What is wrong with Snipers?

[thekidpow]

A well played sniper is very sturdy.

 

Holy hell - YES. Even if you get bursted down to below 50% health, if you use the defensive abilities correctly, you can 1v1 anyone.

 

Truth is this is a really fun class. Great pve story and a medal monster in pvp. I, however, hope more people continue to think its a gimped class so BW leaves us alone.

[thekidpow]

Sniper DPS with 1.2 is quite average. Marodeurs, Mercenaries etc. do more damage, are much more mobile and have no problems with cover. And we can only do damage, we can't heal or tank like other classes that are on par with us or far over that.

.

 

Then why am I constantly top 3 (most often tops overall) in WZ DPS?

 

ENG spec also allows you a number of DoTs that are castable while mobile. If you drop the DoTs and then root your opponent while backing up, you can get plenty of distance to drop to cover for quick burst damage.

 

The learning curve on sniper is steep, but once you get it, the class is a machine.

[LovarBoy]

Holy hell - YES. Even if you get bursted down to below 50% health, if you use the defensive abilities correctly, you can 1v1 anyone.

 

Truth is this is a really fun class. Great pve story and a medal monster in pvp. I, however, hope more people continue to think its a gimped class so BW leaves us alone.

 

 

In comparison to every other class the Sniper is a "gimped" class. It seems to, that development of Sniper's stopped at 75% of completion. I can't see any other excuse for that.

 

The talent trees are full of illogical talents, there is no symbiosis between them and the cover mechanic is weird and bugged.

 

Just compare well working talent trees ( for example Pyrotech PowerTech or Arsenal Mercenary ) with our talent trees. Lethality is ok, but Engineer and MM? It's just a collection of different and mostly useless talents with no harmony in there. What's the main "casted" skill as an Engineer - Ambush? Snipe? SoS? Or is it the instant shot after 1.2?

 

 

 

Then why am I constantly top 3 (most often tops overall) in WZ DPS?

 

ENG spec also allows you a number of DoTs that are castable while mobile. If you drop the DoTs and then root your opponent while backing up, you can get plenty of distance to drop to cover for quick burst damage.

 

The learning curve on sniper is steep, but once you get it, the class is a machine.

 

 

In operations? No Marodeurs / Mercenaries in your op?

 

Damage in WZ is easily to get. Orbital Strike, as you said the AoE probe etc. WZ damage is not relevant ( I think ).

Edited April 18, 2012 by LovarBoy

[thekidpow]

In comparison to every other class the Sniper is a "gimped" class. The talent trees are full of illogical talents, there is no symbiosis between them and the cover mechanic is weird and bugged.

 

Just compare well working talent trees ( for example Pyrotech PowerTech or Arsenal Mercenary ) with our talent trees. Lethality is ok, but Engineer and MM? It's just a collection of differend and mostly useless talents with no harmony in there.

 

I disagree, but thats pretty obvious by now.

 

 

In operations? No Marodeurs / Mercenaries in your op?

 

Damage in WZ is easily to get. Orbital Strike, as you said the AoE probe etc. WZ damage is not relevant ( I think ).

 

I'm level 35. No Orbital Strike. How is WZ damage not relevant?

 

Damage players -> kill players -> help team -> team wins -> XP, comms, creds, glory, loose women

[thekidpow]

Also, in PvE...if I die, its because I did something stupid or wasn't paying attention. Not a deficit in class capability.

 

Yes Kaliyo is squishy as hell versus elite cons, but if she dies, the con is already in Takedown range with all my defensive CDs up and ready to rock.

[LovarBoy]

I disagree, but thats pretty obvious by now.

 

I'm level 35. No Orbital Strike. How is WZ damage not relevant?

 

Damage players -> kill players -> help team -> team wins -> XP, comms, creds, glory, loose women

 

 

It is easy to do high amounts of damage. And it really depends on your team. I just got the most damage in WZ's with level 15, but that was for sure not only my "achievement".

 

 

I talk about DPS in operations, PvP is different and much more "difficult". Doing damage is not everything, help the mates, kill the healers etc.

 

 

 

 

Also, in PvE...if I die, its because I did something stupid or wasn't paying attention. Not a deficit in class capability.

 

Yes Kaliyo is squishy as hell versus elite cons, but if she dies, the con is already in Takedown range with all my defensive CDs up and ready to rock.

 

 

I always compare classes. For sure, soloing as a Sniper is okay. But if you played other classes and saw how easily H2/H4 quests are manageable and how fast you can go from mob group to mob group without having a real downtime, you realize this giant gap.

 

I don't know when my companion with my Mercenary died last ( oh yes it was the world boss at Taris - I did not know what the Jedi corpse is for and yes... Mako died ), Kaliyo is dying far too often.

 

The relation is not working. The relation between pure DPS and "hybrid" classes, between pure DPS and survavibility.

 

Why has the Mercenary ( BH ) a Healer as the first and most useful companion? Why has the Mercenary a 60 sec CC that is not really necessary despite having a really good amount of defensive skills? That's what is a bit illogical. A Sniper gets his healer at Taris. We have no real CC, we have no heavy armor, no heals etc. - despite lacking everything of these, we have no CC as well. It's a bit odd.

Edited April 18, 2012 by LovarBoy

[thekidpow]

It is easy to do high amounts of damage. And it really depends on your team. I just got the most damage in WZ's with level 15, but that was for sure not only my "achievement".

 

 

I talk about DPS in operations, PvP is different and much more "difficult". Doing damage is not everything, help the mates, kill the healers etc.

 

I mean...your post that I originally responded to was about sniper effectiveness. This is a DPS class. The role we play is unleashing the fires of hell on our opposition. It goes without saying that you have to do all of the necessary things to help win the match, but to me and to a handful of other snipers I see on my server (The Corsair), when played right its the best DPS class in 9/10 WZ.

 

 

I always compare classes. For sure, soloing as a Sniper is okay. But if you played other classes and saw how easily H2/H4 quests are manageable and how fast you can go from mob group to mob group without having a real downtime, you realize this giant gap.

 

I don't know when my companion with my Mercenary died last ( oh yes it was the world boss at Taris - I did not know what the Jedi corpse is for and yes... Mako died ), Kaliyo is dying far too often.

 

The relation is not working. The relation between pure DPS and "hybrid" classes, between pure DPS and survavibility.

 

I compare it to my lvl 35 Sentinel and I die way less often on my sniper.

[thekidpow]

Seems like this is the most YMMV class in the game.

[metaldragen]

I don't think there's necessarily anything "wrong" with Snipers, but I will agree with what a lot of others have said. Lore-wise, there's not much to grab on to, and you say Star Wars to someone and they think glowstick and then lightning.

 

My main is a 50 Sniper in full Rakata. I played a hunter in that other game for years. Ranged DPS suits my play style and I knew from the first announcement that my first toon was going to be an Agent.

 

As a sniper, soloing and leveling is hard. This is a difficult class to play well. I leveled as MM. Late-game (past 40), leveling gets much more difficult, but I think it's good that it does - it prepares you and forces you to learn your class even better so that you are prepared for endgame.

 

I played MM since level 10. My guild has cleared 5/5 HM EV and KP and 5/5 NMM EV and KP. Yes, snipers are less mobile, but if you know the class, your "uptime" is low. Fact of the matter is that most class's major DPS abilities are channeled or have cast times, which makes them immobile as well. The only disadvantage we really have is an extra button to get into cover before we can use our main abilities (as MM).

 

Since 1.2, my guild went into EC on SM to get a feel for the fights. We cleared the first boss on the first night and cleared the second last night. I've been experimenting with specs since 1.2 came out. I ran MM for the first boss last week and switched to Lethality for this week (after reset). Running logs and using MOX's parser on my desktop to monitor live, I'm finding that Lethality is giving me a good bump in overall DPS (+100-150 over MM) on boss fights and a huge bump on trash (+300-500). The big advantage that Lethality has is more mobility. Your poison effects and their corresponding complementary skills (Cull and Weakening Blast) don't require cover to use which makes us much better able to handle moving during fights. Also, the addition of more DOTs that can tick more often and for more with talents helps keep our sustained DPS up during transitions and movement.

 

I will say that, in my opinion, Lethality is not a good leveling spec however. It requires too much setup before the DPS starts really ticking. You're looking at 3 GCD before you can Cull (1 to apply WB, 1 for CG, 1 for CD) to maximize your DPS. By the time you've done that on one mob, as a MM, you should have 1 down and a second to half health (SoS, Snipe, FT, should take down a standard mob in 2 GCD plus a 2.5 sec channel and get you setup with a Reactive Shot Ambush for the next mob - down to a 1.4 sec cast).

 

Edit:

For reference I have a 50 Mercenary (Bodyguard) and a 50 Juggernaut (Immortal) also. While the Sniper is definitely the most difficult class to play well (although an Immortal Jug can be tough too), it's still my favorite and my main toon.

Edited April 18, 2012 by metaldragen

[Deathmvp]

I for one like the class alot but it does feel like it is missing things. For one thing I do feel that the sniper should have a inv ability. Maby a talent so that when entrench and using ambush your are Inv for the short casting time. This would up the surviablity as it would break cast times and stuff but other players would know they are there so it would not be as good of a inv as the other classes.

[FalcoLombardi]

I love my Gunslinger. Can do some massive damage as Sabotuer with all the high damage DoTs, and does decent AoE because you can increase your aoe surge by 30%

[MaxGluteus]

Other than Kaliyo dying too easily or not holding aggro well I don't have an issue in PvE. And even that can be managed. Yes, it is nearly impossible to do 2man quests, but then again, I dont really care for them-when I care I will find a partner to do them with.

 

In PvP those playing sniper just have to remember three basic things:

1. You are not a tank.

2. You cannot solo several players at once but you can still dish out nice damage before you die or stop a flag capture.

3. You do not want to draw attention to yourself except being #1 in damage on the score board after the battle.

 

I think most of the complaints come from people who try to play their sniper as something else and then, when it does not work, they are shocked. Or they maxed out their dps while ignoring defensive abilities and wonder why things are too hard. Or they try to carry a ball and wonder why they get killed fast. Sniper is not jack of all trades so don't be a hero by rushing into the horde of enemies and play smart. So yes, we are not an easy to play class but hardly a broken one.

[MWidowmaker]

dont feel bad, we have 2 level 50 snipers in my guild... one of which is my alt

[Ekoa]

I have 3 fifties including my main 50 r90 sniper. I find sniper really fun! i can manage my little space then prepare my hop to an other position. While i don't deal quite as much damage as other classes i feel i play a strong role in any team PVE-PVP and my damage isn't terrible.

Umm, I think there are a reasonable amount of snipers on my server.. perhaps your guild needs one for a bit of spice.

[Fedaykin]

heh there's no question the sniper is the underdog class atm.

I mean, we can spike ok, but it's a buildup, and experienced players that know when "it" is coming, just have to put up a bubble or something to ignore us while they kill our healer.

The prospect of using cover to protect ourselves from charging marauders is well.. useful if you're solo.. but odds are you're fighting along someone else who ISN'T in cover, so it limits your usefulness in a group. Operatives/assassins don't much care if I'm in cover, as they can sneak up behind me with relative ease and maul me like it's 19.69..

When levelling I was usually in the top 3 damage however, once you hit 50 and start grouping with the, let's be honest here, complete and stronger classes, that'll be far more rare. It happens, but it's bloody rare, and usually the sum of the remaining players underperforming than me being the one eyed man in the land of the blind.

 

For some reason I do love my sniper tho. I played ranger/rifleman in swg... so probably a masochist streak.

I leveled my merc straight after I did my sniper, and it's a COMPLETELY different game. Where on sniper I have to think the next 10 steps ahead, the merc is pure autopilot.. and I think if the merc had come along first, It'd have been an absolute ball ache to level the sniper.

 

My main quarrels with sniper is energy regen, way too slow both in and out of combat, the flawed cover system and the field tech headset looks like the prototype of This!

[Delease]

Alot is wrong. At least in PVP.

Lack of range for the range class, defensive abilities, damage type itself, lack of kiting ability.

 

A class that has to be immobile to really do its damage while having some of the lowest surviveability in the game is a poor concept in its own. The class really counters itself in alot of ways.

 

Before this patch it wasn't as bad. At least I didnt feel like it was a total loss as I was in full BM gear with replaced mods. I was able to do really good damage & survive alot of 1 on 1s. Since the patch, I don't know what happened but damage has DROPPED ( i put back original mods in BM gear so they got the update ). Orbital strike is just bad now. The time it takes between activation and the first hit is too great, along with the shorter radius it seems. I might hit one person (which is hitting for alot less now ) & they just move.

 

I am constantly seeing other classes hitting me at ease for 2500+ in what seems like instant attacks. II can lose 2/5 to 3/4 my health by the time I get off an ambush + followthrough + probe. Keeping classes at range is near impossible consider we basically have the same range as everyone else & the amount of gap closers & cc is greater then our ability to keep them away.

 

For a DPS only class you would think we should be glass cannons. While we are glass, we are far from the cannon. Classes just run up to us without any worry at all.

 

I am talking from a marks perspective. I tried leth before but frankly, if I wanted to be leth, I would have rolled an operative.

 

 

edit: actually, as odd as this may sound. MM snipers are probably the most balanced class in the game. Just all the other classes are out of whack.

 

Drop the vibroknife, give us shields. Let shields have an increased % while in cover. Change our damage type on some of our main abilities.

Edited April 19, 2012 by Delease

[EliteLX]

Figured I would chime in here. I am a valor lvl 81 sniper lethality spec. Currently have full BM gear and augmented sniper rifle with war hero rifle mods. Gear makes a huge difference for a sniper. When i started to pvp i got squashed in seconds. My survivability has gone up drastically. It takes a lot of finesse and skill to play a pvp sniper correctly. I have on several occasions been in 2v1 situations and killed them both while being left with 40% health. I have pvp'd in every spec including hybrid specs. Lethality is by far the best pvp spec. A lot of mobility, tons of damage, and plenty of cc. In my opinion there is nothing wrong with pvp snipers. I do most damage almost every game. I have done over 650k damage in a match. Just don't throw me the dayum huttball!

 

Elitegt-Keller's Void- Lethality Sniper

[CharterMonkKent]

-They are not force users. Many, many people play a sith, and many a jedi.

-There is no "imperial agent" character in the movie. While every other classes is represented on screen. Even the trooper is represented with Clone Wars (some heroes are trooper, not sure about the name, but Rex should be one of them).

-lack of mobility. Many fight needs you to move.

 

FYI. Only MM has mobility issues, there are two other trees. Lethality sniper is the most mobile ranged class in the game.

[LovarBoy]

FYI. Only MM has mobility issues, there are two other trees. Lethality sniper is the most mobile ranged class in the game.

 

 

 

I think Pyrotech-Mercenaries are much more mobile - and they can kite amazingly. It's roughly the same like Lethality, but the Merc is having way better defensive and the better burst - Thermal Detonator + Railshoot is quite hard hitting and the DoT's at <30% life are extremely strong.

Edited April 19, 2012 by LovarBoy

[CharterMonkKent]

I think Pyrotech-Mercenaries are much more mobile - and they can kite amazingly. It's roughly the same like Lethality, but the Merc is having way better defensive and the better burst - Thermal Detonator + Railshoot is quite hard hitting and the DoT's at <30% life are extremely strong.

 

Point taken, that's the one ranged class I've yet to try. I'm sure I'll get there

[wallt]

I have been playing mostly a sniper character since the game came out, and now am at leve 50. In PvP the main problem is that the sniper's best attacks and defenses require him/her to be stationary. And as you might expect I die a lot in warzones. Best way to rectify this would either be to give snipers a much tougher defensive ability (or maybe make Cover Pulse or Cover Shields more powerful and quicker to cool down. OR, agents could be allowed to bring a companion with them to a warzone (as all REAL world snipers have people who provide close over for them while they concentrate on the long-range shooting.

Seems to me Snipers also do well enough in quests and in general against AIs, but against the living? That's something else.

[CharterMonkKent]

I have been playing mostly a sniper character since the game came out, and now am at leve 50. In PvP the main problem is that the sniper's best attacks and defenses require him/her to be stationary. And as you might expect I die a lot in warzones. Best way to rectify this would either be to give snipers a much tougher defensive ability (or maybe make Cover Pulse or Cover Shields more powerful and quicker to cool down. OR, agents could be allowed to bring a companion with them to a warzone (as all REAL world snipers have people who provide close over for them while they concentrate on the long-range shooting.

Seems to me Snipers also do well enough in quests and in general against AIs, but against the living? That's something else.

 

I take it this is for MM build? It doesn't sound like the other two trees.

[Roatha]

Not really sure why folks are harping on Snipers in a few of these. Just started up playing the game this past month and over the last week started an agent and went sniper, picked MM and have been having a fairly easy time of it. Admitedly, without gearing up Kaliyo in any way shape or form, she's squishy, but so's every other companion/player without any gear to back them up. I never once ran into an elite that didn't die before or at the same time Kaliyo did and I replaced her with SCORPIO the moment I got the droid regardless.(again, no gear=squishy... gear=decent tank) AoE wise was never really an issue. Half the stuff you fight are droids, got a good minute lock out on those so groups of droids were always easy, others just as much through lock outs, ambush knock back, stun grenade and half a dozen other tools in the snipers tool box made short work of groups.

 

However, at 48... with orbital strike... groups were a joke, with normal or weak enemies its just line up orbital, pop suppresive fire, collect loot and move on. If you had a slightly stronger enemy then you'd setup orbital and go to town single target on the one other. The only time I've gotten killed was on the rare occasion that cover decided I should roll across the room into a second group when I'd already engaged the first group. And Yes, I have been playing these types of games for a long time and pick up a lot of these things quickly but, snipers pretty straight forward to begin with, and personally I love the class.

 

I do however feel there are a lot of items in the snipers tool box that are used regularily and fortunately with the mouse and keyboard I have the number of keybindings to seemlessly kill things without pause is relatively easy, however, for someone constantly having to click on the action bar to use abilities, I could understand the frustration this class could have.

[Technohic]

I just feel like saying "sniper sucks" just in hopes it never becomes the FOTM.

 

Shortcomings or not; I love the class and I would be afraid of a buff being followed by a nerf and the 2 of them defacing the class as we know it. So I am more than happy dealing with everything coming harder but it making it all the sweeter when I do have a hot match or two.

[Tibbel]

I just feel like saying "sniper sucks" just in hopes it never becomes the FOTM.

 

In that spirit...

 

 

Snipers are terrible, but at least they're nearly impossible to kill. Anyone with a brain will just target someone else rather than spend the next half hour trying to kill a sniper.

 

Also, don't worry about when a sniper is hanging out on the top level of catwalks in the huttball pit. Just leave them alone; they can't catch.

Edited April 20, 2012 by Tibbel