Guardian Tank Talent Builds

[Loiathal]

Welcome!

 

There've been quite a few threads since 1.2 about talent builds-- notably enough, the sticky at the top still claims that Defense tree is the optimal build choice for Guardian Tanks. While Defense DOES offer a bit more defensive capabilities than Vigilance(hence the name), the DPS loss is pretty large and should not be understated. I've done a bit of number crunching this evening, let's take a look. NOTE: This is a build discussion for tanks-- dps guardians are going to wanna play things a big differently.

 

 

Here are the two builds, we'll examine them in just a second. If you want the cliff notes, skip on down.

Defense Spec: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#500hRGkudMdfzZcGM.1

Vigilance Spec: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#500hMGzuZcGr0rhdzR.1

 

 

Defensively:

 

Defense:

Guard Stance: 6% melee/ranged defenses while in Soresu Form.

Blade Barricade: Riposte increases melee/ranged defenses by 6% for 6 seconds.

Shield Specialization: 4% shield chance

Inner Peace: 4% increased Elemental/Internal damage reduction. Also 5 second increase in the duration of Enure.

Blade Barrier: Blade Storm grants a shield which absorbs damage. Functionally equivalent to a 700 heal every 9 seconds. Even though the shield itself is around 1200(scaling with healing), that's before armor/shield is taken into account, so it real damage mitigation it's around 700. For more information about Blade Barrier and why I don't think it's that important, look here (read the post by angrydurf, not the OP): http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=329510

Warding Call: Must have for all guardian tanks.

 

Vigilance:

Guard Stance: 6% melee/ranged defenses while in Soresu Form.

Blade Barricade: Riposte increases melee/ranged defenses by 6% for 6 seconds.

Warding Call: Must have for all guardian tanks.

Commanding Awe: 4% damage reduction from all sources. Increases while using Focused Defense, but that's a skill for DPS guardians, so we're not concerned with that.

Unremitting: Very nice. 20% damage reduction and immunity to CC for 4 seconds? If you're fighting a ranged/immobile boss, you can Guardian Leap to a healer, then Force Leap right back to gain this buff plus extra focus.

 

So, what do we lose by switching to Vigilance tree? Not much-- Guard Stance, Blade Barricade, and Warding Call are all the same. We lose the damage reduction from Inner Peace and the shield chance, but that's made up for (actually, more than made up for) by the 4% damage reduction from Commanding Awe. Only thing we really lose is the shield from Blade Barrier and the extra 5 seconds on Enure. Of the two, the extra duration on Enure isn't very important either, although I suppose it might make a difference. Usually I'm only popping Enure when my healer is CC'ed or otherwise occupied, and if they aren't back to healing me in 10 seconds, I'm going to die, extra health from Enure or not. You may disagree. The 700 shield isn't something I'm concerned too much with, although it's certainly nice.

 

 

Now, the question everyone's waiting for: how much offense do we get?

 

 

OFFENSE:

 

Defense:

Stasis Mastery: Force Stasis doesn't have to channel-- this is nice some extra damage/focus during a fight.

Courage/Cyclonic Sweeps: More focus generation. Always a plus.

Hilt Strike: Damage is ok, extra threat is hard to complain about.

Guardian Slash: Very nice damage, extra threat is nice, those armor stacks don't mean too much though-- with just Sundering Strike you'll have a target at 5 stacks in 2 rotations anyways.

 

Vigilance:

Gather Strength: Eh, it's ok. Mostly here because we need more points in the bottom three tiers.

Effluence: Makes it easy to keep that Dust Storm debuff up, plus the Vigilance tank build is really focus starved, so you don't want to have to spend any focus you don't have to.

Overhead Slash/Vigilance/Force Rush: Essential for the build.

Zen Strike: You could replace this with Burning Purpose, but I kinda like the chance for extra focus.

 

 

All well and good, but the numbers speak loudest. I did two tests with each build, once with the Operations level training dummy, and once with Zyyskel, the first elite mob in the Belsavis Heroic Daily, A Lesson Is Learned.

Basically, the second test was required since it's incredibly difficult to get dps numbers off the training dummy for us tanks. Since we get focus from getting hit, and the training dummy doesn't hit you at all, the numbers I got from it are slightly questionable.

Training Dummy:

Defense Spec: 494 DPS

Vigilance Spec: 570 DPS

Percent Difference: 15.34%

 

Zyyskel:

Defense Spec: 554 DPS

Vigilance Spec: 694 DPS

Percent Difference: 20.1%

 

IMPORTANT NOTE FOR THESE NUMBERS:

All my experiments were done on Zyyskel (and the dummy) before he reached 30% health. That is, I never used Dispatch on him. Because Vigilance gives Dispatch 60% additional crit chance as well, the difference between the two talent builds will increase as soon as Dispatch becomes available.

 

 

So, why the discrepancy in the two experiments? I suspect it's due to the fact that the Vigilance build is much, much more focus starved due to the need to use both Overhead Slash and Blade Storm back to back to get optimal damage (on a 9 second CD, no less), rather than a single Guardian Slash. Against the dummy, the lack of being hit back means 1 less focus every 6 seconds, which means extra rotations of Sundering Strike -> Strike -> Strike -> Sundering Strike, which sucks for your DPS.

 

 

Cliff Notes:

In short, when you take the Vigilance tree build I'm suggesting here, you give up the small shield from Blade Barrier and additional duration on Enure, but gain Unremitting, for a small net loss of defenses. However, you gain somewhere around 17% DPS, probably more when Dispatch is factored in. I cannot see a reason to prioritize the Defense tree unless you know your healer is going to be unreliable, given the importance of beating the enrage times.

 

Any questions or comments, post them below. I'd love to hear any input.

[DodsonD]

bravo sir!

+1 internets for you!

 

This confirmed some things I was sure of, and disproved what felt I like about blade barrier (drat!)

but leaves me talents to focus more on essentials

 

Thanks

[ChaeTakbae]

Thank you... this pretty much confirms my suspicions.

 

Hybrid is the way to go...

 

 

I still have doubts about how hybrids will perform against Operation bosses. For those the full Vigilance may be necessary. Any info on that?

[Loiathal]

Thank you... this pretty much confirms my suspicions.

 

Hybrid is the way to go...

 

 

I still have doubts about how hybrids will perform against Operation bosses. For those the full Vigilance may be necessary. Any info on that?

 

 

Do you mean, "will my dps be high enough against an Operation boss as a hybrid tank"? Or "Will I be tanky enough against an Operation boss as a hybrid tank"?

 

If you mean the first, then the hybrid build seems to me like the highest dps you'll be pulling out of a tank, given that all your gear is oriented towards staying alive. If you mean the second, then all the evidence points towards yes, since you only give up Blade Barrier's small shield, but gain use of Unremitting, which is very strong in certain circumstances.

 

If you're asking if hybrid is high enough DPS for a guardian DPS build, then I can't answer that-- I play tank primarily, and only DPS when necessary. This talent build DOES mean that I can throw on my DPS gear and do enough damage to not drag my op down, at least. I'm pretty sure that a full DPS build would want to move some of those points in the Defense tree (grabbing Shien form, at minimum).

Edited April 30, 2012 by Loiathal

[Aikon]

Since I PvP, I go with this: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#500RRuduzrdbZfbR0MZM.1

 

I can still tank in PvE pretty effectively, yet also be fairly effective in PvP.

 

 

Edit: Re-did the Defense tree to what I actually use.

Edited April 30, 2012 by Aikon

[SteelBattle]

Defense:

Stasis Mastery: Force Stasis doesn't have to channel-- this is nice some extra damage/focus during a fight.

Courage/Cyclonic Sweeps: More focus generation. Always a plus.

Hilt Strike: Damage is ok, extra threat is hard to complain about.

Guardian Slash: Very nice damage, extra threat is nice, those armor stacks don't mean too much though-- with just Sundering Strike you'll have a target at 5 stacks in 2 rotations anyways.

 

Just a couple of clarifications on your post. Cyclonic Sweeps on the defense spec is every 3 secs you generate 1 focus versus 6 secs, and every time you use Cyclone Slash or Slash it takes 3 secs off the cooldown of our 1 min long cooldown combat focus that generates 6 focus.

 

With Courage and proper timing, you make Force Sweep or Blade Storm focus free or greatly reduced focus cost as it can stack up to 3 focus reduction on a successful defense/shield/resist.

 

With Guardian Slash, you can completely debuff the mob with 5 stacks within max of 3 secs(open with sunder strike that applies 2 stacks, one 1.5 sec global cooldown, then guardian slash with 3 stacks). Versus the hybrid that will take a min of 11.5 secs(opening sunderstrike with 2 stacks with 5 sec cooldown, 2nd sunderstrike with 5 sec cooldown, then final sunder strike with cooldown to give 5 stacks of debuff). Defense side is 9 secs roughly of more damage to mob intially. Now if Sundering throw was specced on hybrid you could bridge the gap some but that is not in your spec posted.

 

Hilt Strike gives a 4 sec stun with a long 1 min cooldown and force stasis channel free is equivalent of a 3 sec stun(4 secs in pvp war leader gear) allowing to cast other things during the duration. If the point in profound resolution was tossed into solidified force to max it out you drop hilt strike to 1 focus cost and more importantly freezing force is focus free(allows you to use opportune strike on week mobs and slows mobs near you in case spike dpsers pull on aoes).

 

I am more of a fan with 2 points in momentum for force free blade storm on jump on either spec versus 3 in dust storm but that is preference for my playing style. On the defense and vigilance specs i would have tossed 2 points into focus tree swelling winds for the quicker cooldown on force sweep and more damage on it plus cyclone slash to help shore up a little our aoe agro. To do that i would take 2 points out of accuracy on defense spec, on vigilance link posted not sure what you could do to get swelling winds without giving up useful items.

[Loiathal]

With Guardian Slash, you can completely debuff the mob with 5 stacks within max of 3 secs(open with sunder strike that applies 2 stacks, one 1.5 sec global cooldown, then guardian slash with 3 stacks). Versus the hybrid that will take a min of 11.5 secs(opening sunderstrike with 2 stacks with 5 sec cooldown, 2nd sunderstrike with 5 sec cooldown, then final sunder strike with cooldown to give 5 stacks of debuff). Defense side is 9 secs roughly of more damage to mob intially. Now if Sundering throw was specced on hybrid you could bridge the gap some but that is not in your spec posted.

 

The difference in the time to max Sundering Strike stacks is significant, but in long boss battles it's very minimal. Inspiration and other offensive CD's won't be used in those first few seconds also, and that increases the difference in DPS between the two builds even farther.

 

I was using Hilt Strike in my Defense build damage calculations-- it's stun is insignificant in Operations, although the extra threat is nice. I also used Force Stasis every time it was up-- even with these, the DPS was still much lower; 13% at worst.

 

I've been considering Swelling Winds on the Vigilance build(still over Sundering Throw), and thinking it can come out of Zen Strike. The Vigilance build is very focus starved, but Zen Strike doesn't give much or consistent focus. Also it's impossible to get Cyclonic Slash along with Overhead Slash/Vigilance, which is where the big DPS increase comes from.

 

Lastly, Dust Storm is incredibly important, not to mention required in order to reach Warding Call on the Defense tree.

Edited April 30, 2012 by Loiathal

[SteelBattle]

The spec i go with is a 31/7/3 build that works great for me on pve and pvp, the solution for you on dust storm versus momentum is take 1 point from profound resolute and solidified force and toss in momentum. freezing force has alot more value in pvp encounters where it is beneficial to use a resolve free tactic on players. In Pve it can be useful on groups of mobs in flashpoints and operations but the normal 2 focus costs is not bad. I really think it hurts you on initial payload to not have momentum at least to make blade storm focus free on leaping in(after all how often do you need leap in to start a fight?). I am not saying dust storm is useless, just that to ignore momentum is a mistake imo.

 

Also dont forget the added feature on guardian strike is once 5 stacks of armor debuff are maintained on a mob, every time guardian strike hits it does a large bonus damage to it too.

[ChaeTakbae]

The spec i go with is a 31/7/3 build that works great for me on pve and pvp, the solution for you on dust storm versus momentum is take 1 point from profound resolute and solidified force and toss in momentum. freezing force has alot more value in pvp encounters where it is beneficial to use a resolve free tactic on players. In Pve it can be useful on groups of mobs in flashpoints and operations but the normal 2 focus costs is not bad. I really think it hurts you on initial payload to not have momentum at least to make blade storm focus free on leaping in(after all how often do you need leap in to start a fight?). I am not saying dust storm is useless, just that to ignore momentum is a mistake imo.

 

Also dont forget the added feature on guardian strike is once 5 stacks of armor debuff are maintained on a mob, every time guardian strike hits it does a large bonus damage to it too.

 

Could you please post said spec?

[WildOnOne]

Long time player - very few post I think on these forums --- forums are such a cesspool of negativity I avoid them like the plague.

 

But… I have been playing with my guardian for a while now – and actually spent most of my time clawing up the Defense Tree, as horrid (from a leveling stand point) as it was pre-1.2 and wanted to throw my 2 cents in, as I too have settled on a 31/7/3 Defense spec that works well for me in PvE and even in PvP depending on the situation.

 

Here is my spec, been using it for a while at level 50 and I like it:

 

Click here for spec

 

… and I’ll bet it probably matches (with a few adjustments in Def here and there) others using 31/7/3 as the key for us is to get those 2 points in Strength in Vigilance (at level 50, that’s around 60 or more free points in str at level 50 when you have almost 1000 already (this 6% gain for 2 points is factored in after everything else, so it is actually even bigger increases in some cases). Considering I saw a post of some guy who was threatening to quit because he could not get the +10 datacron, 60+ points in our primary stat is a winner, to me at least.

 

Of course we want Guardian Slash, so the 31 in Def is a given, the other 3 points could have been used in Accuracy or somewhere else in the Defense tree, like Lunge, Profound Resolution or even Command, but that major upgrade to Master Strike (non-interruptible now) is just tooooo tempting to leave out and really help that DPS, so 2 points into Master Focus for sure and that last point in Swelling Winds for that small 1.5 sec cooldown help and extra 10% damage – for 1 point, it’s probably better than 1% accuracy or something.

 

Also, Improved Sundering Strike is important, because Guardian Slash will add 3 sunder and with the 2 already from ISS, you get the big hit damage too. And as for Lunge, I don’t need it, I do use riposte, but by the time I actually get to it in my rotation, I have more than enough focus, with the free focus form jumping in, free blade storm, getting hit in Soresu form (as well as the abilities that allow me to gain focus at crazy rates and even Combat focus helps move this along).

 

Finally, I want to throw my 2 cents in for Solidifying Force. I love this skill and one of my key jobs, especially in PvP is to annoy, confuse and generally get in the way of what my enemy is trying to do --- and if this means slowing their arses down enough for help to arrive, then I have won the fight even if I could not win the battle alone. Free snares for everyone!!!

 

 

 

Angelyn Krys

 

50 Guardian Knight

Ven Zallow Server

[SteelBattle]

Could you please post said spec?

 

This is my current spec post 1.2, i am still doing some testing with the combat log but i have found that has done well for me in operations storymode thru nightmare in EV and KP, right now we are trudging thru Storymode EC as a 16 man operation. For PVP this spec has meant on the average 12-16 medals with a decent 8 man group(at least a healer or 2 instead of 5 vanguards). Maybe it is wrong of me to smile everytime i envision a enemy player in pvp yelling about constant 50% snare, but it is a bonus for me in pvp and has saved alot of huttball matches with force push tossed in.

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#500RrGzudMdfzZcMbZzM.1

 

The main reason i specced with just 1 point in duststorm is in operations we have 2 other dpsing guardians that already have dust storm specced, i rather had the points in momentum and with roughly 23% defense(before reposte adds 6%), 42% shield chance and 50% absorb, i really did not see a difference with dust storm maxxed out on incoming damage in operations and in flashpoints it seemed the same either way(not had much experience in lost island yet). Any info i posted is just to give a baseline of where i am at in playing the guardian and hope it helps the thread...;-)

[darkbillie]

wow...thank you so much for the info

 

+1 !

 

also its nice to see some PvE stuff on here...its always PVP this and PVP that =P

Edited May 1, 2012 by darkbillie

[sabbra_cadabra]

Since my primary focus as Guardian would be PVE tanking, I'm less interested in PVE/PVP hybrid specs and more interested in straight PVE builds.

 

Without doing any testing, I'm inclined to think that speccing completely into Defense and using the spare points in the other 2 trees is a better option. (Though it would be nice to see some sort of spreadsheet outlining the benefits of each as a straight PVE tank) While a DPS increase as a vigilance specced guardian is nice, tank builds aren't designed to generate any substantial amount of DPS and the DPS is generally inefficient no matter what gear you're wearing. They're designed as a means to generate and hold threat on groups or single targets and really nothing more.

[Loiathal]

Without doing any testing, I'm inclined to think that speccing completely into Defense and using the spare points in the other 2 trees is a better option. (Though it would be nice to see some sort of spreadsheet outlining the benefits of each as a straight PVE tank) While a DPS increase as a vigilance specced guardian is nice, tank builds aren't designed to generate any substantial amount of DPS and the DPS is generally inefficient no matter what gear you're wearing.

 

That's what I've attempted to do, albeit without the spreadsheet. What I've presented is a purely PvE build for Guardian Tanks-- while it's somewhat close to a PvP build that some people like using (and I find that I don't need to chance specs for pug'ed warzones), it's intended purpose is not PvP, it's PvE.

 

The 31/7/3 builds people have posted here are slight variations on the 31/10/0 Defense build I posted-- I would say they're close enough to do DPS/tankiness comparisons. And as my numbers show, you give up a VERY small amount of tankiness for a substantial DPS boost-- between 13% and 20%.

 

Overall I think you'll find that extra 15% DPS more important for enrage timers/Bombardiers in Denova than you'll find that tiny amount of tankiness. As I've shown, the 15/26/0 Vigilance build(or ones similar to it) is much higher DPS than the Defense build. I hope no one out there defending the Defense build (see what I did there? ) thinks that DPS number I posted doesn't include the extra damage from 5 stack Guardian Slash, or all the extra focus you have with that build.

[sabbra_cadabra]

That's what I've attempted to do, albeit without the spreadsheet. What I've presented is a purely PvE build for Guardian Tanks-- while it's somewhat close to a PvP build that some people like using (and I find that I don't need to chance specs for pug'ed warzones), it's intended purpose is not PvP, it's PvE.

 

The 31/7/3 builds people have posted here are slight variations on the 31/10/0 Defense build I posted-- I would say they're close enough to do DPS/tankiness comparisons. And as my numbers show, you give up a VERY small amount of tankiness for a substantial DPS boost-- between 13% and 20%.

 

Overall I think you'll find that extra 15% DPS more important for enrage timers/Bombardiers in Denova than you'll find that tiny amount of tankiness. As I've shown, the 15/26/0 Vigilance build(or ones similar to it) is much higher DPS than the Defense build. I hope no one out there defending the Defense build (see what I did there? ) thinks that DPS number I posted doesn't include the extra damage from 5 stack Guardian Slash, or all the extra focus you have with that build.

 

 

 

I'm about 18 levels away from being able to accurately test both specs (only started playing this game in early april), but in the meantime I'm going to be researching some other websites out there and see if there are any junkies that have really crunched the numbers, especially in endgame. Definitely going to be trying both specs out and see which works better. IIt would be nice if SWOTR had a website like WoW has elitist jerks dedicated to number crunching.

[jsabotin]

A strange/interesting note about Blade Barrier. I noticed while tanking various Op and FP bosses that if you time using blade storm/blade barrier right when the boss is jumping for a pounce, it seems to negate ALL the damage and also the knockback effect. I don't know if this is intended or not.

 

Case in point, I was off-tanking Gharj (so hitting him from behind) and I started initiating blade barrier every time he went to pounce. Ordinarily that does an annoying knockback and significant damage (enough that usually folks run back when he jumps to avoid unnecessary damage.) I noticed that when blade barrier had procced, I absorbed both the damage and the knockback. When I did not have blade barrier up, I was damaged for the usual amount (3000-5000 ish?) and bounced back. Next time I did Gharj I was main tank, and so was facing his front. I again tried dealing with his pounce with and without blade barrier and the results were the same (with the damage anyway... I don't think the front facing tank gets knocked back?).

 

Anyway, it's worth noting that sometimes blade barrier DOES do more than just a 700 point absorb on special attacks.

[darkbillie]

well so far the vigilance build is working ineed better then the defense tree, im gonna test it next week in some HM raids and see what it does

[LaChe]

I try defensive and hydrid talents and my conclusion is very simple:

 

Defensive - You start doing more agro (i think that its the only benefit)

Hybrid - Hold more damage and you can hold the agro too but at start of combat its more difficult (with taunts no problem).

 

So, in my opinion I prefer the hydrid spec.

[SentinelBorg]

I used this spec http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#500hMGzuoMZcGrMMhzzM.1 for tanking Denova HMs today. Threat is terrible, but I could manage it. On the other hand, you can't get any more defense and timers as a Guardian.

[TheLakers]

I used this spec http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#500hMGzuoMZcGrMMhzzM.1 for tanking Denova HMs today. Threat is terrible, but I could manage it. On the other hand, you can't get any more defense and timers as a Guardian.

 

I honestly feel sorry for your raid.

 

If you're using a hybrid in HM denova to tank you're doing it wrong. The longer duration on enure is a godsend and will allow a Guardian to avoid one shots, not to mention the 4% internal/elemental reduction. The threat from Guardian Slash/Hilt Strike is pretty much a requirement.. especially with Gunslingers and Sents becoming incrementally geared. They will pull aggro even with Guard no problem and threat is pretty much the most important factor in some of those fights.

 

Hybrid is still decent for PvP or a trash EV/KP/story EC run but please don't expect to be a serious operation tank running a hybrid spec.

Edited May 7, 2012 by TheLakers

[LaChe]

I used this spec http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#500hMGzuoMZcGrMMhzzM.1 for tanking Denova HMs today. Threat is terrible, but I could manage it. On the other hand, you can't get any more defense and timers as a Guardian.

 

+1

I'm tanking Denova HM with hybrid talents and i hold more damage than the other tank full defensive.

[darkbillie]

now since we are talking about best build and all....what would be the best rotation?

[Loiathal]

now since we are talking about best build and all....what would be the best rotation?

 

Pretty simple. Sundering Strike every time it's up, in between you use one of 4 move sets:

 

1.) Overhead Slash + Blade Storm (Dispatch if it's up instead)-- use this if you have 7+ focus.

2.) Force Sweep + Strike -- use this when you have less than 7 focus, as Overhead Slash is a waste without following up with Blade Storm/Dispatch

3.) Master Strike -- Whenever it's up and you can't do 1.)

4.) Strike + Strike -- Only if you have to.

 

Also, as for the "hybrid is fine for PvP and KP/EV, but HM Denova requires a Defense build" nonsense, look at the math. Don't be mislead by the name of the tree-- the extra defense is minimal. As for the threat from hilt strike/guardian slash, the dps from Vigilance build more than compensates on threat.

[Drgneb]

having now ran HM's as both spec's I can honetsly say that Def spec is the way to go. But keep in mind, thats for me and how i play and such. Hybrid may still very well be just as good a spec. The "tank" itself needs to be tweaked overall and as we all know that will be awhile.

[Songwhistle]

what are the current decent tank builds for guardians for PVE?