Can tactics hold its own against assault now in pvp? General questions.

[Taunque]

For Vanguards, Tactics is complete garbage without a working snare. I'm sure Powertechs are having a blast though.

[Keypek]

Ran it again all last night and had a lot more success this go around. Seemed like my speed was working more last night and was able to kite a lot more effectively while FP and IP'ing people in the face for 2.5k hits. Was fun. Even topped a couple really good Sentinels and got number 1 on total damage a few times. But, i was also going against a lot less organized teams of imps last night it seemed. Lot more squishies. I'm still not sold on its viability going against ranked groups that know what they are doing. It still needs the bugs fixed also. Overall though a fun spec and will play it a lot to get a wide sample of playtime.

 

Will give assault a try next and see how that goes.

[Keypek]

. the fact your 5stacks buff your Mortar Volley and whatever your AOE Grenade is (left over from an old beta build) where as the BH version does not and works appropriately.

 

Hmm, I did not know this. I did see my sticky grenade crit for like 1.7k last night and I thought "WHOA, *** happened there?" lol. Guess that explains it. Going to have to time some sticky grenade/mortar volley/followed by PC tonight lmao.

[Terrorshard]

Plasma cell for Vanguards is borked while BH version works perfectly. How did they screw so much mirroring of abilities up?

[TheOpf]

For Vanguards, Tactics is complete garbage without a working snare. I'm sure Powertechs are having a blast though.

 

It does make it much more difficult to pull off. AP pre 1.2 this was our biggest complaints. PG/PFT went from being very nice burst to a situational ability. I watched some of Taugrim's video on the Norse build and he used it alot for a non-slow ability. I also noted that your cone of damage seems to be wider based on totally on visual. I would love to find a Trooper on Ajunta Pall (my server) that wouldn't mind doing some 1v1 testing with me.

[Philosomanic]

Plasma cell for Vanguards is borked while BH version works perfectly. How did they screw so much mirroring of abilities up?

 

As far as I can tell, it's working fine for me. What issues are you having?

[Terrorshard]

As far as I can tell, it's working fine for me. What issues are you having?

 

The first tick never comes. It should be ticking 3 times. The BH versions has its first tick immediately, then one at 3 seconds, and a 3rd at 6 seconds. Trooper version just doesn't have the first tick, so it basically does 2/3rds of the tooltip damage.

[Philosomanic]

The first tick never comes. It should be ticking 3 times. The BH versions has its first tick immediately, then one at 3 seconds, and a 3rd at 6 seconds. Trooper version just doesn't have the first tick, so it basically does 2/3rds of the tooltip damage.

 

I'm pretty sure I'm not seeing that, but I'll check when I get home.

[TheOpf]

Hey guys, I posted this in the Customer Service, and if every Vangaurd can note the PG bug it will help get your slow.

 

Greetings TheOpf,

 

Please submit a bug report in game and include the following information:

 

• Server (ie Cosmic Turbine / Darth Malak)

• Character Name

• Character Level / Class / Advanced class

• Detailed description of the issue

Thank you for your assistance.

[DacRycar]

But these are my first impressions with the following spec.

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#801hMhZMsMMRrfkdsZb.1

 

Keypek: This spec is a good standard Tactics build, but consider dropping Gut and/or High Impact Bolt talents AND abilities all together. You'll end up with the "Tibetan Candle" (or, for some...ugh..."Norse") Tactics Spec.

 

The Rotation is roughly as follows:

- Fire Pulse

- 3x Ion Pulse

- Stockstrike (free proc)

- Ion Pulse

- Pulse Cannon

 

With High Energy Cell ammo and talents, your ammo regen will negate most of your need to weave Hammer Shots into your rotation. Pop a Reserve Powercell before a Pulse Cannon to save even more ammo – it doesn't respect the global cooldown, so use it!

 

With this spec, your Ion and Fire Pulses will hit as much as a talented High Impact Bolt. The reason you don't use HiB in this spec, though, is because of the 12-second rotation of this build. Using HiB will throw off your ammo and global cooldown.

 

An alternative to this spec is to put a point into Gut. Its not a priority ability, but, instead, a utility. In the build I linked above, I preferred not having it and decided to dump points into HiB penetration for those times I'm at range and my target has is DoTed/incapacitated from another class. Again, its situational but not a priority.

 

Also: the 15% speed boost is in combat only! Running out the gate with other players you are generally not in combat, and it does not stack with Sprint. I have noticed this talent's ability significantly when my UI bugs and drops my High Energy Cell. When I reactivate it, I'm outrunning other in combat players!

Edited April 19, 2012 by DacRycar

[TheOpf]

Keypek: This spec is a good standard Tactics build, but consider dropping Gut and/or High Impact Bolt talents AND abilities all together. You'll end up with the "Tibetan Candle" (or, for some...ugh..."Norse") Tactics Spec.

 

The Rotation is roughly as follows:

- Fire Pulse

- 3x Ion Pulse

- Stockstrike (free proc)

- Ion Pulse

- Pulse Cannon

 

With High Energy Cell ammo and talents, your ammo regen will negate most of your need to weave Hammer Shots into your rotation. Pop a Reserve Powercell before a Pulse Cannon if you can to save even more ammo – it also doesn't respect the global cooldown, so use it!

 

With this spec, your Ion and Fire Pulses will hit as much as a talented High Impact Bolt. The reason you don't use HiB in this spec, though, is because of the 12-second rotation of this build. Using HiB will throw off your ammo and global cooldown.

 

An alternative to this spec is to put a point into Gut. Its not a priority ability, but, instead, a utility. In the build I linked above, I preferred not having it and decided to dump points into HiB penetration for those times I'm at range and my target has is DoTed/incapacitated from another class. Again, its situational but not a priority.

 

Also: the 15% speed boost is in combat only! Running out the gate with other players you are generally not in combat, and it does not stack with Sprint. I have noticed this talent's ability significantly when my UI bugs out my ammo cells and drops my High Energy Cell. When I reactivate it, I am outrunning other players who are also in combat.

 

Glad to see you are using the Norse (or as some call it ugh Tibetan Candle ) I actually like both names, but stick with Norse for the synergy of it. I am going to post your variation of the build in the AP guide. The In combat only seems to be a vanguard only bug, as my 15 percent boost is always active. I was not aware it didn't stack with sprint. I am usually the first guy to the middle everytime, but it makes sense if it's an non-sprint related ability as that would be a bit overpowered. I will do some testing and see if it holds true for BH's.

[DacRycar]

Glad to see you are using the Norse (or as some call it ugh Tibetan Candle ) I actually like both names, but stick with Norse for the synergy of it. I am going to post your variation of the build in the AP guide.

 

Awesome! Thanks, Opf!

 

The Tibetan Candle spec has proven to be a smooth build but also an entertaining one to play - especially against Sorcs/Sages and Mercs/Commandos who stand there baffled as to why I wasn't knocked back by their blast! Additionally, the pure Tech damage rotation frustrates Mauraders and Sentinels who are used to listening and countering Assault's HiB procs with Obfuscate/Pacify.

 

I've even had a Sorc healer /say to me during a Civil War match: "STOP SPAMMING ION PULSE YOU NOOB! LRN2 PLAY!" My guildies and I had a good laugh on TeamSpeak over that!

 

Great spec! Love it. Its different and confuses people. Win win!

[Keypek]

Keypek: This spec is a good standard Tactics build, but consider dropping Gut and/or High Impact Bolt talents AND abilities all together. You'll end up with the "Tibetan Candle" (or, for some...ugh..."Norse") Tactics Spec.

 

The Rotation is roughly as follows:

- Fire Pulse

- 3x Ion Pulse

- Stockstrike (free proc)

- Ion Pulse

- Pulse Cannon

 

With High Energy Cell ammo and talents, your ammo regen will negate most of your need to weave Hammer Shots into your rotation. Pop a Reserve Powercell before a Pulse Cannon to save even more ammo – it doesn't respect the global cooldown, so use it!

 

With this spec, your Ion and Fire Pulses will hit as much as a talented High Impact Bolt. The reason you don't use HiB in this spec, though, is because of the 12-second rotation of this build. Using HiB will throw off your ammo and global cooldown.

 

An alternative to this spec is to put a point into Gut. Its not a priority ability, but, instead, a utility. In the build I linked above, I preferred not having it and decided to dump points into HiB penetration for those times I'm at range and my target has is DoTed/incapacitated from another class. Again, its situational but not a priority.

 

Also: the 15% speed boost is in combat only! Running out the gate with other players you are generally not in combat, and it does not stack with Sprint. I have noticed this talent's ability significantly when my UI bugs and drops my High Energy Cell. When I reactivate it, I'm outrunning other in combat players!

 

Thanks for the tips, will try out this spec tonight as I am not a big fan of gut in general. I am so used to thinking of HiB as an integral part of a vanguards dps that it is hard for me not to push that button lol. But I have pretty much started to use the rotation that you listed above anyway without using Hib because IP does hit like a truck now for me.

 

Also, the speed buff makes sense. Because I always wonder why I can never outrun people to the middle like you said but when I get in combat I'm amazed at how well I can run around people IP"ing them in the face and keep some distance.

 

Overall, the norse/tibetan seems to be the direction I am moving towards. Tactics is growing on me. Can't wait to finish out my new BM set and get all this supercommando crap off me.

[TheOpf]

Awesome! Thanks, Opf!

 

I've even had a Sorc healer /say to me during a Civil War match: "STOP SPAMMING ION PULSE YOU NOOB! LRN2 PLAY!" My guildies and I had a good laugh on TeamSpeak over that!

 

Great spec! Love it. Its different and confuses people. Win win!

 

I have had people ask me why I run around just spamming Flame Burst. I always say I don't, Every 12-15 seconds I do something else.

 

I really do wish Rail shot added a proc then it would actually make sense to use it. Use gut if the guy is above 50 percent health. if he is below it , don't use it.

[Fdzzaigl]

It is very satisfying to sneak up on a team that is zerging a node or a door and casting mortar volley followed by pulse cannon (or vice versa) and wiping them all out.

 

But yeah, the spec is still a puzzle as some said here, it is very irritating if you have a bad team and the opponents just chase everyone down one by one, or if you're facing a team of ranged opponents that refuse to cluster, but then again, that is always the case.

The most irritating thing ever is when your teammates just keep using AOE knockbacks on teams of clustered (and STUNNED) opponents for no reason whatsoever, when you're just setting up the most epic AOE of all time.

 

They have to fix the gosh darn pulse generator though, how many times have I been channeling it at 5 stacks against opponents who proceeded to just run away without any slow applying, when they would have probably died if it did...

[Cryowolf]

It is very satisfying to sneak up on a team that is zerging a node or a door and casting mortar volley followed by pulse cannon (or vice versa) and wiping them all out.

 

Don't do it that way if you can help it. Always do Mortar Volley first. Toss a sticky grenade as you move into position too for extra icing.

 

And I agree that it's very satisfying, unbelievably satisfying actually. Gives me goosebumps watching all those yellow numbers flashing and all those red bars getting smaller.

 

I wish Explosive Surge added a stack for each target it hit. Now that would be amazing, lol.

[Arzoo]

Tactics feels like it's just a really poorly put together talent tree.

 

I'm not saying it's not viable, it's just that most of it doesn't mesh very well and the talent investments are way, way out of wack.

 

You spend, what, 10 talent points on HiB? And it's STILL barely any better to use HiB than to just keep using pulses and stockstrikes. Gut is really poor; in my opinion they should change upper tier talents to buff it such that it is all internal damage, and with deep tactics talents the initial strike should be almost as good as stockstrike (move the surge bonus to gut instead of Stockstrike too). Then change the free stockstrike proc to be a free Gut. Nerf the ammo regen talent a bit to offset the easier access to a 0 cost ability. Change combat tactics to instead have a 100% chance per gut tick/hit to increase the crit chance of pulse cannon by 10% (stacking up to 5 times), and add pulse cannon to the surge talent. Change pulse generator to no longer increase damage but start reducing the cooldown and applying the snare/interrupt-immunity bonuses. This way Tactics no longer has ANY white attacks or kinetic damage, requires more interaction to manage ammo (looking for free guts) and pulse cannon, and in general has tighter ability synergy.

[Keypek]

The most irritating thing ever is when your teammates just keep using AOE knockbacks on teams of clustered (and STUNNED) opponents for no reason whatsoever, when you're just setting up the most epic AOE of all time.

...

 

Haha, yeah that is really frustrating. Had a whole cluster of imps in the bunker in novare bunched together. I had 5 stacks up and threw sticky grenade, started my mortar volley that I was going to follow with PC, and boom a sage goes flying in and boots them all behind me and spread out as I start to cast MV. So annoying.

[TheOpf]

Tactics feels like it's just a really poorly put together talent tree.

 

I'm not saying it's not viable, it's just that most of it doesn't mesh very well and the talent investments are way, way out of wack.

 

You spend, what, 10 talent points on HiB? And it's STILL barely any better to use HiB than to just keep using pulses and stockstrikes. Gut is really poor; in my opinion they should change upper tier talents to buff it such that it is all internal damage, and with deep tactics talents the initial strike should be almost as good as stockstrike (move the surge bonus to gut instead of Stockstrike too). Then change the free stockstrike proc to be a free Gut. Nerf the ammo regen talent a bit to offset the easier access to a 0 cost ability. Change combat tactics to instead have a 100% chance per gut tick/hit to increase the crit chance of pulse cannon by 10% (stacking up to 5 times), and add pulse cannon to the surge talent. Change pulse generator to no longer increase damage but start reducing the cooldown and applying the snare/interrupt-immunity bonuses. This way Tactics no longer has ANY white attacks or kinetic damage, requires more interaction to manage ammo (looking for free guts) and pulse cannon, and in general has tighter ability synergy.

 

While I am glad that your thinking of ways to synergize the tree, your changes would actually hurt the tree more than help it. Tactics does have a bunch of weird things in it. It's almost like they couldn't figure out which way to go. I am an AP BH. Check out my signature we have a build without Rail Shot on it. Taking away our free RP/SS and lowering the amount of heat venting would effectively kill a tree that is reliant on PG/PFT for burst damage.

 

The best two changes that we have thought of in the last 3 weeks of exploring ways to benefit the AP/Tactics tree are these.

 

1. Have Combat Tactics/CGC Rail Shot/HiB proc the PG buff.

2. Either improve Gut's damage or lower it's heat cost or take it off the GCD. Otherwise it's a dps loss unless it runs the entire dot.

 

There is a discussion that went 30 pages long that I posted a small synapsis of it in the AP guide.

[Fdzzaigl]

Don't do it that way if you can help it. Always do Mortar Volley first. Toss a sticky grenade as you move into position too for extra icing.

 

And I agree that it's very satisfying, unbelievably satisfying actually. Gives me goosebumps watching all those yellow numbers flashing and all those red bars getting smaller.

 

I wish Explosive Surge added a stack for each target it hit. Now that would be amazing, lol.

 

It depends, if you get a good chance to get PC, use it imo. Even if it's not at 5 stacks. I often found myself waiting for an opportunity that never came with 5 stacks, while I could have done serious damage with 3 or 4.

[Cryowolf]

It depends, if you get a good chance to get PC, use it imo. Even if it's not at 5 stacks. I often found myself waiting for an opportunity that never came with 5 stacks, while I could have done serious damage with 3 or 4.

 

My apologies, I should have clarified. I mean when you plan to use both MV and PC in conjunction that you should always use MV first.

[ToughPoodoo]

My normal play style is ranged. I would normally sit back and ping people from a distance. After 1.2 I wanted to change things up. I went full tactics and found myself now doing most of my damage in an "in your face" kind of way. I'm not sure if my dps went up or not but I actually see people's healthbars going down when I hit them. I love that satisfaction you get when you hear that sound that Gut makes. Usually I only hear that when I'm getting stabbed by an OP. I am doing fairly well in pvp now as well as in pve.

[Keypek]

but I actually see people's healthbars going down when I hit them.

 

It is a good feeling hehe. Last night I had a lot more people focusing me down which kinda sucked. Think I had 14 deaths one WZ which I think is a record for me. But I also had 430k damage which impressed me considering how much time I spent running back to the fight and waiting behind force fields lol. I'm like an unmanned fire hose turned on full when the fighting starts. Eventually someone will turn me off in a matter of seconds but in the time it took them to notice me I've already broken a couple skulls.

[TheOpf]

It is a good feeling hehe. Last night I had a lot more people focusing me down which kinda sucked. Think I had 14 deaths one WZ which I think is a record for me. But I also had 430k damage which impressed me considering how much time I spent running back to the fight and waiting behind force fields lol. I'm like an unmanned fire hose turned on full when the fighting starts. Eventually someone will turn me off in a matter of seconds but in the time it took them to notice me I've already broken a couple skulls.

 

The AP tree has a really high death rate. I know on Ajunta Pall, I changed my gear and now I don't get *** jumped by 3 guys as soon as I enter a fight.

 

On the Imperial side, whenever we go imps vs. imps, I had actually made it through a huttball with only 3 deaths with 5 minutes to go when their Healer who is a pain in my arse to kill, recognized me (I hid my helmet to screw with people as well). It was then that the three people from her premade spent the remaining five minutes jumping me. I ended that huttball with 11 deaths and 96 commendations in a 3-0 loss.

 

Once people see your PFT/PG going they will start to focus you. I am not sure why PYro/Assault guys don't get the same treatment. I think it has to do with unloading a flame thrower or electrical surge in a dudes face, and being within 4m of them Rocket Punching.

 

My worst total was my first few days as AP. I died 22 times in a single WZ.

Edited April 20, 2012 by TheOpf

[Cryowolf]

The AP tree has a really high death rate.

 

I died alot my first bunch of WZs as Tactics, too. Almost sent me back to Assault with my tail between my legs.

 

Then I remembered an older pvp vid I watched where Oozo was a tactics/assault hybrid (similar to "The Maverick" that Agooz is liking right now). In that vid he used HtL/HO as an escape tool. *light bulb*

 

I have been practicing with that when the mean guys realize it's my PC/FT that is melting them and they start touching me in bad ways. I'm having pretty good success with that whether its:

 

using the last 5 seconds of it to run away after a PC/FT

using the first 5 seconds to run away and come back repositioned before a PC/FT

using my AoE stun and then HtL/HO if there are a ton of them suddently chewing on me

 

Doesn't work all the time, but consistently enough for me. Most WZs where the action takes place there is something close by to LoS with. I just run away real quick and then I'm back. lol