Medics are broken beyond repair. The game is no longer fun.

[Smashbrother]

Completely incorrect. The problem is that most of you don't understand the role a healer is supposed to have. This isn't WoW, where a healer can stand there and tank another player. The healers, in this game, are meant to be healers. They're not meant to be able to take a high amount of damage, or go toe-to-toe with another class. If a healer doesn't have support, he/she *should* die. One-on-one against a DPS, a healer should always be killed.

 

Sorry to ruffle your feathers, but that's the entire point of the class. If you want to do damage or take damage, roll a dps or tank. If you want to fill a specific role that's immensely helpful but can't do everything on its own, stay healer.

 

And yes, this is coming from someone who *IS* a healer, and has no problems at all with 1.2. I have a Shadow Tank and CM healer and feel that CM has been vastly improved upon with these changes. We were way OP before, and needed to be brought back in line with the class description.

 

This is just plain idiotic. If you believe a healer should always lose to a dps 1v1, than why would any team bring a healer instead of a dps?

 

We were too ammo efficient pre 1.2, but that was about it. We weren't unkillable juggernauts (ala disc priest from WoW). What BW did was greatly nerf our ammo efficiency (AMP/MP combo is 33% more costly, SCC giving 1 instead of 2 ammo, probe costing 2 ammo instead of free) and at the same time increased everyone's damage in pvp due to expertise being changed around.

 

It should have been one or the other, but definitely not both.

[lazraven]

L2P and stop whining

[JustTray]

lol funny. I AM a level 50 commando medic healer with 4/5 rakata, rakata implants, ear piece, and rest columi items and i dont suck at all. At first i used to be such a complainer. I'd always say "omg bioware made my class suck i am never going to heal again because healing sucks as a commando" and i always said it 24/7 that is until i learned how to play my class. if you cant relearn your class and do it right im sorry you just dont have the capacity to play an mmo. Once i learned how to heal correctly, use my ammo when the right time it needed to be applied and when to use my free instant heal. also yes we were OP'd before 1.2 honestly healing was a joke in pvp and pve god i loved it because i had the easiest job. though the nerf was a bit overboard i wouldnt mind all they did except i have 2 problems. one is trauma probe should cost 1 ammo so we could have a bit more breathing room and the next one is instead of making super charge only good for giving one ammo back it should also have the effect were it recduces the ammo cost of med probe after adv probe is used so it would be like pre 1.2 when using scc med probe cost 1 after using adv probe but only during scc. also on another note for pvp if you dont know the common way things play out let me put it in simple terms. pvp is like rock paper scissors when it comes to 1 on 1 (saying both are smart players and around same gear for most part). a healer will always lose to a dps due to high damage output, a dps will always lose to a tank due to tanks high damage reduction and buffs to outlast the damage, and a tank will always lose to a healer due to the tank having low dps and the healer able to out heal it and dps at the same time. thats how it always is i have fought a dps with healer and of course got creamed and fought a tank and beat them pretty simple. when i was on my level 50 knight tank i could easily just buff when needed to and be able to kill them while having a lot of there damage reduced. also this is after 1.2

 

Ok? What's your point? I'm 5/5 rakata healing merc pre 1.2. Yes healing was easy and more error friendly. However, with the changes to critical efficiency and supercharged gas, the spec is literally not playable compared to the other two healers. I still have not yet seen a merc healer in a successful raid. Operative and Sorc healers are hands down superior in every category.

 

That's the issue. It's not that you can still spec it an under ideal circumstances, do ok. The issue is that they're super far behind the other healing counterparts. I don't think thats arguable, and I'm pretty sure the healing numbers back it up.

Edited May 4, 2012 by LexiCazam
IC/old post

[HotLeadSingerGuy]

OK so just put a dps on the healer, and he can"t do anything than trying to heal himself to delay the inevitable? So 0 contribution to the overall battle outcome.

 

Smart.

 

Yes. That's the reason that the Tank and DPS classes are *SUPPORT* for the healers. They're meant to protect the healer. If they can't, the healer should die. The Healer class is a specified archetype that should barely be able to defend itself...and that's finally what it is in pvp. The entire point is that the rest of the team makes sure the healer remains safe, so the healer can make sure the rest of the team remains alive.

 

rjavig is completely correct. I should have mentioned that when I play my CM, despite only being tier1-geared, I'm almost always at the top of the list and earning the most medals. That's because I know how to play my class, and I play with people I know know how to play theirs.

 

This is just plain idiotic. If you believe a healer should always lose to a dps 1v1, than why would any team bring a healer instead of a dps?

 

We were too ammo efficient pre 1.2, but that was about it. We weren't unkillable juggernauts (ala disc priest from WoW). What BW did was greatly nerf our ammo efficiency (AMP/MP combo is 33% more costly, SCC giving 1 instead of 2 ammo, probe costing 2 ammo instead of free) and at the same time increased everyone's damage in pvp due to expertise being changed around.

 

It should have been one or the other, but definitely not both.

 

lol I can't tell if you're semi-joking. It sounds like the rant of a child that doesn't understand game mechanics. The reason the team would bring a healer is to keep *THEM* alive. DPS classes are meant to kill the opposing team...healers are meant to protect yours. For a team to be most effective, they have a mix of both, along with a good tank. Thinking we weren't unkillable juggernauts pre-1.2 is similarly ridiculous...there's a reason every idiot that didn't know how to play CM was still at the top of the leaderboard. That shouldn't happen. In order to be at the top, you should be able to *PLAY* like the top.

 

Once again, I don't seem to be having problems post-1.2. I'm still near the top, and I still get praises from my teams at the end of each WZ for doing a great job.

 

And the numbers do *not* back up the claim that CM are worse than the rest. The difference is that we don't have the same capacity for burst healing...but we have a *MASSIVE* capacity for long-term healing. The reason I end up at the top of each board is that I stay alive and continue to heal the entire fight (because the rest of my team is competent).

 

I'm sorry some of you guys feel that you can't stay alive...but if you learn to play how 1.2 demands you play, and you get people that know how to play (or teach them how), then you'll stay alive. If the tank and DPS are doing their jobs well, you won't be taking much damage at all unless you get ganged-up-on.

Edited April 24, 2012 by HotLeadSingerGuy

[germil]

By healer protection you mean guard.

 

If stuff is balanced around guard, taunt... then they are not balanced when these buff are not here.

 

Thats the problem, they are not present all the time. And I don't want to be just viable only half of the time. DPS can be effective all the time, and enjoy themself in casual pugs (yes, not optimised teamplay is part of the game).

[HotLeadSingerGuy]

By healer protection you mean guard.

 

If stuff is balanced around guard, taunt... then they are not balanced when these buff are not here.

 

Thats the problem, they are not present all the time. And I don't want to be just viable only half of the time. DPS can be effective all the time, and enjoy themself in casual pugs (yes, not optimised teamplay is part of the game).

 

Well then eventually people will realize they *have* to be there, and play accordingly. As a healer, you're a support class. You're not an assault class or defense class...you're a support class. Your *ENTIRE* purpose is to be there to help others. Thinking you should be able to stand toe-to-toe with a DPS or Tank archetype is utterly ridiculous.

 

I'm sorry to ruin everyone's misconception of a healer class...but just realize it and learn how to *correctly* play your class, or roll something else. Again...those of us that learn how to play correctly don't have the problems that the rest of you seem to.

[PhantomMalice]

First of all I think you aren't aggressive with your skills enough. If I was put into your situation, these are the following steps I would do.

 

Defensive wise: Apply Trauma Probe on yourselves to mitigate damage, think of it as extra layer of armor. I always Adrenaline Rush when I see predictable stun coming. That way for the duration of the stun, you are not completely open.

 

 

Here is what I will do differently offensively in terms of peeling DPS off you:

 

- 2 DPS engage you and you knocked back. This is good, but I would follow-up quickly by casting Concussive Round on Marauder first. There is no reason to not to attempt because you have the high-ground and if the cast succeeds that's a 1 min CC that the Marauder has to eat or force his Resolute on.

 

- Assuming your CC failed and Mara re-engage you, at the same time you saw the Operator go stealth.

1. Reactive Shield, Trauma Probe and Adrenaline Rush should be out by now.

2. I would place myself back against the wall and drop Stealth Scan right on top of where I stand. The application here is aggressively defending your position by marking a "no-man zone" for the OP, thus temporary eliminating the number of DPS to engage you. It also preemptive measure against Force Camo for some reason.

3. If you haven't yet, Cyro Grenade the Marauder and immediately follow it up but Concussive Round. I know this combo can be risky and appears stupid on paper (because it only takes one CC remover to get rid of both), but my personal experience with PvPers is that they tend to have quick trigger fingers and more often than not, they remove my Cyro Grenade before walking straight into my Concussive Round.

4. By this point I would abandon my position and run to my teammate for support. Any dimwit seeing a healer training enemy players behind them will eventually figure out to engage the enemy players for you.

 

----------

Also Full Battle Masters are garbage nowadays, you might as well wear PvE gear. From now on, it's Augmented Orange gear or Get The Firetruck Off in warzones. You should really try it out, soon you will be "choo-chooing" 3-4 DPS behind you with proper CDs.

Edited April 24, 2012 by PhantomMalice

[germil]

Thinking you should be able to stand toe-to-toe with a DPS or Tank archetype is utterly ridiculous.

 

Why are you mentioning tanks? Their entire purpose is to protect healer no? And being useless without them?

[germil]

Also Full Battle Masters are garbage nowadays, you might as well wear PvE gear.

 

Good luck PVPing and being focused fired as a healer with no expertise.

[ImariKurumi]

Well then eventually people will realize they *have* to be there, and play accordingly. As a healer, you're a support class. You're not an assault class or defense class...you're a support class. Your *ENTIRE* purpose is to be there to help others. Thinking you should be able to stand toe-to-toe with a DPS or Tank archetype is utterly ridiculous.

 

I'm sorry to ruin everyone's misconception of a healer class...but just realize it and learn how to *correctly* play your class, or roll something else. Again...those of us that learn how to play correctly don't have the problems that the rest of you seem to.

 

Yeah, i wanna roll a Necro... that'll be fun...

[HotLeadSingerGuy]

Why are you mentioning tanks? Their entire purpose is to protect healer no? And being useless without them?

 

Not useless. Tanks are meant to soak up damage, which they do fairly well. A Tank and a DPS should be able to go toe-to-toe and be about even, since the Tank can take a lot of damage and deal a little, while the DPS can deal a lot of damage and take a little. It should be close to evening out. A healer on either side of that formula should change the game though (which it does).

 

Tanks are meant to protect the people that can't protect themselves. If this weren't true, there'd be no need for a tank in raids.

 

The way you guys seem to suggest that DPS and Healer should be even makes it seem you would also believe a raid should be able to consist of a tank and all healers...which would be ludicrous. Every archetype serves a specific purpose, which finally they do.

[Agenteusa]

Pre 1.2 - No point targeting good healers since you could kill them (unless they were an operative/sawbones).

 

1.2 - Healers are killable but the good ones with protection are still difficult to kill. There is nothing wrong with merc healers. The prob was you guys were by far the best pvp healers pre 1.2 and could basically stay in the middle of the fray healing everyone.

 

Now they made you killable you complain. Well it´s a fair logic but it needed to be done. And there are still very good merc healers on my server that I can´t kill on my own as a full BM with WH pieces Pyro PT. I can harass them but if I don´t get help I will go down before he goes as his team does the job of killing me.

 

So bottom line is, this isn´t single player, you´re not supposed to have a player being a decisive factor to a WZ on his own. If you´re facing a dps on your own (specially a anni marauder which you don´t seem to understand how they work and how good they are against healers as it´s basically their job) and nobody helps you, it´s your team´s fault, not your class.

[ErrantMercenary]

So bottom line is, this isn´t single player, you´re not supposed to have a player being a decisive factor to a WZ on his own. If you´re facing a dps on your own (specially a anni marauder which you don´t seem to understand how they work and how good they are against healers as it´s basically their job) and nobody helps you, it´s your team´s fault, not your class.

 

I've already moved onto another game so make of that what you will, but this is a sentiment that boggles my mind:

 

Why is it that people seem so diametrically opposed to a well played player being the difference maker in ANY encounter whether it's PvP or PvE? To me, that sounds like incentive to master my class so that

 

A) against opponents playing poorly, I can run the table on them

 

and

 

B) Ensure that I know my class and team mechanics well enough to prevent another player achieving the same kind of results.

 

Before I go any further, I will say that as a Commando, I felt our PvP healing was in need of some nerfs to bring us more in line, but the end result is too many changes to too much of our class. Resource costs up, effective healing down, utility down has resulted in a knee-jerk overdone product that's a liability to the team that would be better filled with a well played DPS character. And that's bad design.

 

I don't get why you would actively discourage there being a skill gap in PvP, which is what almost all of the changes for ALL healers in PvP do. I played some rounds pre 1.2 where yes, it seemed I was nigh unkillable and that I turned the tide for my team, but it became a cycle that perpetuated itself. Not enough focus on me left me free to dump too much healing into the field which led to our team dominating the round. I've been on the other side of the coin too. I've had good Sentinels/Marauders pick me out of a lineup and make it their life's work to shut me down, and they usually racked up a fair number of kills outside of me also, and led their team to victory too.

 

And you know what, in the heat of the moment, when someone executes that well and you lose really hard, it feels bad, and it's easy to say "Well this is just STUPID and I HATE IT."

 

But why would you be opposed to giving yourself (and your friends) the opportunity to feel heroic? That seems counter to what makes a fun game for me.

[Agenteusa]

But why would you be opposed to giving yourself (and your friends) the opportunity to feel heroic? That seems counter to what makes a fun game for me.

 

Sure you can feel heroic. But others would be entitled to it as well. Pre 1.2 only you would feel heroic most of the times at least.

[HotLeadSingerGuy]

Sure you can feel heroic. But others would be entitled to it as well. Pre 1.2 only you would feel heroic most of the times at least.

 

This. I don't pvp much with my shadow tank, but I do at times with my CM. Pre-1.2 I couldn't stand it, because I'd usually finish the match with close to the least deaths, easily the most healing, and usually a good number of kills too. It was unbelievably cheap. I felt like Jordan playing against a high school team. CM *needed* cutting back.

 

The difference is while many of you think the changes went too far, I disagree. I can still stay near the top of the healing and still keep a low number of deaths...which is exactly where I think we should be. If you don't have a team backing you up and doing *their* jobs, then you won't be able to do yours. Once people start learning that they need to protect the healers (more like they would in PvE encounters), everything will start running more smoothly.

[ErrantMercenary]

Sure you can feel heroic. But others would be entitled to it as well. Pre 1.2 only you would feel heroic most of the times at least.

 

Of course others are entitled to that feeling, I never said otherwise, and it's exactly why I mentioned that there were a handful of players that I legitimately feared because I knew they could make me look like a silly waste of space. My problem now is the math just doesn't shake out. I am, mathematically at my running best, a liability to my team. There weren't logs pre-1.2 to confirm , but most of my Operations now peg me as somewhere between 1100HPS and 1300 HPS in PvE depending on the encounter (or in layman's speak: when things are running optimally, and I have no other demands on my attention) with the ability to burst pump as high as 1600-1700. By comparison, our DPS uninterrupted usually float somewhere around 1300-1500 DPS give or take, depending as always, on class, and encounter.

 

Why do I bring that up in a discussion about PvP? Obviously things rarely run as smoothly in PvP as they would for a healer in PvE, but let's pretend for a second that they do. So I'm talking about a BEST CASE healing scenario where you are left to your own devices, free to pump healing into the group unscathed. The raw HPS/DPS values will scale down in PvP (because such is the nature of PvP gear), but for simplicity's sake, let's say they don't. When you factor in Trauma, BY DEFAULT I can now sustain approximately 840 HPS, and with cooldowns and willingness to bankrupt my resource pool, I can burst somewhere in the neighborhood of 1190.

 

Even assuming DPS players saw a 20% DPS loss by stepping into PvP gear, they are still looking at being able to sustain a 1040-1200 DPS rate and that ignores a wealth of things like the fact that DPS classes are much more liable to frontload and burst in PvP, the fact that expertise scales twice as well for damage as it does for healing, and (god forbid) a Sentinel/Marauder applying a 20% healing debuff to a relevant target.

 

See what I'm getting at here? It doesn't matter if I'm guarded, left to my own devices, or focus fired to shreds, every case is a net loss in overall production for my team.

 

 

Like I said: Healers, Combat Medics in particular, needed to be reined in for PvP. I get that. I really do. I have no qualms with seeing balance issues where there were times popping cooldowns basically meant that three people could sink cooldowns into me and I'd probably still live to tell the tale. That wasn't fun for anyone, but the problems that have been introduced by their selected nerfs are out of hand. Applying changes to resources, output and scaling all at the time combines several small changes that would've done the trick into one massive one that steps beyond what's necessary.

 

 

Another important issue can be seen over in this thread: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=420225 a Commando in Rakata is now getting outclassed by both other healers despite wearing a full set of raid gear a tier up from them? I'd be mortified to see the output differences if they were all equivalently geared, because they're incredibly telling as is! This is not a good state of healer balance on the whole, and if it was done for sake of PvP, that's even worse.

 

Add to that, the utility nerf applied to Supercharge means that the new mantra is activate, run one combo, and immediately shut it down so that you can charge it up for that much needed ammo again. Our most interesting ability must now be TURNED OFF by the player so that they can keep up. Add I use that term loosely. As noted by their mention of it when discussing the medpac nerf, they wanted to make healing easier to measure. Well congratulations. Mission accomplished. What does it mean? We get shoehorned into one of maybe two "rotations" that are dictated by resources and not by party need. That's not interesting healing gameplay at all. The reason I play a healer is specifically to AVOID rotations so that I get to enjoy some level of reactionary gameplay where the thing I do next is dictated by the information I take in. Making the game simpler and less interesting as a means of bringing content in line so that they can defend some mystical "metrics" they haven't shared with the player community just isn't fun, and it's not conducive to enticing a player to play a healer.

[Ngaemond]

I can't speak to the OP's experience - I don't PVP - and maybe there are problems. I also was concerned by some of the announced changes in 1.2.

 

Last weekend I solo healed False Emperor HM. One player had excellent gear, one good, one weak. It got crazy at times but we made it. Maybe my 6th time healing a group run. Not so concerned any more.

Edited April 26, 2012 by Ngaemond
wording

[momokan]

it really does seem like you guys are lumping class-specific changes with expertise changes in general

 

the class specific combat medic stuff was warranted and necessary. the only thing that confuses me is the whopping 2 ammo cost on trauma probe.

 

dying quickly is a problem everyone faces these days - it's not a commando thing.

[lemur_cro]

healing in pve with comando is just fine, u can do any HM flashpoint and all HM operations, in pvp not so good, cuz of all overpowered DPS, and only way to survive a bit longer is having perma tank guarding you Edited April 27, 2012 by lemur_cro

[DweezillKagemand]

Yeah, you must be really bad - you had a healer with 800k healing and still lost.

[germil]

dying quickly is a problem everyone faces these days - it's not a commando thing.

 

It is a problem for healers especially. When I play as a PVP healer, I feel stuff (including myself) drop too quickly. When I respec pyro, I feel more powerful as a whole. Because decreased TTK mean actually less pressure on me, and I can kill people. Survivability was a strong point of commando CM PVP, and this concept seems irrelevant now, as you are nullify (no instantly dying, but you team contribution drops) with one competent DPS on you.

 

Simply put, I feel relatively weak and it is not fun to play as a CM in PVP to me now. Guard and teamplay protection? All classes can benefit from this, and it actually doesn't happen so much (low population in my server and guild => PUGs).

[Majestrix]

it really does seem like you guys are lumping class-specific changes with expertise changes in general

 

It seems to me "you guys" are ignoring the expertise changes. The whole point is that not only did they buff dps and nerf healing via expertise, but then they made class specific nerfs to healing as well...

 

That having been said. WZ healing is not as bad as what the forums seem to make it. However, it does require having teammates that are not complete *** hats. As a CM you will not survive 1v1 very long against anyone and you certainly have no chance of killing them. But if you can survive long enough for your teammates to show up or long enough to drag your opponents off the objective you can still "win" in the end.

[ErrantMercenary]

healing in pve with comando is just fine, u can do any HM flashpoint and all HM operations.

 

We've had this discussion on the Healer forums a hundred times, although it used to be about Operatives. "Viable" doesn't get you an invite. http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=420225 has logs on a Commando that outgears both an Operative and a Sage being put to shame for output.

 

We have to wear a tier better gear and we still don't compete is not "fine" by my book, that sounds a whole lot like "bench me before I become a liability"

Edited April 27, 2012 by ErrantMercenary

[Smashbrother]

 

lol I can't tell if you're semi-joking. It sounds like the rant of a child that doesn't understand game mechanics. The reason the team would bring a healer is to keep *THEM* alive. DPS classes are meant to kill the opposing team...healers are meant to protect yours. For a team to be most effective, they have a mix of both, along with a good tank. Thinking we weren't unkillable juggernauts pre-1.2 is similarly ridiculous...there's a reason every idiot that didn't know how to play CM was still at the top of the leaderboard. That shouldn't happen. In order to be at the top, you should be able to *PLAY* like the top.

 

If 1 dps can completely kill a healer than the team that brings 2 tanks and 6 dps will usually beat the team that brings 2 tanks, 2 healers, and 4 dps considering equal gear and skill.

 

1 dps vs. 1 healer should always be a stalemate.

Edited April 27, 2012 by Smashbrother

[Smashbrother]

The way you guys seem to suggest that DPS and Healer should be even makes it seem you would also believe a raid should be able to consist of a tank and all healers...which would be ludicrous. Every archetype serves a specific purpose, which finally they do.

 

Statements like this is why no one will take you seriously. You think that wanting 1 dps vs. 1 healer to be equal/statemate would lead to an ops made of healers and a tank. Just utterly ridiculous logic leaping.