A Healer's 1.2 Grievances: The story of why healers are upset

[hairlessOrphan]

That isn't balance.

 

"Could neutralize or at least heavily pressure."

 

I don't play a class that has only one option (Deal damage, no stances, no secondary specs, almost no CC, very little utility) for a play style to "heavily pressure" a class. ... They could mez us, they could stun us, they could knock us back, they could deal damage to us, they could root us, they had all kinds of things that they could do.

 

We don't.

 

I actually agree that the idea of 1v1 balance is totally bonked, and that balance discussions should always be about raid composition and opportunity costs of including Class A over Class B.

 

But I want to point out something: interrupts, stuns, snares, mezzes, pushes, pulls, and roots are cross-class. The only thing healers could do that non-healers couldn't was ... heal. You picked a specific build that eschewed utility, which is absolutely a valid choice. But if you decide against utility, it's kind of bonked to complain that other people have more utility than you.

 

I'm just sayin'. NB: I'm not in any way saying that healers were balanced 1v1. I'm just saying this specific argument is kind of like...

[ProfessorWalsh]

I actually agree that the idea of 1v1 balance is totally bonked, and that balance discussions should always be about raid composition and opportunity costs of including Class A over Class B.

 

But I want to point out something: interrupts, stuns, snares, mezzes, pushes, pulls, and roots are cross-class. The only thing healers could do that non-healers couldn't was ... heal. You picked a specific build that eschewed utility, which is absolutely a valid choice. But if you decide against utility, it's kind of bonked to complain that other people have more utility than you.

 

I'm just sayin'. NB: I'm not in any way saying that healers were balanced 1v1. I'm just saying this specific argument is kind of like...

 

Not a specific build. The specific entire class.

 

Sentinels get a single three second channeled only stun that does very low damage and disallows us from attacking thus making it nearly useless. (Literally, hitting with our focus builder does almost as much damage as that three second channeled thing.)

 

Sentinels get a single short-term area of effect mez which breaks on any damage (even DoT damage).

 

Sentinels get one, or two snares depending on spec.

 

Sentinels get one, if they spec for it high in combat, two second root.

 

Sentinels get no knock backs.

Sentinels get no pulls.

Sentinels get no reliable self-heals.

 

What we can do to an enemy is very limited outside of simple damage. Yet Healers could neutralize us and kill us 100% of the time if they were any good. That wasn't balanced.

 

If you want a healer who can mitigate the only thing that I can do, then I want you to be limited to healing being the only thing that you can do. Meaning trade off your stun for a 3 second channeled stun that doesn't allow you to heal. Trade off your mez for an AoE Mez that breaks if you heal or anyone on your team heals anyone. Then get rid of your knock back and your rescue. Finally you lose the ability to do any damage what so ever, save for in one spec, and then you can only deal 2% of the target's HP in damage for 3 seconds at a time and to do this requires you to get 30 stacks of "Centering" first.

 

Then you can start effectively zeroing out my damage.

Edited April 20, 2012 by ProfessorWalsh

[Metalmac]

Not a specific build. The specific entire class.

 

Sentinels get a single three second channeled only stun that does very low damage and disallows us from attacking thus making it nearly useless. (Literally, hitting with our focus builder does almost as much damage as that three second channeled thing.)

 

Sentinels get a single short-term area of effect mez which breaks on any damage (even DoT damage).

 

Sentinels get one, or two snares depending on spec.

 

Sentinels get one, if they spec for it high in combat, two second root.

 

Sentinels get no knock backs.

Sentinels get no pulls.

Sentinels get no reliable self-heals.

 

What we can do to an enemy is very limited outside of simple damage. Yet Healers could neutralize us and kill us 100% of the time if they were any good. That wasn't balanced.

 

If you want a healer who can mitigate the only thing that I can do, then I want you to be limited to healing being the only thing that you can do. Meaning trade off your stun for a 3 second channeled stun that doesn't allow you to heal. Trade off your mez for an AoE Mez that breaks if you heal or anyone on your team heals anyone. Then get rid of your knock back and your rescue.

 

Then you can start effectively zeroing out my damage.

 

LOL for all those problems you ignore the crap load of damage you do in a very short amount of time to a squishy.

 

Those limitations are there as if not then you would be a 2 shot machine on any healer or squishy in PVP.

 

Try being a squishy healer or Damage and spend most of the game in the respawn room.

[Metalmac]

This is a great summation of the healer's perspective.

 

I do think that DPS output needs to come down just a bit, but at the same time I recognize that healers can still be premiere classes in the right situation. When I run with my guild's PvP group, my favorite setup is when our Sorc and I heal (Sorc+Op). We put out huge numbers and cover each other's deficiencies.

 

Just as I get frustrated when DPS tears through me, I'm sure DPS gets crazy frustrated when our Sorc and Op just spam heal our entire group to full health the entire fight.

 

My concern with all of that, though, is why does a healer require a coordinated group to be highly effective when DPS can do it solo (again, to echo Sheikshufti).

 

This is because DPS has this crazy idea that no one should be able to stop them from killing anyone on sight.

 

It is a one sided argument to talk to a DPS, they never see the healer side as they NEVER HEAL.

[hairlessOrphan]

Not a specific build. The specific entire class.

 

If you want a healer who can mitigate the only thing that I can do, then I want you to be limited to healing being the only thing that you can do. Meaning trade off your stun for a 3 second channeled stun that doesn't allow you to heal. Trade off your mez for an AoE Mez that breaks if you heal or anyone on your team heals anyone. Then get rid of your knock back and your rescue. Finally you lose the ability to do any damage what so ever, save for in one spec, and then you can only deal 2% of the target's HP in damage for 3 seconds at a time and to do this requires you to get 30 stacks of "Centering" first.

 

Then you can start effectively zeroing out my damage.

 

I wouldn't choose to play such a one-dimensional class, but if it existed, I would expect its heals to be boss. Full-heal in 3GCD kind of boss. That would be a rational balance discussion; it's breadth vs. depth.

 

(actually, i think full anything in 3GCD is bonked, but people seem to like the twitch factor)

Edited April 20, 2012 by hairlessOrphan

[Dartagon]

The main problem that I see with Marauders/Sentinel is that their burst doesn't really have a peak and then a down time. It just keeps coming and coming, and if you can manage to burst one down, they have very high survivability.

 

I think they should have to sacrifice some of the survivability for the amount of damage they can currently dish out.

 

People have already figured out that premades need to consist of warriors assassins and PTs. If you stack these, with good players, things are going to melt faster then you can hit your buttons.

 

Still, I can 1v1 bad marauders, if the marauder has any idea on how to play his class its GG for any healer.

 

When is a wz ever 1v1 though

[pathiss]

Actually, My guilds main healer is Shockica, who is a Sith sorcerer, and they do an outstanding job of it, My Guild is "Ghost" on Jung-Ma. If Shockica is healing in a warzone for us, we never loose, and very few people die.

 

Maybe you should move to my server and join the guild and have Shock teach you a thing or 2.

 

I am on your server, have been in the same warzone several times with Shockica, and each and every time healed circles around him while dying less. Not only that, I said fighting competent opponents not the random puggers you fight most of the time. Though you guys do tend to have trouble with random puggers judging from what I have seen playing against you in some matches.

 

Edfit: You want to try again before opening your mouth and putting your foot in it. I also wouldn't tell people you are in Ghost if you want any forum credibility. laugh

Edited April 20, 2012 by pathiss

[Boigle]

In a competitive PvP environment, what is the point of being a healer over a dps?

I can't think of a good reason to have a healer anymore when it takes a single DPS to completely neutralize them.

If you get focused as a healer your options are

A) Run away

What use is that? You run off and are out of the fight and the DPS can chase you and kill you or head back into the team fight which is now lopsided. 1.2 seems to have turned competitive PvP into a DPS race.

[Khoraji]

In a competitive PvP environment, what is the point of being a healer over a dps?

I can't think of a good reason to have a healer anymore when it takes a single DPS to completely neutralize them.

If you get focused as a healer your options are

A) Run away

What use is that? You run off and are out of the fight and the DPS can chase you and kill you or head back into the team fight which is now lopsided. 1.2 seems to have turned competitive PvP into a DPS race.

 

If you get focused as a healer your options are:

A) Heal yourself while using CC and LoS to interupt their attacks. You can easily heal through a single DPS. Eventually a DPS should kill the guy attacking you

B) If you are guarded (which you should be if there is a tank nearby), heal yourself and others with ease.

 

As for the reason to bring a healer... we can still out-heal 2-3 DPS for a decent amount of time as long as no one is interupting you/attacking you.

[RJChief]

When is a wz ever 1v1 though

 

I actually agree that the idea of 1v1 balance is totally bonked, and that balance discussions should always be about raid composition and opportunity costs of including Class A over Class B.

 

I don't typically pick apart 1 sentence from a post so please forgive this instance. I'm not entirely arguing here, just stating an opinion.

 

1v1s 1v2s and 2v2's actually happen quite often.... the rarest battle in any warzone is 8v8. The only warzone you will see an 8v8 when its not already gg is Huttball and even at that theres typically someone missing (going for goal, waiting for respawn, the likes) save for the very start of the game.

 

As much as I would like to say, "Yup its a team based game centered around 8v8" the fact is smaller fights in warzone happen constantly. If you have someone solo or dual guarding a node on any other warzone chances are you typically start a small fight in a manner mentioned above, therefore discussions of 1v1 1v2 2v2 are legitimate.

 

Complaining will never stop though. Thank god that gone is the argument of DoT's interrupting capping.... As much as I loved being able to solo guard a node as a Heal Spec Sage (Though I often ran a unique hybrid build of "mostly healer") I had to agree with the absurdity.

 

When 1.2 first landed I said what every other Sage Healer said "Screw it... I'm done, going DPS" but seeing the lack of healers on my server I was forced to heal. Heal or Lose was my ultimatum. I've come to terms with most of the changes and had to re-evaluate my talent trees. IF YOU ARE A SAGE HEALER AND YOU DONT HAVE AT LEAST 33 POINTS IN SEER START OVER!

 

I believe that DPS got overbalanced with massive sweeping changes pulling and pushing from every aspect already mentioned in this juggernaut of a thread, but after some serious thinking/theory crafting I must say that we are closer to a "balanced" game that pre 1.2. Don't give up hope, Healers... remember, you have a Combat Log now.

Edited April 20, 2012 by RJChief

[KiranK]

LOL for all those problems you ignore the crap load of damage you do in a very short amount of time to a squishy.

 

Those limitations are there as if not then you would be a 2 shot machine on any healer or squishy in PVP.

 

Try being a squishy healer or Damage and spend most of the game in the respawn room.

 

DPS only class puts out crapload of damage to a squishy?!! What madness is this?!!

[Boigle]

If you get focused as a healer your options are:

A) Heal yourself while using CC and LoS to interupt their attacks. You can easily heal through a single DPS. Eventually a DPS should kill the guy attacking you

B) If you are guarded (which you should be if there is a tank nearby), heal yourself and others with ease.

 

As for the reason to bring a healer... we can still out-heal 2-3 DPS for a decent amount of time as long as no one is interupting you/attacking you.

 

I said in a competitive environment, not with noobs. A good DPS can use their roots/interrupts and jumps to stay on you and with their DPS and interrupts you simply can't keep yourself alive.

If you are guarded, that means there is a tank on your team which doesn't have the DPS output as pure DPS and the pure DPS team will easily whittle through you.

 

Pre 1.2 I averaged 350k healing and 100k DPS, and if I didn't feel like doing any real DPS I'd average 500k plus healing.

Post 1.2 I've gotten well above 600k healing in a PUG game, but in the few games that had decent DPS on the opposite team I could barely break 150k healing.

The problem isn't about playing PUG games, it's about playing in an environment in which skill levels are equal.

You say "as long as no one"... if the other team is smart there is ALWAYS someone doing just that.

Edited April 20, 2012 by Boigle

[Boigle]

DPS only class puts out crapload of damage to a squishy?!! What madness is this?!!

 

That isn't the point, the point is as a squishy you suddenly aren't any use to your team.

[RJChief]

That isn't the point, the point is as a squishy you suddenly aren't any use to your team.

 

You must not fight the changes.... unless your on the Dev Team (in which case don't admit it or prepare to face a public hanging). Learn and Adapt.

 

The game has changed in 1 massive way which people know but don't want to admit. It is no longer "coordinate to kill" but its "coordinate to stay alive" By this I mean, because your squishy your team should be peeling for you. It used to be, because you put up nasty damage you should focus fire.

 

THIS IS DRASTIC, PLEASE ADAPT

[Boigle]

You must not fight the changes.... unless your on the Dev Team (in which case don't admit it or prepare to face a public hanging). Learn and Adapt.

 

The game has changed in 1 massive way which people know but don't want to admit. It is no longer "coordinate to kill" but its "coordinate to stay alive" By this I mean, because your squishy your team should be peeling for you. It used to be, because you put up nasty damage you should focus fire.

 

THIS IS DRASTIC, PLEASE ADAPT

 

If one team is working to stay alive, the other team must be working to kill and that means their team is better constructed ie: all DPS

So yes, I'll adapt by speccing to DPS.

Edited April 20, 2012 by Boigle

[RJChief]

If one team is working to stay alive, the other team must be working to kill and that means their team is better constructed ie: all DPS

 

If you run an all DPS team against my premade I will laugh. It is still only 4 man ques anyway. What you just stated was my initial thought... don't misunderstand. I know what you are trying to say. I simply now disagree with that notion and have thus far been proven right, and have beaten multiple pure DPS teams as they seem quite common.

[Khoraji]

If you run an all DPS team against my premade I will laugh. It is still only 4 man ques anyway. What you just stated was my initial thought... don't misunderstand. I know what you are trying to say. I simply now disagree with that notion and have thus far been proven right, and have beaten multiple pure DPS teams as they seem quite common.

 

This...

 

Pure DPS teams will lose. The best group is probably 2 healers, 2 tanks, and 4 DPS.

[Boigle]

If you run an all DPS team against my premade I will laugh. It is still only 4 man ques anyway. What you just stated was my initial thought... don't misunderstand. I know what you are trying to say. I simply now disagree with that notion and have thus far been proven right, and have beaten multiple pure DPS teams as they seem quite common.

 

The few times I've actually had to face a team with decent players I was completely nullified as a sage healer, and not due to lack of my own skill nor lack of skill of my team. It simply took 1 person to focus me and there was nothing I could do other than prolong my death, which was really just hindering my team. So while maybe you've had success, I have had 0 success against a good team. I feel much more useful for the team as a DPS.

 

I'd say the best team right now is a combination of hybrid tank/dps and pure dps. And keep in mind I'm saying against players of EQUAL OR BETTER skill. Playing against randoms means nothing.

Edited April 20, 2012 by Boigle

[KiranK]

That isn't the point, the point is as a squishy you suddenly aren't any use to your team.

 

No, actually it is you who are missing the point. Prior to 1.2, healers were way more independent in WZs. They could run around as they pleased while DPS were forced to focus fire on them 3 at a time just to get them down. Now DPS have much more flexibility in their roles. Sorry if you have to try harder.

[ProfessorWalsh]

I wouldn't choose to play such a one-dimensional class, but if it existed, I would expect its heals to be boss. Full-heal in 3GCD kind of boss. That would be a rational balance discussion; it's breadth vs. depth.

 

(actually, i think full anything in 3GCD is bonked, but people seem to like the twitch factor)

 

You do know I just described the Sentinel class. The class that is killing healers through their ability to heal.

 

As you just said:

"I would expect its heals to be boss."

 

And as a Sentinel, going with all of those limitations and having to do it all in melee range then I expect, as it is, for it to have boss DPS.

[RJChief]

The few times I've actually had to face a team with decent players I was completely nullified as a sage healer, and not due to lack of my own skill nor lack of skill of my team. It simply took 1 person to focus me and there was nothing I could do other than prolong my death, which was really just hindering my team. So while maybe you've had success, I have had 0 success against a good team. I feel much more useful for the team as a DPS.

 

I'd say the best team right now is a combination of hybrid tank/dps and pure dps. And keep in mind I'm saying against players of EQUAL OR BETTER skill. Playing against randoms means nothing.

 

I believe that. I never said it was easy, nor that it wasn't painful. We do die much more and thats in part because people are still playing under pre1.2 mindset of "Focus Enemy Healers". I'm not saying that you shouldn't kill healers first, but the enemy healer is a secondary issue... the focus post 1.2 SHOULD be "Protect Friendly Healers".

 

I did already say that dps was overbalanced... BW Dev Team stacked multiple effective changes that turned out to be one megamonster nerf to healers, and primarily Sage/Sorc healers. I think you are so mad that you aren't reading what I am writing and just insistent on your point that "omgimsquishy". Have anyone you play with consistently peeled dps off you; i.e. knockbacks/stuns/snares/kill??? If your getting murdered as fast as you are saying, I'm going to put $100 on no.

 

As for being of more use as dps. Perhaps you aren't a well known healer on your server. Majority of the Imps on my server recognize my name as main heals and you havn't seen squishy until you are the main target as a DPS Sage. I'm not saying this to be disrespectful but I'm trying to make a point.... squishy is squishy. Republic needs healers. Don't give up faith.

 

It will be painful until BW buffs us back but there are tactics to make you more survivable. This is almost but not quite a "L2P" issue... its more like a "Teach your Team 2 Play" Raid mark yourself at the start of every warzone and let people know that if you don't peel for you they don't get healed.

 

MAKE LIKE AN ORANGE AND PEEL!!!!

[Boigle]

I believe that. I never said it was easy, nor that it wasn't painful. We do die much more and thats in part because people are still playing under pre1.2 mindset of "Focus Enemy Healers". I'm not saying that you shouldn't kill healers first, but the enemy healer is a secondary issue... the focus post 1.2 SHOULD be "Protect Friendly Healers".

 

I did already say that dps was overbalanced... BW Dev Team stacked multiple effective changes that turned out to be one megamonster nerf to healers, and primarily Sage/Sorc healers. I think you are so mad that you aren't reading what I am writing and just insistent on your point that "omgimsquishy". Have anyone you play with consistently peeled dps off you; i.e. knockbacks/stuns/snares/kill??? If your getting murdered as fast as you are saying, I'm going to put $100 on no.

 

As for being of more use as dps. Perhaps you aren't a well known healer on your server. Majority of the Imps on my server recognize my name as main heals and you havn't seen squishy until you are the main target as a DPS Sage. I'm not saying this to be disrespectful but I'm trying to make a point.... squishy is squishy. Republic needs healers. Don't give up faith.

 

It will be painful until BW buffs us back but there are tactics to make you more survivable. This is almost but not quite a "L2P" issue... its more like a "Teach your Team 2 Play" Raid mark yourself at the start of every warzone and let people know that if you don't peel for you they don't get healed.

 

MAKE LIKE AN ORANGE AND PEEL!!!!

 

Here's my problem with that: it takes two people to take out 1 DPS. Why not just have 1 DPS vs 1 DPS? As a healer you need help, when a single DPS could be just as useful and it'd come down to skill/timing.

And I was the most prominent sage healer, first to BM, first to WH, first with a full set of gear, etc...

I'm arguing that it is more useful to have another DPS than it is to have a healer, which you disagree with, but no way of really knowing until ranked comes into play. Until then, I'm gonna stick to what I've experienced.

I never complained that we were too squishy, just that it would be more beneficial to have a DPS over a healer.

I mean, pre 1.2, a good DPS could already nuke a healer without too much recourse, and it wasn't an issue to me because that's how I think it should be, but now, my ability to heal my team is so neutralized it would be more beneficial to be a DPS.

[Boigle]

No, actually it is you who are missing the point. Prior to 1.2, healers were way more independent in WZs. They could run around as they pleased while DPS were forced to focus fire on them 3 at a time just to get them down. Now DPS have much more flexibility in their roles. Sorry if you have to try harder.

 

Pre 1.2, a good DPS could already kill a sage healer without much of a problem 1v1 so I don't know what you are talking about. It's not about having to try harder, it's about being a good class for PVP and as I see it, right now, a DPS is much more useful than a healer for a team. I'm sorry you weren't good enough to kill sages pre 1.2.

[Safgril]

Pre 1.2, a good DPS could already kill a sage healer without much of a problem 1v1 so I don't know what you are talking about. It's not about having to try harder, it's about being a good class for PVP and as I see it, right now, a DPS is much more useful than a healer for a team. I'm sorry you weren't good enough to kill sages pre 1.2.

 

this is exactly right....

 

i only got one thing to say to all the so called GREAT DPSers who thought it was hard to kill a healer pre 1.2

 

LOL

 

i had no problems taking out a healer pre 1.2.. however i had to use skill... use my tools... if i didnt kill them.. i kept them hiding or healing themselves...

 

NOW post 1.2.. its a joke.. i dont even use have my tools anymore... i dont even finish a full round rotation before they are dead... its so dumb down its sickening.

[Inemes]

this is exactly right....

 

i only got one thing to say to all the so called GREAT DPSers who thought it was hard to kill a healer pre 1.2

 

LOL

 

i had no problems taking out a healer pre 1.2.. however i had to use skill... use my tools... if i didnt kill them.. i kept them hiding or healing themselves...

 

NOW post 1.2.. its a joke.. i dont even use have my tools anymore... i dont even finish a full round rotation before they are dead... its so dumb down its sickening.

 

As a Sorc healer I thank you for the honest post. Its sad that people like you are not that much and Bioware was reading the post full of e-tears from all those lame DPSers that couldn't kill us. Same those guys are now saying that healing is fine and we're exaggerating that things post 1.2 for Sorc/Sage healers went bad