Dark side Luke in RotJ movie?

[Silvrus]

I'm not searching through all my posts to find it. Regardless if you said it or not it's irrelevant. Force Powers aren't the same as guns. There's two sides of the force. Drawing the dark side and using it for good is still drawing on the dark side. In Star Wars "The ends justify the means." is a lie. Anytime this comes up it always ends badly. Saving your friends and putting everyone else at risk is selfish and dangerous. You're once again missing the bigger picture. You also can't say for sure all would have failed had Luke not shown up. Remember, they were already in the process of escaping when Luke came.

 

We also don't know how the plan to rescue Han would have went differently had Luke not been in the picture. I'm sorry you have trouble reading into the foreshadowing throughout the trilogy that hints that Luke was going to struggle with the dark side. I'm sorry you didn't understand the message in the cave or the similarities between Luke and his father. I'm sorry you missed the few times where they actually compare Luke to his father. Note this isn't to bash you. I, myself, am a writer and it's very obvious to me all the incidents where they foreshadowed how the end was going to come up.

 

Everything down from the comparisons between Luke and his father. The fact that he lost his hand after not listening to his teacher and rushing into a situation without thinking. (Which Lucas did the same for Anakin as well. He lost his hand for the same reason.) Everything leads up to that final point. They didn't decide right there and then "Luke has been a perfect model jedi but now he'll struggle." this isn't the case at all. "The powers aren't dark it's how you use it." has never been true in Star Wars. I ask again; bring up a point in the novels/TCW/Wherever to prove that Force Choke isn't a dark power.

 

There's a reason we only see fallen Jedi/Jedi that are falling use this power and why we don't see Jedi throwing Force Lightning around.

 

I agree with pretty much everything you said, except there are a couple of different philosophies regarding the Force. Jedi predominantly believe in the Living Force, which believes in DS/LS both being part of the overall Force of energy that encompassed all living things. Living Force believers focus on the here and now with an eye on the future possibilities and repercussions of their actions. The Unifying Force is believed to be an entity that has neither DS or LS, and doesn't pick sides, treating all beings as equal. Believers of this tended to look towards fulfilling a destiny rather than the unfolding events in front of them.

[Wolfninjajedi]

of course it's the right call because that chain of events leads to the emperor dying, Vader turning back to the light, the empire being destroyed and all the main characters surviving.

 

If luke never went or even didn't go to save Han then the ground assualt on Endor would have failed, Leia would still be a sex slave for Jaba, Lando woudln't have joined the rebelion and help lead the assualt on the Death Star and well the Empire would have had a fully complete Death Star and Luke wouldn't be able to stop them.

 

Best case scenario Luke goes on his own and some how destroys the emperor but what Luke learned is that he needs his friends. It's sort of like how Harry Potter was stronger because of his friendship and Voldormot was actualy weak because he had no friends and was alone.

 

you are assuming an awful lot. such as Yoda is right (turns out he is not). You also need to look at Yoda's motivation. He is afraid that Luke will become like Anakin who he once trained instead of trusting that he is strong on his own.

 

Also ***. Ben says "that boy is our last hope" yoda replys "no there is another" which he is refering of course to Leia

 

BUT!!!!!!! Yoda knows that Leia is on the cloud city and might die. So if Luke fails and Leia dies also.......

 

btw did you find out where I said official movie novelizations are not canon?

 

Actually Lando still would have joined the Rebellion, he wanted to because of the Empire taking over Bespin. Plus Lando was the "ace in the hole" the wild card so to speak in the plan to rescue Han. The movie novelzations are also very much canon, they are G-canon.

 

G-canon is George Lucas Canon; the six Episodes and anything directly provided to Lucas Licensing by Lucas. Elements originating with Lucas in the movie novelizations, reference books, and other sources are also G-canon.

Edited April 26, 2012 by Wolfninjajedi

[jarjarloves]

You also can't say for sure all would have failed had Luke not shown up. Remember, they were already in the process of escaping when Luke came..

oh but I can.

 

With out Luke showing up R2D2 would have never joined Leia and Lando. With out R2D2 the Hyperdrive would have never been fixed and Vader would have captured them because they couldn't escape.

 

But lets assume by some miracle they do escape they still would have gone to save Han as Boba Fett would have still took him to Jaba's Palace and then Liea would have still been captured and turned into Jaba's sex slave. Perhaps Lando could have done something to free them but I can't imagine what he would have done.

 

But it's a mute point since Leia and Lando would have never escaped the Empire with out the MF hyperdrive working.

 

The powers aren't dark it's how you use it." has never been true in Star Wars. I ask again; bring up a point in the novels/TCW/Wherever to prove that Force Choke isn't a dark power.

 

 

I refer to my earlier quote from the ROTJ novel, script and movie where we see that Luke doesn't kill the guards.

 

Clearly force choke not being used as a darkside power.

 

Luke raised his hand and pointed at the guards. Before either could draw a weapon, they were both clutching their own throats, choking, gasping. They fell to their knees.

 

Luke lowered his hand and walked on. The guards, suddenly able to breathe again, slumped to the sanddrifted steps. They didn't follow.

[jarjarloves]

Actually Lando still would have joined the Rebellion, he wanted to because of the Empire taking over Bespin. Plus Lando was the "ace in the hole" the wild card so to speak in the plan to rescue Han. The movie novelzations are also very much canon, they are G-canon.

 

G-canon is George Lucas Canon; the six Episodes and anything directly provided to Lucas Licensing by Lucas. Elements originating with Lucas in the movie novelizations, reference books, and other sources are also G-canon.

 

except Lando, Leia, Chewie, and C-3PO would have never escaped because R2D2 wouldn't have been there to fix the hyper drive.

 

As for Lando being the Ace In the Hole yeah it's true we dont' know what his plan would have been but seeing as at that point, Leia, was a sex slave, Chewie and a blind Han Solo where in a cell I can't imaigne what he could have done on his own.

 

As for your last statement i'm not sure if that's directed towards me because I agree with you about that. The other guy is saying that I said they aren't canon. You know me a canon stickler I follow the rules of canon with out hesitation.

[Rhyltran]

oh but I can.

 

With out Luke showing up R2D2 would have never joined Leia and Lando. With out R2D2 the Hyperdrive would have never been fixed and Vader would have captured them because they couldn't escape.

 

But lets assume by some miracle they do escape they still would have gone to save Han as Boba Fett would have still took him to Jaba's Palace and then Liea would have still been captured and turned into Jaba's sex slave. Perhaps Lando could have done something to free them but I can't imagine what he would have done.

 

But it's a mute point since Leia and Lando would have never escaped the Empire with out the MF hyperdrive working.

 

 

 

 

I refer to my earlier quote from the ROTJ novel, script and movie where we see that Luke doesn't kill the guards.

 

Clearly force choke not being used as a darkside power.

 

Just because he doesn't kill them doesn't prove your point. You don't need to kill someone with a dark side power for it not to be a dark side power. It's established as a dark side power. You can shock someone with force lightning without killing them. It doesn't make it "Not darkside." Again, I challenge you once more to come up with proof. Show me a Jedi using force choke that isn't on the path of the dark side. I continue to challenge you to do this. The prequels and CW series has shown that only those who follow the dark side or are on their way there use it.

 

As to the other poster.. The force does have Light/Dark sides. Lucas has stated as much. You can see the conversation with Lucas discussing it with Bill Moyer. There's multiple beliefs on the theory of the force among the Jedi but not all of them are correct. TCW also makes it clear that there is two separate sides when it introduced the twins.

 

Also as to cloud city. It really depends. Vader had no interest in them. Just Luke. If he believed Luke would eventually come he wouldn't kill them. He held them there just to lure him into a trap. We also aren't aware if Leia getting captured was part of Luke's plan. Not that he planned for her to get captured but her idea to pose as a bounty hunter. I haven't read the novel long enough if it clarified as there. Note that Lando did infiltrate them so in time he may have been able to do something. This is a mute point though and "What if's" aren't what's being discussed.

 

The imagery, foreshadowing, and etc are all there. When Star Wars is brought up and analyzed these things are always discussed.

Edited April 26, 2012 by Rhyltran

[jarjarloves]

Just because he doesn't kill them doesn't prove your point. You don't need to kill someone with a dark side power for it not to be a dark side power. It's established as a dark side power. You can shock someone with force lightning without killing them. It doesn't make it "Not darkside." Again, I challenge you once more to come up with proof. Show me a Jedi using force choke that isn't on the path of the dark side. I continue to challenge you to do this. The prequels and CW series has shown that only those who follow the dark side or are on their way there use it.

 

As to the other poster.. The force does have Light/Dark sides. Lucas has stated as much. You can see the conversation with Lucas discussing it with Bill Moyer. There's multiple beliefs on the theory of the force among the Jedi but not all of them are correct. TCW also makes it clear that there is two separate sides when it introduced the twins.

rofl So now NOT killing someone is a darkside choice.

 

Awesome. Nothing to say about the rest of the stuff I wrote?

[Wolfninjajedi]

except Lando, Leia, Chewie, and C-3PO would have never escaped because R2D2 wouldn't have been there to fix the hyper drive.

 

As for Lando being the Ace In the Hole yeah it's true we dont' know what his plan would have been but seeing as at that point, Leia, was a sex slave, Chewie and a blind Han Solo where in a cell I can't imaigne what he could have done on his own.

 

As for your last statement i'm not sure if that's directed towards me because I agree with you about that. The other guy is saying that I said they aren't canon. You know me a canon stickler I follow the rules of canon with out hesitation.

 

Oh...well see I took the last part in a weird way, cause you said

 

btw did you find out where I said official movie novelizations are not canon?

 

So I was thinking, you were saying that they weren't.

[Silvrus]

rofl So now NOT killing someone is a darkside choice.

 

Awesome. Nothing to say about the rest of the stuff I wrote?

 

What he's trying to say is using the Force to make someone suffer is Dark. To use your Harry Potter reference, the 3 illegal curses (Imperius, mind control; Cruciatus, torture; Avada Kedavra, killing) were illegal because they caused suffering. Force Powers were classified as Dark or Light because of that. While in the movies themselves it's not spelled out that way, the use of them was pretty clear cut. Sith used lightning/choke while Jedi used push/etc. Luke is the only Jedi I know of that used choke, something which his father had a keen love of doing.

[Rhyltran]

rofl So now NOT killing someone is a darkside choice.

 

Awesome. Nothing to say about the rest of the stuff I wrote?

 

Apparently you have trouble with the third paragraph each time. Once again I re-direct you to my third paragraph. Using a dark side power = Dark. The end. Good or evil it's dark. He could have knocked them out. Used force persuade or whatever. He chose choke. Choke is dark. If he had used force lightning to stun them. That too would have been dark. So...

 

"Rofl using a dark side power = Dark" hard concept no? You take things too seriously. You've been sarcastic the entire time despite being on the losing end of this debate. So far no one has piped in to agree with you. Yes I have been sarcastic back to you but only because I'm giving it back to you in kind. I have been level headed the entire time. No posting a billion question marks at the end of posts. No witty comments. I do it back to show you how ridiculous it sounds even coming from me.

 

There's no need to get annoyed or frustrated. It's a friendly debate on some internet forums. A debate that in the end doesn't matter.

 

You pride yourself on the fact that you watched the movies quite a bit and read the movie novelizations. I have watched the entire Clone Wars T.V. series. Both versions. I have read almost every single novel. I have followed interviews regarding George Lucas. I have read all the movie novelizations (although, some were many years ago). I do know Star Wars and have proven that many times on these forums. Am I the most knowledgeable? No. Of course not. I can name users on here (many have moved on) more knowledgeable than myself. You mock me for my comment regarding force choke but will not take me up on my challenge.

Edited April 26, 2012 by Rhyltran

[jarjarloves]

What he's trying to say is using the Force to make someone suffer is Dark. To use your Harry Potter reference, the 3 illegal curses (Imperius, mind control; Cruciatus, torture; Avada Kedavra, killing) were illegal because they caused suffering. Force Powers were classified as Dark or Light because of that. While in the movies themselves it's not spelled out that way, the use of them was pretty clear cut. Sith used lightning/choke while Jedi used push/etc. Luke is the only Jedi I know of that used choke, something which his father had a keen love of doing.

 

Ahh yes the Unforgivable curses EXCEPT Auror are allowed to use them.

.

 

Using your anger to feed your power is dark that is why the Emperor wants Luke to Strike him down and give into his hate. If causing pain and suffering was what made someone dark then the Jedi wouldn't be allowed to kill anyone not even out of defense.

 

Anakin/Vader always uses force choke while angry. He chokes Padme and was about to kill her until Obi Wan stopped him because he was angry with her. He force chokes his officers when they do something wrong or make fun of him.

 

Luke uses it to bypass some guards. Remember he doesn't have his light saber with him. It's with R2D2 because he planned to get into Jaba's palace. He force chokes them to show them that they shouldn't mess with him. He doesn't kill them because he is not doing it out of anger thus he is not drawing on the dark side of the force.

 

The entire Jaba Palace rescue is about how he is a Jedi now. He is calm and even tries MULTIPLE times to resolve it with out using any violence. It's not until he is pushed and has no way out that he has to use violence.

[jarjarloves]

Apparently you have trouble with the third paragraph each time. Once again I re-direct you to my third paragraph. Using a dark side power = Dark. The end. Good or evil it's dark. He could have knocked them out. Used force persuade or whatever. He chose choke. Choke is dark. If he had used force lightning to stun them. That too would have been dark. So...

 

"Rofl using a dark side power = Dark" hard concept no? You take things too seriously. You've been sarcastic the entire time despite being on the losing end of this debate. So far no one has piped in to agree with you. Yes I have been sarcastic back to you but only because I'm giving it back to you in kind. I have been level headed the entire time. No posting a billion question marks at the end of posts. No witty comments. I do it back to show you how ridiculous it sounds even coming from me.

 

There's no need to get annoyed or frustrated. It's a friendly debate on some internet forums. A debate that in the end doesn't matter.

 

You pride yourself on the fact that you watched the movies quite a bit and read the movie novelizations. I have watched the entire Clone Wars T.V. series. Both versions. I have read almost every single novel. I have followed interviews regarding George Lucas. I have read all the movie novelizations (although, some were many years ago). I do know Star Wars and have proven that many times on these forums. Am I the most knowledgeable? No. Of course not. I can name users on here (many have moved on) more knowledgeable than myself. You mock me for my comment regarding force choke but will not take me up on my challenge.

 

Show me a quote from George Lucas saying "Force choike is evil" or "using force choke is evil" something along those lines. You said they exist so where is it?

[jarjarloves]

Oh...well see I took the last part in a weird way, cause you said

 

 

 

So I was thinking, you were saying that they weren't.

my point was what have ever seen Lando do that would convicne you that he could rescue them? He is only able to get them out of the cloud city because he has the entire cloud city security team on his side In the actual rescue he ends up being the one who needs to be rescued..

 

Luke was able to because he was a Jedi. Lando. however well we don't even know his plan IF he even had a plan. His entire purpose might have been to just get in there and then help Luke when he comes to rescue them.

 

 

As for the canon the other guy said that I said they where not canon and that he had proof or something. So I was asking if he found that quote of me saying they aren't canon.

[Rhyltran]

Show me a quote from George Lucas saying "Force choike is evil" or "using force choke is evil" something along those lines. You said they exist so where is it?

 

I never said such a thing. Quote the part where I said that? I claimed that Lucas states there is a Light Side and a Dark Side of the force. You're dodging again. I already gave you the challenge. Stop dodging it. Show me another Jedi who uses force choke. Show me one where the Jedi are not concerned about the person's use of the force.

[Silvrus]

Ahh yes the Unforgivable curses EXCEPT Auror are allowed to use them.

.

 

Using your anger to feed your power is dark that is why the Emperor wants Luke to Strike him down and give into his hate. If causing pain and suffering was what made someone dark then the Jedi wouldn't be allowed to kill anyone not even out of defense.

 

Anakin/Vader always uses force choke while angry. He chokes Padme and was about to kill her until Obi Wan stopped him because he was angry with her. He force chokes his officers when they do something wrong or make fun of him.

 

Luke uses it to bypass some guards. Remember he doesn't have his light saber with him. It's with R2D2 because he planned to get into Jaba's palace. He force chokes them to show them that they shouldn't mess with him. He doesn't kill them because he is not doing it out of anger thus he is not drawing on the dark side of the force.

 

The entire Jaba Palace rescue is about how he is a Jedi now. He is calm and even tries MULTIPLE times to resolve it with out using any violence. It's not until he is pushed and has no way out that he has to use violence.

 

Please just answer my question straight forwardly: Are you saying falling to the Dark Side is like flipping a switch, and Luke was never in danger of falling until the final moments on the Death Star? The final moments both the Emperor and Vader seize on his attachments to his loved ones which he had been thoughtless rushing head on to rescue the entire 2 movies? That those attachments and his thoughtless actions lent NOTHING to his susceptibility to Dark Side in the finale?

[Rhyltran]

Please just answer my question straight forwardly: Are you saying falling to the Dark Side is like flipping a switch, and Luke was never in danger of falling until the final moments on the Death Star? The final moments both the Emperor and Vader seize on his attachments to his loved ones which he had been thoughtless rushing head on to rescue the entire 2 movies? That those attachments and his thoughtless actions lent NOTHING to his susceptibility to Dark Side in the finale?

 

You layed that question out better than I did. I applaud that.

[jarjarloves]

I never said such a thing. Quote the part where I said that? I claimed that Lucas states there is a Light Side and a Dark Side of the force. You're dodging again. I already gave you the challenge. Stop dodging it. Show me another Jedi who uses force choke. Show me one where the Jedi are not concerned about the person's use of the force.

you are right i misspoke about you saying that HOWEVER. I never said there wasn't a light and dark side of the force. I said that force choke is not a darkside abilty. Both light and dark can use it's all in HOW you use it. If you use your rage or the dark side of the force to fuel it then yes you are dark. If not then you are light.

 

I never once argued that there wasn't a light and dark side of the force I just said the abilites are not exclusive to one or the other side.

 

Using the force out of anger or fear is dark. Luke is NOT using force choke out of anger or fear.

[jarjarloves]

Please just answer my question straight forwardly: Are you saying falling to the Dark Side is like flipping a switch, and Luke was never in danger of falling until the final moments on the Death Star? The final moments both the Emperor and Vader seize on his attachments to his loved ones which he had been thoughtless rushing head on to rescue the entire 2 movies? That those attachments and his thoughtless actions lent NOTHING to his susceptibility to Dark Side in the finale?

I never said it was like flipping a switch however CHOOSING TO DIE INSTEAD OF JOINING THE DARK SIDE DOES NOT MAKE YOU GO DOWN THE DARK SIDE.

[Rhyltran]

you are right i misspoke about you saying that HOWEVER. I never said there wasn't a light and dark side of the force. I said that force choke is not a darkside abilty. Both light and dark can use it's all in HOW you use it. If you use your rage or the dark side of the force to fuel it then yes you are dark. If not then you are light.

 

I never once argued that there wasn't a light and dark side of the force I just said the abilites are not exclusive to one or the other side.

 

Using the force out of anger or fear is dark. Luke is NOT using force choke out of anger or fear.

 

Yes they are exclusive to one or the other. We see this in the various books and the movies. From TOR republicera, the bane novels, TCW, and more. Even Sidious alludes to the fact that there are powers available only to the dark side. The ROTS novel even brings up Sidious knowledge of "Dark side techniques." there ARE techniques that are Dark Side. There ARE techniques that are Light. This is star wars.

 

As for cloud city not once did Silver state that him "Choosing to die" was Dark Sided. That would be foolish. What Silver is saying is that his reasoning to go to cloud city was selfish and dangerous. Just because he rejected it there doesn't mean he's not susceptible to falling. If someone is leaning 30% to the dark side it doesn't mean they are incapable of turning it down. Yes he turned down Vader's offer but he was still at risk even after.

Edited April 26, 2012 by Rhyltran

[jarjarloves]

Yes they are exclusive to one or the other. We see this in the various books and the movies. From TOR republicera, the bane novels, TCW, and more. Even Sidious alludes to the fact that there are powers available only to the dark side. The ROTS novel even brings up Sidious knowledge of "Dark side techniques." there ARE techniques that are Dark Side. There ARE techniques that are Light. This is star wars.

 

As for cloud city not once did Silver state that him "Choosing to die" was Dark Sided. That would be foolish. What Silver is saying is that his reasoning to go to cloud city was selfish and dangerous. Just because he rejected it there doesn't mean he's not susceptible to falling. If someone is leaning 30% to the dark side it doesn't mean they are incapable of turning it down. Yes he turned down Vader's offer but he was still at risk even after.

 

 

now I will admit I misspoke again that there are some abilities that are strictly dark side such as the life sucking one from KOTOR But those that are exclusively light or dark require you to draw upon entirely one side of the force. the life steal requires you to suck the life out of someone you can't do that by drawing on the light side and say a powerful force heal would require you to give up part of your life selflessly. Something that the darkside doesn't do.

 

. However I was mainly speaking about what this thread is actaully about which is Luke Skywalkers actions during Jaba's Palace such as

 

Force Choke

Force persuade

 

However back to Sideous he even says that in the movie he states there are some abilities that you can't learn from a Jedi such as the power to keep people from dying.

 

Now we could look into that as perhaps Sideous was lying as he was manipulating Anakin into coming over the the dark side. We also know that there are force healing abliites which could also be used to "keep people from dying"

 

Also after all it was Anakins fall that caused Padme to die and there is no force ability that could have saved her in that case. So Sideious was probably lying.

 

But back to the original point the book, script, and the movie all show that Luke is

 

1. Wearing the Robes of a Jedi

 

2. Does not Kill the guards with Force Choke

 

3. Avoids killing

 

4. Gives Jaba several ways out

 

Now which one of those look like the path to the dark side and we established that if Luke didn't go to the Cloud City then Leia would still be in the hands of the Empire and Han would still be at Jaba's Palace.

 

So he didn't act selfishly because

 

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/selfish

Edited April 26, 2012 by jarjarloves

[Silvrus]

I never said it was like flipping a switch however CHOOSING TO DIE INSTEAD OF JOINING THE DARK SIDE DOES NOT MAKE YOU GO DOWN THE DARK SIDE.

 

I'm afraid either I am not expressing myself clearly enough, or you are just not understanding what I am saying. The outcome of his actions did indeed result in success and victory, that's not in debate. What we are discussing, or attempting to anyway, is the intent and reasoning BEHIND his actions. Why does he do what he does, and what does it show? I did not say choosing to die pushed him down the Dark Side. His lack of control over himself and his emotions is what I'm saying is pushing him that way. It is clearly demonstrated through the movies, starting in TESB.

[Rhyltran]

 

But back to the original point the book, script, and the movie all show that Luke is

 

1. Wearing the Robes of a Jedi

 

2. Does not Kill the guards with Force Choke

 

3. Avoids killing

 

4. Gives Jaba several ways out

 

Now which one of those look like the path to the dark side and we established that if Luke didn't go to the Cloud City then Leia would still be in the hands of the Empire and Han would still be at Jaba's Palace.

 

So he didn't act selfishly because

 

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/selfish

 

1. He may have been wearing the robes of a Jedi, however, imagery is important. Not to mention his black clothing underneath are not robes. The robes came off after he was captured. Imagery is often used in stories/movies to provoke a reaction from the audience and to tell the audience something.

 

2. He doesn't kill them but he still could have used force persuade. I'm pretty sure Gammoreans do not have strong minds. They're as dumb as bricks. Instead he used a dark side ability in which case he could have easily used other means to get them out of the way without killing them. If you deny Force Choke's alignment I re-direct you back to my challenge. I also point out that force choke has been classified as a dark side ability.

 

3. Yes. This isn't up to debate. Well, until his hand is forced that is. I agree.

 

4. That he does.

 

Let's look once again into this. It is selfish. His motivations are selfish. Stop quoting the dictionary definition. Most human beings never are put into a situation where their actions to can influence the fate of their entire country. Let alone the galaxy itself. If Luke had gotten himself and Leia killed the galaxy would be doomed. This is a huge impact and goes beyond his friends. No matter how you look at it. The ROTS novelization straight up calls Sidious Lightning evil.

 

No one is claiming Luke is evil or that he had fallen. We are merely claiming that Luke was on the edge. He was dangerous of being pushed off. This is why confronting Vader was his final test as a Jedi.

[jarjarloves]

1. He may have been wearing the robes of a Jedi, however, imagery is important. Not to mention his black clothing underneath are not robes. The robes came off after he was captured. Imagery is often used in stories/movies to provoke a reaction from the audience and to tell the audience something.

 

2. He doesn't kill them but he still could have used force persuade. I'm pretty sure Gammoreans do not have strong minds. They're as dumb as bricks. Instead he used a dark side ability in which case he could have easily used other means to get them out of the way without killing them. If you deny Force Choke's alignment I re-direct you back to my challenge. I also point out that force choke has been classified as a dark side ability.

 

3. Yes. This isn't up to debate. Well, until his hand is forced that is. I agree.

 

4. That he does.

 

Let's look once again into this. It is selfish. His motivations are selfish. Stop quoting the dictionary definition. Most human beings never are put into a situation where their actions to can influence the fate of their entire country. Let alone the galaxy itself. If Luke had gotten himself and Leia killed the galaxy would be doomed. This is a huge impact and goes beyond his friends. No matter how you look at it. The ROTS novelization straight up calls Sidious Lightning evil.

 

No one is claiming Luke is evil or that he had fallen. We are merely claiming that Luke was on the edge. He was dangerous of being pushed off. This is why confronting Vader was his final test as a Jedi.

 

1. look again The robes are not just the cape with the hood. It's like monk robes

 

http://masterskywalker.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/luke3.jpg

http://masterskywalker.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/51.jpg

http://media.giantbomb.com/uploads/0/423/195042-news_ep3_obi_wan.jpg

 

the only difference is the color

 

Now on the death star he is NOT wearing Jedi Robes

 

If you look it is a different costume.

 

Also imagry can be important in a film however if his clothing was to denote his moral standing then after the death star he would be wearing different clothes.

 

2. You are assuming force persuade would work on a creature that doesn't understand basic. If that were true he could have used it on the Rancor or the guards at the gate of the Rancor to let him out.

 

As for his selfishness I already addressed this a page or so back when you made way too many assumptions. You can back and reread where you went wrong.

[Rhyltran]

1. look again The robes are not just the cape with the hood. It's like monk robes

 

http://masterskywalker.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/luke3.jpg

http://masterskywalker.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/51.jpg

http://media.giantbomb.com/uploads/0/423/195042-news_ep3_obi_wan.jpg

 

the only difference is the color

 

Now on the death star he is NOT wearing Jedi Robes

 

If you look it is a different costume.

 

Also imagry can be important in a film however if his clothing was to denote his moral standing then after the death star he would be wearing different clothes.

 

2. You are assuming force persuade would work on a creature that doesn't understand basic. If that were true he could have used it on the Rancor or the guards at the gate of the Rancor to let him out.

 

As for his selfishness I already addressed this a page or so back when you made way too many assumptions. You can back and reread where you went wrong.

 

No. You have not addressed it. You kept pointing everyone to the dictionary link and not addressing it at all. You stated that saving your friends is not selfish. You continuously ignored us when we stated the entire galaxy at large means more than your friends. You stated he could not have won without the help of his friends and that really depends as well. That one attack may have been doomed to failure but at the same time a Luke with finished training would have been quite a bit more powerful and he'd have that to work with. So we don't even know that for sure.

 

This isn't an assumption. Yes after the death star he wore the same clothing. There was no time to change. The outfit is no doubt a Jedi outfit but once again colors have meaning. The colors are chosen for a reason. It's foreshadowing. Much as the foreshadowing done with Anakin's darker colors compared to most of the Jedi. It's no different here. The foreshadowing is extremely obvious.

 

You even state the only difference is the color. This is very important. There is a reason the color is different. Force persuade wouldn't work on a rancor because they aren't Sentient. A creature doesn't need to understand basic for force persuade to work on them. See TCW series. Even if this was not the case there were other means to take down the guards. He chose to do so by using a Dark Side power. I again, re-direct you to my challenge.

 

As an example of what I mean when I say selfless look at the Batman movie. He had two choices. Rescue the woman he LOVED. Rescue the guy everyone looks up to and admires. He determined saving Harvey would benefit more people. He went with that choice. Giving up the person he loved for the man he thought the city needed. This is selfless in the greater schemes of things.

 

Note in the end he let go of everything. By tossing his lightsaber aside he didn't just go "I won't give in to anger." he was trusting in the force to protect and guide his friends. Note that was originally that made him react out of anger in the first place. There was more to it than not letting his emotions control him. He became a Jedi not because he rejected the dark side. Not because he regained self control. He became a Jedi because he finally understood to let go as Obi Wan had told him so long ago. To let go and put his trust in the force. To let it guide him. By doing this he defeated the Emperor.

Edited April 26, 2012 by Rhyltran

[Revelationjp]

I dislike it when anyone says that what George Lucas says is Canon. He may have invented the initial story, but over the last 40 yrs this has gone so far beyond him that it's simply just not his alone anymore. It belongs to all of us fans. The story has literally hundreds of books, comics, games and other hings that have expanded the universe to the point where Lucas is only trying to aim a snowball he sent rolling down a mountainside.

 

That being said, I've always felt that Luke had a better idea of the true Force because of his lack of a lifetime of training. The old Jedi order really made a mess of things. They were so embroiled in their politics that they failed to see what was right in front of their noses. "Trust your feelings, but abandon everything that's important to you". Mastering your emotions does not equate having no emotions. I always felt like the old Jedi order had over time perverted their own teachings, and that the "balance" that Anakin brought, was really the cleansing of both sith and Jedi, and a renewal to a more... lenient? idea of the Force. In the new Order, Luke allowed loved ones to be around, even Marriages, with no ill effects. The idea that relationships lead to the darkside in and of themselves were a perversion of older Jedi teachings, IMO.

[Wolfninjajedi]

I dislike it when anyone says that what George Lucas says is Canon. He may have invented the initial story, but over the last 40 yrs this has gone so far beyond him that it's simply just not his alone anymore. It belongs to all of us fans. The story has literally hundreds of books, comics, games and other hings that have expanded the universe to the point where Lucas is only trying to aim a snowball he sent rolling down a mountainside.

 

That being said, I've always felt that Luke had a better idea of the true Force because of his lack of a lifetime of training. The old Jedi order really made a mess of things. They were so embroiled in their politics that they failed to see what was right in front of their noses. "Trust your feelings, but abandon everything that's important to you". Mastering your emotions does not equate having no emotions. I always felt like the old Jedi order had over time perverted their own teachings, and that the "balance" that Anakin brought, was really the cleansing of both sith and Jedi, and a renewal to a more... lenient? idea of the Force. In the new Order, Luke allowed loved ones to be around, even Marriages, with no ill effects. The idea that relationships lead to the darkside in and of themselves were a perversion of older Jedi teachings, IMO.

 

So a creator of a franchise, shouldn't have control over what goes on? To the other point, relationships not leading to the darkside huh?....Well I know of two that their relationships did lead them to the darkside.

 

Qui-gon and Anakin, now Qui-Gon didn't fall to the darkside mind you but it was a close call and he pulled himself back. The relationships don't lead to the darkside, per-say but rather what leads to the darkside in relationships is what happens within them. Notice how with Anakin, he seems perfectly fine with Padme, he is going to have a child, everything seems to be going well for him...and then what happens? He starts getting visions, of seeing Padme dying, that is what sent him down his dark path wanting to save her.

 

So its more of the consequences in the relationship, that can happen rather then just the relationship itself that can lead one to the darkside.

Edited April 26, 2012 by Wolfninjajedi