Madness need mana !

[Sinaii]

With the recent nerf of the madness tree ( yes they didn't touch the lightning tree ), I ask for something that let us have more force during long fight.

 

Why not, add something usefull at the end of tree that let us regain more mana while doing a consumtion, or reduce the cost of the dot and chain lightning ?

 

This spec is just unplayable after 45 sec, you're just good to execute consumtion every 2 skills.

 

Or you can wait and do nothing...except spaming chain lightning.... super...

 

Give us more force to be able to pown those marauders jumping all over from the sky like cows in the wild.

 

 

Maybe they will listen us with a song

 

 

Another one, right now, Madness still in the B team for pvp or pve beacause we are worthless after 1min of fight ,

 

 

 

- Actualy the best idea was to review the skill "devour" tier 6 on madness tree and add on it : 25% per point up to 50%, the possibility that consumption give 50% more force back

Edited April 30, 2012 by Sinaii

[Daellia]

If you're going out of Force in 45 seconds, you are casting way way too many Static Barriers, Dark Infusions, or Force Storms. The spec is the least sustainable, yes (read: the only spec with a force-negative rotation), but it's very slight. The spec has a force endurance of about 15 minutes of straight DPSing, as long as you aren't casting Shock on cooldown or similar.

 

Also, why is Chain Lightning even in a Madness discussion? Wrath and CL shouldn't really ever be in the same spec post 1.2.

Edited April 23, 2012 by Daellia

[Sinaii]

of course if you're only using force lightning and crushing darknesss with no static barrier and other thingy every time it's up and the situation recquieres it, than... you won't have many problem.

 

but what's the point playing a class with only 1 or 2 skills when you have much more in stock.

 

very fast in pvp you will have to use the cc, and you cannot stay too long to cast force ligntning, being under static barrier is the way to play sorcerer if you don't want to die every time a single spy or marauder or sin spawn on you.

 

the fear cost too much every 9 sec and you have to spam it every 9 sec.

 

those who don't have many problem and can "manage" the force with the 31 madness tree are just players watching the sky when they could kill and control twice if they would start playing their 2 hands.

 

 

My point is that if you want to play serious and dealing and controling massively, you only have 45 sec before you're semi broken without a healer there to heal you while you sacrfice.... what a gameplay..... hithit sacrifice...hithit...sacrifice... it's faster to die... and come back for 45 good seconds again...

 

 

Sorcerer madness have less survability than hybrid or thunder tree, so at last we could deal as hell while we are still alive, but no you cannot after 45sec the engine is off... interesting...

 

For pug it may be fun but when you play with 2/3 healer on each side with teams the fight can last more than 45 sec...

 

Serious it happens at last 2 or 3 time in a game, I have to suicide if I want to play properly.

Edited April 23, 2012 by Sinaii

[Daellia]

So what you're saying is, it's not possible to use all of your utility and play at maximum potency indefinitely? That using that utility involves a cost, namely your ability to keep doing it ad nauseum?

 

Sounds like its working as intended to me.

[Sinaii]

there is a diff between full capacity all over time and not been able o play with efficiency above 1Min.

 

if you play hybrid with only 1 point in effusion you won't have those problems, with 2 it's almost 1/2 full mana over time.

 

atm in the madness tree we have some useless skill as devour ( a tier 6 ) it might be interesting to give this tier 6 a good purpose, why not something with mana.

 

Like more force given by consumtion, so it's still chalenging to manage the mana, with the risk it involve, but at last something like the same amount of mana given back against life, so if you have a heal around you can at last play.

 

because now even with a heal around you lose too much time to drain life for mana, and madness is all about something that play nervous, not waiting or dying to get mana back.

 

I'm not asking a mana god mode as lightning tree have, but at least something !

 

A dev should go play madness with 2 or 3 healer against a team with 2 or 3 healer too, and tell us what he thought about the fun he had for fighting above 1min without dying.

 

hybrid may still do more damage over the bg due to more aoe and have more survability but it's a pain in the *** to wait for the chain lightning procs to get something that looks like some burst against healers.

 

with madness you have just no chance to down the healers even with 2 madness on it if the healer moves and play swell because after 1min it will be over due to mana drain, that's is just .............. well at last on heavy armor healers, sorcerers healer are not a big deal since they go now out of mana fast too haha^^

[Daellia]

Like more force given by consumtion, so it's still chalenging to manage the mana, with the risk it involve, but at last something like the same amount of mana given back against life, so if you have a heal around you can at last play.

 

because now even with a heal around you lose too much time to drain life for mana, and madness is all about something that play nervous, not waiting or dying to get mana back.

 

Actually, I could see this working.

 

Devour

Increases the amount of healing generated by Parasitism and Death Field by 50/100%. In addition, increases the amount of Force you gain from Consumption by 25/50%.

 

This would increase the return to 12% of max, or 72 Force per Consumption. That should be sufficient.

[KraGiEFunctional]

I think Madness Sorcerers do exceptionally well in PvP and PvE. In PvE, it comes out as one of the top dmg producing specs, and even the hybrid without Creeping Terror is heavy Madness.

 

If you're unable to maintain your force with the Madness spec, I think you're not doing it right. Let's assume you are using a Madness spec that's like this http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#201hZbcMZcrbRsdkrfz.1.

 

Force Lightning costs 30 Force, and ticks 4 times. So you should regain 4% of your Force whenever you use it to it's fullest. 4% should regen approximately 24, and your normal regen is 8 per second. The only time you should be running out of force (assuming you know how to play correctly) is if you're shielding yourself all the time, casting force storm multiple times, using Shock on CD while not moving, or you're clipping your Force Lightning way too much.

 

I typically play with a corruption spec, but when I'm DPS, I usually play with Madness. I've done almost every HM FP, and some of the Ops with Madness, and haven't run into a situation where I didn't have any force at the end of an encounter. I didn't have full force, but I definitely didn't end up having to sit around for my force to regen or use Consumption.

[Iamsamsara]

I play full madness spec without points in extra force. I do not run out of force, not in pvp and not on boss fights, and thats with everything on cd non stop it feels like. If you are having force issues then you are not utilizing force lighting to proc the force gain, and ofc you can throw two points into incrteased force regen proccing off of lighting strike.

 

Like most sorcs I was less than impressed with the changes 1.2 brought to our class. I end up healing every now and then when needed for ops, and thoguht the sky was falling with the changes to the consumption proc, but I have had no issues healing NiM boss fights since 1.2, it just requires that we are more force concious and stop heals when they are not needed. The only change that I felt hurt us was the removal of the shortened cast time proc of the big heal, and the changes to wrath to the hybrid spec, which I never played. In pvp heals are broken across the board now, so it is not really possible to pinpoint any one thing that needs fixing that is sorc specific. Madness in pvp is tearing it up right now, on losing teams I can still rack up 15+ medals without really trying. I don't get many of the 300k+ damage matches any more, but then again I never did as playing the objectives doesn't really allow for non stop AoE.

 

TL;DR Force is a non issue and the class is working well. Room for some tweaking, but overall we're a solid utility role that can do solid sustained dps.

[Sinaii]

Seriously to the guys playing pve and not runing out of force, are you just using 2 skills or what.

 

Creeping terror 30 Force X 5 during 60 sec = 150 Force

+ Deathfield 50 Force x4 during 60 sec = 200 Force

 

 

Yet we only used 2 skills and there are still 4/5 more you may have to use during 1 min, and already half the mana is gone.

 

When I will have time tomorrow, I will show you how many it cost to play properly for 1 min and how many you get back force.

 

Those template you linked without 2 pt in haunted dreams to get the instant or talking about not being able to do 300k damage due to lack of the aoe and because you play the objective are just crap.

You won't do 300k damage if there are no healer with or against you, and full madness are not depending on aoe for dps.

But you still can manage a huge dps score and playing objectiv edepending if there are 2 or 3 healer on each teams, but it's not fun to play.

 

I don't know any full madness pvper with lot of time played, above lvl 90pvp, who agree that full madness is just fine in pvp, if you're ccing doting target each time you swtich and skilss is up it's just impossible.

Than of course if you're waiting the enemies spawn on your face every 1min you should not have serious problem, while dying every 1min.

[Daellia]

Seriously to the guys playing pve and not runing out of force, are you just using 2 skills or what.

 

Creeping terror 30 Force X 5 during 60 sec = 150 Force

+ Deathfield 50 Force x4 during 60 sec = 200 Force

 

 

Yet we only used 2 skills and there are still 4/5 more you may have to use during 1 min, and already half the mana is gone.

 

Lets do this analysis, shall we? For the sake of simplicity, we'll assume you have 100% uptime on Affliction and CT, and 100% on-cooldown-time on CD and DF. That gives you 4 casts of DF and CD, 3.333_ casts of CT (it lasts 18 seconds, not 12), and 2.857 casts of Affliction per minute. That's a total Force cost (assuming 3/3 Electric Induction, which only affects Affliction and DF of those four abilities) of:

 

DF = 46 * 4

CD = 40 * 4

Aff = 32 * 2.857

CT = 20 * 3.333

Total = 502.1 Force per minute.

 

Now, that takes a grand total of 21.286 seconds. If we assume that we can fill the remaining 38.714 seconds with Force Lightning at 90% efficiency (ie. no more than 3.87 seconds of wasted dps time per minute), and assume 5% Alacrity (FL = 2.85 second channel), that gives us 12.226 FLs cast per minute. Again assuming 3/3 EI, that gives us a total additional consumption of 342.316 or 317.865, depending on whether or not (respectively) you have the 2-set DPS bonus.

 

Now, 12.226 FLs give us 48.902 ticks, at 1% Force apiece, regening a total of 293.414 Force. In addition, we get 60 seconds of base regen for a total of 480 Force. Net: -71.002 or -46.551 force per minute, depending on your 2-set status. That gives a longevity of 8.5 minutes or 13 minutes, depending on set bonuses.

 

In reality, 100% uptime on cooldowns and DoT is functionally impossible, so your total deficit will likely be somewhat lower. Current simulation shows Madness to have at least a 15 minute dps endurance under most circumstances. In either case, Madness is certainly not the "45-second spec" the OP claimed (in fact, it would take nearly 45 seconds to OOF yourself just spamming DI back to back).

 

Do you have the spare Force to shield, heal, purge, or heavily AoE? No, and that's certainly a weakness of Madness. If it were up to me, DF's baseline cost would be reduced to 25 (like the assassin version, when fully skilled). That would reduce per-minute consumption by 100. If EI were also properly made to affect CD and CT, and were made to round the force cost to the nearest integer rather than always rounding up, it would also significantly help.

Edited April 24, 2012 by Daellia

[Sinaii]

You are missing lot of control, while in pve situation control doesn't count a lot in pve it's completly different, the snare is always activated as it's for the force speed, for the stun for the bump, ect, count them too and we will see.

 

And you asumed that you can manage easily to force lightning without having to interupt which rarely happens in pvp situation against player who consider sorcerer dangerous; so you won't be able to regen as much as you have on the paper while you will be able to non stop cast the dot and spam the cc in proper situation because nobody can interupt you.

 

 

Sorcerer is a nuker, you don't wait the good target at the good moment to start using some skills, no you have to spam the 3 dot always with the snare and deathmark and just keep the stun and the bump for heavy income on you.

 

There are only a few most of the time you will stop casting force lightning when madness proc because you want the dot boost and somebody is coming near you, only in 1V1 situation you "may" have the time to complete it entierely.

 

So relying on it to fullfill the mana is just not possible.

 

I'm playing an agressive play style, doing 300 to 500k with madness is not a big deal, but it's a pain in the *** and you have to spam consomtion over time with a healer on you after 1min.

 

Again I maintain my 1min, I recorded it with my watch. But i wasn't sitting and spaming force lightning , that's sure...

 

Sorcerers sitting and spaming force lightning with deathmark and crushing darkness when it's up are just free kill they don't see anything coming, but for sure they always have 50%+ force left.. or even 100% when they have 1 or 2 points in effusion.

 

While in the same time you can easily do the same amount of dame with no problem using this time effusion it just recquire more wait on proc and you can spam cc as hell as you wish. This is just unbalanced.

Edited April 24, 2012 by Sinaii

[Daellia]

You are missing lot of control, while in pve situation control doesn't count a lot in pve it's completly different, the snare is always activated as it's for the force speed, for the stun for the bump, ect, count them too and we will see.

 

And you asumed that you can manage easily to force lightning without having to interupt which rarely happens in pvp situation against player who consider sorcerer dangerous; so you won't be able to regen as much as you have on the paper while you will be able to non stop cast the dot and spam the cc in proper situation because nobody can interupt you.

 

Yes, as I've stated before, in PvP, Madness is not force-neutral, but frankly, it isn't really intended to be. If you're using all of your utility abilities (which are generally expensive on purpose), you're supposed to run out of force. Otherwise that utility has no cost. Hell, up until 1.2, warriors had to spend rage even to interrupt.

 

I'm playing an agressive play style, doing 300 to 500k with madness is not a big deal, but it's a pain in the *** and you have to spam consomtion over time with a healer on you after 1min.

 

Again I maintain my 1min, I recorded it with my watch. But i wasn't sitting and spaming force lightning , that's sure...

 

Yes, and that's what is supposed to happen. Playing aggressively carries the implicit side-effect of limited endurance. The fact that you can extend that with Consumption is just icing on the cake. If a BH played as aggressively as you claim to, they would be maxed on heat inside 15 seconds, 20-25 if they pop Vent Heat, and then would be useless for about about 25-30 seconds as their heat dissipated. Madness doesn't need that much more regen (though it could use a bit). You need to realize that playing at that aggression level carries an intentional limit.

[Sinaii]

when I understand what you said, I still consider the limit is too mich restrictive and we should have a little help to be able to manage the force a little bit while in move, the the solution you first propoed looks fine to me.

 

Boost the consomtion for this spec.

[Karkais]

Also, why is Chain Lightning even in a Madness discussion? Wrath and CL shouldn't really ever be in the same spec post 1.2.

 

They can perfectly be in same spec, I have them, only that CL requires lightning storm also. But I admit that chain lightning is now much much much less important than it was before, regardless of spec.

[FlatOut_nlF]

Sinaii,

I fully agree with you. I always run out of force in pvp, even in pve on bosses. I think i`d spec to lightning effusion to have some force, because its really annoying that you have to wait for force regen or sacrife.

[Daellia]

They can perfectly be in same spec, I have them, only that CL requires lightning storm also. But I admit that chain lightning is now much much much less important than it was before, regardless of spec.

 

I say they should never be in the same spec, not because they can't, but because they shouldn't be. The sequence of using Wrath on LS, hoping for a Storm proc, then using CL is invariably an overall dps loss, almost entirely due to the fact that Wrath LS is a pretty significant dps loss over just spamming more Force Lightning. Basically, for any spec that you could come up with that has both Wrath and Lightning Storm in it, you could be performing better with a spec that does not (in PvE, the difference can easily exceed 10% more damage from a different spec).

[FlatOut_nlF]

I say they should never be in the same spec, not because they can't, but because they shouldn't be. The sequence of using Wrath on LS, hoping for a Storm proc, then using CL is invariably an overall dps loss, almost entirely due to the fact that Wrath LS is a pretty significant dps loss over just spamming more Force Lightning. Basically, for any spec that you could come up with that has both Wrath and Lightning Storm in it, you could be performing better with a spec that does not (in PvE, the difference can easily exceed 10% more damage from a different spec).

 

So, as you say spec with Lightning Effusion should be something like this:

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#201ZbsMrbMrZcrdRsMk.1 ?

[Cempa]

I think Madness Sorcerers do exceptionally well in PvP and PvE. In PvE, it comes out as one of the top dmg producing specs, and even the hybrid without Creeping Terror is heavy Madness.

 

If you're unable to maintain your force with the Madness spec, I think you're not doing it right. Let's assume you are using a Madness spec that's like this http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#201hZbcMZcrbRsdkrfz.1.

 

Force Lightning costs 30 Force, and ticks 4 times. So you should regain 4% of your Force whenever you use it to it's fullest. 4% should regen approximately 24, and your normal regen is 8 per second. The only time you should be running out of force (assuming you know how to play correctly) is if you're shielding yourself all the time, casting force storm multiple times, using Shock on CD while not moving, or you're clipping your Force Lightning way too much.

 

I typically play with a corruption spec, but when I'm DPS, I usually play with Madness. I've done almost every HM FP, and some of the Ops with Madness, and haven't run into a situation where I didn't have any force at the end of an encounter. I didn't have full force, but I definitely didn't end up having to sit around for my force to regen or use Consumption.

 

But you do all of that as a hybrid or 31 lightning and heal as well!

[Cempa]

Went back and played 31 Madness today for about 2 hour and I admit its fun BUT it is pure fail in PvP due to the Force issue.

 

Not taking about blow out games!

 

Talking close tough games in which I was in combat most of the game....I was dry...no Force and Consumption is crap!

 

I tried to spam Force Lightning when dry..What a joke!

 

The spec is broken in competitive PvP, it only works as a fun kiting build....Though good luck the second a skilled Operative opens from stealth....

 

----

 

Played 31 Lightning for 2 more hors also:

 

What a crap build, absolutely horrible for PvP! Its as if the designers said lets give them a build with next to no mobility and see how they do with it!

 

x3 Forked my 31 was hitting for 3k but I couldn't put enough pressure on a Sorcerer healer! SORCERER the easiest healer to kill,,,

 

As a hybrid I eat sorcerer healers for breakfast.

 

BW royally messed up 31 builds for PvP...Royally!

Edited April 25, 2012 by Cempa

[Lecutes]

Cempa what build are you running with ?

[Cempa]

Madness: 2/7/32 http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#201MZbc0MZfMbRsrkrfz.1

 

I know the healing will not help against burst but I can NOT afford Shock, its too high a cost on my Force :/ sigh bad game design. Also I can NOT afford Dark Heal not even 2 or 3 casts!! So I spec into faster Dark Infusion at least I may be able to get 3 off before being near dry.

 

Lightning: 2/32/7 http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#201MZbsbRdRrutzZcM0M.1

 

I have no time to cast Shock, so did not spec into it. Spec needs the planets to allign to have a chance of a decent 1-2 punch type of thing. The spec cause tunnel vision, RNG based both caster and target side -stay in range long enough, does not get a dispel or a heal lolz. Mobility is none existent.

 

Hybrid: 2/18/21 http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#201MZfc0rbMMZcMcRsrk.1

 

The 2 points in healing and the 2 points into 15% less DoT damage can be moved around. The 2 points into healing can go into AE blind and the 2 points into 15% less DoT damage can go into 2% less damage.

 

This is the true Sorcerer build as it stands due to the double dip Barrage bug. I could not replicate the double dip as a 31 Lightning.

 

This is an incredibly mobile build, if you see me play I am always moving, the only time I stop is when I cast Force Lightning and most of the time its under Barrage. I will cast Force Lightning out of Barrage of course but again its when I am left alone -against PuGs.

 

Death Field is as mandatory as you can get for PvP due to the burst.

 

This build puts good pressure on healers. Sorcerer healers either get help or I kill them. Mercs I can't solo unless they suck. Operative healers I can't get below 50% lololo They are IMBA, they cast while moving!

 

If and when they fix the double dip bug on this build they will kill the class in PvP as DPS. I will not be able to put pressure on any decent player.

 

FINAL VERDICT:

 

Madness is very close, it needs to have the same Force Management -if that term is correct- as 31 Lightning. Self healing of Madness I can not decide on because it lacks burst. I'd rather see that healing removed and Wrath work on healing spells even if that means moving Wrath further up the tree -thus killing hybrid for ever.

 

I'd like to see Shock viable as 31 Madness -as in on CD use force wise in mind.

 

Last but not least I ask that Electric Binding move down to the bottom of the tree so a 31 Madness can get it.

 

ALL OF THE ABOVE is if an when they fix double dip Barrage bug.

Edited April 26, 2012 by Cempa

[Karkais]

I say they should never be in the same spec, not because they can't, but because they shouldn't be. The sequence of using Wrath on LS, hoping for a Storm proc, then using CL is invariably an overall dps loss, almost entirely due to the fact that Wrath LS is a pretty significant dps loss over just spamming more Force Lightning. Basically, for any spec that you could come up with that has both Wrath and Lightning Storm in it, you could be performing better with a spec that does not (in PvE, the difference can easily exceed 10% more damage from a different spec).

 

Whoever said anything about using lightning strike to proc lightning storm? That is just stupid sequence. Lightning strike shouldnt be used on anything except maybe quickly finishing a trash mob.

 

What chain lightning and lightning storm are for is clearing trash: force storm a trash group, proc lightning storm, finish them off with chain lightning. Chain lightning is no longer part of any singletarget rotation. Period. That doesnt mean it cant be used.

 

Sure you can get better singletarget dps by using the chain lightning-related points up in the madness tree, but apples and oranges.

 

In other words, you were right about lightning strike but didn't get my meaning.

 

ps. Notice the total lack of the letters "PVP" in the topic post.

Edited April 26, 2012 by Karkais

[Daellia]

Whoever said anything about using lightning strike to proc lightning storm? That is just stupid sequence. Lightning strike shouldnt be used on anything except maybe quickly finishing a trash mob.

 

What chain lightning and lightning storm are for is clearing trash: force storm a trash group, proc lightning storm, finish them off with chain lightning. Chain lightning is no longer part of any singletarget rotation. Period. That doesnt mean it cant be used.

 

Sure you can get better singletarget dps by using the chain lightning-related points up in the madness tree, but apples and oranges.

 

In other words, you were right about lightning strike but didn't get my meaning.

 

ps. Notice the total lack of the letters "PVP" in the topic post.

 

A valid use of the skill point. Then again, nerfing your single-target (read: boss) damage in order to amplify your AoE dps (which, by definition, is meant to be mindlessly AoE'd) is a rather questionable decision. I could see it being useful for farming hardmode flashpoints (Lost Island excepted, due to the rather tight enrage timer on certain bosses, particularly with PuGs), but certainly not for operations.

[Sinaii]

Does any dev find the management of the force working as intended or they absolutly don't care that a spec is not fun to play after 45sec ?

 

No clues ?

 

We just cannot wait the heat to lower as specialists, we need something, seriously, I agree this must not be too much or it will make it overpowered but just a little.

 

The lack of answer to this thread just show that most sorcerers still prefer the hybrid spec, and myself i find it more usefull for longfight, but it just boring as *** to play waiting for proc doing middle rate damage with the dots.

[Sinaii]

/up until a dev answer if it's possible in the future

 

For the boost I would rather see a 1 to 1 ratio for consumption with devour, so you sacrifice 15% HP but you get 15% force back too, that's means for somebody with 17500K HP you will sacrifice 2625 HP to get back 90 Force.

 

Actualy you lose 2625 hp and you get 30 force back when most of the important skills recquire more than 30 force to survive and cc, pffffffffffffffffffff

Edited April 30, 2012 by Sinaii