Help Bioware, My Trooper Is No Longer Fun To Play

[Star-ranger]

You know, I feel obligated to point out that success should not be guaranteed when you try to duo a heroic 4.[/Quote]

 

Nobody was saying that it should.

hile my brother and I duo'd almost every heroic 4 up until Corelia and Ilum - there were a few that we could not. That doesn't mean the class is broken. Now, I personally don't agree with the concept of heroic 4 quests out in the world but if they are going to be classified as heroic 4s then they should probably be difficult enough to require 4 real players.

 

Not even the issue. It's a given that 2 + Companions is not 4 players.

 

A gunnery commando is not hard to figure out. I found almost no difference in survivability for my gear level - which is, admittedly, almost all Rakata (T3) gear. Now, perhaps it is different for a low/mid level commando that is not able to have all the necessary talents. This is an inherent problem in any point-based talent system though.

 

Again not the issue. I was making a general statement about game difficulty: elitest vs. casual. However I could design a better combat and skill system...yeah I know, everybody says that.

 

Perhaps the problem is that you are "restarting characters" and trying to do content that insinuates you need more than 2 players.

 

No, I don't think so. I get rid of a character when I perceive that it doesn't match my play style. It's interesting that both my wife and I have had Guardians and Sages. She's acutally better at playing her guardian than I was with mine, correspondingly I'm better with my Sage. So I got rid of my Guardian. Shrug.

 

Your primary survivability complaint is in heroic 4s - yet you are trying to duo them with 2 players. A well-geared companion is only 60% of the output of a player at best. So with all things the best they can be, at most - you have 3.2 players worth of power while trying to do a heroic 4. I know I had a difficult time keeping my companions well-fitted as they primarily got my hand-me-downs while I was leveling. My Elara is now wearing near T2 gear and does awesome but she still isn't as good as having a T2 geared healer specced player around.

 

No, my complaint is that the vulnerabilty is up and the rate at which we're taking damage is up. Our commandos are now fragile glass canons where they were fine before. I gave a few examples which included a heroic 4, a heroic 2 and some others, but the anecdotes are not the point. Even in circumstances where we're not being killed outright we're still taking tons of damage we weren't before, and shouldn't be now. It's not a play style issue. it's a mechanics issue.

 

Sure you can still play the class. I never said one couldn't. I said my wife and I were not having FUN playing our commandos now, and the reason we're not having fun is because we're taking damage at an unacceptable rate.

 

Not trying to be rude, I don't need some well meaning self appointed expert telling me how to play my character, or telling me I'm playing it wrong. All the well meaning advice and condescention doesn't make an unfun play experience more fun. My wife and I don't want to play our commandos anymore because of the negative fun factor, not because we can't play them. Sure we could stick with them, and play them, we just wouldn't be having the fun with them that we had before. And we'd rather not play them than suffer through a negative bad experielce they've become. If you're having fun with yours that's nice good luck to you... But we're not playing ours.

[Elhanan]

Newbie Trooper here, and Boy! Is this a depressing thread to read before choosing an AC!

 

Based on the reductions seen in my Inquisitor post-patch, it is my theory that the rebalancing done for PvP and End game materials may have skipped doing the same for the PvE opposition. Like was mentioned earlier, I found Elites that I had defeated previously were now avoided or skipped, and saw my Health drop much more rapidly then before.

 

Q: Is this affecting both versions of the Commando; both Gunnery and Assault?

Edited April 20, 2012 by Elhanan

[MatticusRex]

Nobody was saying that it should.

 

Then why do you put so much emphasis on the fact that you can't? That is the bulk of your complaint, unless you're honestly having the same trouble while doing normal questing. If that's the case, I'll say again: if you can't complete normal quests with a group of two and your companions, the problem is with you, not the game.

 

 

Again not the issue. I was making a general statement about game difficulty: elitest vs. casual. However I could design a better combat and skill system...yeah I know, everybody says that.

 

It's not elitist to say that the game's talent system is easy to figure out (especially for a spec a straight-forward as Gunnery), nor is it elitist to assert that everything that isn't a Heroic or Flashpoint is tuned to be completed by a solo player and his or her companion. That is a statement of fact, backed up by stated game design and volumes of player experience. If something is a Heroic 2, then it is tuned to be completed by a group of two players, regardless of how they spec'd. Same for Heroic 4s. Just because some CAN be completed with fewer, doesn't mean you should expect to be able to all the time. Likewise, if you find you can't complete something with the proper group size, this usually points to mistakes and errors on the players' part. ESPECIALLY if you have 5 levels on the content you're trying to complete.

 

 

No, my complaint is that the vulnerabilty is up and the rate at which we're taking damage is up. Our commandos are now fragile glass canons where they were fine before. I gave a few examples which included a heroic 4, a heroic 2 and some others, but the anecdotes are not the point. Even in circumstances where we're not being killed outright we're still taking tons of damage we weren't before, and shouldn't be now. It's not a play style issue. it's a mechanics issue.

 

No, it's not. Again, why are you even taking damage? If you are focusing your tank companion's target, you shouldn't be pulling aggro unless you significantly outgear them or they have either their tank stance or taunt turned off. If the tank companion is dying too quickly, either you're pulling too many groups or their gear needs updating. If you've done both and you still have the problem, you'll just have to accept the fact that one of you might occasionally have to throw out a heal. Between two DPS players, nothing should be living long enough to cause this problem anyway.

 

And this is beside the fact that even if you do somehow manage to pull threat, all three of the classes you mentioned playing have multiple tools for dealing with stray mobs. You have CC, knockbacks, slows, and short-term stuns. Use them.

 

Sure you can still play the class. I never said one couldn't. I said my wife and I were not having FUN playing our commandos now, and the reason we're not having fun is because we're taking damage at an unacceptable rate.

 

Not trying to be rude, I don't need some well meaning self appointed expert telling me how to play my character, or telling me I'm playing it wrong. All the well meaning advice and condescention doesn't make an unfun play experience more fun. My wife and I don't want to play our commandos anymore because of the negative fun factor, not because we can't play them. Sure we could stick with them, and play them, we just wouldn't be having the fun with them that we had before. And we'd rather not play them than suffer through a negative bad experielce they've become. If you're having fun with yours that's nice good luck to you... But we're not playing ours.

 

See, this attitude irks me. This tells me that the only reason you were having fun before was because you were steamrolling everything in your path no matter what you did. Now that you suddenly and inexplicably can't steamroll the Trivial content that used to be Super-Trivial, you're throwing a fit. And then when someone points out that the content is still trivial and offers pointers on what you might be doing wrong, you put your fingers in your ears and complain about being told what to do.

 

But whatever. If you're going to hang up your commandos over this or cancel your subs, then more power to you. Just don't say that nobody tried to help.

[mykaels]

Glad I read all the way through. Playing with another person, my gameplay is fine with commando with absolutely no problems no matter what type of other player I am playing with. The OP and his wife just do not know how to play their classes well. Even two healing sages I think can do just about anything, even heroic 4's.

 

My problem is when soloing, due to the hours I play (4am to 7am), I mostly only get to solo. I think my rotations need adjusting for the new 1.2. For PvE, which is the best tree, and what is the best rotation. Having played DD mages my whole life, trooper has been very fun but very new to me, and just starting to get the hang of this class, 1.2 kind of threw me for a loop. I am loving the storyline though and kind of want to continue (I know, one of THOSE people )

[Mezmeara]

I've been following some of the conversations here and finally decided to put my 2-cents in.

 

I'm with Star-ranger - My trooper is no longer fun to play since the (depending on your perspective) nerf/improvement/change/whatever-you want to call it.

 

The people who are criticizing the play style of somebody they have not played with are missing the point: the troopers have been changed for whatever reason tptb have , and there are a lot of people unhappy about that change. I would also suggest that logically if anybody is now failing at tasks they were succeeding on before 1.2, it is not unreasonable to perceive those changes as being bad or undesireable and as having weakened the characters REGARDLESS of their play style.

 

(also, for the record, I don't remember anybody asking for a critique of their playstyle, although they graciously submitted to the suggestion, and shouldn't now be condemned and insulted when they are frustrated with the implication that they just don't know how to play.)

 

I'm glad for those people who are either high enough level-wise or have a play-style that benefits, or at least is not damaged, by the changes. Hurrah for you! You are playing the way Bioware people expected you to I suppose. But for those of us for whom this change has damaged our success/enjoyment of the Trooper character, well.....I guess there is a whole class which is now unplayable for us, and losing that option just diminishes the appeal of Swtor by *that* much.

 

Here's praying that nobody decides to "improve" Smugglers. =)

[Star-ranger]

 

Blah blah blah... insulting, derogatory, non-helpful remarks... blah blah blah

 

But whatever. If you're going to hang up your commandos over this or cancel your subs, then more power to you. Just don't say that nobody tried to help.

 

Look Rex I think you think you're trying to be helpful... but it's just not working for me. Your 'advice' is just not helpful with the current situation. You should know, a few generalized statements are not enough specific information for you to come to any conclusion about anybody's play style, let alone criticize them for it.

 

Please remember that I didn't ask any players for help. I asked Bio Ware for help. They're the only ones who can change the defense mechanics back.

 

Note: After having my wife read some of my previous posts she tells me that I may have overstated the negatives of our performance vs. lower level MOBs. Apologies. Sometimes hyperbole takes over when emotions are involved. Fact remains we still hung up our troopers due to dissatisfaction with their performance.

[MatticusRex]

Look Rex I think you think you're trying to be helpful... but it's just not working for me. Your 'advice' is just not helpful with the current situation. You should know, a few generalized statements are not enough specific information for you to come to any conclusion about anybody's play style, let alone criticize them for it.

 

Please remember that I didn't ask any players for help. I asked Bio Ware for help. They're the only ones who can change the defense mechanics back.

 

Note: After having my wife read some of my previous posts she tells me that I may have overstated the negatives of our performance vs. lower level MOBs. Apologies. Sometimes hyperbole takes over when emotions are involved. Fact remains we still hung up our troopers due to dissatisfaction with their performance.

 

"Insulting, derogatory, and unhelpfu remarks" eh? OK then. Personally, I don't think telling someone that they're doing something wrong when they are clearly doing something wrong is insulting and derogatory. Then again, I don't feel it's necessary to misrepresent the amount of difficulty I'm having when I feel something is in need of change, so clearly we have different standards regarding honesty.

 

I offered advice (unsolicited, sure) that was to the point based on what you had described. That you choose to disregard that advice out of hand as unhelpful, without also providing any further detail that might lead to advice that you do find useful is on you. If you didn't want other players to offer help, you shouldn't have made a QQ thread on the forums.

 

But whatever. If you want to continue whining in the hopes that Bioware will rebalance the game to suit your specific playstyle at the expense of the style that they intended and that works for the vast majority of the player base, then by all means continue. Just don't be surprised if people call you out for what by all indications is player error.

[Star-ranger]

"Insulting, derogatory, and unhelpfu remarks" eh? OK then. Personally, I don't think telling someone that they're doing something wrong when they are clearly doing something wrong is insulting and derogatory. Then again, I don't feel it's necessary to misrepresent the amount of difficulty I'm having when I feel something is in need of change, so clearly we have different standards regarding honesty.

 

I offered advice (unsolicited, sure) that was to the point based on what you had described. That you choose to disregard that advice out of hand as unhelpful, without also providing any further detail that might lead to advice that you do find useful is on you. If you didn't want other players to offer help, you shouldn't have made a QQ thread on the forums.

 

But whatever. If you want to continue whining in the hopes that Bioware will rebalance the game to suit your specific playstyle at the expense of the style that they intended and that works for the vast majority of the player base, then by all means continue. Just don't be surprised if people call you out for what by all indications is player error.

 

What part of calling someone a liar, a whiner, and incompetent do you not find insulting? What part of telling someone to use abilities and companions they don't have yet is helpful? When we're using healing companions, and CC powers it's not functioning like it was before, and in many situations our tank characters are dying much faster than they were before so your advice is not helpful. By the way, we were not "steamrollering" over everything, we found things challenging but doable.

 

This is not a QQ thread. I wasn't asking for your advice or the advice of any other players. I was making a note on the change in play. You asked me questions about what was going on, and I was polite enough to answer your inquiry after which your comments turned abusive.

 

Anyway it's arrogant on your part to state that the new changes "work" for the vast majority of the player base since you don't have any numbers to back that up. I think we can call that unintended exaggeration or hyperbole. Consider by your own standards it calls your honesty into question. On the other hand there is plenty of evidence that a large number of players have stopped playing their commandos due to the changes as posted on these boards. Is that a majority? I wouldn't know I don't have the numbers. But, they're clearly not having as much fun with their commandos as they were before.

 

Rex after your attitude, insults, and insinuations you're the last person on the boards I'd go to for advice. If you're going to offer advice perhaps it's better to frame it differently and perhaps ask if it's wanted before dumping on people.

Edited April 22, 2012 by Star-ranger

[Mezmeara]

Ummmm..... I would suggest that this thread is dead.

 

The original post was not a "qq" post, there was no solicitation for help it was merely a statement that somebody and his wife were very disappointed with the changes to their trooper characters,. Changes, I might add, that nobody has denied occurred.

 

There are people here who love their troopers still and play the way Bioware apparently planned for them to be played. But the OP is clearly NOT alone in his disapointment as there have been other people in this thread that agreed with him.

 

Every change in this game is going to require some level of adjustment which will be different for each player. Unless somebody has been playing with somebody else for some time, I don't believe it is fair to presume to evaluate their capability to play. Heck! Somebody who can do 4+ missions with 2 people at any time must be doing something right. =) The reason there are so many archetypes is precisely because there is a huge spectrum in play styles. The OP is clearly disappointed that the changes which were made to the trooper were significant enough to now makes that archetype "unfun" to play for him.

 

Personally, the best thing I can see coming out of this thread is the knowledge that there is a lot of passion for this game, which should be celebrated rather than a cause for fighting.

 

Where do *I* stand? For me the trooper was always an "meh" archetype, and the changes have just made is more "meh". Will I continue playing it (perhaps) in the hopes of maybe figuring out how to compensate for the changes....maybenot. Will I continue to follow this thread? NO....it's run it's course.

 

Move along folks, play the game.

 

BTW:

(The suggestion that "the vast majority" of players feel any particular way is silly hyperbole...the "vast majority" of players are NOT playing troopers for the first part, and "the vast marjority" of players don't even post on these forums, so please, let's keep the hyperbole at least in the realm of reality.)

[MatticusRex]

What part of calling someone a liar, a whiner, and incompetent do you not find insulting?

 

First off, identifying and trying to address mistakes does not equal calling someone incompetent. All that is is identifying and trying to address mistakes. If Tom Brady throw an interception and his coach tells him he shouldn't have made that throw and that he needs to make adjustments, is the coach calling him incompetent? No, he's telling him that he made a mistake and that he needs to make adjustments.

 

I never insulted you as a player. The closest thing I did was saying that you don't have an excuse for being unable to complete content with a Commando/Sage pair of Tatooine-level--because you don't. That is one of the top 5 most powerful and versatile class pair compositions in the game. If you find yourself unable to complete heroic 2's with two minute long CC (Concussive Round at lvl 22, Force Lift--capable of hitting 3 targets with points in Balance), 2-3 knockbacks (Concussive Charge, Sage knockback, SS if talented), multiple short-term stuns (Cryo grenade, Full-Auto, Project, Plasma Grenade, Force Quake, MV, Force Stun, Sticky Grenade), 1-3 slows (Telekenic Throw, Sweltering Heat if Assault, Cover Fire in a few levels), 2 cleanses, a dedicated interrupt and two classes that can throw off-heals, then yes, that would make you a bad player.

 

If you were having trouble because you didn't realize all of that, then it would make you an inexperience player that has room to improve.

 

I'll admit to calling you a whiner, but only because your declaration that you don't want help from players because you want BioWare to fix all your problems is a classic whine. "I don't want to be a better player! I want BioWare to bend to my whims!"

 

What part of telling someone to use abilities and companions they don't have yet is helpful? When we're using healing companions, and CC powers it's not functioning like it was before, and in many situations our tank characters are dying much faster than they were before so your advice is not helpful. By the way, we were not "steamrollering" over everything, we found things challenging but doable.

 

Nothing that I told you was outside of your level range. If you're on Tatooine, you're between level 23 and 29 on average. That means you have access to all the skills I listed and all the talents that I listed. If your tank characters are dying more quickly that could be one of two things: either there is some kind of armor bug (one that I have not encountered on any of my characters--all of whom wear heavy armor or have companions that do), or your companions are in need of a gear upgrade. If you don't find advice directed at a specific problem that you've mentioned helpful, but don't also say why it's unhelpful, that's on you. You never specified whether your companions' gear is up to date. Is it? It's a yes or no question, and would go a long way towards finding out if there actually is a bug by removing that variable from the equation.

 

This is not a QQ thread. I wasn't asking for your advice or the advice of any other players. I was making a note on the change in play. You asked me questions about what was going on, and I was polite enough to answer your inquiry after which your comments turned abusive.

 

Whenever someone posts a thread like this, you're going to get player input. it comes with the territory. And for the record, spouting broad generalities about what you're doing without providing specific information and then proceeding to tell me that I don't know what I'm talking about is neither answering an inquiry nor particularly polite. Nor have you been honest in your representation of your difficulties, as you yourself have admitted to exaggerating the difficulty you've been having.

 

 

Anyway it's arrogant on your part to state that the new changes "work" for the vast majority of the player base since you don't have any numbers to back that up. I think we can call that unintended exaggeration or hyperbole. Consider by your own standards it calls your honesty into question.

 

Touche. Oh wait, I still never presented any false information as if it were the truth, so you'd still be wrong. But for argument's sake, allow me to clarify: Based upon my own experience, the experience of my guildmates, the experiences of people in this thread and others that disagree with you, and several TOR related websites that have not reported similar experiences, you are doing something wrong.

 

On the other hand there is plenty of evidence that a large number of players have stopped playing their commandos due to the changes as posted on these boards. Is that a majority? I wouldn't know I don't have the numbers. But, they're clearly not having as much fun with their commandos as they were before.

 

It's a video game forum. I've seen threads on this board from people saying they were quitting the game because they couldn't get Sgt. Jaxxo to join their crew, or because they aren't able to play a Gunnery Commando with a blaster rifle.

 

Rex after your attitude, insults, and insinuations you're the last person on the boards I'd go to for advice. If you're going to offer advice perhaps it's better to frame it differently and perhaps ask if it's wanted before dumping on people.

 

Fine, don't take my advice. Go ahead and ask others; chances are they're going to say and ask the exact same things I did, only with probably more snark. Assuming they deign to tell you anything other than "L2P nub."

 

Or just continue to beg BioWare to "fix" everything, because it's clearly impossible that you might be doing anything wrong, right?

[Star-ranger]

First off, identifying and trying to address mistakes does not equal calling someone incompetent. All that is is identifying and trying to address mistakes. If Tom Brady throw an interception and his coach tells him he shouldn't have made that throw and that he needs to make adjustments, is the coach calling him incompetent? No, he's telling him that he made a mistake and that he needs to make adjustments.

 

I never insulted you as a player. The closest thing I did was saying that you don't have an excuse for being unable to complete content with a Commando/Sage pair of Tatooine-level--because you don't. That is one of the top 5 most powerful and versatile class pair compositions in the game. If you find yourself unable to complete heroic 2's with two minute long CC (Concussive Round at lvl 22, Force Lift--capable of hitting 3 targets with points in Balance), 2-3 knockbacks (Concussive Charge, Sage knockback, SS if talented), multiple short-term stuns (Cryo grenade, Full-Auto, Project, Plasma Grenade, Force Quake, MV, Force Stun, Sticky Grenade), 1-3 slows (Telekenic Throw, Sweltering Heat if Assault, Cover Fire in a few levels), 2 cleanses, a dedicated interrupt and two classes that can throw off-heals, then yes, that would make you a bad player.

 

If you were having trouble because you didn't realize all of that, then it would make you an inexperience player that has room to improve.

 

I'll admit to calling you a whiner, but only because your declaration that you don't want help from players because you want BioWare to fix all your problems is a classic whine. "I don't want to be a better player! I want BioWare to bend to my whims!"

 

 

 

Nothing that I told you was outside of your level range. If you're on Tatooine, you're between level 23 and 29 on average. That means you have access to all the skills I listed and all the talents that I listed. If your tank characters are dying more quickly that could be one of two things: either there is some kind of armor bug (one that I have not encountered on any of my characters--all of whom wear heavy armor or have companions that do), or your companions are in need of a gear upgrade. If you don't find advice directed at a specific problem that you've mentioned helpful, but don't also say why it's unhelpful, that's on you. You never specified whether your companions' gear is up to date. Is it? It's a yes or no question, and would go a long way towards finding out if there actually is a bug by removing that variable from the equation.

 

 

 

Whenever someone posts a thread like this, you're going to get player input. it comes with the territory. And for the record, spouting broad generalities about what you're doing without providing specific information and then proceeding to tell me that I don't know what I'm talking about is neither answering an inquiry nor particularly polite. Nor have you been honest in your representation of your difficulties, as you yourself have admitted to exaggerating the difficulty you've been having.

 

 

 

 

Touche. Oh wait, I still never presented any false information as if it were the truth, so you'd still be wrong. But for argument's sake, allow me to clarify: Based upon my own experience, the experience of my guildmates, the experiences of people in this thread and others that disagree with you, and several TOR related websites that have not reported similar experiences, you are doing something wrong.

 

 

 

It's a video game forum. I've seen threads on this board from people saying they were quitting the game because they couldn't get Sgt. Jaxxo to join their crew, or because they aren't able to play a Gunnery Commando with a blaster rifle.

 

 

 

Fine, don't take my advice. Go ahead and ask others; chances are they're going to say and ask the exact same things I did, only with probably more snark. Assuming they deign to tell you anything other than "L2P nub."

 

Or just continue to beg BioWare to "fix" everything, because it's clearly impossible that you might be doing anything wrong, right?

 

Rex, you are making assumptions on information you don't have. Our Commando/Sage duo left Tatooine before 1.2. You're reading all sorts of things into statements that weren't there.

 

Again, I never said we couldn't complete regular content or Heroic 2 content. I said the health on our commandos was going down at a much higher rate than before: this at all levels of content. Try going back and reading. Using the phrase "dying quicker" means our health rapiclly dropping compared to before. The only mission I mentioned that we didn't complete was the Hero 4 sand people chieftan on Tatooine with two people.

[azhrione]

Rex, you are making assumptions on information you don't have. Our Commando/Sage duo left Tatooine before 1.2. You're reading all sorts of things into statements that weren't there.

 

Again, I never said we couldn't complete regular content or Heroic 2 content. I said the health on our commandos was going down at a much higher rate than before: this at all levels of content. Try going back and reading. Using the phrase "dying quicker" means our health rapiclly dropping compared to before. The only mission I mentioned that we didn't complete was the Hero 4 sand people chieftan on Tatooine with two people.

 

You need to post some combat logs to support your assertion. You can also go to Ask Mr. Robot and fill out a character profile with your spec and gear so we can take a look and see what is going wrong. You should not be taking a significantly greater amount of damage as mitigation was changed by at most 5%. I would suggest your perception of higher damage is based upon slightly lower DPS from both Sage and Commando, combined with the new need to use your CC abilities or adjust your rotation.

 

I have not noticed any amount of lesser mitigation from PVE content, however the lower DPS at the highest end has made some content a lot less trivial than it was before. In that respect, it isn't that the content is harder, it just takes longer to do and is thus not always worth the effort.

[Valhalyn]

Learn to kite instead of standing there letting something beat on you if you arent using a Tank Companion...

[Philosomanic]

I can't comment on Trooper survivability before and after 1.2. However, I can comment on overall trooper survivability.

 

I'm coming over to my Vanguard from a lvl 50 Shadow. The defense increase is pretty incredible. On my Shadow, I took several defensive talents at the expense of DPS because I hated being so squishy. On my Vanguard, I'm full DPS and still can take significantly more damage than my Shadow.

 

If you guys really did drop so much in survivability, then you should have. Even as things are right now, you have high defenses. If you were really that much higher but could still put out heavy DPS, then Troopers were severely unbalanced. All I can say with certainty is that Vanguard survivability is great compared to Shadow, and landscape mobs are incredibly easy.

 

I ran with my ranged DPS companion (Aric equivalent) on my Shadow, because I enjoy a challenge. I would be able to take down landscape mobs, but it was always a challenge. I was frequently at 50% health or less after a standard fight (1 strong 2-3 normal/weak). I can go through the same fights on my Vanguard with 85% health or more remaining. If Mortar Volley is up, then make that 100%.

 

You have great defenses. Troopers rock. That is all.

[Star-ranger]

You need to post some combat logs to support your assertion. You can also go to Ask Mr. Robot and fill out a character profile with your spec and gear so we can take a look and see what is going wrong. You should not be taking a significantly greater amount of damage as mitigation was changed by at most 5%. I would suggest your perception of higher damage is based upon slightly lower DPS from both Sage and Commando, combined with the new need to use your CC abilities or adjust your rotation.

 

I have not noticed any amount of lesser mitigation from PVE content, however the lower DPS at the highest end has made some content a lot less trivial than it was before. In that respect, it isn't that the content is harder, it just takes longer to do and is thus not always worth the effort.

 

Combat Logs: In order to verify a difference we'd have to have pre 1.2 logs and they didn't have combat logs pre 1.2 . Also there's no way to go back pre 1.2 and gather numbers. So how would combat logs be of help in verifying the differnce in defense?

 

The only evidence I can give is anecdotal, and amounts to: after repeating a repeatable mission on Alderon the opposing MOBs chewed through my defenses like paper in a mission significantly faster than before...and (on on Taris) my wife's commando went down faster along (with our companions) in a repeated mission we'd previously done much better at... and over all our commandos are getting a whole lot more damge vs. MOBs in general, even when using appropriate CC, use of companions, and tactics. Of course, you don't always get the chance to set things up the way you want in every situation, unecpected things happen and missions don't always go the same each time you play them. The point being we've noticed an over all decline in the fun factor for these characters.

[Star-ranger]

I can't comment on Trooper survivability before and after 1.2. However, I can comment on overall trooper survivability.

 

I'm coming over to my Vanguard from a lvl 50 Shadow. The defense increase is pretty incredible. On my Shadow, I took several defensive talents at the expense of DPS because I hated being so squishy. On my Vanguard, I'm full DPS and still can take significantly more damage than my Shadow.

 

If you guys really did drop so much in survivability, then you should have. Even as things are right now, you have high defenses. If you were really that much higher but could still put out heavy DPS, then Troopers were severely unbalanced. All I can say with certainty is that Vanguard survivability is great compared to Shadow, and landscape mobs are incredibly easy.

 

I ran with my ranged DPS companion (Aric equivalent) on my Shadow, because I enjoy a challenge. I would be able to take down landscape mobs, but it was always a challenge. I was frequently at 50% health or less after a standard fight (1 strong 2-3 normal/weak). I can go through the same fights on my Vanguard with 85% health or more remaining. If Mortar Volley is up, then make that 100%.

 

You have great defenses. Troopers rock. That is all.

 

Can't talk about Vanguards, my wife and I don't have Vanguards, we have Commandos. Is there a difference between them? I believe there probably is. Commandos are intended to be ranged for the most part, Vanguards are intended to get up close and personal... like the difference between Sage and Shadow.

 

I can't say what's going on with your Vanguard, all I can say is my commando doesn't stand up and take it like they did before.

[azhrione]

Combat Logs: In order to verify a difference we'd have to have pre 1.2 logs and they didn't have combat logs pre 1.2 . Also there's no way to go back pre 1.2 and gather numbers. So how would combat logs be of help in verifying the differnce in defense?

 

The only evidence I can give is anecdotal, and amounts to: after repeating a repeatable mission on Alderon the opposing MOBs chewed through my defenses like paper in a mission significantly faster than before...and (on on Taris) my wife's commando went down faster along (with our companions) in a repeated mission we'd previously done much better at... and over all our commandos are getting a whole lot more damge vs. MOBs in general, even when using appropriate CC, use of companions, and tactics. Of course, you don't always get the chance to set things up the way you want in every situation, unecpected things happen and missions don't always go the same each time you play them. The point being we've noticed an over all decline in the fun factor for these characters.

 

By looking at your combat logs and gear, someone could work towards reproducing your results. It would also give a lot of insight as to what rotations you are using, use of CC, which companions you have out, etc.

 

You are making a claim, to the contrary of others, that something invisible was changed that made us paperdolls compared to the previous patches. The burden of proof lies with you as you are making this assertion.

 

For example take these two statements:

 

I take a lot more damage now after 1.2, something changed and I don't like it.

 

I take a lot more damage now because after a 10% reduction in damage from Grav Round combat takes longer to resolve and I don't like it.

 

The first statement is QQ, the second is pointing out a legitimate cause. Based upon patch notes, there are a couple of things that would cause you to take more damage, at your level. A 5% nerf to Charged Barrier, and slightly lower DPS from Grav Round causing combat to take longer. I have seen no proof of underlying changes to mob damage, armor, hps, or other things related to surviability.

 

Causality is universal, it is just a matter of observation and investigation.

[mykaels]

The irony for me is, I agree with him, this class is much less fun for me. I went through the forums, adjusted my rotation and play style. But I used to tear through everything with Aric, now I have to methodically use specific rotations for everything with Dorne, whom I cannot stand.

 

The game play is different, though completely workable. I am now just going to finish out chapter two for the legacy endurance buff and ditch commando. I agree that it is no longer fun, I do not agree that a sage/commando should in any way take heavy damage or be unplayable. I would do damn near anything to have a sage play with me.

 

Commando/sage with Dorne and Qyzen is obscene, borderline apocalyptic.

[Philosomanic]

The irony for me is, I agree with him, this class is much less fun for me. I went through the forums, adjusted my rotation and play style. But I used to tear through everything with Aric, now I have to methodically use specific rotations for everything with Dorne, whom I cannot stand.

 

The game play is different, though completely workable. I am now just going to finish out chapter two for the legacy endurance buff and ditch commando. I agree that it is no longer fun, I do not agree that a sage/commando should in any way take heavy damage or be unplayable. I would do damn near anything to have a sage play with me.

 

Commando/sage with Dorne and Qyzen is obscene, borderline apocalyptic.

 

If you're a commando, you should be using either M1-4X or Tanno Vik. They'll take less damage than you will, they'll keep you from being attacked (which pushes back your activation times), and you can heal them to get through tricky stuff. Because you won't be dealing with pushback, I'd actually wager that a tank companion will allow you to kill faster than a DPS/Healing companion.

 

If you're playing a cast-time nuker/healer and using a DPS or healing companion, it's not a class issue. It's an L2P issue. Seriously, spend some credits/commendations to get M1-4X half-decent gear, put him in tank mode, and learn to play with him. He'll take far less damage than you do, and it should be pretty easy to keep him alive with heals and stuns. Meanwhile, you'll be free to take down enemies without any pressure on you.

 

 

 

 

Can't talk about Vanguards, my wife and I don't have Vanguards, we have Commandos. Is there a difference between them? I believe there probably is. Commandos are intended to be ranged for the most part, Vanguards are intended to get up close and personal... like the difference between Sage and Shadow.

 

I can't say what's going on with your Vanguard, all I can say is my commando doesn't stand up and take it like they did before.

 

In terms of survivability, DPS Vanguards and Commandos are the same. If I go tank spec, I get additional defenses. But as a DPS Vanguard, my defenses are Reflexive Shield and heavy armor, which you also have. If anything, you actually have higher defenses with your knockback and the ability to self-heal (although that's not usually practical in battle).

 

I am more capable in a toe-to-toe fight thanks to my lack of cast times, but that shouldn't be a problem for you once you get M1-4X.

Edited April 24, 2012 by Philosomanic

[azhrione]

If you're a commando, you should be using either M1-4X or Tanno Vik.

 

Quoted for Truth!

 

Plus Forex and Tanno have the best in game dialog of all the companions.

[Philosomanic]

Quoted for Truth!

 

Plus Forex and Tanno have the best in game dialog of all the companions.

 

Forex is by far my favorite companion from both Shadow and Trooper. He's just so hilariously fanatical. I've been enjoying him since the very first conversation you have with him after he joins Havoc Squad. He talks about how this is a nice ship, and then says that we'll "Soar this durasteel eagle into the heart of the empire" and hit them where it hurts (or something to that effect).

 

Priceless ^^

[Redcorn]

While you level you may want to invest more heavily in preservation talents...like extra armor percentage, add heal percentage if you are having problems surviving in PVE while leveling. My leveling came pre 1.2 so my companion reasoning may not be sound now, but it works for my lvl 50 dailies etc. With Elara and my CC I can handle 2 man heroics solo, but I am geared in Rakatta and Columi. I kill faster with my cat friend and my droid....I never found any of my companions to be tanky enough to help me, but that might be the way I have them geared.

[ArchangelLBC]

If you're a commando, you should be using either M1-4X or Tanno Vik. They'll take less damage than you will, they'll keep you from being attacked (which pushes back your activation times), and you can heal them to get through tricky stuff. Because you won't be dealing with pushback, I'd actually wager that a tank companion will allow you to kill faster than a DPS/Healing companion.

 

If you're playing a cast-time nuker/healer and using a DPS or healing companion, it's not a class issue. It's an L2P issue. Seriously, spend some credits/commendations to get M1-4X half-decent gear, put him in tank mode, and learn to play with him. He'll take far less damage than you do, and it should be pretty easy to keep him alive with heals and stuns. Meanwhile, you'll be free to take down enemies without any pressure on you.

 

Couldn't disagree with you more honestly. Have had no downtime since the day I got Elara and while changes have nerfed grav round my experience in dailies says still go with Elara. Still no downtime, cast times are a nonissue with the pushback tier 2 talent, you never have to worry about healing, and you can solo the daily heroics.

 

Taking less damage than I do means nothing if Elara can always keep me healed through it.

[Philosomanic]

Couldn't disagree with you more honestly. Have had no downtime since the day I got Elara and while changes have nerfed grav round my experience in dailies says still go with Elara. Still no downtime, cast times are a nonissue with the pushback tier 2 talent, you never have to worry about healing, and you can solo the daily heroics.

 

Taking less damage than I do means nothing if Elara can always keep me healed through it.

 

Well, that's great if you can make it work. Just means you're a good player, and you can go for a sup-par comapnion for faster kills or more challenge and still pull it off. I should probably be playing with Elara as a Vanguard, but I still keep Aric out because it's more fun.

 

However, especially if you're struggling, a tank companion is the best match for a healer. They compensate for your weaknesses (lower defenses, cast times) and complement your strengths (their tanking matches your healing and massive DPS). They'll take far less damage than you do (if geared), and they have significantly higher DPS than your healing companion. Also, they'll raise your own DPS from you not having to worry about pushbacks. Even if pushbacks are 75% negated by a talent, they're still lowering your DPS.

[jedip_enguin]

Forex and Tanno are hilariously squishy unless you;re willing to heal them full time, and unless you turn off most of their abilities they break CC like it was going out of style.

 

I tried using Forex when I got him, because he's awesome, but his coolness is severely overshadowed by his total inability to survive a fight involving any strong mobs without dying.

 

This is of course, from a Gunnery perspective, and I understand CM's have much more fun with them (though I've heard some of them argue that since Jorgan does better dps its faster to use him and just heal a bit more.