhTub]

I forgot to mention:

 

Most scrappers are using 2p pvp set bonus and 2p pve set bonus. This causes alot of problems with gearing and I'm sure is unintended. I'd really like to see scrapper enforcer 4p pvp set bonus changed from 105 energy to 15% increased chance to crit on backblast and shootfirst, so that I can finally part ways with these columi shells with battlemaster armorings in them.

[ScrubinMuhTub]

Too Long, Didn't Read Version

 

Rename K.O. to Sawed Off, and combine the two talents. Replace Sawed Off with Generator Flux, an ability that acts exactly as sentinel Camo with no damage reduction or speed increase, and has a 45 second cooldown. In tier4 add a 2 point talent that increases damage on bleeding targets by 2% (4% total). Change Stopping Power to Each point increases the range of Tendon Blast by 2 yds and has a 100% chance to root the target by 1.5 seconds (4yds and 3 seconds at 2/2). If you want to keep Fight or Flight with it's dodge mechanic, it's really a clear tie in to using your cooldown to regain energy. That's a pretty high skill playing field move, and very interesting stuff, but to that effect, the cooldown on Dodge needs to be reduced dramatically. Survivability, TTK, and cooldowns is something that can be talked about later. Lastly, fold Brawler's Grit and Suprise Comeback together. Heck, you can call it Suprise Grits, or Gritty Comeback, or Brawler's Surprise. Brawler's Grit is an extremely lackluster talent for a melee dps role. I propose a 2 point talent, Third tier, +2/4% Endurance, Pugnacity restores 3% health every 4/2 seconds.

 

...

 

Guarded by the Force could be a last ditch effort. Perhaps give it a -99% healing received penalty as well. A player could still use this mechanic to absorb high damage spikes in pvp (such as nightmare Soa lightning balls) and be healed afterwards, while effecting a change in pvp. One tree could perhaps have a talent that removed this healing penalty.

 

OR

 

Completely remove the hard damage mitigation from Rebuke, and instead increase it's damage reflection in exchange. A sentinel that popped rebuke could 'scare away' people from damaging him/her because of the reflected damage, which is a theme in many boss encounters in PvE. This would become a 'smart' damage mitigation, where players could choose to bite the bullet or not. Talents could effectively increase this damage reflection as well, creating more 'pvp talents' that could be options for sentinels.

 

OR

 

Give the 'threat drop' it's intent and purpose, a threat drop/target drop, let it drop combat (I'm tired of a sentinel using camo and not being able to also stealth), but completely remove the damage mitigation. I'm not even sure why it was ever there to begin with.

 

In reality, this player's opinion is Saber ward with one 'sentinel only' damage mitigation (guarded by the force) is appropriate. One of the QQQQQQQQQ reasons for so many posts is the over the top number of survival cooldowns in PvP with low TTK.

 

...

 

Dear Bioware: If you would like to keep the talent for scrappers that 'gain 1 energy for dodge/resisting attacks', please move dodge to a 30 second cooldown, or allow for scrappers to talent it to 30 seconds so that we can more frequently make use of this talent, possibly merging this new talent into the one mentioned previously.

 

...

 

First: If I Disappearing act, and use defensive screen, and the defensive screen absorbs incoming damage, let me stay in stealth please, as I did not take damage.

 

Second: It's duration is 15 seconds, but it absorbs 2-4k damage and 'is done'. The animation stays. I would like to see something that changes this in a unique way that also simultaneously differentiates this from 'sage bubble.' Something that persisted after the first 2-4k was absorbed that endured for those 15 seconds. This would have the dual purpose of giving that sawbones talent that increases self heals some purpose. If you know what I'm talking about, you are probably in arms about that as well.

 

Maybe giving it a 2-4k damage absorb, letting it have it's damage absorb crit and surge chance of the player, to absorb more, after it pops, what else can the defensive screen do to help increase the players survivability for 15 seconds? It doesn't have to be magnificent. The dodge cooldown is so absolutely terrible already, but unlike other classes, these two defensive cooldowns can be good enough on short cooldowns.

 

...

 

I'd really like to see scrapper enforcer 4p pvp set bonus changed from 105 energy to 15% increased chance to crit on backblast and shootfirst, so that I can finally part ways with these columi shells with battlemaster armorings in them.

[CDWthoon]

But, Akaavi Spar is overpowered, isn't that enough?

[devroz]

I agree with it all pretty much. I quit playing Concealment Op after 1.2 and went Lethality. Even then I get run over by sents/maras who can mitigate their deaths with an out of place defense cooldown. Assassins are hardly better as they can totally mitigate all my tech damage forcing me to attempt to overload shot or rifle shot. Still I scrap as hard as I can and outgear the **** out of most players and still seem to lose poisons keeping me in combat too long. I wish I had any kind of movement enhancement to make the fast plays that I feel an agent would. Sorry for my rant, and for you sorcs, mercs, and pts that I can roll, but I'm hardly the biggest threat out there.