Infiltration Parses

[ragamer]

Admittedly I am too critical on DoTs as such

 

DoTs have their use... Luckily for the survivality of the Infil specc on PvE, EC is full of burst DPS checks were Infil has a huge advantage over Balance.

 

I got the chance to play EC last boss and the important parts I could get some data from similarly geared (Remember that gear for Balance is slightly different than for Infil) Shadows (Full Rakata with some BH... Each Shadow with more or less gear distribution adapted to each of the speccs):

 

- Bombardiers. Infil: 2.1k DPS. Balance: 1.1k DPS (Balance shadow was using SS in his build, btw). My Infil DPS was a bit impaired because I was 1st Stunner on them, meaning that most of the time I had to reserve GCDs for doing a precisse Force Stun on them.

- Walker vulnerable periods. Infil: 1.8k DPS. Balance: 1.4k DPS. (We both were reserving our CDs for the Walker vulnerability periods... So the above is the average of the 2+1 Walker periods. NO Adrenal was used... But stims and full raid buffs were present).

 

The above averages come from just 2 sessions (Were we both stood together)... They were more or less average performance (With some lucky streaks on Upheaval procs against the Walker that could result in an extra 100 DPS theoretically).

 

In the minefield minigame the differences were slightly less against the Probes but here I got some really lucky streaks with Upheaval that net 1.6k DPS (Infil) vs 1.3k DPS (Balance)... So I need to wait for other sessions that show a better average (We one shotted this boss... so I could only get 1 fight recorded ).

 

 

We were both using ACT with SWTOR parsing plugin as our analisys tool and we were manualy spliting the DPS against each type of mob (Very easy to do on this EC encounters, btw).

 

For completion in the other "more steady" (OFC with a pinch of salt... Because even Commander V has the anoying knockback) EC encounters (Again I could only got 1 fight recorded ):

 

- T&Z. Infil: 1.1k DPS, Balance: 1.29k DPS

- F&S. Infil: 1.2k DPS, Balance: 1.2k DPS (Here it's tricky because of the swap to adds and the imposibility for Balance to do AOE because of the Shield Pods... So it's basically a single target fight with frequent swaps, which, ofc benefits Infil over balance).

- Commander V. Infil: 1.1k DPS, Balance: 1.3k DPS (We were both affected by 2 Explosive Mines... So that random chance "balanced" on this single fight).

 

 

EDIT: My Infil performance is overloaded on Final boss because I was always reserving a full force bar and 5xExit Strategy for the next Bombardier (And most of the time also had rdy 2xCV+2xCS for the 1st Project on them)... Meaning that I was sacrifying DPS on regular adds to be able to increase it on Bombardiers (or the Probe in the minefield).

Edited April 25, 2012 by ragamer

[Skolops]

Haven't tried it against the ops dummy, but against the PvP dummy (purchased on ship) my infiltration shadow peaks at bursts of 2200-2400 w/ Battle Readiness, Force Potency, and a power relic, can sustain for 10 or so GCDs at around 1400 - 1500 after that, and eventually settles in around 1150 - 1200.

[ragamer]

Haven't tried it against the ops dummy

 

Ops dummy has higher kinetic mitigation... So the numbers should decrease. On Real Raids Ops you have around 1, 2 (Or even 3 if you have a good class balance) armor debuffs on that should balance this for the kinetic section of Infil DPS (The one that's the main responsible of our burst DPS coming from a full force bar)... I have a pending recheck on if armor debuffs still stack the way they did before 1.2, btw (On the particular burst scenarios in EC, Commando & JK debuffs are slow stacking so their impact is also lessened... So everything is a bit harder to "theorize" tbh).

Edited April 25, 2012 by ragamer

[Typeslice]

Managed to hold my own in EV. On droid melee hide during missile barrage whilst ranged stay out and DPS so thats why there is such a discrepancy on that. On Gharj, was doing well but tank DC'd half way through so I switched to combat tech and tanked half the fight. Soa is only real fight where we all DPS'd equally.

 

As long as you're decently geared, you should be stacking for AE heals and DPSing through the missile barrage; but that's probably a discussion for a different thread

[Tyresog]

Thanks for the hard data on EC operation. I had the exact same experience but only anecdotal evidence (didn't parse it out)

 

In truth, I was bashing my own spec (INF) pre-1.2 because I feared we had no group utility (unlike sentinel buffs), were melee dps (ranged is easier in every mmo), no aoe damage, and would parse same as other dps in ops. So my concern was why the heck bring a shadow when you can bring a sent? I still have the concern somewhat, but experiencing myself that EC has a lot of mechanics that require burst dps I feel a bit better.

Edited April 25, 2012 by Tyresog

[Deathstroke]

Here is my parse. Someone mentioned using your energy regain properly....that is a must. This class is too CD dependent.

 

FYI I was using consular buff, BC stem and power relic and BC adrenal when off CD.

 

http://swtor.wildking.net/log.php?id=640&csi=6&cei=7&cec=1

[anstalt]

Here is my parse. Someone mentioned using your energy regain properly....that is a must. This class is too CD dependent.

 

FYI I was using consular buff, BC stem and power relic and BC adrenal when off CD.

 

http://swtor.wildking.net/log.php?id=640&csi=6&cei=7&cec=1

 

That's an impressive parse considering ur purely self-buffed!

 

What is your priority order for skills if you dont mind me asking? From the looks of it, you aren't using force breach until you get to 5 stacks of exit strategy which accounts for the low amount of uses compared to other skills.

 

I'm guessing your gear in general is a fair bit better than my own simply through the values you are scoring. Your min non-crit shadow strike was 2k for example, whereas mine is normally in the 1600 range for a non-crit on the ops dummy.

 

Anyways, good effort dude, im jealous!

[kelnis]

Should note that the target there is not the operations dummy, and thus not really an accurate test to compare with. Certainly not a bad parse, but its very easy to maintain 1500~ dps on them as there is less/no damage/crit suppression.

[kelnis]

Spec:7/31/3

Gear: http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/character/2e001c9b-3669-4b4d-b2ab-126168012dc6

Buffs: Rakata Stim, Force Valor - No other buffs

 

Test 1 - Operations Dummy - 3 min 35 seconds - 1220 DPS

http://www.torparse.com/a/18860?q=MXwxODg2MHgxNDYwNTI5NDdhMTQ2MDUzNzcweDE=

 

Test 2 - Operations Dummy - 6 min 50 seconds - 1157 DPS

http://www.torparse.com/a/18865?q=MXwxODg2NXgxNDYwNjg0NjJhMTQ2MDcwMDAxeDE=

 

Test 3 - Combat Training Dummy [Level 10] - 3 min 31 seconds - 1535 DPS

http://www.torparse.com/a/18876?q=MXwxODg3NngxNDYxNjMyMThhMTQ2MTY0MDIxeDE=

[anstalt]

Test 3 - Combat Training Dummy [Level 10] - 3 min 31 seconds - 1535 DPS

http://www.torparse.com/a/18876?q=MXwxODg3NngxNDYxNjMyMThhMTQ2MTY0MDIxeDE=

 

Forgive my ignorance, but what/where are the combat training dummies?

 

Its good to see that your values are similar to my own on the ops dummies, was worried again that I was massively behind!

[Exiled-Phoenix]

Sith inquisitor/assassin here

 

Found this thread on google when looking for comparisons and i'm in the same boat as most people here.

As deception (middle skill tree) i was doing 1200+- parses.

I have 1722 willpower and 32 crit/73 surge.

DPS ratio seems to flux alot depending on critical hits.

 

I've tried the right skill tree (madness/ DoTs) and my parse is even lower, altho i am not use to playing that skill tree at all.

Selhealing, AoE and range on it does seem to make it more usefull for Ops but, i still think infiltration is better overall.

 

 

As for other dps classes, i was going up against a maurader - double wielding - and he hit 2k on the parse against a Ops dummy with 500k done.

Most likely its bugged because we hitted it together and his time was only 3.5 minutes while mine was 6 minutes duration.

 

 

Are we really that much behind on other dps classes or are the DPS meters just to inaccurate to provide an actual solid number?

[Cthuga]

*sigh* I don't post a lot here, but on our raid last night (just a straight up HM Karagga's) I finally took the time to get a DPS parser running (MOX).

 

Of course now I yearn for the days of blissful ignorance when I could believe that while I wasn't doing the same DPS as our Sentinel I was competitive.

 

I will respec to tank now and accept my role as bag of hps.

 

We're just not even close to competitive over the course of a long fight.

 

I shouldn't be surprised that the class whose fuel goes up out-sustains (by a *wide* margin) the class whose fuel goes down.

 

I guess in the grand scheme of things, if your raid is doing enough DPS to beat enrage timers that's all that really matters, but trying to compare Shadow DPS to Sentinel, well, we're just not even in the same league and should probably stop trying until such time as they address the massive disparities in sustainable DPS.

[Feoktist]

Are we really that much behind on other dps classes or are the DPS meters just to inaccurate to provide an actual solid number?

Our Sentinel normally 1.5-2 times more dps than any other DD on a single target, and 3-4 times more than the tanks. Its not that Shadows are screwed, it's that Sentinels are a bit OP at the moment.

I will respec to tank now and accept my role as bag of hps.

 

We're just not even close to competitive over the course of a long fight.

..but on the trash pulls Sentinel doesn't shine that much really. Normally Sages and Commando output more dps, and on packs of 4-5 mobs grouped together I outdps the Sentinel even as a tank. Class specialization, I guess.

[Cthuga]

..but on the trash pulls Sentinel doesn't shine that much really. Normally Sages and Commando output more dps, and on packs of 4-5 mobs grouped together I outdps the Sentinel even as a tank. Class specialization, I guess.

 

I appreciate the positive feedback and encouragement, but really, trash pulls? That's the consolation prize?

 

I think Allen Iverson said something about practice in a press event awhile ago, this is a lot like my opinion of the importance of trash, or the DPS meters related to them.

 

As I said, I've accepted that the best thing the shadow can be for a raid is a bag of hps.

[Exiled-Phoenix]

Our Sentinel normally 1.5-2 times more dps than any other DD on a single target, and 3-4 times more than the tanks. Its not that Shadows are screwed, it's that Sentinels are a bit OP at the moment.

 

..but on the trash pulls Sentinel doesn't shine that much really. Normally Sages and Commando output more dps, and on packs of 4-5 mobs grouped together I outdps the Sentinel even as a tank. Class specialization, I guess.

 

Makes no sense really, a deception/infiltration is purely single target dps, we should shine on boss's.

I've started stacking my crit and surge past the cap to see if it will stabilize my dps output with more critical hits and higher hits.

[Bilirubin]

Actually, Sever Force hits very, very hard. The average damage over the duration of the DoT is 2700 or so, but it only costs a global cooldown to cast it. At that rate its effective damage per cast time is nearly 1800, far better than double strike or project, and even better than Shadow Strike, which on Karagga averaged 1568 damage per cast time. It's also slightly more efficient in terms of damage per force. The reason it looks like Shadow Strike is such a better ability is that I'm only casting Sever Force every 18-20 seconds while I'm hitting with a shadow strike every 8 or so. Having a quite potent and cheap to use DoT going while hitting Shadow Strike between refreshing it is contributing to much higher overall DPS.

 

What does your build look like?

[VulcanLogic]

What does your build look like?

 

This

 

There's some play on Containment and Focused Insight, but no difference in terms of DPS if you wanted to switch to Mind Ward or Jedi Resistance.

[Rashne]

I wouldn't put much stock in Sent's testing on dummies atm. I believe a dev said recently that the dummies currently do not accurately reflect the extra miss chance of off hand weapons for dual wielding classes.

[ragamer]

I wouldn't put much stock in Sent's testing on dummies atm. I believe a dev said recently that the dummies currently do not accurately reflect the extra miss chance of off hand weapons for dual wielding classes.

 

^^

This... With parsers arriving to a game you get a subset of players lurking around forums, the "Parser Heroes", that go around showing their results in the most favorable circumstances without informing ppl about the details...

 

...They also will show you comparative parsers on "real" fights when other DPSers are badly impaired by the random events on them... So learn to dissect a combat log to spot anomalies like: Very high crit chances, impossible to-hit figures or anomalously high hits.

 

 

Returning to average parsers, you also have to take into account group synergies. Sentinels are buff givers, so, on their "fully buffed" solo parsers they have the effects of their own raid-wide buffs... On a real combat the shadows, that are strictly buff receivers, are also buffed when a sentinel is close... So if you want to learn about your class on a given fight through parsers, ALWAYS ask you why things happen or which synergies are affecting you on a given session.

Edited April 29, 2012 by ragamer

[Rafe_Vidar]

^^

This... With parsers arriving to a game you get a subset of players lurking around forums, the "Parser Heroes", that go around showing their results in the most favorable circumstances without informing ppl about the details...

 

...They also will show you comparative parsers on "real" fights when other DPSers are badly impaired by the random events on them... So learn to dissect a combat log to spot anomalies like: Very high crit chances, impossible to-hit figures or anomalously high hits.

 

 

Returning to average parsers, you also have to take into account group synergies. Sentinels are buff givers, so, on their "fully buffed" solo parsers they have the effects of their own raid-wide buffs... On a real combat the shadows, that are strictly buff receivers, are also buffed when a sentinel is close... So if you want to learn about your class on a given fight through parsers, ALWAYS ask you why things happen or which synergies are affecting you on a given session.

 

Not just that, but remember most parsers count our VANISH as a end/begin combat. This, I'm quite sure, hurts us as for Infiltration it's a vital and key ability need to be planned for and used accordingly during burst phases. If our fights can't be recorded correctly or we must adjust our optimal 'rotations' how much weight of trust can we stack on our own numbers? I do believe, as a whole, Shadow dps numbers are underwhelming in most settings, but I don't believe they are as far behind as others want us to believe.

[ragamer]

Not just that, but remember most parsers count our VANISH as a end/begin combat.

 

You really need to know the details of each parser to evaluate if this has an effect. With ACT, indeed, you have to manually combine the events after each Force Cloak to get the average DPS but as no DPS event is really lost on the parsing you can get all information you need.

 

With the varied online tools that are around is harder to say but their Developers can easily check for Force Cloak use and create a special "patch" to ignore the next "end combat "event.... If not, Scoundrel & Shadow parsers will suffer from meassure window effects that can alter a lot the DPS recorded of this burst (or better put cyclic) classes (Scoundrels suffer less because DA is done always BEFORE their bursts, to be able to use SF on long fights... They do not have the Action bar depedency Infil has, but for example, on combat starts it's quite common to trigger a double SF using DA which will lead to something similar as what happens to us in middle combat).

 

The DPS meassure window, in general, has an impact on the final DPS meassured... That's why a good log for a burst capable class should start when the user spends his/her CDs to trigger the burst and end exacly when those same buffs get out of CD (But aren't used again)... That way what you see is a good meassure of what a full cycle is able to do. If you take any other meassure window you can bias the result up or down. On the typical Infil fight, FC is usually done in the middle of a burst (Because you already have an almost full force bar and do not want to waste any second of respite) meaning that a default parser will basically split your combat in the middle of your burst that, in turn, will lead to a systematic underevaluation of that DPS peak.

Edited April 30, 2012 by ragamer