Hi I just felt like chiming in to say that...

[Manweth]

I have hit 36 with my Vigilance GRD and I gotta say, it really is growing into a hellish beast. Monstrous DPS bursts combined with interrupts and ofc, PUSH is just insane. Add to that the newly trained Saber Throw......

 

Thing with GRD is that it requires almost insane visual acuity. You need to be a fast keyboard jockey and a man(woman) with the visual acuity of a fencer (incidentally, I'm fencer). There are so many skill procs and CDs it's a bother while getting used to your keyboard setup around lvl 20-28ish.

 

After you get used to it, class becomes a blast.

 

PRoblem is, or a blessing from a certain point of view, not everyone can pull off these criteria.

 

I'm beginning to suspect that this is the reason why I've seen so many Troopers lately.

 

Funny thing is, Sentinels are even worse off. Least we got panic buttons that actually save our behinds.

 

Oh and nerdraging? SO not cool man, so not cool.

[SageGaspar]

In PvP, guardian has a solid CC toolkit and nice mobility and the damage isn't so bad either. Guard is handy. I don't really have complaints there.

 

In PvE, I'm not convinced yet. I can't say from experience if guardian is necessarily weaker, but it definitely feels clunkier. It's tough to express precisely, but it just feels less fluid, the skills have less synergy than in other professions.

 

The combo points rarely limit me. Instead of other classes where you have to manage your heat and energy, I'm just watching the cooldowns of six or seven different single target attacks on my hotbar while I watch for riposte procs to hit off the GCD. And often that riposte doesn't work when I press it. Also, I can't riposte during the awkward three second melee channeled attack. And it janks around the animations.

 

More than other classes I just feel like I'm playing against the hotbar instead of managing a resource. That'd be my number one complaint. Number two is going through half of the game having only one AE on a 15s cooldown.

[Sensational]

Oh and nerdraging? SO not cool man, so not cool.

I know right? Dude I played focus up until like 25 when someone told me to try leveling as a tank, total nightmare.

 

Master Strike = Garbage = Channeled melee spell really and its are hardest hitter...***?

 

Force Statsis = Garbage = Cool i CC'd them and it does a DoT that is terrible dmg meanwhile i root myself and can't do anything else because it will break the cc...***?

 

Opportune Strike = Garbage = so situational it almost becomes irrelvant.

 

Im 39 right now I would quit Guardian if it weren't for the fact i alwys ride it out just to reach cap but I knew when i was lvl 32 I was gonna reroll soon as i hit 50 this class is just total garbage and whichever Dev thought up the idea to make Master Strike are hardest hitting nuke a channeled spell should be fired to be honest.

 

I would trade every ability a guardian has for Wow's Charge, intercept, Mortal strike or Heroic strike to be honest.

To be honest I disagree with everything you said except for opportune strike, but then the fact that it's situational is the whole point of that ability, it's just a reactive. Master Strike is worthless unless you spec for it though.

[Pliskinrob]

Once you get dispatch everything in pvp becomes so much more simple.

[E-Argos]

To be honest I disagree with everything you said except for opportune strike, but then the fact that it's situational is the whole point of that ability, it's just a reactive. Master Strike is worthless unless you spec for it though.

 

Once you get a point in either Force Clap or Stasis Mastery as a Defense Guardian, Master Strike becomes a big and unavoidable nuke, unless they use their "Trinket ability," in which case you've at least gained an advantage. Add that to the fact that you can use Freezing Force to slow them down enough to get a second or two of the channel off at lower levels, it's a pretty powerful ability. I don't claim to be an expert in PVP, but I've been seeing big numbers coming off of my Master Strikes, and I'm really okay with the fact that it's a challenging ability to use correctly.

[Sensational]

Once you get a point in either Force Clap or Stasis Mastery as a Defense Guardian, Master Strike becomes a big and unavoidable nuke, unless they use their "Trinket ability," in which case you've at least gained an advantage

True, yet going that deep defense is bad for both PvE and PvP.

[Helig]

True, yet going that deep defense is bad for both PvE and PvP.

Err, lolwut? Control is an integral part of Defense PvP. Without tier 5 Defense, you're gimping yourself (and your team) horribly. As a tank, your job is to be a pain for the other team. Juggling Guard between focus targets, taunting, locking down priority targets.

 

As for PvE, I wouldn't gain a whole lot losing Tier 5-6. I wouldn't get Protector without losing Shield specialization, which, while may not seem a lot, contributes to your crit-immunity (swtor-tank.com has the info, if you're interested). Not even thinking of getting Commanding Awe. You'd have to lose Courage (full of awesome if you know how to use it) and Pacification (not the best talent around, but is an excellent support for Swelling Winds).

Edited December 23, 2011 by Helig

[E-Argos]

Err, lolwut? Control is an integral part of Defense PvP. Without tier 5 Defense, you're gimping yourself (and your team) horribly. As a tank, your job is to be a pain for the other team. Juggling Guard between focus targets, taunting, locking down priority targets.

 

As for PvE, I wouldn't gain a whole lot losing Tier 5-6. I wouldn't get Protector without losing Shield specialization, which, while may not seem a lot, contributes to your crit-immunity (swtor-tank.com has the info, if you're interested). Not even thinking of getting Commanding Awe. You'd have to lose Courage (full of awesome if you know how to use it) and Pacification (not the best talent around, but is an excellent support for Swelling Winds).

 

Helig's totally right. In PVP, the Force Leap stun can be a huge boon, especially since you can follow it up with Pommel Strike, Master Strike, etc, and Stasis Mastery just adds too much control to pass up... Taking someone out of the fight for three seconds or forcing him to waste a trinket CD, with no cost other than a GCD AND you gain Focus while it works as well? You're seriously gimping yourself if you miss out on it, maybe not in pure numbers, but in utility.

 

And as far as PVE goes, same reasons he described. People are still complaining that Guardians don't have enough tools for threat management and control and Tier 5 has exactly the tools for it.

[VoidJustice]

Outside of the story my Trooper does EVERYTHING better than my Jedi. Damage, Pvp, Pve. The only thing keeping me on my Guardian... is the force. This class may be the most underpowered class in the game. I don't know how much better it gets at 30 but to be so underpowered at 10 - 30 is too much.

 

I hope Im not wasting my time on this class, although I fear I am.

[Aisaka_Taiga]

Seems like a personal problem, ive had 0 difficulty pre30, i think you were just bad at it.

 

Not trying to flame, but it seriously sounds like you just didnt have a grasp on how to make the most of it pre 30 and then decided to cry about it because you had to put in some extra work.

 

This is in reply to the original poster.

[Sensational]

Err, lolwut? Control is an integral part of Defense PvP. Without tier 5 Defense, you're gimping yourself (and your team) horribly. As a tank, your job is to be a pain for the other team. Juggling Guard between focus targets, taunting, locking down priority targets.

Going that deep for a single target stun (Where you already have an immobilize from the same ability) and turning a channeled stun into a non-channeled stun isn't worth it in comparison to the hybrid build, you can do both damage and better tanking with other setups.

 

That's just my opinion though, but I usually do pretty well in practice so I guess it works

 

As for PvE, I wouldn't gain a whole lot losing Tier 5-6. I wouldn't get Protector without losing Shield specialization, which, while may not seem a lot, contributes to your crit-immunity (swtor-tank.com has the info, if you're interested). Not even thinking of getting Commanding Awe. You'd have to lose Courage (full of awesome if you know how to use it) and Pacification (not the best talent around, but is an excellent support for Swelling Winds).

If you generate enough agro neither serves a purpose, with the hybrid build you already have free sweeps and blade storm is free on every leap, which you use a lot as a guardian tank.

 

I sacrifice the shield chance for the blanket reduction from Vigi, it depends a bit on how the fights are set up later on though. Overall efficiency vs Spike damage and such. Guardian has a whole heap of defensive cooldowns though, so crit/spike defense is less of an issue.

Edited December 23, 2011 by Sensational

[SunwindIon]

like dis if u cry ever time.

 

5ever <3

[Helig]

Going that deep for a single target stun (Where you already have an immobilize from the same ability) and turning a channeled stun into a non-channeled stun isn't worth it in comparison to the hybrid build, you can do both damage and better tanking with other setups.

 

That's just my opinion though, but I usually do pretty well in practice so I guess it works

Instant Stasis deserves more credit that you give it. An extra stun is divine for pvp. Stun instead of immobilize on Charge is also worth more than it looks, since it can't be resisted with immobilization-protection powers, which are available to quite a few specs.

 

You don't really gain a whole lot in Vigilance, unless you go all the way to Defender.

 

If you generate enough agro neither serves a purpose, with the hybrid build you already have free sweeps and blade storm is free on every leap, which you use a lot as a guardian tank.

 

I sacrifice the shield chance for the blanket reduction from Vigi, it depends a bit on how the fights are set up later on though. Overall efficiency vs Spike damage and such. Guardian has a whole heap of defensive cooldowns though, so crit/spike defense is less of an issue.

With proper prioritizing, I've yet to experience aggro issues. I had Troopers and Consulars spam AoE like mad on packs I was tanking and I lost it only once or twice - when I screwed up with a skill. But there's always the AoE taunt to remedy that.

 

Sacrificing avoidance and crit defense is *not* the way of the Tank. Also, you'll be tanking in Soresu. And you'll be losing out several Soresu-centric Focus-efficiency talents, thus marginalizing (if not negating) the DPS\aggro advantage from Vigilance.

If you use Courage right, your Sweeps are free, and your Storms cost 1 focus each. Vigilance advantage is illusionary.

Edited December 23, 2011 by Helig

[E-Argos]

Instant Stasis deserves more credit that you give it. An extra stun is divine for pvp. Stun instead of immobilize on Charge is also worth more than it looks, since it can't be resisted with immobilization-protection powers, which are available to quite a few specs.

 

You don't really gain a whole lot in Vigilance, unless you go all the way to Defender.

 

 

With proper prioritizing, I've yet to experience aggro issues. I had Troopers and Consulars spam AoE like mad on packs I was tanking and I lost it only once or twice - when I screwed up with a skill. But there's always the AoE taunt to remedy that.

 

Sacrificing avoidance and crit defense is *not* the way of the Tank. Also, you'll be tanking in Soresu. And you'll be losing out several Soresu-centric Focus-efficiency talents, thus marginalizing (if not negating) the DPS\aggro advantage from Vigilance.

If you use Courage right, your Sweeps are free, and your Storms cost 1 focus each. Vigilance advantage is illusionary.

 

So much truth here. As apparent as a lot of the advantages of a hybrid Defense/Vigilance spec are, they pale in comparison to a lot of the higher Defense talents, in both PVP and PVE. I'd take an extra couple of stun utilities and free sweeps over slightly easier threat gain and better DPS as a tank any day.

[FtenEQ]

As a complete Defense specced Guardian up to level 23 so far. I've had zero issues with my Guardian.

 

I love it, I haven't had this much fun in a long time and I am really enjoying the storyline.

 

Now I haven't tried a single other class thus far. And maybe that's my saving grace. Maybe I don't know what I'm missing?

 

I'm planning on keeping him my main, especially since Guardians as have been said previously are due for a balancing pass, at least they were late in beta and we've definitely not seen one.

 

Though realistically I know how to cycle cooldowns like a boss and have kept my synthweaving up as well.

 

To each their own I guess.

[Sensational]

Instant Stasis deserves more credit that you give it. An extra stun is divine for pvp. Stun instead of immobilize on Charge is also worth more than it looks, since it can't be resisted with immobilization-protection powers, which are available to quite a few specs.

 

You don't really gain a whole lot in Vigilance, unless you go all the way to Defender.

Defender? Protector? Yes, you go that far, and further yet if you prefer blanket reduction over the spike defense of the 4% shield chance talent.

 

With proper prioritizing, I've yet to experience aggro issues. I had Troopers and Consulars spam AoE like mad on packs I was tanking and I lost it only once or twice - when I screwed up with a skill. But there's always the AoE taunt to remedy that.

Exactly, which is why the things you mentioned in Defense is not worth it.

 

Sacrificing avoidance and crit defense is *not* the way of the Tank. Also, you'll be tanking in Soresu. And you'll be losing out several Soresu-centric Focus-efficiency talents, thus marginalizing (if not negating) the DPS\aggro advantage from Vigilance.

If you use Courage right, your Sweeps are free, and your Storms cost 1 focus each. Vigilance advantage is illusionary.

The only thing you sacrifice defensively is blade barrier (And if you prefer it, shield chance) and you gain quite a lot from deep Vigi. Courage isn't that great as I said, sweeps are already free with hybrid and on bosses without cleave so are quite a few of your bladestorms.

 

If blade barrier was better then yes, deep Defense might be worth it.

[Helig]

So much truth here. As apparent as a lot of the advantages of a hybrid Defense/Vigilance spec are, they pale in comparison to a lot of the higher Defense talents, in both PVP and PVE. I'd take an extra couple of stun utilities and free sweeps over slightly easier threat gain and better DPS as a tank any day.

I do skip Tiers 6 and 7 Defense - at least till they are improved. Unremitting is too good to pass up for PvP. So technically, I am playing a hybrid.

Defender? Protector? Yes, you go that far, and further yet if you prefer blanket reduction over the spike defense of the 4% shield chance talent.

You are forgetting that you also miss out efficiency talents without getting a whole lot in return. Commanding Awe is just not worth losing Courage and Shield Specialization (which you can still get with Protector - although just barely. For Overhead strike you *will* have to lose points in those talents).

 

Exactly, which is why the things you mentioned in Defense is not worth it.

In PvP, yes it's worth it, ten times over.

 

The only thing you sacrifice defensively is blade barrier (And if you prefer it, shield chance) and you gain quite a lot from deep Vigi. Courage isn't that great as I said, sweeps are already free with hybrid and on bosses without cleave so are quite a few of your bladestorms.

 

If blade barrier was better then yes, deep Defense might be worth it.

Courage sucks if you are using it wrong. And I don't see myself charging by cooldown in bossfights.

 

Effluence is the only thing remotely worth it in Tier 4 Vigilance, and Protector is the only thing that's worth it in Tier 5. But I have to sacrifice whole Tier 5 Defense to get them. Instant Stasis is also a guaranteed (unless broken with a CC-break, I think) instant-cast, thus uninterruptable, 3 Focus gain, during which you can Sunder. Overhead Slash is also worth mentioning - but it's a DPS talent. And I have yet to encounter single target aggro issues.

 

For PvE, I'd actually think about, because, depending on the encounter, reliable 20% to damage reduction on Guardian Leaps can be useful. For PvP, however, no thanks. I'll have my boatloads of CC any day. Locking down the enemy in a nice, long, juicy chain stops 100% damage\healing. You also get a bonus of almost hearing them rage and scream as they get slaughtered.

Edited December 24, 2011 by Helig

[Cybermeister]

I like the Guardian class... it is harder work than , well, all the others I've played so far but that doesn't mean it's not fun. I just wish that it was a little more viable in PvP situations (I play on a PvP server) when you get jumped when you're on your own, because right now you're dead meat 99% of the time (if the other guy is a ranged class, 80% of the time if it's a melee DPS). It doesn't matter how long you live, the outcome is always the same, assuming the other guy doesn't screw up. You just can't hold them down long enough to hurt them.

[Darkshadz]

I like the Guardian class... it is harder work than , well, all the others I've played so far but that doesn't mean it's not fun. I just wish that it was a little more viable in PvP situations (I play on a PvP server) when you get jumped when you're on your own, because right now you're dead meat 99% of the time (if the other guy is a ranged class, 80% of the time if it's a melee DPS). It doesn't matter how long you live, the outcome is always the same, assuming the other guy doesn't screw up. You just can't hold them down long enough to hurt them.

 

It depends if you have Doc or not. A BH jumped me when I was fighting a few mobs and after running away from the mob (I was at like 20% hp left), I popped my cooldowns and destroyed the BH. All of that thanks to Doc who kept me alive.

[Cybermeister]

Level 34 - haven't quite completed Act I yet (overlevelled from running Flashpoints with friends) - alas, even a Taral V lightsabre won't save you from an asswhuppin' Edited December 24, 2011 by Cybermeister

[Sensational]

I do skip Tiers 6 and 7 Defense - at least till they are improved. Unremitting is too good to pass up for PvP. So technically, I am playing a hybrid.

 

You are forgetting that you also miss out efficiency talents without getting a whole lot in return. Commanding Awe is just not worth losing Courage and Shield Specialization (which you can still get with Protector - although just barely. For Overhead strike you *will* have to lose points in those talents).

I said it before and I'll say it again. Courage is not worth it purely for the Bladestorm reduction (Force sweep is free in both specs, although 100% with Hybrid).

 

The question lies in if you prefer the 4% damage reduction from Awe or the 4% shield chance from Shield spec. Based on what I've seen so far and on some pretty basic math I prefer the former. However you don't have to go that far to play as a Hybrid.

 

Instant Stasis is also a guaranteed (unless broken with a CC-break, I think) instant-cast, thus uninterruptable, 3 Focus gain, during which you can Sunder. Overhead Slash is also worth mentioning - but it's a DPS talent.

For PvP, Overhead is excellent. For PvE, it's also excellent. Stasis is cool in PvP but with the amount of CC going around and everyone having Resolve and CC breaks I don't find that I need it or benefit from it all that much.

 

For PvE, I'd actually think about, because, depending on the encounter, reliable 20% to damage reduction on Guardian Leaps can be useful. For PvP, however, no thanks. I'll have my boatloads of CC any day. Locking down the enemy in a nice, long, juicy chain stops 100% damage\healing. You also get a bonus of almost hearing them rage and scream as they get slaughtered.

Improved Guardian Leap is the best thing you get for PvP sir.

 

6 seconds of what is practically complete negation of any spike damage, on command, every minute, is absolutely fantastic. Against premades it is the best tool you get in any of your skill trees. On the encounters in PvE where it works it is even better.

 

Locking someone down with your stuns works without improved Stasis as long as you don't rely completely on it, you simply time it right and let your teammates deal the damage. While the initial stun with Leap is naturally useful there's enough CC to go around and thus doesn't outweigh the bonuses from Vigi.

Edited December 24, 2011 by Sensational

[Helig]

I said it before and I'll say it again. Courage is not worth it purely for the Bladestorm reduction (Force sweep is free in both specs, although 100% with Hybrid).

 

The question lies in if you prefer the 4% damage reduction from Awe or the 4% shield chance from Shield spec. Based on what I've seen so far and on some pretty basic math I prefer the former. However you don't have to go that far to play as a Hybrid.

If it was the choice between what you have described, then yes, definitely. But you seem to be forgetting about the entire Tier 5 Defense.

 

For PvP, Overhead is excellent. For PvE, it's also excellent. Stasis is cool in PvP but with the amount of CC going around and everyone having Resolve and CC breaks I don't find that I need it or benefit from it all that much.

Except it's unnecessary. An extra damaging move won't make or break your game as a tank. Improved CC, however, can.

 

Plus, Hilt Strike has 2.0 threat modifier in Soresu. Excellent for solidifying initial aggro.

 

Improved Guardian Leap is the best thing you get for PvP sir.

 

6 seconds of what is practically complete negation of any spike damage, on command, every minute, is absolutely fantastic. Against premades it is the best tool you get in any of your skill trees. On the encounters in PvE where it works it is even better.

I can definitely see its use in PuG-based PvP, were you're basically fighting for your life in all the chaos. In a premade, coordinated CC is king. Old Arena habit from WoW. Strangely enough, works perfectly in ToR.

 

Locking someone down with your stuns works without improved Stasis as long as you don't rely completely on it, you simply time it right and let your teammates deal the damage. While the initial stun with Leap is naturally useful there's enough CC to go around and thus doesn't outweigh the bonuses from Vigi.

Instant stun>channeled stun. It unties your hands in a dynamic PvP situation. You get interrupted, stun ends. You need to do something else urgently (like kicking a healer in the face), stun ends.

 

You appear to keep thinking of those abilities as isolated things. Yeah, instant stasis alone isn't worth speccing into Tier5 Defense. Except it all adds up. To a great effect.

[Sensational]

I can definitely see its use in PuG-based PvP, were you're basically fighting for your life in all the chaos. In a premade, coordinated CC is king. Old Arena habit from WoW. Strangely enough, works perfectly in ToR.

You use CC to be able to burst a target down without interruption. With Guardian leap on your side that doesn't happen to you despite enemy CC.

You appear to keep thinking of those abilities as isolated things. Yeah, instant stasis alone isn't worth speccing into Tier5 Defense. Except it all adds up. To a great effect.

As do you when you compare it to the high end Vigi stuff. The "great effect" of deep Vigi adds up to more than the deep Defense stuff. Especially for PvE.

 

We can just agree to disagree.

Edited December 24, 2011 by Sensational

[Helig]

You use CC to be able to burst a target down without interruption. With Guardian leap on your side that doesn't happen to you despite enemy CC.

Last time I checked, Guardian Leap, even talented, does not break CC. You also have defensive cooldowns for a reason. Unremitting also grants damage resistance. And I can use CC to prevent damage on both, myself and my team-mates.

As do you when you compare it to the high end Vigi stuff. The "great effect" of deep Vigi adds up to more than the deep Defense stuff. Especially for PvE.

 

We can just agree to disagree.

Even combined together, all you get over Defense is a moderate increase of burst damage and minor to moderate situational survivability.

 

 

But yeah, we can definitely agree to disagree. It's all in the playstyle, and I personally prefer to have as much CC as humanly (zabrakly, twi'lek-ly) possible.

[Sensational]

Last time I checked, Guardian Leap, even talented, does not break CC. You also have defensive cooldowns for a reason. Unremitting also grants damage resistance. And I can use CC to prevent damage on both, myself and my team-mates.

No it does not break CC, it stops enemy spikes and without a purge there's nothing they can do about it.

Edited December 24, 2011 by Sensational