Why do fresh 50's have the same gear as me

[dazednconfuzed]

A metal horseshoe in the glove is cheating. Exploiting a weakness of your enemy is not necessarily cheating. You are purposely confusing the 2 to try to prove your point and you are still wrong.

 

The "exploits" that were removed in COD like the grenade toss at the begining of a sab match was removed because bads couldn't stop running into the same spot to die repeatedly. It wasn't cheating. It was taking advantage of terrible players. Unfortunately there are more terrible players than their are good players. So for the sake of the community they removed it.

 

'Throwing a grenade' regardless of the target and number of victims is not an exploit. I'd actually be fine with that example. It's sensible gameplay. Shooting through a wall is an exploit and is cheating. You shouldn't be able to do that in the game, so that fact that you can is the thing you exploit.

[DarkDruidSS]

Quite possibly correct about my definition of the word competitive. But, to take a real world sports example... Boxing.

 

The competition is to see which person has the better skill, stamina and boxing technique. That is the competition. It isn't simply about who is left standing at the end, although I'll fully admit that "winning" the match is a big part of it.

 

So, we get into the boxing ring. Very quickly you have the advantage. Why? Because you have an 'exploit'. You have a metal horseshoe in your glove. It suddenly is no longer about skill, stamina and technique. It is just about how many times you can hit me with a piece of metal before I drop. Where is the contest in it? Sure, you 'won' the match, but you didn't do it through skill, you did it by cheating.

 

Being clever and outthinking your opponent is a good way to win. Using exploits that aren't meant to be there isn't because it doesn't demonstrate the skill required to get a true victory. I'd quite like to see what would happen during a CoD match where all these exploits were removed, so that it did come down to just skill on skill. I'd still totally have my *** handed to me, since I suck whenever someone gets close to me (Sniping FTW lol), but it would be a better match because it is more honest.

 

Actually to further prove my point we will stick to boxing. So unlike your cheat... which is not an exploit.... we will take a real life boxing exploit. Ever heard of the term "glass jaw"? Are you going to tell me that in a boxing tournament that if you know your opponent has a "glass jaw" that you will purposely not use that knowledge to your advantage? No you would, because it's still fair to exploit their weakness and it gets you the win.

[Jederix]

PvE'rs who suck at PvP coming in telling true PvP'ers how our aspect of the game should be ran. Go back to PvE'ing. You dont see us suggesting that you should have no gear progression or content to work towards. You earn what you get. If you cant earn the proper gear, then youre either A) not good enough and would lose even in your "fair fight" dream world or B) dont play enough and SHOULDNT have the same gear as someone who plays 10x more than you.

 

-fuzz

 

Except, you aren't a PvPer either. Real PvPers are after a skill based fight where the only thing that matters is skill. Anyone crying about gear and progression in PvP have no place in PvP, if you ask me.

[DarkDruidSS]

'Throwing a grenade' regardless of the target and number of victims is not an exploit. I'd actually be fine with that example. It's sensible gameplay. Shooting through a wall is an exploit and is cheating. You shouldn't be able to do that in the game, so that fact that you can is the thing you exploit.

 

IN COD YOU CAN SHOOT THROUGH WALLS... shhhh don't tell anyone. THAT IS NOT A CHEAT.

 

Now using an aimbot to get 100% accuracy and shoot everyone through every wall at any distance is a cheat. That is different.

[CrazyOldMystic]

To the op you are full of it! I payed for a full set of recruit pvp gear to get started, the gear is good starter pvp gear, been working on my battlemaster gear for a long time now. Guess what its been MORE THEN THREE DAYS!. What planet are you living on lol. That battlemaster gear is not cheap it takes allot of time to get enough warzone comms to get the full set. By full set I mean relics, earpiece, implants, weapon, and armor.

 

Point two when new pvp gear is released in ANY mmo, the older pvp gear is lowered in requirements to get it. The battle master gear prior to 1.2 was the main gear. Now its the number two gear to get in pvp. Before you start bashing the pvp gear system perhaps you should do some research on how much time it takes to get it, and how mmos deal with pvp gear.

[fuzzDONTEVENTRIP]

To an extent I can agree with this, but there really is no fun being a fresh lvl 50 with no real PvP gear walking into a warzone. All that happens is you repeatedly get your *** handed to you by better geared players, and that just puts people off continuing to PvP.

 

In time that leads to fewer people doing PvP, and the PvP side to the game going downhill.

 

Keeping things more balanced between new PvP'ers and old PvP'ers not only provides for more competition in a match (and more fun), but is less likely to drive away players who simply can't be arsed with everyone facerolling over them while they try to get some gear so they have a marginal chance.

 

I know what youre saying because as a first time MMO player, i experienced this frustration a month ago. I took my beatings, but kept on trucking. Its hard, i know it is, but to expect something without earning it when other people went through the same process as you (generalization), but harder (comparing to 1.2 PvP progression now) is selfish in my opinion. Youre a paying customer, but so am i. Your $15 = my $15.

 

I believe BW has been trying to compensate new PvPers with the new 1.2 system. I really dont know how much easier they can make it besides making it free,

 

-fuzz

[Superdonk]

With respect, then it sounds like you are burnt out on MMO's. There are still many people who like the grind (for whatever it is) and want to continue doing so.

 

Truthfully, I suppose it comes down to how one defines fun, and no one will be able to agree or disagree on it. For me, if pvp becomes too simple, like Gears of War or Halo (I exclude COD, as they seem to have a level progression in that now.) then I wonder why I don't go play one of those games. I believe the MMO genre is generally for those who want to commit some time and thought to their game

 

But that is my definition of fun, and I won't assume it's everyone's.

 

You're probably right. I'm not burnt out of MMO's gameplay, I'm just burned out of everything else about MMO's, namely the fetch and kill questing and the gear grind.

 

When your back to alt-tabing to play TF2 or forum PVP, it's time to move on.

[richardya]

Oh no, someone has 2% more HP then me so I lose every game. So unfair.

 

This ^

[dazednconfuzed]

To answer your COD question (my team was nationally ranked in COD4 and BO so i have some experience) they made a pro-mod which disabled all but certain perks, guns and attachments. Everyone had the same gear available to them and each team was limited to 1 sniper. Even after that was in place, we would still find roofs to jump on, roofs to jump off (cod4 mp_crash 3 story building, remember it?) and not take any damage at all. Or jump over a wall that you couldnt jump over. All of that was legal because it was available to both teams and ALL players.

 

Yes but thats the real world. With league rules and parameters. There are many restrictions involved. You cant compare any of that to competing in a video game. Your environment is designed by other humans, in a virtual world. There are going to be flaws about your environment that you can use to benefit you and your team. What we, who have more time on our hands, have access to, so do people with less time on their hands. It will just take them longer to obtain.

 

-fuzz

 

Actually, I never really got into CoD, so I have no idea what you mean by 'cod4 mp_crash 3 story building', sorry.

 

And jumping over a wall that you can't jump over is actually impossible. If you can find a way over it, then kudos to you, you just jumped over a wall you could jump over. You may have needed to climb up a collection of very unlikely items to get there, but get there you could. That is clever playing, not exploiting.

 

And sure, all players technically have access to it, but there will be a big difference in ability between a newcomer to that map, and someone who has played on that map repeatedly over the past year, or whatever. Just because you know all the little tricks to win, doesn't mean everyone does.

 

I think this is a bit of a problem in most sports these days... No sense of sportsmanship.

[fuzzDONTEVENTRIP]

Except, you aren't a PvPer either. Real PvPers are after a skill based fight where the only thing that matters is skill. Anyone crying about gear and progression in PvP have no place in PvP, if you ask me.

 

Damn, i guess im not

 

-fuzz

[MinguesDew]

PvP gear HAS to become easier to get as a game ages otherwise new players a) get steamrolled way too fast and cry nerf all over the forums b) are the recipients of open hostility from teammates who know they are severely handicapped by having them around.

 

Not speeding up PvP gear acquisition would be like buffing the entry level PvE content to the point that new players don't get invited to groups and can't complete content in a group of new players.

 

Narrowing the gap in PvP gear stats and time invested is a smart move for the overall health of the game, you still have your gear, don't worry about what the other guy has. You're like the first bratty toddler to the toy box, thinking all the toys are yours because you got there first, grow up.

[fuzzDONTEVENTRIP]

And sure, all players technically have access to it, but there will be a big difference in ability between a newcomer to that map, and someone who has played on that map repeatedly over the past year, or whatever. Just because you know all the little tricks to win, doesn't mean everyone does.

 

I think this is a bit of a problem in most sports these days... No sense of sportsmanship.

 

Well thats similar to playing SWTOR. You play more and more and have access to better gear just like in COD you play more and more and have more knowledge of different jumps, spams, nade spots, then new people do. Thats just part of gaming. With time you learn the game and get rewarded with it whether its knowledge of maps (like Civil War, jumping over the wall from left to mid (all though this is a crummy example)) or just getting WZ comms

 

-fuzz

[dazednconfuzed]

IN COD YOU CAN SHOOT THROUGH WALLS... shhhh don't tell anyone. THAT IS NOT A CHEAT.

 

Now using an aimbot to get 100% accuracy and shoot everyone through every wall at any distance is a cheat. That is different.

 

You are not supposed to be able to shoot through walls though. That is why it is an exploit and cheating.

 

As for your 'glass jaw' analogy, that isn't really exploiting anything. That is a natural weakness your opponent has. By all means take advantage of it. Kind of like the grenades you mentioned. Blowing up a bunch of people because they repeatedly run into your greandes isn't exploiting anything. That is taking advantage of a weak opponent.

 

I suppose you could liken it to new level 50s who don't have the gear yet. Their lack of gear is their glass jaw. Still, it sucks to be them and die repeatedly simply because someone has better gear than they do.

[fuzzDONTEVENTRIP]

You are not supposed to be able to shoot through walls though. That is why it is an exploit and cheating.

 

Actually its not cheating. Cheating is being able to SEE through the walls. Just shooting at it and killing them just takes knowledge of the game. Using your sound to your advantage and map awareness. The person on the opposite side of the wall has just as much access to shoot you as you do him because the wall doesnt discrimnate "hey youre a terrorist, youre not allowed to shoot through me but hey, counter-terrorist, GO FOR IT!". Being able to see through walls provides a definitive advantage for one player while placing the other player(s) at an obvious disadvantage

 

-fuzz

[DarkDruidSS]

You are not supposed to be able to shoot through walls though. That is why it is an exploit and cheating.

 

As for your 'glass jaw' analogy, that isn't really exploiting anything. That is a natural weakness your opponent has. By all means take advantage of it. Kind of like the grenades you mentioned. Blowing up a bunch of people because they repeatedly run into your greandes isn't exploiting anything. That is taking advantage of a weak opponent.

 

I suppose you could liken it to new level 50s who don't have the gear yet. Their lack of gear is their glass jaw. Still, it sucks to be them and die repeatedly simply because someone has better gear than they do.

 

I'm sorry. You admitted that you didn't get into COD much, so i will be easy on you. Load any game after COD3... so Modern Warfare and up to current . You can infact shoot through walls. Specific walls. You can even unlock bullets that penetrate walls better called Full Metal Jackets... FMJs. Most walls can be penetrated with FMJs.

 

Shooting through walls in a known camper location is smart, not cheating. Fuzz was talking about exploiting campers that suck because that is all they can do... not cheating.

Edited April 19, 2012 by DarkDruidSS

[dazednconfuzed]

I'm sorry. You admitted that you didn't get into COD much, so i will be easy on you. Load any game after COD3... so Modern Warfare and up to current . You can infact shoot through walls. Specific walls. You can even unlock bullets that penetrate walls better called Full Metal Jackets... FMJs. Most calls can be penetrated with FMJs.

 

Shooting through walls in a known camper location is smart, not cheating. Fuzz was talking about exploiting campers that suck because that is all they can do... not cheating.

 

Seriously??? And this is being promoted as actual intended gameplay??? You may as well just remove the walls entirely then. They seem to serve no purpose.

[DarkDruidSS]

Seriously??? And this is being promoted as actual intended gameplay??? You may as well just remove the walls entirely then. They seem to serve no purpose.

 

You must not play FPS much. You can shoot through and even demolish walls in Battlefield Bad Company up till the current game Battlefield 3. Actually the new BF3 maps are office type maps with sheet rock that blows away like real life exposing the metals girders behind it.

 

You could also shoot through walls in Rainbow Six and Counter Strike. It's not a new concept.

Edited April 19, 2012 by DarkDruidSS

[richardya]

Except, you aren't a PvPer either. Real PvPers are after a skill based fight where the only thing that matters is skill. Anyone crying about gear and progression in PvP have no place in PvP, if you ask me.

 

Yea, and we should make all classes have the same exact abilities too. If someone has 2% more HP and you lose to him, blame the gear and call yourself a purist. Wake up, it is an MMO. If you want people to log in for months and years you need progression.

[Superdonk]

Yea, and we should make all classes have the same exact abilities too. If someone has 2% more HP and you lose to him, blame the gear and call yourself a purist. Wake up, it is an MMO. If you want people to log in for months and years you need progression.

 

Where are you getting this 2% HP stat. Gear does alot more than boost HP. Do you even play this game?

[Syylara]

I know what youre saying because as a first time MMO player, i experienced this frustration a month ago. I took my beatings, but kept on trucking. Its hard, i know it is, but to expect something without earning it when other people went through the same process as you (generalization), but harder (comparing to 1.2 PvP progression now) is selfish in my opinion. Youre a paying customer, but so am i. Your $15 = my $15.

 

I believe BW has been trying to compensate new PvPers with the new 1.2 system. I really dont know how much easier they can make it besides making it free,

 

-fuzz

 

With the introduction of 1.2 those in BM gear were given an increase in their performance capabilities relative to the lower tiers without any additional work required at all.

 

BM now represents the middle of 3 tiers of PvP gear. You could achieve a piece of Champion gear (the previous middle tier) every 2-3 days with about a 2 hour daily investment if you were on a decently populated server (no more than 10 minute queues, 15 minute matches, 50% win rate). The same holds true for BM gear now.

 

Meanwhile, a new top tier has been added for those, like yourself, who prefer to spend larger chunks of time to achieve.

 

You tell others that time=performance increases is the way of MMOs. What you seem to be missing is that new tiers being released=older tiers being easier to get is also a frequently experienced reality of MMOs, as well.

 

Overall, the middle and top tiers of gear require roughly the same time commitment as they did previously. Therefore the basic pace of progression has remained static.

 

Also, the gaps have widened, as well.

 

Pre-1.2:

http://dulfy.net/2012/02/20/useful-warzonepvp-info-statistics-3/

 

Centurion - ~9.7%

Champion- ~12% (2.3% gain)

Battlemaster- ~12.6% (0.6% gain)

 

Post 1.2:

http://dulfy.net/2012/03/22/pvp-gearing-in-1-2/

 

Centurion- ~10.5% (obsolete)

Champion- ~14% (obsolete)

Recruit- ~18.2%

Battlemaster- ~22.2% (4% gain)

War Hero- ~24% (1.8% gain)

Edited April 19, 2012 by Syylara

[Shlamorel]

I have 2 War Hero pieces already and I support fresh 50's having equal gear. I'm confident enough in my skills to overcome their rotations... the gear is merely an aesthetic thing for me, personally.

[DarkDruidSS]

With the introduction of 1.2 those in BM gear were given an increase in their performance capabilities relative to the lower tiers without any additional work required at all.

 

BM now represents the middle of 3 tiers of PvP gear. You could achieve a piece of Champion gear (the previous middle tier) every 2-3 days with about a 2 hour daily investment if you were on a decently populated server (no more than 10 minute queues, 15 minute matches, 50% win rate). The same holds true for BM gear now.

 

Meanwhile, a new top tier has been added for those, like yourself, who prefer to spend larger chunks of time to achieve.

 

You tell others that time=performance increases is the way of MMOs. What you seem to be missing is that new tiers being released=older tiers being easier to get is also a frequently experienced reality of MMOs, as well.

 

Overall, the middle and top tiers of gear require roughly the same time commitment as they did previously. Therefore the basic pace of progression has remained static.

 

The progression for recruit to BM is quick. Like the above posted. The progression from BM to WH will take considerably longer. People running the maths said prior to today's patch it would take roughly 350 hours played time to get full WH set. I did a /played on my Sin and I only have 178 hours... so that is twice the time it took to get to 50 and get some pvp gear at 50 before 1.2.

 

War Hero is still a vast time sink to get the full set. The offset to this is that the difference between BM gear and War Hero is smaller than the difference from Champion to Battlemaster used to be.

[fuzzDONTEVENTRIP]

With the introduction of 1.2 those in BM gear were given an increase in their performance capabilities relative to the lower tiers without any additional work required at all.

 

BM now represents the middle of 3 tiers of PvP gear. You could achieve a piece of Champion gear (the previous middle tier) every 2-3 days with about a 2 hour daily investment if you were on a decently populated server (no more than 10 minute queues, 15 minute matches, 50% win rate). The same holds true for BM gear now.

 

Meanwhile, a new top tier has been added for those, like yourself, who prefer to spend larger chunks of time to achieve.

 

You tell others that time=performance increases is the way of MMOs. What you seem to be missing is that new tiers being released=older tiers being easier to get is also a frequently experienced reality of MMOs, as well.

 

Overall, the middle and top tiers of gear require roughly the same time commitment as they did previously. Therefore the basic pace of progression has remained static.

 

Yes, i am in favor of this progression. It gives something for the BM's to strive for (while taking awhile to achieve) and it gives the fresher 50s better chance at progressing. To get WH you have to do the same thing as the people trying to get BM. You both get the same currency (WZ comms), but for people trying to get WH, WZ comms = 1/3 less valuable as WZ comms that are being used for BM. The fact that BM is also about 1/3 as expensive as WH gear also helps. So people who want WH arent doing anything different than the people trying to get BM, but we have to work 9x as hard/longer to get our piece (which i think is fair).

 

If WH equaling 7-9x longer/harder to get then BM isnt fair, then i dont know how else you could try and close the gap any quicker

 

-fuzz

Edited April 19, 2012 by fuzzDONTEVENTRIP

[DarkDruidSS]

Syylara proved me wrong on the stats thing. Thanks. haha.

[Syylara]

The progression for recruit to BM is quick. Like the above posted. The progression from BM to WH will take considerably longer. People running the maths said prior to today's patch it would take roughly 350 hours played time to get full WH set. I did a /played on my Sin and I only have 178 hours... so that is twice the time it took to get to 50 and get some pvp gear at 50 before 1.2.

 

War Hero is still a vast time sink to get the full set. The offset to this is that the difference between BM gear and War Hero is smaller than the difference from Champion to Battlemaster used to be.

 

Define "quick" as this is an entirely subjective term.

 

As I demonstrated, it is basically the exact same pace to achieve BM now as it took to achieve Champion before and both were the middle of 3 tiers in their respective settings.

 

Also, the advantage your BM gear has over recruit gear is greater than the advantage it was giving you over Champion gear prior to 1.2. (4% increase rather than 0.6%, a significant improvement). You did not have to put in any additional time to receive that 3.4% increase in performance, it was handed to you over night in a patch.