Someone explain the LFG tool hate?

[Skidrowbro]

Why is this so hard to understand? It's simple maths,

 

Why is it so hard to understand that an LFG tool is in place and you can use it with relative ease? These are not console games. And again as I have stated numerous times in this thread, even if you are on an empty or near empty server, with cross server LFD you will still be on that empty server. Will you be here complaining that the group quests are now too hard and they should be nerfed so you can solo them? What do you do at lvl 50 for your groups quests?? Cross server will not save you for those.

 

You can also re-roll onto another server that suits your playstyle and wait till transfer come into play so you can have your precious stuffz again.

 

Bioware did what they had to do in the beginning by opening up more servers and if they didn't the forums would have been lit up by a christmas tree with more I quit threads because of queue times. It's more the playerbases fault on why the game is at where it is than Biowares.

Edited May 3, 2012 by Skidrowbro

[ferroz]

And again as I have stated numerous times in this thread, even if you are on an empty or near empty server, with cross server LFD you will still be on that empty server.

Eh, it lacks all of the problems of an empty server at that point... so the fact that it's still an empty server is irrelevant.

 

Will you be here complaining that the group quests are now too hard and they should be nerfed so you can solo them?

Nope

What do you do at lvl 50 for your groups quests??

Solo them, or find one other person of any class/spec to duo them with.

 

And that's only if I bother doing the ones that are actually repeatable. I've done all of them, so there's no much point in redoing most of them.

Edited May 3, 2012 by ferroz

[Skidrowbro]

Eh, it lacks all of the problems of an empty server at that point... so the fact that it's still an empty server is irrelevant.

 

Nope

Solo them, or find one other person of any class/spec to duo them with.

 

And that's only if I bother doing the ones that are actually repeatable. I've done all of them, so there's no much point in redoing most of them.

 

Do you understand what MMO means? or even RPG for that matter?

[ferroz]

Do you understand what MMO means? or even RPG for that matter?

Yes. MMO is massively multiplayer online. A RPG is a roleplaying game. I fail to see what either of those questions have to do with the quoted text.

 

A game where everyone can friend, group and raid with anyone else is an mmo, even if some particular divisions of that mmo have low populations. And as long as you're playing a role, it's a roleplaying game as well.

 

 

Some of us like a challenge.

Nothing about cross server lfg causes any change to that challenge.

 

Nerfs to content cause changes to the challenge. Cross server lfg does not in any way require nerfs to content.

 

And with cross server as been proven from WoW and Rift cause collapses in groups because randoms just can't seem to get their crap together and learn mechanics of fights

No, both of those games had a history of nerfing content to make it accessible that predated a cross server lfg.

 

At best you can claim that they nerfed content after a cross server lfg tool was added.... but that doesn't prove any sort of causal relationship. At best you can show correlation

 

Happened in WoW

Correlation <> causation, and wow had been nerfing content for years before the cross server lfg tool was added.

 

WoW went from a decently challenging game to a Hello Kitty Playland

No, wow was an aoe snorefest before cross server lfg, and remained that after the lfg tool was added. It became even easier because the tool entered the game with a significant increase in the next tier of gear, with no corresponding increase in the difficulty of the old content. Edited May 3, 2012 by ferroz

[ferroz]

You lack logic in understanding that there already is a LFG tool in the game and refuse to accept that, if people were to actually start using it, the game would not be "tedious" as you claim it to be.

No, it still would be just as tedious as he was claiming.

 

a couple of weeks ago the current lfg tool could not allow me to form a group for taral V normal; there was no healer on between levels 25 and 45. This was the case all evening.

 

The current lfg tool does not fix the problem; on the other hand, a cross server lfg tool would mean finding a group in seconds, instead of going all evening without a group... it actually fixes the problem

Edited May 3, 2012 by ferroz

[MahBo]

That's right BioWare, I can post again mwahahahahhahahahaa

[discosoc]

Explain the LFG tool hate?

 

It's trendy to complain about anything that's considered popular. I blame "hipsters."

[ferroz]

Explain the LFG tool hate?

 

It's trendy to complain about anything that's considered popular. I blame "hipsters."

interesting theory.

 

So making something easier is not making something easier?

The cross server lfg tool doesn't make anything easier. It just makes it less tedious.

[Valkirus]

Then let me elaborate, people don't use it because they are anti-social and lazy. Which makes the few people who do use it not get much out of it. How is something that shows EVERYONE that you are looking for a group for something not very useful? You can be on Tatooine and see that someone on Ilum wants to do a world boss kill on Coruscant.

 

Pfft. It does not work because as several in this thread have posted before, they are sick of trying for hours on end trying to get a group to run a simple flashpoint. It has nothing to do with being lazy, but a lack of a good tool for finding groups, esp on low pop servers. Many have flagged themselves as "Looking for Group" and still not get a invite for a group quest or flashpoint for hours on end. And how about stopping with the name calling?

[Skidrowbro]

Yes. MMO is massively multiplayer online. A RPG is a roleplaying game. I fail to see what either of those questions have to do with the quoted text..

 

So you will complain about not having an X-server LFD but stay on dead server, gotcha

 

A game where everyone can friend, group and raid with anyone else is an mmo, even if some particular divisions of that mmo have low populations. And as long as you're playing a role, it's a roleplaying game as well...

 

Kinda hard to make friends on a dead server eh?

 

 

Nothing about cross server lfg causes any change to that challenge...

 

Bad players not knowing how to not stand in fire does cause content nerfs. And more bad players showed up with cross server.

 

Nerfs to content cause changes to the challenge. Cross server lfg does not in any way require nerfs to content.

 

See above

 

No, both of those games had a history of nerfing content to make it accessible that predated a cross server lfg.

 

At best you can claim that they nerfed content after a cross server lfg tool was added.... but that doesn't prove any sort of causal relationship. At best you can show correlation.

 

Rift nerfed it's content into the ground once cross shard came out because the bads couldn't handle it. Their experts are now normal dungeons.

 

Correlation <> causation, and wow had been nerfing content for years before the cross server lfg tool was added.

 

Nerfs are common but the hammer swung harder after cross server LFD

 

No, wow was an aoe snorefest before cross server lfg, and remained that after the lfg tool was added. It became even easier because the tool entered the game with a significant increase in the next tier of gear, with no corresponding increase in the difficulty of the old content.

 

Nope, once cross server LFD came out dungeons that were huge and long and took roughly 2+ hours to complete could be completed in 10-30 mins

Edited May 3, 2012 by Skidrowbro

[Valkirus]

You blame LFG and now Cross server LFR to have made WoW easier. It has definitely made WoW more accessible. Getting yourself started on raiding is not as daunting as it was back in Vanilla.

 

But, there's a whole niche bracket -- the heroic raids which are more challenging now than they ever was. So, WoW hasnt been completely neutered like you claim. Blizzard just created a new tier of more casual raiding beneath the hardcore layer.

 

The team work, coordination stuff that you are talking about are still extremely important for heroic fights. Most top guilds in WOW rate Heroic Ragnaros in Firelands as the toughest encounter created in the history of WoW. So, no-- WoW has not been dumbed down to the level of hellokittyonline?

 

Very true and in thier next expansion, there will be "Challenge Mode" for 5 man heroics. Which for those wanting to be more challenged , they can run those everyday and with higher rewards for doing so.

[Seabelle]

If they implemented a LFG tool that didn't blow it out the bum, I'd be all for it.

 

My reason's why I hate LFG tools due to past experiences and my idea of what could be better are in the spoiler.

 

It's a giant wall of text. Mostly about the Queueing system from WoW because that's the MMO I played the most and did the most grouping in, whereas Rift I played long enough with my guildies to get some LFG chat runs in but quit before the tool was put in. (At least, I think it's put in now, I don't have a clue. I remember everybody kept going !!! about it when I still played.)

 

 

I warned you it's giant..

 

 

I quit WoW (inc. Wow rant) because I was to the point where other then logging on a couple times a week endgame raid for 4-6 hours, I was burnt out on leveling after hitting the account character-max and PVP had gotten dull. So, whenever I tried to do some heroics for badges and some extra cash, or to gear up that alt I wanted to get into raids, Nobody else in my guild really wanted to do heroic runs unless a certain player was on or if it was a specific queue for a mount or w/e else at the time, so X-server queueing it was.

 

Which usually meant as a tank/healer/dps, I had to constantly keep on my toes and ferociously go after my gear and whatever else dropped that I actually NEEDED for that toon in order to progress gear wise. (Yay! Gear rating! Barf.)

 

Seeing as it took like seven years for Blizzard to put in the "If you need a BOE in a queue'd group, it turns BOP." change, I lost out on several epic BOE -BIS at that point in time- Upgrades to people who wanted it to cash in on the AH or give to their alt. (Which I suppose is just another term of "I'm just going to sell it but I'm just telling you I'm giving it to a alt to seem like less of a douche :)")

 

If Bioware could make the Boe -> BOP on need changes on release of the LFG Tool, I'd be good with that. At least when some jerk takes it to "Sell" he finds out he's only going to get 5k-10k-20k instead of "300k" or whatever price they'd stick on it per server.

 

Another thing is how would Bioware make needing items work? Would it be your type of armor class, your class, or your main stat or what?

 

I remember in WoW it got to the point in these fantastic PUG runs where you'd occasionally bump into people who either wanted the item just for sh*ts and giggles or to "RP" with, even if someone in the group could actually use said item as a upgrade to their current gear.

 

I have also read several rants and heard ingame so far about people who have lost orange/epic upgrades to someone of the same armor type (IE: Marauder taking Imperial Agent gear, vice versa) just to yank the mods out and replace with their mods for 'better' character outfits.

 

I'm also pretty sure I don't want Joe Jr. taking my tier gear I've been busting butt to get just so he can slap it on his companion so he can watch it kill lowbies or help daily and otherwise sit in dust whenever he's doing FP's/Operations.

 

 

OR you'd end up with people who would come in a randomized queue grp and you'd either be the ONLY person not from that server/guild in the run, or maybe it'd be you and some others and then the guilded people. All sorts of combinations. I had this happen a lot where we'd go into a queue, I'd get stuck with Jim Bob and his guildie(s) and once something he and someone not in the guild needed, both would hit need + his guildie(s) would wait to see if someone else than Jim Bob hit need to need as well just to "win and trade" it.

 

This was especially a problem back when people needed that stupid armor penetration trinket from TOC regular, everybody and their grandma had some kind of shifty plan in order to get their mitts on it when it FINALLY dropped.

 

I swear to god if that happens in SWTOR I'm going to break out the DBZ SSJ screaming and explode pixels everywhere @_@

 

Another thing is, how would it affect the community of a server? I can see it helping the dead/stale/low population servers right now since they're like "LF FP!" and 1 out of the 6 people online will respond, but at the same time it might get to the point like it did in WoW.

 

I played on several servers during my time in that MMO, and when queueing got REALLY underway (End WOTLK/early Cataclysm) the majority of the time I'd get into queues with nobody actually from my server, or end up in a group with alot of people from one server that were actually amazed they got into a group with someone else from where they were from.

 

So this meant I only made new friends outside my guild by either having an alt on the server the people I was currently playing with were, or adding them to my real ID and then poking them through that. Repeatedly.

 

For those who go, "Well, why didn't you try LFG chat/general chat when you were in populated cities to see if other server players would group with you?" I tried. It worked rarely by then. Why? Because of gear rating and the fact they had third party damage meters in.

 

If you didn't have this, or didn't have that, you weren't fit to group with because you obviously blew it out the rear. It's not real enlightening sitting there in Cataclysm waiting for like, Throne of the Tides and being told you don't have like 3000 million gearscore and have Deathwing on farm and that means you'll hinder their precious speed run.

 

And as for making those "new friends" across the servers in a queue group, most of the time I got into a run, nobody would talk at all. If they did, it was usually insulting somebody else about how they suck at tanking, dpsing, healing, their hair is the wrong color, they're pulling wrong, their mom sucks, etc.

 

And plus since most servers are better on PVE progression than others, you'd come across the people who just had hissy fits if the run wasn't done in 10-15 minute speed runs because they were used to getting in with super geared players. To them, anybody who was in (god forbid) a green or was new to the game/being max level could go die in a fire because they were less on the equality meter than flea poop is.

 

Flea poop is pretty low.

 

... Do they even poop?

 

If we had a choice to toggle between CROSS SERVER queueing and PRIMARY SERVER (the one you play on) queueing, I'd be even more for that. Because I could still have the chance to get in with my server if I wanted to group outside guild runs, and on the days I'm feeling brave, switch over into the XServer queue and see if I get lucky.

 

There also would be a need for Bioware to put in a kicking system that worked and had somewhat of a chance not to be abused. It's incredibly dumb having to wait forever in a group to get a replacement when someone thinks it's cute to start the vote-kick system just because the person they want out is "less than perfect" or spells wrong or smoething and then having to wait for the new tank/healer/dps. On some nights, the group usually just falls apart after 30m of waiting..

 

The majority vote works, and at the same time doesn't work. I don't think it's fair if Jim Bob & his 2 guildies vote to kick the dps out and I hit no and pop goes the dps anyway and we're stuck there forever while Jim Bob & so just ninja left and right.

 

Then there's the issue if your groupmates just booted so and so for a reason and the next guy in is a total jerk, you can't boot him.

 

I remember a run where I had to listen for the last half of HoO the new replacement belitted everybody in the group over just about everything he could think of. I couldn't leave because I needed an item off Rajh.

 

Speaking of leaving, if you didn't like the group you were in - usually it was too late for you to ditch because you had gotten locked into the instance via save and wouldn't be able to grab it again until the randomizer decided it liked you enough to drop you in again.

 

On the topic above, I think you should also be able to specific queue for something more than once. Sure you wouldn't get the reward for randomizing if they put one in like Blizz did, but you'd be able to go "Well this group isn't fitting my needs" when it's not working out/ninja'ing happens/douchebaggery, and drop and requeue to try again. I understand this could be abused by people with no honor, but it would sure help if you got locked and the group failed/item didn't drop/lost roll for item, etc.

 

I also would want the ability to /ignore players from other servers, so if we're not working out together, they ninja, are exceptionally rude, etc, I can just pop them on ignore and never see them again for the rest of my time in SWTOR queueing.

 

ON a more even personal note to why I would hate the LFG Tool if it's not put in well/a certain way (yes, im selfish)

 

My grandfather plays MMOs. He's the whole reason I'm totally a nerd, because I started playing videogames with him when I was 7 back in the 90s. I got into the whole MMO deal to have something to play with him, since he's much better at computers than trying to figure out a PS2 or Xbox controller. While he might've been a spring chicken back in the 90s, he's terminally ill due to heart and lung problems/disease and his reflexes are slowly getting worse and worse, and other then watching endless amounts of TV, MMO's are his only real way to have social activity with people other than the dozen or so guildmates he started out with in the early 90s and our family.

 

WOW he wasn't too great, and Rift he managed to make it through by our guildmates patience and macros. Now he's to the point where he doesn't notice a lot of things on screen, and while he can still do FPS & Operations (He's currently one of our top dps sages in our HM Ops/Normal Denova runs) he does it -slower- and has more chance to screw up then he did years ago.

 

I can deal with jerks in heroics/hms/whatever, I can snarl back at them, iggy, drop, whatever. Stress to me is nowhere as bad as stress to him, because when he gets stressed/angry, he starts having breathing issues. I had to sit there and play hawk-eye whenever he got into a heroic run in WoW because I didn't want his reaction times and general "huh" to get him the wrath of elitist off-server players. I used to run the randomizer with him and would patiently explain to him who the tank was and everything while everybody else was about to go up the wall because they wanted their quicky runs.

 

I also hated having to explain to him why he couldn't have this piece of gear because someone else needed it to 'sell' or rp with or give to their guildie who in the overall roll rolled much lower than he did on the need. It was also incredibly hard trying to explain to him why people kept wanting to resort to booting him/being rude to him because he wasn't doing 10-20k dps at the time due to his reflexes. I have been in groups before where new players/slow players, etc, might do less dps than what everybody thinks is the absolutely NECESSARY off the dps charts for stuff, but while it takes longer - those groups HAVE killed the bosses and HAVE cleared the heroic. It just takes patience. And some repair money.

 

I want my ol' man to be able to play his new favorite game with other people outside the guild, especially when there's only him or one other person on and not enough for a full group for a FP, and I want him to be able to do so without getting a new hole ripped into him because someone is impatient or wants to jack gear, etc. I think if the LFG system is put in right, it can be accomplished.

 

Especially being able to toggle between X server and primary server. Because then he can queue up with other people on our server and get to know them on a more personal note for later/friends list, etc.

 

My explanation above started out as a semi-rant and kind of dwindled, so I apologize for spelling & grammar issues and whatever else.

 

 

 

 

I might come back and add more to this thread later, but right now I worked myself so up into a string I forgot most of what else I had on hand/thoughts. Also planning on coming back and editing a few bits after I reread it a couple times once my head clears.

[Valkirus]

Nope, once cross server LFD came out dungeons that were huge and long and took roughly 2+ hours to complete could be completed in 10-30 mins

 

Which is why they decided to go back to the WOTLK quicker dungeons for MOP. One of the most unpopular Dungeons in Cata is Dreadmines. Not because it is tough, but because it is longer than the others. The game is played mostly by casuals who donot have 2 hrs to run a 5 man heroic. There are allways options for those who want to play longer and want more of challenge. Or are you tied up on the fact a player can get Tier armor sets by doing 45 min Dragon Soul raid runs using the Looking for Raid tool? You do realize those sets are not as powerful as the normal and heroic versions? And I can assure you the Normal and esp Heroic versions of that raid take longer than 45 mins.

[ferroz]

So you will complain about not having an X-server LFD but stay on dead server, gotcha

No, I'll ask for an xserver lfg tool and point out how it fixes the problem and how a single server one doesn't fix the problem, as well as why the current lfg tool doesn't fix the problem. In addition to that, I'm not interested in re-rolling on another server.

 

Kinda hard to make friends on a dead server eh?

Not at all. I can make friends-a-plenty with cross server lfg.

 

Bad players not knowing how to not stand in fire does cause content nerfs.

No, game developers that want to please the majority of their audience cause content nerfs, especially when they've used content nerfs for that reason for several years.

 

And more bad players showed up with cross server.

The exact same number of bad players showed up with cross server.

 

See above

Nothing you said above contradicts that fact: Nerfs to content cause changes to the challenge. Cross server lfg does not in any way require nerfs to content.

 

Rift nerfed it's content into the ground once cross shard came out because the bads couldn't handle it. Their experts are now normal dungeons.

Actually, they nerfed that content into the ground before single server lfg came out, and then followed that up another half dozen or so nerfs well before cross server was released.

 

Nerfs are common but the hammer swung harder after cross server LFD

No, they've done more nerfs before cross server than after cross server.

 

And even if it did (which isn't the case) you're still not showing anything other than correlation.

 

The reality is that both games were already nerfing the content to make it more accessible, and that cross server didn't cause the nerfs in the slightest.

 

Nope, once cross server LFD came out dungeons that were huge and long and took roughly 2+ hours to complete could be completed in 10-30 mins

That's just totally false: the dungeons were already easy, and could already be aoe stomped through in 10-30 minutes before lfd.

 

If you were taking 2+ hours to do a dungeon before lfd was released, it's kind of laughable for you to be calling people "bads"

Edited May 3, 2012 by ferroz

[Skidrowbro]

Which is why they decided to go back to the WOTLK quicker dungeons for MOP. One of the most unpopular Dungeons in Cata is Dreadmines. Not because it is tough, but because it is longer than the others. The game is played mostly by casuals who donot have 2 hrs to run a 5 man heroic. There are allways options for those who want to play longer and want more of challenge. Or are you tied up on the fact a player can get Tier armor sets by doing 45 min Dragon Soul raid runs using the Looking for Raid tool? You do realize those sets are not as powerful as the normal and heroic versions? And I can assure you the Normal and esp Heroic versions of that raid take longer than 45 mins.

 

Hmmm, I don't recall using the word raid.

[Valkirus]

Hmmm, I don't recall using the word raid.

 

Sorry. I just think of end game content being raid level and the cross server tool we are debating I am mostly interested in end game content, such as Flashpoints and Operations. I consider Flashpoints end game content because of a lot of story related content in them. And they are considerable tougher than say 4 man heroics.

I can solo some level 50 2 man and even 4 man heroics...but no way I can solo a level 50 Flashpoint. lol!

So I do apologize for my misunderstanding there.

[DarthTHC]

The actual genre. To some MMORPG's are a hobby. And some of us are tired of seeing games that we liked get run into the ground. A single server LFG is not what the debate is. It's the cross server and what it brings to these games. Some of us like a challenge. And with cross server as been proven from WoW and Rift cause collapses in groups because randoms just can't seem to get their crap together and learn mechanics of fights

 

How does x-server promote more unskilled players than single-server?

[Skidrowbro]

Sorry. I just think of end game content being raid level and the cross server tool we are debating I am mostly interested in end game content, such as Flashpoints and Operations. I consider Flashpoints end game content because of a lot of story related content in them. And they are considerable tougher than say 4 man heroics.

I can solo some level 50 2 man and even 4 man heroics...but no way I can solo a level 50 Flashpoint. lol!

So I do apologize for my misunderstanding there.

 

Haha, no worries. I am not getting all bent out of shape over the arguments we are having. some of the arguments may actually help bioware decide on how to implement a proper tool.

[discosoc]

How does x-server promote more unskilled players than single-server?

 

It doesn't. I mean, there's a paranoia about worst-case-scenarios involving getting paired with people who will act like idiots because they assume they'll never see you again after, but several years of experience sort of proves that wrong. At any rate, there are group kick features for a reason.

[Skidrowbro]

It doesn't. I mean, there's a paranoia about worst-case-scenarios involving getting paired with people who will act like idiots because they assume they'll never see you again after, but several years of experience sort of proves that wrong. At any rate, there are group kick features for a reason.

 

You are very much off track. I could care less about being grouped with bads or idiots. It's either I kick them or I leave. It's the bads being grouped together that end up getting content nerfed because they are, well, bad.

Edited May 3, 2012 by Skidrowbro

[Skidrowbro]

How does x-server promote more unskilled players than single-server?

 

You can either ignore them or teach them. Kinda hard to with players you'll never see again

[DarthTHC]

You lack logic in understanding that there already is a LFG tool in the game and refuse to accept that, if people were to actually start using it, the game would not be "tedious" as you claim it to be. You do not need to be paired up with every single other person in the game in order to find groups, and all this does is destroy communities.

 

A much more accurate example is that you want to have a neighborhood party, but not a lot of people in your neighborhood can do it at the time you want, so you call in people from outside your neighborhood simply so you can have your party when you want to have it. Where is the neighborhood community in a get together that doesn't involve the neighborhood? If you do not like your neighbors and want them to be more active, are you going to run around screaming that they need to change or move to a better neighborhood?

 

I'm not asking my neighbors to change and I don't need to move to a better neighborhood. I want to have a party and if my local neighbors aren't interested in coming, I'm fine with inviting my friends from out of town.

 

As I said, the tool clearly doesn't work right now. Not by only my definition, but by BioWare's too. If they thought it worked just fine, they wouldn't be investing the effort/money/time to enhance it, right?

[DarthTHC]

You are very much off track. I could care less about being grouped with bads or idiots. It's either I kick them or I leave. It's the bads being grouped together that end up getting content nerfed because they are, well, bad.

 

And with that you're assuming BioWare will make the same bad choices Blizzard made.

 

BioWare has already shown they understand there need to be tiers of difficulty in all group content. Notice they're now supporting "Story" and "Nightmare" mode. Story mode can cater to the "bads" and get simplified into sims online. Nightmare mode can be for the rest of us.

[DarthTHC]

You can either ignore them or teach them. Kinda hard to with players you'll never see again

 

I'll never see some of the players I've grouped with already on this server again. Yet in some cases I've taught them.

[Darkulous]

They did not lose those subs because of the cross server LFG tool. You really think they are so dumb they would expand and improve upon a feature that caused them to lose a lot of subs?

 

NO! Everyone who has left WoW in the last couple of years left BECAUSE of the LFD. There can be no other explanation! My point will have no validity if this were otherwise!

 

hehe.

 

I took a year long break a while back, it wasn't because of LFD. People cancel subs for many many reasons:

 

1. Most people have left because they put at least 4 years into the game and felt it was time for a change.

2. Life issues (this reason alone has dozens of reasons)

3. Just taking a break

4. Quit games in general

5. Had a bad experience with other players (sensitivity issues)

6. Computer issues

7........should I really have to list every known reason someone may leave a Video Game?