iiell Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 Patch 1.2 Notes -- These changes are not limited to class abilities and skill trees, but also involve modifications to the underlying combat math (for example diminishing returns, additional augment availability, etc.), which has an impact on combat that is hard to capture in a list of patch notes. Since 1.2, I have noticed ALL damage in PVP seems to have increased. When I seen this in the patch notes, I figured BioWare made changes to game mechanics and it appears those changes have INCREASED damage in PVP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tremont Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 Yes at least in regards to Expertise. It used to be an across the board %, but now it appears that Damage Bonus went up, while Damage Reduction and Healing Bonus got nerfed. Someone correct me if I am wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordbishopX Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 Many matches where stalemates the dps could not out pace the heals and the damage numbers are insane since no one dies. Played a voidstar the lowest heals had like 450k...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khoraji Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 Patch 1.2 Notes -- Since 1.2, I have noticed ALL damage in PVP seems to have increased. When I seen this in the patch notes, I figured BioWare made changes to game mechanics and it appears those changes have INCREASED damage in PVP. According to http://mmo-mechanics.com/swtor/forums/Thread-SWTOR-formula-list?page=49 The day before 1.2 released, the only stat to get a change was expertise. This could have been changed for launch though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khoraji Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 Yes at least in regards to Expertise. It used to be an across the board %, but now it appears that Damage Bonus went up, while Damage Reduction and Healing Bonus got nerfed. Someone correct me if I am wrong. Healing stayed about the same. DPS got a very slight buff from expertise with 1.2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruuprect Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 Patch 1.2 Notes -- Since 1.2, I have noticed ALL damage in PVP seems to have increased. When I seen this in the patch notes, I figured BioWare made changes to game mechanics and it appears those changes have INCREASED damage in PVP. http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=423665 Here is a detailed explanation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fastpasta Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 So this ridiculous gib-fest is better? An unguarded healer can now be effectively taken out of the fight by 1 semi-competent dps. A good dps, or certain classes that will remain unnamed, can outright kill the healer in about 5 - 10 seconds. If pre-1.2 was not working as intended, then I can understand the desire to balance things. But there is no way anyone can tell me with a straight face that post-1.2 is the end product they were looking for. PvP has become an FPS style respawn fest...except that the respawns are gated...*yawn* More tweaks are needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khoraji Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 (edited) So this ridiculous gib-fest is better? An unguarded healer can now be effectively taken out of the fight by 1 semi-competent dps. A good dps, or certain classes that will remain unnamed, can outright kill the healer in about 5 - 10 seconds. If pre-1.2 was not working as intended, then I can understand the desire to balance things. But there is no way anyone can tell me with a straight face that post-1.2 is the end product they were looking for. PvP has become an FPS style respawn fest...except that the respawns are gated...*yawn* More tweaks are needed. 1 unguarded healer vs 1 decent DPS should = stalemate with the healer not really doing anything but keeping himself alive and maybe throwing a heal here and their to teamates. It is your tanks job to guard you, and your DPS job to kill the guy killing you. Although healing could use a slight increase, it is no where near as bad as some are making it out to be. Edited April 20, 2012 by Khoraji Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iiell Posted April 20, 2012 Author Share Posted April 20, 2012 http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=423665 Here is a detailed explanation. Thanks for linking this post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fastpasta Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 1 unguarded healer vs 1 decent DPS should = stalemate with the healer not really doing anything but keeping himself alive and maybe throwing a heal here and their to teamates. It is your tanks job to guard you, and your DPS job to kill the guy killing you. Although healing could use a slight increase, it is no where near as bad as some are making it out to be. The problem is that it is not a stalemate currently vs several dps classes. I am not interested in seeing any particular classes nerfed, so I prefer not to mention specifics, but any other full BM Sage healers out there know exactly what classes I am talking about. When I am being pressured by one of these classes 1 v 1, I will die. If I get a few lucky crits, it will be 10+ seconds. If they get a few lucky crits it will be under 8 seconds. I am talking about equally geared dps mind you. I have no real way to measure my opponent's skill level other than how effectively he is countering my healing, properly using interrupts etc, but we have come to a point right now with PvP Sage healing that I simply can't counter the burst damage capability of several classes, and that is a problem. I agree that the general noise level about healing may be a tad high atm, but you have to admit that TTK needs to be looked at by BW. Their data has to be showing a much, much lower TTK post patch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wulvr Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 1 unguarded healer vs 1 decent DPS should = stalemate with the healer not really doing anything but keeping himself alive and maybe throwing a heal here and their to teamates. It is your tanks job to guard you, and your DPS job to kill the guy killing you. Although healing could use a slight increase, it is no where near as bad as some are making it out to be. Let me fix this for you: 1 unguarded scoundrel/commando healer vs average DPS = stalemate (healer will be able to self heal enough to make the DPS focus elsewhere unless they get reinforcements) 1 unguarded sage vs average DPS = DPS wins (Healer can't self heal over DPS and cannot drop heals elsewhere as they need to cc/LoS/ and run away or they will die...deliverance can't be cast and should be removed from the game and rejuvenate will not be able to outheal DPS...Benevolence and Healing Trance will be interrupted obviously and cannot be used while moving so ur kite etc. is hampered) 1 unguarded scoundrel/commando healer vs descent DPS = Scoundrel wins (instants/hots) /commando loses 1 unguarded sage vs Descent DPS = DPS wins rather quickly (I am pretty good at prolonging this by LoS and CC Kite etc but you can't get off enough heals to make a diff for teamates and forget it if its 1v2...maybe enough to help with an objective as the focus is on you) I don't know if buffing healing or goingto pre 1.2 will help but PvP is a DPS game now which is why most of the Healers re-role or go DPS spec...especially on limited pop servers like mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wulvr Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 The problem is that it is not a stalemate currently vs several dps classes. I am not interested in seeing any particular classes nerfed, so I prefer not to mention specifics, but any other full BM Sage healers out there know exactly what classes I am talking about. When I am being pressured by one of these classes 1 v 1, I will die. If I get a few lucky crits, it will be 10+ seconds. If they get a few lucky crits it will be under 8 seconds. I am talking about equally geared dps mind you. I have no real way to measure my opponent's skill level other than how effectively he is countering my healing, properly using interrupts etc, but we have come to a point right now with PvP Sage healing that I simply can't counter the burst damage capability of several classes, and that is a problem. I agree that the general noise level about healing may be a tad high atm, but you have to admit that TTK needs to be looked at by BW. Their data has to be showing a much, much lower TTK post patch. So friggin true, All the Imps roled warriors or bounty hunters on my server....BM sage healing is a joke now. Not much I can do because pop on server is so low they know me and know I have to be removed ASAP. I'm getting great at CC/LoS/ and Kiteing to prolong death, but I played a VS where I healed for 450k (This is a lot now when you can't use NS like pre 1.2 and deliverance is uncastable) and they had no healer at all just stacked marauder juggs and completely ***** us. We only got through one door. Thinking about going to another serve but I'll lose legacy and have to grind to BM again (was torture when you get so few ques). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fexhie Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 (edited) Let me fix this for you: 1 unguarded scoundrel/commando healer vs average DPS = stalemate (healer will be able to self heal enough to make the DPS focus elsewhere unless they get reinforcements) 1 unguarded sage vs average DPS = DPS wins (Healer can't self heal over DPS and cannot drop heals elsewhere as they need to cc/LoS/ and run away or they will die...deliverance can't be cast and should be removed from the game and rejuvenate will not be able to outheal DPS...Benevolence and Healing Trance will be interrupted obviously and cannot be used while moving so ur kite etc. is hampered) 1 unguarded scoundrel/commando healer vs descent DPS = Scoundrel wins (instants/hots) /commando loses 1 unguarded sage vs Descent DPS = DPS wins rather quickly (I am pretty good at prolonging this by LoS and CC Kite etc but you can't get off enough heals to make a diff for teamates and forget it if its 1v2...maybe enough to help with an objective as the focus is on you) I don't know if buffing healing or goingto pre 1.2 will help but PvP is a DPS game now which is why most of the Healers re-role or go DPS spec...especially on limited pop servers like mine. 1.Any mando/BH healer that dies to 1 dps no matter how good they are, are terrible at their class. Mando/BH are by far the best at keeping themselves alive out of the three healers. 2.Sc/Op can be killed by a well played dps pretty easy. You are way over estimating the value of our hots. If we get a good string of procs off our hots and are fighting melee and therefor able to use melee abilites to help proc upper hand then we can usually kill/outlast a single dps. However we are by far the easiest of the three classes to keep interupted. We have 1 heal onlly outside of hots and that 1 heal can be interupted with a 100 percent rate by most dps outside of BH/Mando. That is the only heal we have that can actually counter any good damage dealer. Hots and emergency medpack don't cut it unless we are kiting and using los. 3.Sc/Op have 3 cc a close range aoe mez, a melee stun, and a single target snare. They have 1 escape button and thats an in combat stealth that almost never works. Sorc/Sage have mez snare stun knockback out the wazoo, they have a fire and forget ground target aoe that heals min of 2x the targets of the scoundrel aoe and heals for 2x as much. They have a speed boost, they can pull other players in huttball, they have super absorb shields. 4. 2 Sorc/Sage can pretty much lock any dps down by simply both fireing rocks or chain lightning. 2x of that on a target makes them practically rooted with absolutely no way to counter it. 5. Sages wear cloth armor, that is why they have so many usefull tools. It is also why they get owned, not b/c they don't have good heals and cc. Edited April 20, 2012 by Fexhie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ancen Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 Let me fix this for you: I don't know if buffing healing or goingto pre 1.2 will help but PvP is a DPS game now which is why most of the Healers re-role or go DPS spec...especially on limited pop servers like mine. Wrong. Good healers still rock in 1.2. Bad healers still suck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khoraji Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 1.Any mando/BH healer that dies to 1 dps no matter how good they are, are terrible at their class. Mando/BH are by far the best at keeping themselves alive out of the three healers. This.. I am a merc healer and I still piss alot of people off laughing in their face as they beat on me. Sorc/Sage I dont know enough about, they need some more survivability I assume. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fastpasta Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 wrong. Good healers who don't wear cloth still rock in 1.2. Bad healers still suck. ftfy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khoraji Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 ftfy. Most sorc healers I know are doing terrible now. The only sorc healer in my guild is doing good though. Constantly gets 500k+ healing, not sure what he is doing different than the others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fastpasta Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 This.. I am a merc healer and I still piss alot of people off laughing in their face as they beat on me. Sorc/Sage I dont know enough about, they need some more survivability I assume. Survivability is a huge issue for Sage/Sorc post 1.2 in PvP. However, given our above average utility tool-set, it is not a simple fix. The problem is that we can't use out escape/lockdown utilities while we are stunned, and we are losing minimum 50% of our health during that first stun. So we are forced to either eat the 8 seconds break on damage stun that the dps class is opening with and not heal our team, or we trinket that and eat the 4 second stun while we lose 1/2 our health. Don't get me wrong, I am sure I am making mistakes at times while I play as well, I am no uber-skilled pvper. However, I am an above average pvp healer who knows how to use the tools we have vs the specific dps classes that will come against me in any given situation, and I am flat out struggling to survive most confrontations with equally geared dps players. I can't imagine that was the design philosophy/goal here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fungihoujo Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 1 unguarded healer vs 1 decent DPS should = stalemate with the healer not really doing anything but keeping himself alive and maybe throwing a heal here and their to teamates. It is your tanks job to guard you, and your DPS job to kill the guy killing you. Although healing could use a slight increase, it is no where near as bad as some are making it out to be. Yes it is- there's zero self sufficiency as a healer. A marauder can still kill people in 5 seconds whether they're alone or in a group- yet a healer needs to have a tank backing them up to even be viable? No- this 'some classes count as two classes by themselves' bs has to stop- marauders need to be nerfed extremely hard to be even close to balanced with other classes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fastpasta Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 Most sorc healers I know are doing terrible now. The only sorc healer in my guild is doing good though. Constantly gets 500k+ healing, not sure what he is doing different than the others. I am sure he is a competent player if he is getting 500k heals even occasionally in WZ's. I will usually be in the 350 - 550 range somewhere depending on the WZ and the situation. But that really isn't the point to healing. If 50% of that 400k is spent healing just me, how did that help my team? By taking 1 dps player out of the mix occasionally between respawns? I can do that on a dps toon. Healers in WZ's are supposed to mean the difference between holding a node when relatively equal opposition shows up, or losing it. Right now, if 1 am guarding a node with 2 other players (be it dps or tank it doesn't really matter) and 2 dps show up, we will likely lose the node. If 3 dps show up, we will lose it for sure because I will be dead in under 5 seconds and it is 3 v 2 from there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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