Defense!...wait..wut?

[Dmasterr]

Well they obviously changed their mind then.

 

How about going in game and testing it yourself like I did. You will be surprised.

 

So,... the game developer is wrong, and you are right. OK!

 

How attack table rolls work, and damage type and mitigation works the same way since release. Its not a new thing, if after 5 months you still have no clue about it, let alone let yourself educated or do some research on your own. This thread is going places.

Edited April 24, 2012 by Dmasterr

[ComeAndSee]

So,... the game developer is wrong, and you are right. OK!

 

And developers don't change their minds or add stealth changes to patches? Yeah, your logic is outstanding.

 

How about being a chump, get a tank friend and go out in Ilum or w/e you want -- duel them -- and be magically surprised. LOL, you say research? I already did my research. What do you have to prove instead of copy and pasting?

Edited April 24, 2012 by ComeAndSee

[Kriesha]

And developers don't change their minds or add stealth changes to patches? Yeah, your logic is outstanding.

 

How about being a chump, get a tank friend and go out in Ilum or w/e you want -- duel them -- and be magically surprised. LOL, you say research? I already did my research. What do you have to prove instead of copy and pasting?

 

Make a screenshot of a crit getting shielded. Provide that, and we may start believing. Until then, I'd rather take the devs word over yours.

[ComeAndSee]

Make a screenshot of a crit getting shielded. Provide that, and we may start believing. Until then, I'd rather take the devs word over yours.

 

I'm at work right now but I just emailed myself a reminder when I get home to load up da fraps.

 

I wish we had a real combat log.

[Draqsko]

You know, that is an interesting approach.

 

Until now, we all assumed the true role of the Jugg/Guardian was with the tank, and DPS trees were just an option.

 

Come to think of it, you may be right. Maybe we should stop considering a Jugg/Guardian as a tanking class, but rather a DPS class at heart, with some defense given as an option to be utilized to become a DPS-Tank hybrid, rather than just a DPS. So, under this pretense, we could always choose to understand the shortcomings of the defense/immortal tree as a "Hybrid limitation".

 

But then, being a Star Wars fan at heart, it would pain me to see the famed Soresu form, made so famous through Master Kenobi and his mastery of the form as the "ultimate defensive style", being considered nothing but a makeshift, hybridized form of defense option....

 

Hybrid specs outperform pure defense builds in PVP, plain and simple, because everyone has roughly the same level of hp and armor mitigation is only slightly different. Most other games, the tank class actually has tons more hp, and better armor mitigation against all attacks. This allows them to actually be a tank and soak damage up, and is balanced by the fact that their attacks are relatively low powered.

 

In SWTOR, juggs/guards have basically the same hp pool to draw on, and armor mitigation only plays a small part against the types of damage recieved. Combined with weak damage output and this leads to DPS being able to remove your hp pool faster than you can remove theirs. The best option to help fix this is to give a passive defense tree perk, either tier 5 or tier 6 (out of reach of hybrids), that gives a +4% endurance boost per point invested, maximum of 3 points. Why this was never included aside from the vigilance perk that also gave guardian leap procs to the leaper is beyond me. This would make juggs/guards, as pure defense builds, tanks in both pve and pvp. I would not give a flat out boost to hp per point of endurance since this would unbalance the DPS lines of this AC.

 

Given the current state of the game, I run a 12/27/2 hybrid that performs very well with great survivability, the 2 points are put into swelling winds to have great synergy with effluence and very useful to prevent node caps by sweeping on reduced CD at will without needing focus. The defense tree stops at pacification and warding call. You'll do alot more damage and can actually kill DPS before they can burn through you 1v1. Proper use of cooldowns means you can defend long enough for help to arrive. Try out these combos, enure + focused defense, after that saber ward + wz medpack, after that shield/absorb relic + warding call.

 

Telling from the nature of your whining threads I don't think I can change your mind. I already experimented with this.

 

I was beating on my Tanksin friend and my non-absorbed Ion Pulse crit for 1200 and when it absorbed I was critting for 800. This is also a special that previously did not get absorbed.

 

Survivability wise my shield procs ***much*** more often that it did in the previous patch. Sentinels trigger my shield like a light show now and they get a big surprise when I double crit Stockstrike them twice in a row.

 

Not sure if you are aware of this but, a critical hit is unable to be shielded since they use the same die roll to determine shield/critical hit. One side of that die roll range is critical, the other side is shield, the middle of the range is a normal hit. You can still roll a high damage normal hit that procs shield, but you did not proc a shield with a critical, it's impossible.

 

While shield procs may be up statisically, that's because marauders and sentinels use a high amount of white damage attacks which can proc shields, whereas force and tech power cannot be shielded. Therefore sents/maras will cause your shield to proc like a light show, that's cause all the terribads seem to think that they are 2 or 3 button classes. They are hitting you with their whites instead of yellows. No good player will proc your shield that much because they will sick you with yellow damage attacks knowing your class can use shields.

[Dmasterr]

My tank assassin has 25k hp, my tank jugg has 23k. That is considerably more considering my operative has 18k and sorc 17k and my tanks have way better defensive stats.

 

My tanks are the last standing man on the battlefield, and pretty much immortal with a good team with healers.

 

On a previous note, i am still waiting for the video where he proves a shielded critical hit so he can prove the dev wrong. /lol

Edited April 24, 2012 by Dmasterr

[Draqsko]

My tank assassin has 25k hp, my tank jugg has 23k. That is considerably more considering my operative has 18k and sorc 17k and my tanks have way better defensive stats.

 

My tanks are the last standing man on the battlefield, and pretty much immortal with a good team with healers.

 

On a previous note, i am still waiting for the video where he proves a shielded critical hit so he can prove the dev wrong. /lol

 

Hate to tell you but that is minimal HP difference if you've ever played other tanks in MMOs. Most times tanks have twice or more the HP of other classes, do significantly less damage than them, and have significantly higher damage mitigation. The damage mitigation and increased HP level have a multiplier effect on each other, making tanks harder to kill even 1 v 1. The price is them doing significantly less damage than all other classes.

 

Bioware has taken a different route with building their classes. Because they designed all tank ACs to also have DPS trees, balancing issues cause: the total HP to be lower relative to other classes than other games, armor mitigation of damage to be practically non-existent, however SWTOR tanks do significantly more damage relative to tanks in other games. It's balanced but balanced in a non-tanky way.

 

PS. I can be practically immortal with one good healer, with a team of healers I AM IMMORTAL. That said, if you are the last on the field, you aren't doing your job. You should be chasing the other team's healers off the field of battle, harassing their DPS, taunting down their damage, and guarding vulnerable targets. As a tank, you should be the first to die, so the rest of your team can operate with impunity, while you are alive. Your job as a tank is to get the other team to focus on you, so the squishies at your back can do their job better. If you are the last one alive at a node you are attacking, you have failed your team, because the other team basically views you as a non-threat. They decided to ignore you to kill everyone else first because the rest of your team are more of a threat to their success, than you are.

[MephiX]

 

PS. I can be practically immortal with one good healer, with a team of healers I AM IMMORTAL. That said, if you are the last on the field, you aren't doing your job. You should be chasing the other team's healers off the field of battle, harassing their DPS, taunting down their damage, and guarding vulnerable targets. As a tank, you should be the first to die, so the rest of your team can operate with impunity, while you are alive. Your job as a tank is to get the other team to focus on you, so the squishies at your back can do their job better. If you are the last one alive at a node you are attacking, you have failed your team, because the other team basically views you as a non-threat. They decided to ignore you to kill everyone else first because the rest of your team are more of a threat to their success, than you are.

 

This man knows what the **** is up.

[Canlocu]

Nevermind, posted in SW forums Edited July 12, 2012 by Canlocu

[Echoo]

its cause both shield rating and defense hardly ever proc on anything