DPS sages/sorcerers have very few options.

[kcol]

I think what it is is people expected sorcs to be more like mages when in reality they are more like warlocks. DOT DOT, run, apply pressure, CC, DOT ect

 

 

 

the merc/commandos are the mages of the bunch. better aoe and direct damage/casted burst

 

 

 

i would be for giving them a small buff. but saying that a class is in a wrong place when it's not the exact playstyle YOU wanted doesn't make it wrong.

 

From my personal experience the balance tree plays exactly like a shadow priest.

[L-RANDLE]

My stuff got moved eventhough I thought it had more weight in the PvP discussion, because any spec is viable in PvE. Here is the TL/DR version, but follow the link for full details.

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=418855

 

 

TL: DR

1. Increase our kiting abilities.

2. Give us a defensive CD and a threat generator on long CD’s (aka better defense on the balance tree).

3. Nerf our AoE DMG output further.

4. Give us more attack types: Internal v Kinetic (better single target DPS).

5. Increase our CC CD’s (which are a bit much).

Edited April 30, 2012 by L-RANDLE

[Visue]

From my personal experience the balance tree plays exactly like a shadow priest.

 

But the DoT spec is the only option right now, besides the hybrid and an extraordinarily vulnerable Telekinetics/Lightning tree.

[Visue]

My stuff got moved eventhough I thought it had more weight in the PvP discussion, because any spec is viable in PvE. Here is the TL/DR version, but follow the link for full details.

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=418855

 

 

TL: DR

1. Increase our kiting abilities.

2. Give us a defensive CD and a threat generator on long CD’s (aka better defense on the balance tree).

3. Nerf our AoE DMG output further.

4. Give us more attack types: Internal v Kinetic (better single target DPS).

5. Increase our CC CD’s (which are a bit much).

 

Here's the full post.

 

 

Intro:

This is a proposed change to the Sage/Sorc AC DPS/Kiting, as I feel 1.2 fails to make our class viable @ PvP (once ranked is deployed) and PvE (in some ways). The focus is PvP and is a constructive thread made for proposals, not conjecture or opinion on how un-/powerful we are or L2P issues. I have played standard (3/7/31), hybrid (0/23/18), modified standard (2/11/28; 0/13/28) and have been playing since launch on this character only. I have a mix of BM/Rakata gear and I feel I have a good grasp of my flaws and strengths when compared to other characters, but with 1.2 the balance seems lop-sided.

I tried to give 1.2 a chance. I still have my AoE/CC damage, which looks good on a leaderboard, but realistically it feels like I am Brock Lesner’s backhoe tire, and “other” classes have his sledgehammer and pounding me with it. This was not the case pre 1.2 and was not due to the change in PoM proc. The buffs other classes got, along with the already inflated cc, have severely crippled Sages/Sorcs. It has gotten players to the point that most are quitting/rerolling or stubborn as hell and enduring the beatings (I am the latter). It is pretty obvious that 1.2 has made our survivability suspect, at best. With the mass re-rolls and somewhat “unwarranted” nerfs some classes were subject to makes me highly doubtful I can use my Sage will be viable in Ranked. This is just background to understand my proposed changes.

 

Problems (the good; the bad; the ugly):

-Sages/Sorcs were overpowered from the PvP damage output perspective: We needed a nerf, and I think another is required. I will explain more on this later.

- Our skill trees are incorrectly balanced from a role perspective: The “shared tree” is not really shared and the other two have misguided skills for the role. I thought game mechanics would have made us kiting DoTers (Balance Tree), burst DPS/Off-DPS (TK Tree) or healers (Seer Tree), but we can’t get enough in a single tree to excel at any of these. Since this was not addressed before 1.2, our flaws are now even more evident, given the nerfs and buffs that took place.

-We have no defensive CD/threat generator, but too much CC: Seems like most classes have at least one DFCD, and some with more depending on skill tree or class. There are none for our class. Our CC is the main contributor to the OP’d threads. It just so happens some of the CC is directly attached to our AoE, which is a problem.

-Most of our attacks are Force based but are kinetic damage: We have very few ways to initiate internal damage. Since we are heavy force-users, lore and role dictates that most of our attacks should be internal types and also takes armor rating out of the equation.

 

 

 

Proposed Changes (Can we get some of the dogmatic view of the Jedi Counslars?)

 

Tree Changes:

1. Swap “Two Disciplines” from the Shadow/Sin balance tree with “Assertion” from the Sage/Sorc balance tree (both are on the same tier anyway): This will give us some melee bonus on each “Project” (more on this later). This should be an easy change since it is a “shared tree”.

2. Swap “Kinetic Collapse” from the TK tree, for “Psychic Suffusion” and move that high in the TK tree: This gives more decisive need to spec high in TK for max DPS and gives Seers a better tool for survival while healing.

3. Change “Mind Ward” to ALL ATTACKs, but nerf it to max reduction @10% instead of 14%: This will help the balance tree in kiting/tanking aspirations.

4. Get rid of “Rescue” and make “Force Pull” a lower threat friendly on the seer tree and “Force Push” on the balance tree that generates high threat and “small perks” if the attackers hit someone else (an effective taunt): If we want to kite, then we need a threat generator.

5. Add a “Double Strike/Sabre Strike” talent on the TK tree: How much and what tier? Eh!! Maybe 20% and tier 3 or 4. It gives incentive to spec in the TK tree.

6. Revisit all Sage/Sorc skill trees because they are not really role defining (except maybe the Seer tree): I could go on for days about the trees, but for length considerations, I will leave it at that.

 

Talent Changes:

1. Nerf our AoE DAMAGE OUTPUT by 30%, and change Force in Balance to a Kinetic attack: The PoM proc was causing the issue, but if you reduce the damage on ANY PoM proc’d attack, then the number would have fell in line better. Say “instant activate, but decrease damage by 30% over a straight activated one”. As a whole, AoE is much more valuable to prevent caps/plants, but the damage made our numbers outlandish on PvP leaderboards and still does to a degree.

2. Change Mind Crush to an internal attack and Disturbance to an elemental attack and buff them 20%, and take out the “root” requirement: Mind Crush should have NOTHING to do with armor rating (unless by “mind crush” you mean sticking your head in a force-vise). It should be an attack on the person’s mind; not their head, and would fall more in-line with the lore of consulars. Only mental resistance talents that are spec’d out or talents should mitigate a withering of the mind. The Disturbance animation is a “lightning ball” so make it an attack that can only be shielded with generators or redirected/mitigated with talents.

3. Give us a talent like “Deflection” on a 2min CD: Deflection is in the Shadow/Sin pool, and should be an easy add.

4. Lock “Tumult” to Sage/Sorc only, unlock “Tumult” so we can use it against other players and buff “Tumult” 50%, increase the CD on “Tumult” to 90 sec, and keep the incapacitated requirement as is on “Tumult”: Whew!!! It’s a lot, but did I mention changes to “Tumult” are long overdue. I mean seriously. We already have limited attacks (as some call us “one-button wonders”). Why not open us up to more melee, if the range is eliminated. This could be our “Neo, matrix style, nuke” but it still would require a stunned opponent and good timing to connect (saying a breaker is available to the opponent and they are willing to use it).

5. Increase the CD of ALL CC (Force Wave, Force Stun, Force Lift)abilities by 20 Sec: This will need to be the tradeoff since it would appease the “Sage/Sorc CC is too much” crowd (resolve makes our CC ineffective at a certain point, but whatev…)

 

 

Conclusion

These are just observations and suggestions I have come up with. Overall I feel these changes will not cause an “overperformance” as BW calls it, and all classes can live with these. Even if BW implemented a few of these, our Quality of Life would greatly improve and also make us more viable for rated warzones. Even if it is just for a trial, I encourage BW to do it.

If you want to add or change ideas, feel free, but like I said comment on why the idea is bad; not anything else. I want to keep this 100. I can accept my ideas being critiqued, but fanboy; class bashing is not what this thread is about. Come correct, or don’t come at all…

 

TL: DR

1. Increase our kiting abilities.

2. Give us a defensive CD and a threat generator on long CD’s (aka better defense on the balance tree).

3. Nerf our AoE DMG output further.

4. Give us more attack types: Internal v Kinetic (better single target DPS).

5. Increase our CC CD’s (which are a bit much).

[Visue]

I agree. People overemphasize damage done/healing done. It's partly BioWare's fault because of the 300k medals and MVP votes. In WoW, a good affliction lock can almost double anyone else's damage in the battlegrounds by tab dotting, but no one is really afraid of them. Actually you don't even really notice them unless you really look because the scoreboard there prominently features killing blows instead... which, imo, is a better measure of dps effectiveness.

 

Yeah, keep telling yourself how awesome you are because you out-damaged that operative that sent you to the respawn every time he caught you alone.

 

I always wondered why killing blows were never displayed at the end of a warzone. It seems to me that this would be a more effective way to measure DPS class effectiveness in PvP than damage done.

 

The recent changes almost make me wonder if BioWare is making PvP balance decisions based on aggregate warzone damage numbers.

Edited April 25, 2012 by Visue

[broganthomas]

I wouldn't even bother playing my sage anymore.

[QuiJonPed]

It's an option, but it's not a great one if you don't like playing DoT specs. It's a different playstyle.

 

There is a world of difference between no option and not liking the options which are available to you. It's no different to the "there is nothing to do in SW:ToR" crowd (as opposed there is nothing you want to do).

Edited April 25, 2012 by QuiJonPed

[Karkais]

3. Nerf our AoE DMG output further.

.

Why? Its one of the few reasons why you might want a sorcerer in team over a marauder..

Edited April 25, 2012 by Karkais

[kenbenobi]

In 1.2 PvP, direct-DPS sages/sorcerers may:

 

 

A. spam Telekinetic Throw/Force Lightning (as a hybrid)

 

or

 

B. play one of the most vulnerable PvP specs in the game (Telekinetics/Lightning).

 

 

The reason that people played the hybrid sage/sorcerer specs to begin with was that they provided better damage relative to the full 31-point Balance/Madness or Telekinetics/Lightning specs.

 

Post-1.2 the hybrid still outperforms full Balance or full Telekinetics, albeit by a smaller margin. Most of that damage comes from spamming a single ability, Telekinetic Throw or Force Lightning, over and over in between Presence of Mind procs.

 

If a player now decides to spec a sage/sorcerer into a full skill tree, 31-point Telekinetics/Lightning and Balance/Madness specs are still every bit as feeble as they were pre-patch (if not more so).

 

The only 31-point non-DoT sage/sorcerer spec, Telekinetics/Lightning, is one of the least viable PvP specs in the game. It boasts almost no mobility, mediocre damage, complete vulnerability to interrupts, and virtually no defensive cooldowns.

 

Now given that it's one of the most vulnerable, fragile PvP specs in the game, why do I play Telekinetics? It's supposed to be the "spike damage" class, which is why I picked a sage to begin with.

 

I did not choose the sage so that I could apply DoTs and watch them tick or be removed (Balance/Madness), and I did not choose a sage so that I could spam one ability,Telekinetic Throw/Lightning, for the vast majority of my damage (hybrid).

 

Telekinetics/Lightning needs fixing.

 

Here is an idea from a thread on the sage forum:

 

 

 

I know there are people out there who will say that I should reroll, and I am indeed leveling other characters at my own pace. However, I would rather start playing another game than focus entirely on another character to the exclusion of my sage.

 

Lightning is turret tree and atm it is impossible to stand in one spot. Boom you are dead because sage/sorc has to kite all the time because they are so squishy. 3 second max lifespan if hitted by any any real dps.

[Gannon]

My personal experience of madness in GROUP pvp is poor. Nearly every single person who has posted reporting how good Madness is in this thread have indicated Warzone numbers or 1v1 play. It's very easy to think your doing very well because you have high numbers or you have kite killed that pesky marauder. In madness I was easily getting 400- 600k most warzones (300k hut balls - you should not be getting more here unless your not objective farming or the enemy team suck and group up). I was pleasantly surprised by the damage and had great survivability and was a beast 1v1 with LOS. My only real contribution to group play was the burst of DF and use of CT at opportune moments to save healers or root full resolve ball carriers.

 

All in all as Madness I don't feel I'm contributing to GROUP PvP enough - too much ineffectual spread damage. Force was a major issue as well - if the design of the tree is to dot everything why aren't our dots more force efficient for pvp? The designed play style is then just to dot you're one target and force lightening spam which lets face it is extremely weak in focus play.

 

Currently I'm running the 1/17/23 Effusion lightening storm deathmark build. I have no force issues with one point in effusion. Lightening barrage pops every cooldown so I have great double dip burst with Deathfield. I can burst healers down now. I have an aoe knock back root and a shorter cooldown force speed to escape. All in all I feel much more useful to the team in this spec. Yes a lot of my damage is still dotting everyone but that's to get the proc to burst. Damage is similar numbers but much more burst.

 

In addition I use force storm on groups for big chain lightening procs. Significant added pressure if situational. I think the spec is very viable and in terms of our most viable PVP spec at the moment. It's not that boring as you are watching procs of Lightning storm and deciding when an instant LS maybe useful rather than recasting the higher dmg FL. At the mOment I'm considering moving the point in crit to CD to add around 10% dmg over all to it. I'm not sure which is the stronger.

 

The only other viable alternative in my eyes is the hybrid heal variants of 21/2/18. Another very strong group spec.

 

I do agree full lightening needs tweaking with a stronger filler and 31 point talent. Not that much work:) However I still feel very much viable currently. Most ranged dps have a filler do I'm not sure why people are complaining so much about spamming TK//FL? I do understand the problems with madness though.

Edited April 25, 2012 by Gannon

[Visue]

My personal experience of madness in GROUP pvp is poor. Nearly every single person who has posted reporting how good Madness is in this thread have indicated Warzone numbers or 1v1 play. It's very easy to think your doing very well because you have high numbers or you have kite killed that pesky marauder. In madness I was easily getting 400- 600k most warzones (300k hut balls - you should not be getting more here unless your not objective farming or the enemy team suck and group up). I was pleasantly surprised by the damage and had great survivability and was a beast 1v1 with LOS. My only real contribution to group play was the burst of DF and use of CT at opportune moments to save healers or root full resolve ball carriers.

 

All in all as Madness I don't feel I'm contributing to GROUP PvP enough - too much ineffectual spread damage. Force was a major issue as well - if the design of the tree is to dot everything why aren't our dots more force efficient for pvp? The designed play style is then just to dot you're one target and force lightening spam which lets face it is extremely weak in focus play.

 

Currently I'm running the 1/17/23 Effusion lightening storm deathmark build. I have no force issues with one point in effusion. Lightening barrage pops every cooldown so I have great double dip burst with Deathfield. I can burst healers down now. I have an aoe knock back root and a shorter cooldown force speed to escape. All in all I feel much more useful to the team in this spec. Yes a lot of my damage is still dotting everyone but that's to get the proc to burst. Damage is similar numbers but much more burst.

 

In addition I use force storm on groups for big chain lightening procs. Significant added pressure if situational. I think the spec is very viable and in terms of our most viable PVP spec at the moment. It's not that boring as you are watching procs of Lightning storm and deciding when an instant LS maybe useful rather than recasting the higher dmg FL. At the mOment I'm considering moving the point in crit to CD to add around 10% dmg over all to it. I'm not sure which is the stronger.

 

The only other viable alternative in my eyes is the hybrid heal variants of 21/2/18. Another very strong group spec.

 

I do agree full lightening needs tweaking with a stronger filler and 31 point talent. Not that much work:) However I still feel very much viable currently. Most ranged dps have a filler do I'm not sure why people are complaining so much about spamming TK//FL? I do understand the problems with madness though.

 

I guess I just wonder why we don't have a viable spec that can produce real burst damage in PvP, which fills a fundamentally different role than Balance/Madness' periodic damage.

Edited April 27, 2012 by Visue

[Chemic_al]

Yeah, I'm fully behind the changes here, even if they are PvP oriented, there's no doubt DPS sorcs are bottom of the tree in PvE as well compared to maraurders, powertechs etc, and these suggestions would help in that regard too.

 

I love the concept of the the lightning tree, but yes the lack of burst is really hurting and long cast time for thundering blast means hardly ever get it off unless I'm against a bad team that lets you freecast. And yes, need lightning strike to be buffed in damage, and made instant.

Edited April 27, 2012 by Chemic_al

[L-RANDLE]

Why? Its one of the few reasons why you might want a sorcerer in team over a marauder..

 

AoE damage has little baring on why it is useful in PvP. If I were looking for a Sage/Sorc, the utility of AoE is what is needed, not the damage. It is the "action of performing of an AoE" that makes it useful (i.e. preventing caps on 2 or more enemies, rooting 2 or more melee classes, adding procs).

[Visue]

Until the melee/ranged PvP balance is fixed, other games will be more fun than this one. Edited May 2, 2012 by Visue

[fungihoujo]

You have a perfectly viable option as a sorcerer in order to do well in pvp.

 

It's called rerolling a marauder.

 

Problem fixed, you'll even be OP and sorcs will need to be nerfed again because of it when people figure it out!