The penalties for losing are TOO severe

[Fexhie]

I just read through this entire thread and find there are two types of people posting here: one is the person who is explaining legitimate complaints (opinion) against BioWare for the way the WZ's are structured now. And the other who attack the players bringing up the issues. With exactly 1 (that I could find) exception, not one single pro-new WZ post has any supporting information. They seem to be posted by individuals that cannot articulate much beyond grade school playground jabs. Please, if you actually have data to back up your claims that this is a fair system, then post them. Otherwise you come across as someone with nothing useful to contribute to the discussion.

 

I've played 100's of hours of PvP and have ground my way to Battlemaster so please spare me your below-the-belt jabs, dust off your IQ, and post something useful to consider.

 

Hypocrite much? I did not attack anyone in this thread, I stated that I think the reward system the way it is now is great compared to how it was before. I have yet to earn less than 40 medals in a match and I die a lot. Granted the people bringing up wow and things like that are just flamers. But in no way is my opinion changed that the people who can be effective in warzones need to learn to be effective! And that is not going to happen by handing them tons of medals like they were pre patch. I am all for more rewards if you actually do something in the match, but the people here saying all they did was get rolled and they ended up with 0 medals does not make me feel bad. I get rolled all the time when I que solo and I would never get 0 medals. And btw medals are all that matter anymore! So if your complaining about valor then your argument is even more invalid in my eyes. We have enough useless warlords as it is.

[Tchotchke]

So many people seem entitled to everything they want in this country. Far as I'm concerned, unreasonable people can leave. Let them find another game that (they'll soon discover) won't pacify their every little whim. They'll just game hop month and month.

 

They are entitled to do so.

 

Heh.... all the "unreasonable" people will leave, then where will PvP be? Almost non-existent.

 

You still don't get it do ya? It's not about being reasonable, not about wanting something for nothing, not about entitlement. It's about enjoyment.

 

I'm not a terrible PvP'er, but I'm not amazing either. Before yesterday I enjoyed it. I was learning how to get better, getting some gear at a fair rate, and having lots of fun. It was a great way to spend the little free time I have, and from 34-50 it was nearly my only source of experience and credits.

 

Last night, I did 6 warzones on my server over the course of 2 hours and 40 minutes. I accepted every queue pop in that time frame. My rewards (for doing everything in my power to try to help my team to win) for the 6 losses were as follows:

 

0 Credits

~800 valor points

~40 warzone commendations

 

I'm not paying $15 a month for this. It isn't fun for me. The reasoning doesn't matter. I just won't pay anymore.

[Galiewen]

I got 40 commendations in a warzone where my stats were as follows - 61 Kills, 21 Killing Blows, 3 Solo kills, 1 death, well over 10k objective points (most in the warzone). I had something like 13-14 medals, and around 500kish damage.

 

I outperformed every player in the warzone, including any individual member of the opposing team. I feel that in a RANDOM warzone I should get more than 40 commendations. I mean..really? 15 minutes of good play in a warzone and I only get 40 commendations because the other 7 people can't contribute a fraction of what I can? If these were ranked warzones - no. You shouldn't get much for losing at all really. but these are freaking randoms that we have to run to get our gear ready for rateds. kind of silly.

 

that is very discouraging. the rewards arent scaling. It's like 100 if you win, less than 50 if you don't. if I were to perform that well in a winning warzone and only got 100 commendations, I'd still be annoyed, because I had earned more. pretty simple thought, but shrug. If you lose in 5 minutes you get the same amount of comms pretty much versus 15 minutes. it's just skewed, and really discourages solo qing for warzones.

 

100% signed

 

Solo WZ's hurt much more if you lose because of ppl without equip/skill/knowledge than with 1.1.5....So what to do? Fight for 3 or 4 medals if your team can't stay against the opposite team and wait till it's over? ...

 

Nothing more to say, hopefully they'll find a better solution..

[Sevenmags]

hey, if you put in enough loses, you will eventually start winning due to a yes slower grind to that armor but i think it could be worse, you could get no points for losing...and that my friend would truly suck

[Darth-Malkaevian]

The rewards for loosing are not much less then before, I get about 5-12 medals per game even when loosing and I get about 45 - 59 Commendations a game. (Loosing).

 

Before you got around 55 -65 or 70.

 

The game is no longer rewarding individuals who do not pull their own weight, if you can not learn how to gain medals and pull your own weight in a team game then you will not get rewarded.

 

It does not base your rewards simply on medals, it keeps track of your damage, how long you stand in one spot, the time between your actions, whether you are defending or not, etc, every stat available comes into play when it decides what rewards you get. So you could get 20 medals, and if you didn't do jack or were not a team player, you going to get less then the guy who got 10 medals and was a team player.

 

The rewards system is now based on skill, and effort/Participation. If you lack the skill then practice till you get better, or if you don't want to put forth the effort to help your team out more then you are, then do not complain when your rewards are not as high as they could be.

 

See my thread The "Real Deal" for more info on exact mechanics and rewards.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=3905322&posted=1#post3905322

 

 

That thread.

Edited April 13, 2012 by Darth-Malkaevian

[Sevenmags]

Heh.... all the "unreasonable" people will leave, then where will PvP be? Almost non-existent.

 

You still don't get it do ya? It's not about being reasonable, not about wanting something for nothing, not about entitlement. It's about enjoyment.

 

I'm not a terrible PvP'er, but I'm not amazing either. Before yesterday I enjoyed it. I was learning how to get better, getting some gear at a fair rate, and having lots of fun. It was a great way to spend the little free time I have, and from 34-50 it was nearly my only source of experience and credits.

 

Last night, I did 6 warzones on my server over the course of 2 hours and 40 minutes. I accepted every queue pop in that time frame. My rewards (for doing everything in my power to try to help my team to win) for the 6 losses were as follows:

 

0 Credits

~800 valor points

~40 warzone commendations

 

I'm not paying $15 a month for this. It isn't fun for me. The reasoning doesn't matter. I just won't pay anymore.

 

yes its a slow grind but dang man thats half way to a piece of armor...put in the time it takes and you will appreciate that armor that much more!, i play part time and have zero ambition to be the best and i spend most of my pvp life hitting the rez button but hey, i got the new BM belt yesterday after countless losses and im strutting around like yeah i won this from losses so what?!

[Tchotchke]

yes its a slow grind but dang man thats half way to a piece of armor...put in the time it takes and you will appreciate that armor that much more!, i play part time and have zero ambition to be the best and i spend most of my pvp life hitting the rez button but hey, i got the new BM belt yesterday after countless losses and im strutting around like yeah i won this from losses so what?!

 

You're getting valor and commendations mixed up. 800 valor is not half a piece of armor...

 

40 commendations is about 3% of a piece of armor.

 

yeah......

[Darth-Malkaevian]

You're getting valor and commendations mixed up. 800 valor is not half a piece of armor...

 

40 commendations is about 3% of a piece of armor.

 

yeah......

 

Its an MMO, not a console game though, you all are complaining because it takes you a week to get a full armor set (give or take) in WoW you spend MONTHS just to get 1 single piece of armor (Unless your hardcore top tier pvper in which case it still takes you at least 2-3 weeks to get one).

 

Be thankful.

[HelinCarnate]

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=3563455#post3563455

 

Just gonna leave this here for ya to ponder. Quote from a thread on the test server back on 3/22/2012 with similar complaints.

 

Guys,

 

We've changed the way rewards are given in Warzones (rewards are now based on participation - if you idle, you get nothing), and this has resulted in you seeing some odd values on PTS.

 

The current credit and XP numbers you are seeing are temporary. In a future patch to PTS, you will provide the necessary data for the system to allocate proper rewards.

 

Sorry for the confusion here, but it's the nature of the test server to sometimes receive incomplete systems. If we intended the current behavior to be final, you would have seen a patch note explaining this change.

 

TL;DR: Don't worry too much. You're looking at temporary data. Credit and XP rewards for Warzones, while changed to take participation into account, are not significantly changed from the numbers you've seen before. We expect some changes (as you are more likely to lose games early in your career, so we want to compensate for that), but nothing is finalized yet.

Edited April 13, 2012 by HelinCarnate

[PullinStuff]

I got 40 commendations in a warzone where my stats were as follows - 61 Kills, 21 Killing Blows, 3 Solo kills, 1 death, well over 10k objective points (most in the warzone). I had something like 13-14 medals, and around 500kish damage.

 

I outperformed every player in the warzone, including any individual member of the opposing team. I feel that in a RANDOM warzone I should get more than 40 commendations. I mean..really? 15 minutes of good play in a warzone and I only get 40 commendations because the other 7 people can't contribute a fraction of what I can? If these were ranked warzones - no. You shouldn't get much for losing at all really. but these are freaking randoms that we have to run to get our gear ready for rateds. kind of silly.

 

that is very discouraging. the rewards arent scaling. It's like 100 if you win, less than 50 if you don't. if I were to perform that well in a winning warzone and only got 100 commendations, I'd still be annoyed, because I had earned more. pretty simple thought, but shrug. If you lose in 5 minutes you get the same amount of comms pretty much versus 15 minutes. it's just skewed, and really discourages solo qing for warzones.

 

This is the damn point...

 

The problem everyone seems to be missing is the WZ is OBJECTIVE BASED....

 

The Objective is important, not your 500K damage, your kill ratio or any of that, those are secondary and as such are treated so, you get more for your performance that the other people on your losing team. But you did not win...

 

I can TM spam (or could) my way to the top, completely avoid objectives and take away from the teams performance in order to get medals therefore comms, now I have to (not that I was not before) work with my team to win the WZ.

 

The point is to discourage to one man damage roll mentality, the point of an objective based war zone is the damned objective.

[OrtizOwnsYanks]

I think a simple fix would make everybody's day better...just make the WZ comms back to the way they were before, BUT the winning team could get a bonus 10 comms so they feel rewarded. I would be happy with this. Who's with me?

[BigRedJedi]

The new WZ rewards seem to be getting at the right idea (rewarding victory more than defeat), but seem to be approaching that idea without some key components.

 

First, most in this thread would seem to agree that there needs to be an incentive for participation in PvP, particularly in the 'losing effort' scenarios (especially in cases of 'late join-ins'), thus, there needs to be a floor for participation-based rewards; the 4 medal count seems to be a generally-acceptable benchmark.

 

Proposal: Set the reward for 4 Medals (winning or losing team) to 20 Comms (5/Comm). Thus, a player who only gets 4 Medals in a losing effort ends up with a base reward of 20 Comms.

 

Second, reward for additional contributions to the WZ should be taken into consideration, whether the team wins or loses. Even in the most severe beatdowns that have been levied against teams on my server (and, due to a significant population imbalance, this occurs with regularity), some of the most satisfying experiences are the matches where our team gives it their all, even when defeated, we can hold our heads high and know that we made our opponents earn their victory.

 

Proposal: For the winning team, Medals 5-8 would reward 15 Comms each, while, for the losing team, Medals 5-8 would reward 10 Comms each. At this point, a winning player with 8 Medals would end up with 80 Comms, while the losing player would end up with 60 Comms (thus, two players of roughly equal contribution to a match would end up with 60/80 Comms, with the winner having a 33% greater take than the loser, and winning a match takes on value). Finally, Medals above that 8 Medal threshold should offer some benefit, even if it is simply a massive amount of extra Valor; this would allow those that consistently achieve at the highest level to attain those upper Valor ranks more quickly, and display the titles that let them know they (usually) are among the PvP elite of their server.

 

Alternative Proposal: Keep the 'normal' Medal rewards as they are now (rewarded for up to 8, at 5 Comms per Medal), and make the Objective-based Medals reward their Comms separately, either at the 5/Medal rate or even increasing the rate to 10/Medal (thereby awarding an even greater incentive to give 100% effort, even in a 'losing scenario'). Even if I only get one or two Objective medals in a steamroll, if, combined with the 4+ normal Medals, and end up with ~50 Comms, it has been a successful match (from a strictly reward-oriented viewpoint, I much prefer to play to win, but giving maximum effort in a defeat can be nearly as satisfying, if I can see that the effort I exerted was suitably rewarded).

 

Finally, there MUST be a 'quitter' penalty instituted, or, even with the extra incentive of objective-based rewards, there will remain those players that choose to handicap their teammates by leaving a match (either at the start, especially in Huttball, or mid-match). Do I like to PuG and get my teeth kicked in by a pre-made for 10 matches in a row (usually early morning, when my own team is off-line)? No, and all but the most masochistic amongst us would likely agree; however, even in PuGs, I will give 100% effort, no matter how badly we are getting trounced, because I play for the fun... Reasonable rewards go hand-in-hand with that 'fun factor', however, as all the effort in the world is essentially meaningless when you have nothing to show for it.

 

(Note: As far as credits or XP go, I really don't keep track of those rewards, for winning or losing, even on my lowbies, but if it's true that a loss rewards little or none of either of those, that really should be addressed in a more balanced way, as the time investment in finishing a game is what really matters from a credit or XP standpoint, and winning might offer slightly higher rewards, but losing should not punish these two components.)

 

Just my 2 EC,

-BRJ

Edited April 13, 2012 by BigRedJedi

[Naserick]

>,,> whats up with the thinly disguised political overtones here.

 

People don't want something for nothing. People want their personal actions to have more weight in random warzones that their team loses for them. Plus we pay $15 for a reason and thats to have access to a reasonably fun game. Take that away and we will leave. it isn't like real life where we just have to shut up and deal with it after all.

Edited April 13, 2012 by Naserick

[Fexhie]

yes its a slow grind but dang man thats half way to a piece of armor...put in the time it takes and you will appreciate that armor that much more!, i play part time and have zero ambition to be the best and i spend most of my pvp life hitting the rez button but hey, i got the new BM belt yesterday after countless losses and im strutting around like yeah i won this from losses so what?!

 

I endorse this guy.

[Sir-Coffee]

How is it a waste of time? You get more commedations than you would by quitting.

 

Are you saying that credits are why you PvP? If not, then I'm confused why you PvP. Is it to grind commedations, credits, or what?

 

LOL. I really do feel bad for you.

[Tchotchke]

Its an MMO, not a console game though, you all are complaining because it takes you a week to get a full armor set (give or take) in WoW you spend MONTHS just to get 1 single piece of armor (Unless your hardcore top tier pvper in which case it still takes you at least 2-3 weeks to get one).

 

Be thankful.

 

 

You know.... I might continue to subscribe just for the sheer entertainment provided by reading the forums. The cluelessness is astounding. What on earth does anything have to do with console games? The last console I owned was a Super Nintendo, which I got for my 16th Birthday. No joke.

[Draequin]

I found it very dis-heartening to pvp last night with 1.2 for many of the same reasons listed in this thread. Even had one match where there was zero reward in comms, valor, xp, & credits because we got steam rolled so badly. Main reason we got steam rolled: once people saw a difficult oponent they simply dropped. Had 5 drops that match. For those of us that stayed we got crapped on by BW & their 1.2 changes.

 

I solo pvp and rely on the other pugs to progress in armor & skill to further the chance of a win which on my particular server are far and few between. With these changes all I see is an already wide gap widening even further. One person asked the question 'how long do you think people will continue to get beat up for no reward?' I can answer that-they friggin wont. Thanks for crapping on pvp bioware...

[TalimNiil]

I'm glad that I'm not the only one who feels this way.

 

I definitely don't want to be generously rewarded for losing a match. And I don't want to get War Hero equipment for free. But ending up with 30 to 40 commendations after playing for 15 minutes and not doing that bad is very frustrating.

 

I always liked PvP on SWTOR and it is the main reason I'm still playing it. Therefore I utterly hope BioWare will rework this.

[Vagrantt]

I wouldn'y say that the current system is "broken", rather that it is very flawed.

 

If BW is going to have a medals system in PVP, then rewards should be based on the number of medasl earned during a given match and less on a win/lose.

 

as it is now- for example- if I have 2 lvl 50 toons on opposing factions, the one on the dominate pvp faction can earn commendations and gear faster and would hardly need to participate in a match- say earning 1 or 2 medals.

 

while the otehr toon- on the less dominate faction- maybe be earning 10+ medals a match- but is getting half the rewards. and by default- taking longer to get "geared".

 

this situation has nothing to do with the "skill" of a player. dominate pvp factions tend to have 1 or 2 guilds doing the majority of pvp- so my one toon is being rewarded for just being on the "right" faction.

 

now, i am fully aware that pvp dominace often changes factions- so it is only a matter of time before that scenario changes- which is why commendation rewards should be based off of the medals earned through particpation. while giving a bonus reward for winning or losing.

 

Foust, beregen colony

[Scinald]

The rewards for loosing are not much less then before, I get about 5-12 medals per game even when loosing and I get about 45 - 59 Commendations a game. (Loosing).

 

Before you got around 55 -65 or 70.

 

The game is no longer rewarding individuals who do not pull their own weight, if you can not learn how to gain medals and pull your own weight in a team game then you will not get rewarded.

 

It does not base your rewards simply on medals, it keeps track of your damage, how long you stand in one spot, the time between your actions, whether you are defending or not, etc, every stat available comes into play when it decides what rewards you get. So you could get 20 medals, and if you didn't do jack or were not a team player, you going to get less then the guy who got 10 medals and was a team player.

 

The rewards system is now based on skill, and effort/Participation. If you lack the skill then practice till you get better, or if you don't want to put forth the effort to help your team out more then you are, then do not complain when your rewards are not as high as they could be.

 

See my thread The "Real Deal" for more info on exact mechanics and rewards.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=3905322&posted=1#post3905322

 

 

That thread.

 

 

The rewards system is not based off of skill. It is based off of an arbitrarily decided set of metrics that the Devs hope actually encourage objective based game play. In some cases it will. In some cases it won't. And the system is fairly opaque and not particularly well explained by the company that produced it.

 

Also, I do not understand this attitude that somehow giving people rewards for participating in PvP (even if they "loose" to quote you) cheapens your victory. You still won. They still lost. You will still get more rewards faster than them and you will always be better than them. The difference is encouraging people to play instead of punishing them for it (in game terms) will allow you to have PvP experiences in this game.

 

If professional sports league were run the way many people in this thread suggest, they would completely collapse. Do pro sports teams practice to get better? Yes they do. But if your team has a bad season, it actually gets better compensation in the form of high draft picks to make up for it b/c they want to encourage parity and competition.

 

Just imagine what would happen if the NFL started a new policy giving the Super Bowl winners the first pick in the draft. They would have access to top talent every year and would, on average, perform far better than most the other teams because of it. And the other teams would have little chance to catch up b/c they could only ever access inferior talent in the draft or pricey free agents. Eventually the "have nots" would lose fan support due to mounting loses on the field and be forced into financial insolvency. It would be a horrible business model. And so is what they are doing with PvP right now.

[Varicite]

Agreed, that guy had the dumbest post ever. I think some people just like to disagree for the sake of disagreeing. He's just an ignorant troll. Everyone knows the comms and credit rewards for losing are WAY too little. The only people who don't want it fixed are the people on the zerg faction (mostly empire) who NEED there to be a gear disparity to compete. The good players on the zerg faction were happy in 1.1.5 and enjoyed the competitive games that occurred with equally geared/skilled players.

 

My server is balanced, and my side usually loses (Empire). The Republic is simply better organized than we are, usually.

 

I don't think the change is that bad at all. People should play to win. Now if they'd only do something about games starting unevenly, and I think it would be fine.

 

No, I don't think getting steamrolled by a premade is a valid complaint; this will happen in any game w/ PvP, no matter where you go. You can always counter it by forming a premade of your own.

 

Just because you feel the need to be rewarded JUST AS MUCH AS THE WINNERS for being on the losing team doesn't mean that we all feel that way.

 

I mean, the OP played a game and lost, and got half the rewards he would have gotten if he had won. That seems fair enough to me.

Edited April 13, 2012 by Varicite

[krossfade]

i was in a wz were i was top damage top protection and most kills, i got 15 medals, i got 42 coms, so ya i put a lotta effort in that wz we lost, but i personally did good, if i sat around and did jack i could see the 42 coms, this system is beyond stupid now.

[Fexhie]

I'm glad that I'm not the only one who feels this way.

 

I definitely don't want to be generously rewarded for losing a match. And I don't want to get War Hero equipment for free. But ending up with 30 to 40 commendations after playing for 15 minutes and not doing that bad is very frustrating.

 

I always liked PvP on SWTOR and it is the main reason I'm still playing it. Therefore I utterly hope BioWare will rework this.

 

I agree with you man. If you do well you should get rewarded. But to me, at this point! I think it is more important to not reward all the people who have been leeching their eyes out and take it from there. We need for people to learn how to play not just come in get rewards and leave. There needs to be a reason to win, and half the people on my server did not care if they won or lost, since they got the sameish rewards anyway. Half the time even good players would just afk after getting 4 medals b/c they knew it would be a lose. Got to love stealth in warzones!

[malkeeor]

The new PVP Medals system is completely broken.

 

I had 9 medals last match, and we lost, so i got 40 commendations...

 

If we had won, that would have been 100..

 

They punish the losing team too much, to an extent that there is NO point in hanging around if you know you're not going to win...

 

The winners get to gear up, leaving the losers behind, rinse, repeat.. Soon on ever server you're going to get one faction completely dominant in terms of gear..

 

The system is entirely broken.

 

 

You think it was bad with people leaving OPS < 1.2. It's going to be a lot worse now.

 

CORRECT THIS IMMEDIATELY, BIOWARE.

 

I don't understand why players think they should be rewarded for losing something....This isn' t the real world (how sad it has gotten) where everything is handed to people...Work for it Like you should!

[PullinStuff]

>,,> whats up with the thinly disguised political overtones here.

 

People don't want something for nothing. People want their personal actions to have more weight in random warzones that their team loses for them. Plus we pay $15 for a reason and thats to have access to a reasonably fun game. Take that away and we will leave. it isn't like real life where we just have to shut up and deal with it after all.

 

Funny thing is, it is mostly the "I did 500k damage" crowd who loses the wz....

 

For the most part, they are killing people in mid arena in HB when there is a carrier who needs support near the endzone, they are killing people between turrets instead of defending or capping them, they are not disarming/planting or even backing up those who are, they are NOT winning the warzone, they would be happier in an open pvp area...

 

I was on a team which OBSCENELY won ACW pre patch, I have no idea what the 300k damage guy did for his three MVP votes, I know a healer and I defended center turret, I capped a side turret and the third turret was back and forth. Maybe that 300k damage guy will be more active in winning now that winning grants the reward rather than look at my damage!!!!