Carnage vs Anni in pvp, suggestions?

[Luceus]

Yesterday I spent the day messing around with the ole LOLSmash of Rage, but frankly, despite decent numbers, it's just a boring spec. It seems kind of slow paced for me, and reading a few comments, I don't think I'm alone.

 

Don't get me wrong, it's a powerful spec, but isn't grabbing me the way Anni did when I first tried that.

 

That said, I'm debating on trying Carnage, as my main goal in pvp is to disrupt healing and be able to eliminate the strong targets by myself while the rest of the team mindlessly attacks tanks who are being healed by 2-3 healers standing back unabated. (the life of a solo queue pvp player)

 

Does Carnage have the good 1v1 fighting ability, or is it more of a CC type of spec? I see things like rooting while ravage, which appears nice, but can I leap at a healer and take one down like I could with Anni?

 

Thanks for any advice. I'm sure people will just say "well, try out Carnage to see", but I'm more looking for comments from people who have played it to see their experiences with the spec.

[Orielensis]

Yesterday I spent the day messing around with the ole LOLSmash of Rage, but frankly, despite decent numbers, it's just a boring spec. It seems kind of slow paced for me, and reading a few comments, I don't think I'm alone.

 

Don't get me wrong, it's a powerful spec, but isn't grabbing me the way Anni did when I first tried that.

 

That said, I'm debating on trying Carnage, as my main goal in pvp is to disrupt healing and be able to eliminate the strong targets by myself while the rest of the team mindlessly attacks tanks who are being healed by 2-3 healers standing back unabated. (the life of a solo queue pvp player)

 

Does Carnage have the good 1v1 fighting ability, or is it more of a CC type of spec? I see things like rooting while ravage, which appears nice, but can I leap at a healer and take one down like I could with Anni?

 

Thanks for any advice. I'm sure people will just say "well, try out Carnage to see", but I'm more looking for comments from people who have played it to see their experiences with the spec.

 

Before 1.2 yes you could do all those things as Carnage. And, as you say, it's quite a good spec for a good, objective focussed player who queues solo so is often surrounded by not-so-helpful team mates.

 

Post-1.2 I am still evaluating things. The buff to ravage is very welcome as it was a major part of my rotation/priority system anyway. The massacre spam is probably better now too because the ataru procs have been boosted a bit and other skills mean you can use fury abilities like berserk more often. Also you can now spam your aoe slash instead but I haven't found a good opportunity to do that yet (I am thinking in front of the doors in Voidstar etc).

 

I think it's clear taking down healers is now much easier but that's due to stat weighting of expertise. (Although it's good the trauma effect from deadly throw can't be cleansed now.)

 

I used to be able to defeat almost all of the best players on my server pretty consistently 1 v 1 (this was essentially a marauder speciality in either anni or carn) but now I'm not so sure how things will be with other dps classes. Having developed a lot of survivability with better gear (full BM just before 1.2) I am concerned I am now back to being the type of glass cannon I was as a new, under-geared 50.

 

With or without defensive cds up I am going down much, much quicker. The new expertise emphasis on damage favours a burst class like a Carnage marauder but I have a feeling it favours a front-weighted damage from stealth class like operatives and scoundrels even more.

 

The other major thing you will get as a Carnage mara is the enhanced Predation you used to have as anni, but it now effects the whole ops not just a few around you when you pop it. Used correctly this is pretty immense, especially in huttball, the early stages of Alde and Novare, and when a door blows in Voidstar.

 

Definitely worth a try.

Edited April 13, 2012 by Orielensis

[arcadeboredom]

I specced into carnage yesterday too and my damage output is definitely better compared to annihilation.

 

Survivability is slightly less as i dont get the self heals of annihilation.

 

But i'm liking it so far. Love the burst of carnage.

[Luceus]

Thanks for the reply. I'm going to load in later and look at every aspect of that tree again to see if it fits my play style. One thing I'm really excited about is the root on ravage. Tired of them running away when I start it.

 

Whatever happened to the ability that grants a ton of rage when predation ended? I used to have something like that leveling up in the Rage tree. Was that removed or am I hallucinating? lol

[Luceus]

I specced into carnage yesterday too and my damage output is definitely better compared to annihilation.

 

Survivability is slightly less as i dont get the self heals of annihilation.

 

But i'm liking it so far. Love the burst of carnage.

 

Ugh, heals. That was my biggest draw to Anni considering (like mentioned above) I am a solo player for now. Rarely do I get heals, so any bit helped. Right before 1.2, I was a real, real tough kill, but I know the expertise has changed. Combine that with losing my heals in Anni may hurt me quite a bit.

[Omophorus]

Yesterday I spent the day messing around with the ole LOLSmash of Rage, but frankly, despite decent numbers, it's just a boring spec. It seems kind of slow paced for me, and reading a few comments, I don't think I'm alone.

 

Don't get me wrong, it's a powerful spec, but isn't grabbing me the way Anni did when I first tried that.

 

That said, I'm debating on trying Carnage, as my main goal in pvp is to disrupt healing and be able to eliminate the strong targets by myself while the rest of the team mindlessly attacks tanks who are being healed by 2-3 healers standing back unabated. (the life of a solo queue pvp player)

 

Does Carnage have the good 1v1 fighting ability, or is it more of a CC type of spec? I see things like rooting while ravage, which appears nice, but can I leap at a healer and take one down like I could with Anni?

 

Thanks for any advice. I'm sure people will just say "well, try out Carnage to see", but I'm more looking for comments from people who have played it to see their experiences with the spec.

 

Just to preface... I am not that experienced with Carnage spec, so I'm sure there's a lot I'm not doing to truly optimize its output (including gear mods...).

 

I took a chance after 1.2 to spec up, with this set of talents: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#100bcZhGRRRrrdGzZM.1

 

I spent about 20 minutes whacking the regular 50 training dummy on the Ziost Shadow, then played a few rounds of PVP.

 

My PVE gear is Columi main/off/head/body/hands/legs/feet/bracer, Tionese belt, purple, STR-aug'd R49 Might implants, and Rakata ear. My PVP gear is mostly BM except belt, head (remodded Champ), and offhand.

 

On the dummy, I could not get Carnage average DPS within 150 points of Anni. Without even making much use of trinket/adrenal, 1450-1500 DPS with Anni spec was a cakewalk. Breaking 1300 with Carnage spec was difficult. 1200-1250 was more common.

 

I suspect it's somewhat a L2P issue, but I was, when feasible, aligning one Gore with a Ravage/Scream combo, and the next with a Berserk Massacre spamfest (with a Scream thrown in near the end). I cannot think of a better way to maximize the burst window offhand, and I was keeping Gore, Scream, and Ravage on CD constantly. The frustrating thing with Carnage spec, for me, is that in theory you want to burn Berserk as soon as it's available for raw DPS output (if you're not building Fury, you're wasting Fury, and if you're not spending Berserk stacks as quickly as possible, you're delaying your ability to start building more Fury), but it's very hard to optimize its usage around Gore windows, especially with how strong Ravage now is.

 

Keep in mind also that was not on an Ops dummy (I want to re-respec today and test on the one in my ship). It's also not reflective of real combat with real environmental hazards and real melee DPS uptime. After doing Lost Island HM last night, there are a lot of times I felt that Carnage's burst would've been very nice compared to sustained Anni DPS, but losing the Berserk bleed heals would've also been painful (esp. on droid boss and final boss).

 

For PVP... gosh darn did I feel squishy. It didn't help that I was frequently focused by the other team (a commonplace occurrence... I'm a dedicated healer humper and objectives player, and the pubs have started to notice), but survivability was way, WAY down from Anni for my PVP play style. I think the central issue is a L2P one, and the way I currently play is not well-adapted to Carnage.

 

That being said, the pubs on my server are still trooper and sage stacking, and the number of knockbacks is obscene. I was really struggling to stay on targets long enough to make Gore valuable, whereas Anni's bleeds are much less uptime- and time-window-sensitive.

Edited April 13, 2012 by Omophorus

[VictorLototskyy]

Anni is better for solo queuing (new camouflage, self-heals) and bothering healers.

 

Carnage has better burst, predation bonus, but it doesn't have enough interrupts to kill good healers 1v1.

Edited April 13, 2012 by VictorLototskyy

[Luceus]

Excellent reply, that's just what I was looking for. You really helped me decide to just stay with Anni for a little while, considering it's what I know and do best, then when I'm geared fully up in at least BM and maybe some WH stuff, I can worry about switching specs around.

 

Right now I'm sitting at < 100 surge which is absolutely embarrassing and pathetic due to the horrible combo of champion / columi gear I have, but as soon as I get more BM pieces and can swap out some mods so all my stats are balanced, I'll worry about speccing for optimized performance.

 

Another note, what are you using to measure your DPS? Does that ACT tool work with SWTOR now?

 

Thanks again for all the replies

[Orielensis]

Anni is better for solo queuing (new camouflage, self-heals) and bothering healers.

 

Carnage has better burst, predation bonus, but it doesn't have enough interrupts to kill good healers 1v1.

 

What?

 

You're clearly talking post-1.2, as you mention predation bonus. Every dps class in the game can now solo healers. Carnage marauders could do it before the 1.2 buffs and expertise changes against all but the very best healers. Now even the very best healers are in serious trouble.

 

I have Disruption, Force Choke, Intimidating Roar, and (in the right circumstances) Force Charge. The cool down on Disruption is longer than for Anni and I can't Charge from less than 10m but that's still plenty. And due to roots and snares they can't get away from me.

[KaKiMi]

Carnage vs Annihilation...

 

Are we talking in terms of viability or are we talking spec vs spec in a 1v1?

 

Either way, in both situations. Carnage wins hands down.

Not only does Carnage harmonize the entire concept of a dual-wielder class, but we don't rely on bleeds to sustain our dps & pray for 1 skill that spikes dmg to acutally land on the target.

 

Nuff sed

 

PS - Whoever said we don't have enough interupts has a L2P issue.

You should only need 1 interupt on a healer to gimp him and tbh, deadly throw has a LOT more of a threat now that healing is (somewhat) nerfed and Trauma cannot be dispelled. Not to mention with Carnage, you can also immobilize the target (and Deadly/Crippling Throw immobilize cannot be dispelled thru cleanse)

Edited April 13, 2012 by KaKiMi

[Omophorus]

Excellent reply, that's just what I was looking for. You really helped me decide to just stay with Anni for a little while, considering it's what I know and do best, then when I'm geared fully up in at least BM and maybe some WH stuff, I can worry about switching specs around.

 

Right now I'm sitting at < 100 surge which is absolutely embarrassing and pathetic due to the horrible combo of champion / columi gear I have, but as soon as I get more BM pieces and can swap out some mods so all my stats are balanced, I'll worry about speccing for optimized performance.

 

Another note, what are you using to measure your DPS? Does that ACT tool work with SWTOR now?

 

Thanks again for all the replies

 

MOX Parser to do live parsing.

 

And yeah, by default Marauder PVP gear has pathetically little Surge (which bite both Carnage and Anni specs square in the tookus). My Champ gear was stuffed full of Pow/Surge mods from IA Columi gear, but I'm hesitant to swap PVE mods into post-1.2 BM gear due to Expertise changes. Sadly, it looks like the "easiest" fix is to start PVPing our faces off and converting over WZ comms to ranked comms and buying up War Hero gear. The new stuff is itemized much better, and there really aren't any Pow/Surge/Exp mods that I know of in BM tier.

[Luceus]

Anni is better for solo queuing (new camouflage, self-heals) and bothering healers.

 

Carnage has better burst, predation bonus, but it doesn't have enough interrupts to kill good healers 1v1.

 

 

I am trying to decide between the better camo or shorter CD on force jump. With all the KB's in pvp, I am finding myself using that a LOT. I think I can get a lot more use out of that than 2 extra seconds of camo.

 

Hard to say... here is the spec I am eying when I log in.

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#100bIrRMRMfsZhRMZM.1

 

When I tweak my gear more after getting some throwaway BM pieces I can strip, I'm going to drop the 1 point in accuracy and put it somewhere else, perhaps camo. See any issues with this?

[Luceus]

Wow, late replies have me second guessing going into Carnage again! haha... I need that training dummy and parser to test for myself, then try it out in a few matches.

[Omophorus]

I am trying to decide between the better camo or shorter CD on force jump. With all the KB's in pvp, I am finding myself using that a LOT. I think I can get a lot more use out of that than 2 extra seconds of camo.

 

Hard to say... here is the spec I am eying when I log in.

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#100bIrRMRMfsZhRMZM.1

 

When I tweak my gear more after getting some throwaway BM pieces I can strip, I'm going to drop the 1 point in accuracy and put it somewhere else, perhaps camo. See any issues with this?

 

I use basically that spec, except no points in Narrowed Hatred or Ravager (considering putting 2 there), and 3 in Malice as pre-1.2.

 

One thing the parser makes very clear is that 35-50% (depending on situation/uptime) of all Anni-spec damage comes from bleeds. The less time you spend humping a target, the higher percentage it is. Ravage is nasty as hell post-1.2 but without Carnage root it's still very easy to outrange before the last hit lands.

 

I am still considering dropping 2 points in Malice for 2 points in Ravager, because even if you're just blooping in the first 2 hits on a 1s GCD, it's noteworthy damage, and probably more than extra crit bleed ticks due to Berserk uptime.

 

Narrowed Hatred I see as an utter waste due to lack of Accuracy needs and BM itemization (even WH has enough). You're stuck taking it with Carnage spec to climb the tree, but there just aren't enough people stacking defense (at least not that you really need to worry about) for more than about 95% Acc to mean much.

[atreyuz]

MOX Parser to do live parsing.

 

And yeah, by default Marauder PVP gear has pathetically little Surge (which bite both Carnage and Anni specs square in the tookus). My Champ gear was stuffed full of Pow/Surge mods from IA Columi gear, but I'm hesitant to swap PVE mods into post-1.2 BM gear due to Expertise changes.

 

Are you sure?

 

http://i.imgur.com/8ccQC.png

 

first part is original enhancement with 25exp

 

Second part is 4/5 enhancement with power/surge from old IA champ gear.

 

 

 

Still too much accuracy for my likings tough. I usually sitted at 95%

Edited April 13, 2012 by atreyuz

[Omophorus]

Are you sure?

 

http://i.imgur.com/8ccQC.png

 

first part is original enhancement with 25exp

 

Second part is 4/5 enhancement with power/surge from old IA champ gear

 

Still too much accuracy for my liking tough. I usually sitted at 95%

 

I happily stand corrected.

[Luceus]

95% accuracy is roughly the goto? I was told 107%, glad I started visiting these forums.

 

I know I sound like a noob, and probably really are to the deep mechanics, but I want to make sure people know I rolled a Mara on day 1 of launch and aren't one of the FOTM crowd jumping on the bandwagon.

 

I've mostly just been a casual player for the first month or two, which put me at a big disadvantage with my gear compared to the war hero players that I've been facing.

[atreyuz]

95% accuracy is roughly the goto? I was told 107%, glad I started visiting these forums.

 

About accuracy I know as much as you...so if anyone more informed about it could make things clear.

 

I usually went to 95%, and it was 100% (when carnage specced 2/3 narrowed hatred+ 3% from ataru form)

Edited April 13, 2012 by atreyuz

[Foxcolt]

Are you sure?

 

http://i.imgur.com/8ccQC.png

 

first part is original enhancement with 25exp

 

Second part is 4/5 enhancement with power/surge from old IA champ gear.

 

 

 

Still too much accuracy for my likings tough. I usually sitted at 95%

 

More info pls..which enhancements did you replace? So you only lost 1% expertise by slotting 4 outa 5 enchantments with IA gear? So 100 expertise is roughly 1% at the 1kish level?

[atreyuz]

More info pls..which enhancements did you replace? So you only lost 1% expertise by slotting 4 outa 5 enchantments with IA gear? So 100 expertise is roughly 1% at the 1kish level?

 

I replaced boots/gloves/chest/legs BM enhancements (those with 25 exp each and **** loads of accuracy) with old enhancements from IA gear (something like 34power - 48surge, I cant remember the exact stats).

Edited April 13, 2012 by atreyuz

[Omophorus]

95% accuracy is roughly the goto? I was told 107%, glad I started visiting these forums.

 

I know I sound like a noob, and probably really are to the deep mechanics, but I want to make sure people know I rolled a Mara on day 1 of launch and aren't one of the FOTM crowd jumping on the bandwagon.

 

I've mostly just been a casual player for the first month or two, which put me at a big disadvantage with my gear compared to the war hero players that I've been facing.

 

Most players in PVP don't use gear or stims that increase their Defense rating. They have a flat 5% to avoid attacks. With 5% Acc, everything other than Assault will have 100% accuracy. Since Assault is 3 hits, the odds are astronomically bad that all 3 hits will miss, and so long as 1 lands, you still generate 2 rage. Acc beyond 95% basic (105% special) is wasted on everything except Defense-geared tanks.

 

108-109% is the currently theorized go-to for PVE content, as the testing which has been done leads to the belief that PVE enemies have somewhere around 8% defense chance (if they use Defense rating like players, there is a statistical fit at approximately 8.5% evade chance, but that's by no means confirmed).

Edited April 13, 2012 by Omophorus

[Luceus]

What do you guys think about this for a pvp carnage build to test out?

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#100bcZhrrRRrrdGzZM.1

[Blloodbane]

What do you guys think about this for a pvp carnage build to test out?

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#100bcZhrrRRrrdGzZM.1

 

I use the HECK out of Cloak of Pain, I would rather have that specced than battering assault, I build up plenty of rage as is...

 

I personally spec for more crit damage over accuracy as aturu form already gives a bonus to accuracy...

 

my 2 creds worth

[VictorLototskyy]

What?

 

You're clearly talking post-1.2, as you mention predation bonus. Every dps class in the game can now solo healers. Carnage marauders could do it before the 1.2 buffs and expertise changes against all but the very best healers. Now even the very best healers are in serious trouble.

 

I have Disruption, Force Choke, Intimidating Roar, and (in the right circumstances) Force Charge. The cool down on Disruption is longer than for Anni and I can't Charge from less than 10m but that's still plenty. And due to roots and snares they can't get away from me.

 

Hm? Carnage get predation bonus at 1.2

 

As for any dps can solo healers, you must be playing against a very bad healers. Other situation is when there're 2 healers and, let's say, tank guarding one you assisting. With Carnage you won't be able to kill healer and your interrupts (single 8/sec disruption) is not enough to not let him heal. With annihilation you completely lock it down having second healer to heal just him and tank.

 

p.s. It's my humble opinion based on my own experience and playing each tree for a while.

Edited April 13, 2012 by VictorLototskyy

[BDreason]

I actually love the playstyle of both Annih and Carnage... but for group PvP, especially with the current selection of WZ's, you cannot beat Rage. Having Undying Rage on a 45sec CD is enough to make Rage spec a must, but the build really shines because of it's ability to deal 4k+ damage to 5 targetsat once. I love Annih spec, but against a team with 2 healers and 2 guards... both Annih and Carnage is like pounding your head against a wall.

 

 

 

Just my 2 cents.