Someone explain the LFG tool hate?

[Thorene]

My dislike of an LFG system is thus:

 

1) You have fewer incentives to make friends. In a game without a LFG system, when you develop relationships with other players, you are rewarded by being able to do group content without spamming chat. In a game with a LFG system, you are rewarded as much for not making relationships with other players as you are for making friends, for the purposes of flashpoints. Since maintaining relationships in a game like this is actually work, people will take the path of least resistance.

 

2) An LFG system actually hinders your ability to make friends in the game. When you play in a game with a cross-server LFG system, you are automatically matched with people who are on other servers. These are players you will never run across in the game world, who are impossible to communicate with outside of the flashpoint you're running, and who even if you become fast friends with in the period of 45 minutes that you're running the flashpoint, you won't be able to play with again, barring a server transfer.

 

3) A global LFG system means that you will rarely get to play with the same players more than once. Most of the friends you make in a game like this aren't from single encounters. If you make a friend here, it's generally because you've played with them a few times and have enjoyed playing with them. A global LFG system will generally mean you won't ever play with the same person twice in a row. And even if you did, the previous issue of it being impossible to coordinate playing with them a third time comes up.

 

 

I think an LFG system can work well if it takes those points into consideration.

 

If a cross server LFG system attempted to match you with players from your server first, and then maybe considered other servers "nearby" so that maybe if you're on the "Black Vulkars" server, it will try the "Bondar Crystal" for players before trying other servers. That way even if Black Vulkars is a low population server, you're most likely to play with people from either your own server or Bondar Crystal, giving you a higher chance of repeatedly playing with the same people.

 

If a cross server LFG tool rewarded you in some fashion for queuing with friends that would be beneficial. For instance, if you queue with a friend, maybe everyone in the group gets an extra crystal at the end of the flashpoint, or a random box. Other games like WoW have gone the opposite and rewarded you for playing with strangers, but I think rewarding you for playing with friends is a better scenario. You can always play with strangers, that's the easiest scenario. If you are rewarded for playing with friends you'll be motivated to develop relationships.

 

Finally, a cross server LFG tool should allow you to play with friends that you met over the cross server tool. This would mean you'd have to be able to add them to your friends list, you would have to be able to chat with them, and you would have to be able to at the minimum queue up for other LFG tool content with them. Ideally you should also be able to do other sorts of content in the world, like heroic daily quests and whatnot, with friends you met through the cross-server tool, but I recognize that would be a very significant technical hurdle, so I'm not going to hold my breath there.

 

 

If a cross server LFG tool could do that, then I would be absolutely thrilled by it.

 

Still, the game is with few enough things to do once you hit the level cap, and a cross-server LFG tool will give players something to do on servers where organizing groups in the traditional fashion is impossible. Obviously the worst thing that can happen to a community is to have nobody playing the game, so anything that keeps people playing is of net benefit. However, I think that with a few tweaks, a lot of the ways that a LFG tool can harm the development of a community can be turned into ways to help grow the game community.

[Wolfeisberg]

Clearly you missed my point so I will try again:

 

Prior to the LFG tool in WoW the most common abusers were the members of the biggest guilds. They could treat other people poorly and ninja anything they wanted because they controlled the server completely.

 

If they wanted to ninja something and you complained, you had a hundred of their guildies all spamming that you were the one who tried to ninja, not their buddy. Bad bahavior and such actually went way, way down after LFG was started because the few elitists lost their stranglehold over the servers.

 

Nobody should be forced to to-the-line to a tiny number of elitists just to experience some of the endgame material.

 

 

 

Having a "bad rep" on a server only means a lot of people said something bad about you, not that you actually did what they say.

 

This, exactly my experience. In Vanilla/Burning Crusades time, if there was someone from the biggest guilds, or even worse a raider from the biggest guilds, more often the not it run went horribly. They would cause wipes cause they thought "dur, this is childs play compared to Raiding" then go all Leroy Jenkins, they also tended to be the ninja looters cause they needed the money for raiding repairs, and they tended to be the jerks about various things about ones character or gear.

[kitsinni]

When it comes down to it even if there is an LFG tool you don't have to use it, you can still spam chat and do it your way. So the only reason to be against it is to complain. If you think it will bring all the "bad" players .. even better .. just don't use it and you won't have to worry about grouping with bad players they will all be using the tool.

[DarthTHC]

Yes I would indeed care to. Accountability is having the option to advise your fellow server occupants that said person joins groups to "Ninja" loot, to create problems during runs, to waste the play time of others. So those that are aware can make a choice not to group with that player and save themselves the pain in the arse experience they may be in store for.

 

A server community will police its self to an extent if given the ability to do so. When players are outed for the things they willfully do and are isolated due to that activity they either are forced to rethink how they play or move along. That is the accountability process in practice.

 

Are you aware that BioWare's stance is it's fine to click the Need button if you need the credits you'd get from vendoring the item, thus invalidating every single "Ninja" argument?

 

And how do you do that notification of your fellow players?

Edited May 1, 2012 by DarthTHC

[Cerion]

Clearly you missed my point so I will try again:

 

Prior to the LFG tool in WoW the most common abusers were the members of the biggest guilds. They could treat other people poorly and ninja anything they wanted because they controlled the server completely.

 

If they wanted to ninja something and you complained, you had a hundred of their guildies all spamming that you were the one who tried to ninja, not their buddy. Bad bahavior and such actually went way, way down after LFG was started because the few elitists lost their stranglehold over the servers.

 

Nobody should be forced to to-the-line to a tiny number of elitists just to experience some of the endgame material.

 

 

 

Having a "bad rep" on a server only means a lot of people said something bad about you, not that you actually did what they say.

 

You make a convincing argument here.

[Skidrowbro]

The biggest thing that happens with cross server LFG is the content nerfs. And don't even say they won't happen. In WoW dungeon runs are what 10 mins long of aoe snorefest?

[Shaidown]

I find it amusing how you state this and then go on to say you don't want to play with people on other servers.

 

i dont think you understand the difference

 

Can you chat with people on other servers? Can you have a guild?

 

a cross-server LFG creates the absolute worst PUGs.

 

server wide LFG - YES

 

Cross-server LFG NO

[chaosdefined]

But it seems reasonable that x-server LFG should restrict to same server type (i.e. RP-PVE, PVE, PVP, RP-PVP, etc). If that still proves to be a barrier to completing FPs via LFG, then a priority system might work, where you're only grouped with dissimilar servers if same-type servers can't provide a group member for the queue..

 

I can work with that idea.

[Wolfeisberg]

The biggest thing that happens with cross server LFG is the content nerfs. And don't even say they won't happen. In WoW dungeon runs are what 10 mins long of aoe snorefest?

 

They weren't nerfed, people just got geared up more quickly because they were able to do runs more often. Not to mention the more often you do it the better you get at it. So repeating plus better gear equal ez mode instances. Also, that is how Blizzard designed the instances in the first place, they purposely got rid of the need for CC from the get go.

Edited May 1, 2012 by Wolfeisberg

[Evangolis]

You meant: in your opinion... as there are no stats or evidence to support your sensational claims. In fact seeing as the majority of people use it if the tool is available in other games... your opinion that all servers will explode and the game will super nova... seems a bit on the excessive side.

No from my experience AND my opinion. There is no supporting evidence for the position that cross server LFG tools do not affect server communities adversely as well.(Other then the fact perhaps the main reason it has not been in place is fact enough?). Maybe this is your opinion at play here as well? I made no sensational claims btw, only that the FACT that server communities are affected adversely by cross server. To deny that this happens is naive.

 

 

 

Again, the communication process seems to break down... you can group with your buddies... no one is stopping you, so stop trying to keep us from playing how we want.

 

Oh I'm not trying to stop you from enjoying the game. I'm just objecting to the server communities and player accountability being compromised.

 

 

 

So, they will be put in Swtor jail if they are mean or ninja loot? I fail to see the repercussions as the server pops are rotating so fluidly and will triple in that aspect once transfers are open... there is no real way to hold anyone accountable for anything other than reporting them... and you can do that x-server just as easily as on server...

 

No, they will face the possibility of being isolated and punished for their play practices by their fellow players of the servers they are on or if they change the one they land on. Yes...server community ostracizing does work...and works very well. The likely hood of x server reporting being used is ZERO because of how it can be used to grief others reputations. Try to make your case to player x's server if you wish but, unless player x has a rep for doing the same there you are pissing in the wind.

 

 

 

Your vision is admirable but not as practical as you may hope.

See what I did there? I used your own quote to answer your own quote... and quite well I think... funny that huh?

 

Actually...its not that cleaver but thank you for quoting me.

 

 

 

I honestly see no community in the /general chat that is fleet on the servers I play on... and where did this pressing NEED for a community come from... there is no community inherent in an MMO... its just massive, multi-player and online...

If it were a MMOC... Massive Multiplayer Online Community... then you might have a leg to stand on in your "community" argument?

 

The concept of community on servers is as old a as muds & mmo's, even back as far as chat rooms each one has their OWN community. Your "We are the world" concept is a community all in its own. The fact there is a COMMUNITY section in these forums confirms the community aspect. The very fact BW themselves speak of community assures it. I feel my idea of server community is on VERY stout legs.

[chaosdefined]

Oh ya logic eh. So now players will get trolled in chat for asking for a group because they don't want to use the system. Way to form a community

 

If everyone uses LFG, doesn't talk on General and trolls anyone who does, what does that say about your sacred community in the first place?

[rhirne]

This is one of the best examples someone has offered for the so called "community" argument against a LFG tool.

 

The problem is, the "community" he speaks of has never existed in this game. Sure, there are a few very tiny pools of Elitists who are trying to preserve "their idea" of what a MMO "should be" but they are mostly trying to preserve their own feelings of superiority over the other players. This person clearly shows that he desires to boss other people around and if they do not do as he orders them to do, they should be punished, excluded and shunned.

 

Each of us pay the same money to play this game, why should only the most self-centered Elitists be allowed to tell everyone else in the game they are not worthy to see endgame content?.......

 

I completely understand the "community" never existed in this game; but then again, a "community" was never fostered either. And I never said the "community" was to have some sort of superiority over someone else. Where did I ever that? And I said I want to boss other people around? You're writing words I never even said; and I clearly stated that EVERYONE HELPED each other and communicated with each other. Again, I can tell you have not experienced the type of "community" I and others have been speaking of.

 

Look at the forums and how people are treated are the forums. The go in-game and see how people are treated in-game. Respect begets respect. Name-calling and flaming are not neccisariy. Why can't there me a civilived disscussion about a topic without people flaming, name-calling, and other wise being all around jerks. As far as the "shunning, punished, exclusion" part you speak of. It is NOTHING like you think.

 

Example (I'll use an old-school playground game): Everytime you play dodgeball, there is 1 person who always throws headshots - no matter what. You continually warn them to stop day after day. So do you keep playing with them? No you don't. You no longer have them in your group. If they stop throwing headshots, they can start playing with you again. And you will probably warn other groups too that all this person does is throw headshots. They will either find a small group who loves throwing heatshots at each other, or they will stop throwing headshots.

 

It's the same with the game. If you know someone on your server who whenever they join a FP / operation, uses a lvl 1 weapon (green) and wears lv1 5 (green) gear, you will not want them either because at that point, they are nothing more than a hinderance and you would not want to party with them either. When they finally understand "Ohh.. I need to wear the correct gear" then OK. But when told over and over again "please wear the correct gear" or "as the healer, can you please heal us" or "when you see SD-0 casts xzy ability on you and you see that glowy circle, run in the OPPOSITE direction of the other person and as far away as you can" and they continually disregard it, it's not about being elite.

 

If a person refuses to listen to reason, refuses to learn how any operation / FP is done, refuses to learn how their own abilities work, refuses to listen to any type of help from anyone, then yeah, they can go ---> way. I'm not being elite, but when your gameplay directly effects me, I do have a right; because as you said, we are all paying customers.

 

I also understand about people who have odd times that they play in. Thing is, there are some things a person can do to help with that. When I was working night-shift, I knew that when I would play an MMO, I would probably want to chose a server that the timezone was in more of a prime-time for them, so that there would be plenty of people. it might be 10 AM here, but if it's 5-6 PM there, I'm coming at at their primetime. I know it's not always a feesable option, but it is one none-the-less. And the server transfers should help with boosting the player count on several servers that are lower pop servers.

[Sasheria]

I personally don't "hate" LFG group unless

 

1. I can prevent a "bad player" from joining. So if I use LFG, it will check my block list and don't add X person to my group. (this will be difficult to code IMO unless we use "real ID tag" or something similar.

 

2. I can somehow group with the person who is AWESOME again. (currently cannot be done for Heroics and work only on instance only)

 

3. I can get that person to "transfer" to our server (or vice versa) when you find a cool player to do that. (currently not available)

[kitsinni]

Sadly this is the world today, I don't want to use something that you want so I will do everything in my power to stop you from getting what you want because I don't want it, even if I wouldn't be forced to use it in anyway.

[Wolfeisberg]

No from my experience AND my opinion. There is no supporting evidence for the position that cross server LFG tools do not affect server communities adversely as well.(Other then the fact perhaps the main reason it has not been in place is fact enough?). Maybe this is your opinion at play here as well? I made no sensational claims btw, only that the FACT that server communities are affected adversely by cross server. To deny that this happens is naive.

 

 

 

 

 

Oh I'm not trying to stop you from enjoying the game. I'm just objecting to the server communities and player accountability being compromised.

 

 

 

 

 

No, they will face the possibility of being isolated and punished for their play practices by their fellow players of the servers they are on or if they change the one they land on. Yes...server community ostracizing does work...and works very well. The likely hood of x server reporting being used is ZERO because of how it can be used to grief others reputations. Try to make your case to player x's server if you wish but, unless player x has a rep for doing the same there you are pissing in the wind.

 

 

 

 

 

Actually...its not that cleaver but thank you for quoting me.

 

 

 

I honestly see no community in the /general chat that is fleet on the servers I play on... and where did this pressing NEED for a community come from... there is no community inherent in an MMO... its just massive, multi-player and online...

If it were a MMOC... Massive Multiplayer Online Community... then you might have a leg to stand on in your "community" argument?

 

The concept of community on servers is as old a as muds & mmo's, even back as far as chat rooms each one has their OWN community. Your "We are the world" concept is a community all in its own. The fact there is a COMMUNITY section in these forums confirms the community aspect. The very fact BW themselves speak of community assures it. I feel my idea of server community is on VERY stout legs.

 

 

again, the vast majority will not listen to some guy over the general chat accusing someone of being a ninja looter, the accuser probably has a greater chance of being on someones ignore list then the accused at that point. The community accountability has not worked in practice since WoW, not for the majority of the people, just the few who thought their clique was the community. And yes, the biggest offenders of ninja looting, being jerks, ect were ones that knew they could get away with it because they were in bigger guilds, or in one of the top guilds.

[Evangolis]

Are you aware that BioWare's stance is it's fine to click the Need button if you need the credits you'd get from vendoring the item, thus invalidating every single "Ninja" argument?

 

And how do you do that notification of your fellow players?

 

You are aware that every MMO allows that as well. If your pathetic enough to take a piece of gear from someone that may need and use it, that you have no use for other then for mere credits then I am not interested in playing with that sort anyway.

 

The minute I find out this person has done this several times I will not group with them. Its validation enough when a player proves the constant habit of doing this. Of course I don't roll on what I cant use so I must be missing out on a lot of credits huh.

[Evangolis]

The concept of community on servers is as old a as muds & mmo's, even back as far as chat rooms each one has their OWN community. Your "We are the world" concept is a community all in its own. The fact there is a COMMUNITY section in these forums confirms the community aspect. The very fact BW themselves speak of community assures it. I feel my idea of server community is on VERY stout legs.

 

 

again, the vast majority will not listen to some guy over the general chat accusing someone of being a ninja looter, the accuser probably has a greater chance of being on someones ignore list then the accused at that point. The community accountability has not worked in practice since WoW, not for the majority of the people, just the few who thought their clique was the community. And yes, the biggest offenders of ninja looting, being jerks, ect were ones that knew they could get away with it because they were in bigger guilds, or in one of the top guilds.

 

Guild size does not matter, a jerk regardless of guild size is a jerk. It worked in WoW very well...Thunderhorn is one of the oldest servers in that game and if you we're shown to be a jerk to group with...most players that knew would not group with you...or if they did they took their chances. If they ignore the accuser they do so at their own peril.

[Evangolis]

I am just going to have to say that we must agree to disagree...I just do not support cross server LFG. Server LFG however is just fine to me.

[ferroz]

i dont think you understand the difference

 

Can you chat with people on other servers?

In wow? Yes. In everquest a decade ago? Yes.

 

Can you have a guild?

sure you can have a guild; there's not even a reason to prevent cross server guild invites in fact.

 

a cross-server LFG creates the absolute worst PUGs.

No, bad people create the worst pugs. The bad people exist whether there is cross server lfg or not

 

server wide LFG - YES

Cross-server LFG YES

[ferroz]

I personally don't "hate" LFG group unless

 

1. I can prevent a "bad player" from joining. So if I use LFG, it will check my block list and don't add X person to my group. (this will be difficult to code IMO unless we use "real ID tag" or something similar.

that's how the lfg tool in wow works; it doesn't require realid, just that you add them to your ignore list.

 

2. I can somehow group with the person who is AWESOME again. (currently cannot be done for Heroics and work only on instance only)

Currently works in WoW with an enhancement in the works (replacing realid with the battletag system)

 

3. I can get that person to "transfer" to our server (or vice versa) when you find a cool player to do that. (currently not available)

Works in RIFT currently for free and in wow for $$$

[Cerion]

Sadly this is the world today, I don't want to use something that you want so I will do everything in my power to stop you from getting what you want because I don't want it, even if I wouldn't be forced to use it in anyway.

 

To be fair, some things others want, but I don't, might very well be detrimental in the long run. Take smoking for example. Some people want to smoke. I don't want to smoke. But I will try to put some restrictions on your smoking because a). the second hand smoke is dangerous (and smells awful). b). your increased medical costs drive up my health care costs too.

 

Anyway...that's off topic again I suppose. Point is, people are bringing up concerns about long term, less immediate ramifications of x-server LFG. Personally, I think both sides have made good points.

Edited May 1, 2012 by Cerion

[Mallorik]

In a game were you can easily level to 50 solo, only need 4 people to do a vast majority of the content and 8 people to do all of the content you will never have a strong community.

 

Im not bashing bw for lowering the need to group with people, with the base that mmos have today if you made it impossible to level to 50 easily solo, and had raids that required 40 people you would have a game with a very small population.

[Sasheria]

As for "ninja loot" the only way (that I can think of) will resolve this (but people will hate it)

 

Lets say BH boot drops.

All BH in the group will get option Need/Greed/Pass while everyone else who is NOT BH will get Greed/pass.

 

this system will prevent ninja unless they are of that class. Of course people will go "What about my companion" that is where greed comes into play. BUT not everyone think this way. I feel that need should only apply to your main character only and not companion, but there are times when I run with my guild that none of us need it so we all greed for it.

 

The other option would be

Need for Self

Need for companion

Greed

Pass

 

Need for self ONLY apply if the class match. Need for Companion only available if the group leader allow that option.

 

That way the rolls will be

Need for self first (if class match) Need for companion (this can get complex like SI DOES NOT have any chara that use +aim so this could get difficult if we are getting specifics) Greed (work as always) and pass (same)

[Pahomi]

People who are complaining about this are incredibly selfish and ignorant. Go ahead and have your harmonious community and do FP and ops together...no one is stopping you. But why take this away from the rest of us who play this game casually and don't want to get together at a schedule and raid at the same hours. There are a lot of people who need a cross server LFG tool and I don't believe all the doomsday talk that this will kill communities. You can still have your precious community with a LFG tool and this way people like me can actually enjoy group content as well.

 

PS: I guess BW can make an option in the LFG tool so it would look for people on your server only if they want but on half of the servers it's still going to take hours to find someone so cross server is a definitive must.

[shadowrouge]

Hoping someone can explain why the hate for the LFG tool that seems to abound on these forums, and if my thinking is so way off mark! Having played MMOs since Ultima Online, through SWG, WOW, RIFT, EQ, STO, LOTRO etc, I have seen various implementations of the above tool, and can honestly say, the tool improves MY gaming experience massively, just wondering why the hate, and how it has such a negative impact on others

 

So far the common arguments I have seen, which dont seem to hold any weight are:

 

'It ruins the community' - really? I fail to see how general chat spam of "LF2M Healer and Tank" over and over quantifies as community (and normally in caps)!! Those who argue you should make your own friends and guild mates, well then clearly you are very fortunate to have so many friends playing SWTOR at the same time who are wanting to instance at the same time that you wont need the LFG Tool, so again, I fail to see why the hate.

 

'All that is needed is a Global General Chat' - this would be great, but again would just be filled with spam, and also all the idiotic chatter about chuck norris, or how someone did something to someone elses mom, and actually have very little impact on LFG due to your message being lost in nonsense, not to mention that you have to watch the chat closely incase you miss your option.

 

'It ruins immersion' - normally from pvpers who like to gank people onroute to instance, or from people who want to see peeps travelling. Seems as all the instances are on the Fleets, then again, a LFG tool, even with insta telepor, would hardly ruin this?

 

'People can ninja with immunity' - probably the only valid argument i can see so far, but seems as most items are usable bny anyone and their companion, and people already role on items for their companions, it again looses weight.

 

As I see it the LFG tool means I dont have to spend Ages trying to find a group by sitting in Imperial fleet watching the drivel in general chat, I can play the game, with friends, whilst waiting for my group to assemble. Those who are violently opposed to this dont have to use it afterall, and can continue to spam, or play with their friends. The only valid reason I can think of is that maybe those who oppose it so much are such terrible players, they are afraid their 'friends' will abandon them if it is easier to get a group?!!!

 

Those of you who take time to post constructive posts, thanks, hope it will help to educate/Develop my understanding. Those who just flame, OMG LFG tool is terribad with no justification, please save it for one of the other million threads about LFG tools!

 

First off I am not against a LFG that is done right. Say like the one in DDO. I have played MMOs for what feels like ever and DDO has the BEST LFG out of every single one out there. Now to adress your points.

 

1)It ruins the community. It only ruins the community if it is cross server. In a cross server LFG you aren't playing with people you are ever likely to play with again. Possible but slim to no chance. How is that not hurting the community? Your not interacting with those of your server.

Your not helping those of your server to advance in any way. Your helping YOURself and strangers to advance. And that hurts the community.

 

 

2) All that is needed is a global chat channel. Here I agree with you 100 percent. But a LFG channel that can be turned off in Global or a tab set to be just LFG would not hurt either. If your looking for a group and others are as well you can be in that channeled tab and see every one trying to find a group.

 

3)it ruins immersion. Here I kind of agree and yet disagree with you. If your constantly in a cross server LFG doing quest your own server population for world quest and exploration is smaller. You don't have a living world any longer. You have a world were every one is sitting on their ship, by themselves waiting for their chance to get into a cross server LFG. Thus you have no one on planets thus dead worlds and that kills immersion.

 

4) people can ninja with immuntiy. Ninjaing is going to happen reguardless. So I don't see this arguement much either. But if you know your not going to see these people again and that one item that is really hard to drop falls and there are loot rules in place you are more inclined to ninja it for an alt because whos going to complian to your server if they aren't from it.

 

And finally ummmm if your playing he game with FRIENDS but looking for a cross server group why? When I game with friends we are running FP, OPS and quest TOGETHER not running around as a group hitting mobs in the world and going " Oh hey my group is ready got to go run such and such FP"