Annihilation builds for 1.2

[Quantemoq]

http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/skills/marauder#9f18e8elc-22i-2

 

Oh, and putting points in Malice is a complete waste of points as an anni marauder. Anni bleeds aren't considered a force ability.

 

well what kind of attack 'type' is it then , given that a marauder has only two types of attack types , melee and force?

 

bleeds are a 'special version' of force attacks just like 'rockets' of mandalorion warheads are a special version of tech damage for the merc.

so bleed bonuses (like hemorrage)won't effect general force attacks , but general force buffs 'like malice' will effect bleeds

 

pretty easy to test it is to stack up your willpower (which 'only' effects force attacks and not melee) an look whether the dot of ruptue increases or not.

you will see that it does wihle the weapon damage stais the same.

 

i think lot of people get confused with damage types and attack types these days.

[Giladd]

Sorry for the late replies, I've been busy this weekend. Anyways:

 

@Smear:

I know I discussed briefly about your questions with you ingame the other day, however here is a more descriptive answer:

From my personal experience, which could be wrong and I probably shouldn't have said that it was completely worthless in case I was, I never noticed bleed crits increasing with Malice and after testing on a parser, they're considered physical damage dealer. Based off of that information, I would have to say that they are not considered force damage, but not considered weapon damage entirely. I think they're just considered weapon damage that ignores armor, which would be internal damage.

 

I've been rolling Carnage for the most part since 1.2 and am absolutely loving it. From a PvE perspective, I have not tested Anni in 1.2 although I probably will this upcoming week. Carnage performs at a very nice level now and at least imo based off of boss encounters, it quite possibly will outperform anni since the two are fairly close on a training dummy, but I want to say depending on the fight, carnage will be better due to the burst on demand aspect compared to annihilation.

 

My current spec for carnage is:

http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/skills/marauder#3c-1kdee88e8j-2

 

But that is incorporating both PvP and PvE into one spec since I do PvP a decent amount.

 

For PvE alone, it would look something like this:

http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/skills/marauder#3c-1kdce882ki-28

 

The 3 points between malice and decimate you can really put anywhere you'd like, I just didn't really know what to take there with those points since there really wasn't much to grab that would help me out in PvE. The sole reason I even have points in Unbound is so that I can get the top tier carnage talent.

 

I would move 2 points from your spec into the disruption talent, probably take it away from seeping wounds because that talent is simply amazing. However, if you could find a way to get defensive roll, you would be golden since that ability is amazing for both PvE and PvP.

 

@Quantemoq - I believe I answered your question in my first paragraph responding to Smear.

[ApotheosisLanyx]

Seriously. Lol@people still getting dual wield mastery over cloak of carnage. got a lot of great players here

[Quantemoq]

@Smear:

I know I discussed briefly about your questions with you ingame the other day, however here is a more descriptive answer:

From my personal experience, which could be wrong and I probably shouldn't have said that it was completely worthless in case I was, I never noticed bleed crits increasing with Malice and after testing on a parser

 

 

well the issue is that you have to make an awefull lot of testing to actually quantify the difference between say 40% crit and 34%.

So just 'feeling' can be misleading especially if you put the 3 points from malice in something like 'ravager' the overall dps might not even change

 

they're considered physical damage dealer. Based off of that information, I would have to say that they are not considered force damage, but not considered weapon damage entirI think they're just considered weapon damage that ignores armor, which would be internal damage.ely.

 

 

bleeding dots deal 'internal damage'

but that only says that the damage will not be mitiated by armor, nothing else.

 

damage type is fairly unimportant for anything but mitiation.

 

just a few examples:

force lightnig = energy damage -> force attack/yellow damage

http://www.torhead.com/ability/a0biEva/force-lightning

 

unload = weapon damage, here energy damage ->ranged attack/white damage

http://www.torhead.com/item/b3wGAFd/battlemaster-eliminators-blaster (weapon damage for blasters is energy)

 

ravage = weapon damage, here energy damage ->melee attack/white damage

http://www.torhead.com/item/dONUUBf/battlemaster-vindicators-lightsaber(weapon (weapon damage for lightsabers is energy)

 

you use the terms 'force damage' and 'physical damage 'that do not exists in that way.

there is only internal, elemental, kinetic and weapon/energy damage.

 

 

 

'force attacks' are a special type of attacks used by inquisitors and warriors while bhs and imperial agents use 'tech attacks' in the same way

 

each attack has an 'attack type' (like force/tech-> yellow damage/ or ranged/melee ->white damage) and a damage type ( internal, kinetic etc)

 

the 'attack type' determins what attribute will effect the damage of the skill, what kind of skill might be able to 'cleanse it' (tech dots can be cleansed by cure for exapmle)

and what kind of accuracy/deflection system is applied (force and tech attacks cannot be deflected while melee and ranged mostly can)

 

also skills that buff an attackgroup, never apply for the damage type but for the 'attack type'.

There is no skill in any tree of any class that increases all internal or kinetic damage.

it always sais tech, force, ranged melee

 

I think they're just considered weapon damage that ignores armor, which would be internal damage.

 

no internal damage is used for all classes, even sorcs have abilities like affliction that deal internal damage that has nothing to do with neither weapondamage nor melee

 

http://www.torhead.com/ability/fEovguu/affliction

 

 

one could make the point that bleeds have its own attack type, but then the warrior would require an additional bracket in the character sheet beside:

 

melee

defense

force

pvp (only expertise)

 

 

so basically they 'can' only use either force or melee statistics. and one can easly test that dots cannot be 'melee' since their damage is increased through willpower and melee damge is not

Edited April 16, 2012 by Quantemoq

[Malanoth]

The idea that Ravage is one of our best damage dealing ability is simply incorrect. We'll be able to accurately back this statement with facts now that we have access to a combat log but for an ability that is reliant on a channeled, 3-second cast to deal out all of its damage, it's situational at best.

 

Ravage is great against the morons who just sit there while you're wailing on them. With the changes to healing and expertise, this isn't going to be that prevalent anymore. Anybody with a modicum of PvP experience simply runs away at the sight of any Marauders/Sentinels casting a channeled ability that isn't choking you mid-air.

Telling people to put points into Ravager as an Anni build is like telling healers they should invest 2 points in an ability that purely increases their DPS: it's useless.

 

Only Ravage is really useful now in PvP, even for Anni builds because they changed the range of it too. If you start Ravage while you are on top of your enemy player and that player has a slow you can get the whole Ravage off with ease as it continues to hit further away now as the player moves, as long as your on top of them at the start you'll get the whole attack off if your not stunned or knocked back (which can happen for every melee skill anyway).

 

A shorter cooldown, 8% increased damage from Ravager, (plus patch 1.2 buff) for 2 points is worth it imo if thats were you want your points. Its not useless at all. Not taking it is personal choice. Some will like using it others won't, but its a sheet ton of damage when you have your dots ticking, the player is slowed and other things are on cooldown.

[Giladd]

Seriously. Lol@people still getting dual wield mastery over cloak of carnage. got a lot of great players here

 

...

You do realize that dual wield mastery is a pretty significant increase to our damage, right?

 

@Quante

The thing that makes me skeptical is that according to the parser, this is how bleeds are listed:

Bleeding(Physical)

 

So that makes me believe that they are considered an armor pen physical damage dealer rather than force.

 

And I do realize that normally yellow damage = force/tech damage and white damage = weapon damage as well as just getting a feel for how it affects damage is a bad idea. However the feel was pre-1.2 so there was no parser and post 1.2 I haven't played anni enough to test it out. The only new info I have on anni since 1.2 in regards to bleeds is that according to the parser they're listed as a source of physical damage rather than force.

Edited April 16, 2012 by Giladd

[Omophorus]

Reformatting this multi-edited beast just because.

 

Firstly, let me just state that the following is largely an exercise in anal-retentiveness, should anyone decide to test it, for one very simple reason.

 

Force Shroud only blocks Force and Tech attacks. Force Shroud negates a Marauder's bleed damage while it is active. Ergo, since Marauders have no Tech attacks, the bleeds are Force, and thus Malice impacts them.

 

Anyway, should anyone find this reasoning insufficient, testing Malice is actually feasible, if time consuming, now.

 

The simplest way would be to take several trials against a dummy and use Excel to isolate bleed damage and crit rate. A few trials with and without Malice, provided each trial is long enough (~10 minutes per "fight") should start to make it very clear if there is a noticeable difference. Berserk should not be used as it will compress the results and make any differences harder to spot. Each "fight" will provide 500-600 bleed procs, for a total data set large enough for a meaningful conclusion to be drawn.

 

All said and done, 5 trials of 10 minute length with and without Malice would take right around 2 hours of whacking on a dummy, and parsing out the results with Excel should take 5 minutes or less.

 

As I'm going to be traveling for work the next few days, I nominate someone else with more free time than myself to try it out!

Edited April 16, 2012 by Omophorus

[CrazyAl]

...

You do realize that dual wield mastery is a pretty significant increase to our damage, right?

 

@Quante

The thing that makes me skeptical is that according to the parser, this is how bleeds are listed:

Bleeding(Physical)

 

So that makes me believe that they are considered an armor pen physical damage dealer rather than force.

 

And I do realize that normally yellow damage = force/tech damage and white damage = weapon damage as well as just getting a feel for how it affects damage is a bad idea. However the feel was pre-1.2 so there was no parser and post 1.2 I haven't played anni enough to test it out. The only new info I have on anni since 1.2 in regards to bleeds is that according to the parser they're listed as a source of physical damage rather than force.

 

force/tech and melee/ranged are attack types, not damage types

 

and they directly correlate to the color of the damage numbers

 

yellow damage is a force/tech attack

 

marauder bleeds are force attacks

 

 

also, there is no "physical" damage type

 

damage types are weapon, internal, kinetic, and i forgot the last (elemental?), but its not physical

 

most attacks that seem like they should deal physical damage are either weapon or kinetic damage

 

i think, in the case of marauder bleeds, the damage type is internal, but i cant log in right now to check, so someone else can confirm

 

and internal damage is not mitigated by armor

 

so there ya have it

[Giladd]

Bleeding(physical) is what the bleed damage comes up as in the parsers which are directly reading the combat logs that bioware implemented in the game. Feel free to explain that how you will.

 

Like I said, I could very well be wrong about malice and yes, I am very well aware of how bleeds show up, what mitigates them, etc...

 

I am aware that by most indicators, they are indeed a force attack. However, the reason why I'm doubting that they are effected my malice is the wording used in talents for bleeds as well as how they appear damage wise on parsers.

Edited April 16, 2012 by Giladd

[Omophorus]

Bleeding(physical) is what the bleed damage comes up as in the parsers which are directly reading the combat logs that bioware implemented in the game. Feel free to explain that how you will.

 

Like I said, I could very well be wrong about malice and yes, I am very well aware of how bleeds show up, what mitigates them, etc...

 

I am aware that by most indicators, they are indeed a force attack. However, the reason why I'm doubting that they are effected my malice is the wording used in talents for bleeds as well as how they appear damage wise on parsers.

 

And Force Shroud is the 1-shot counter to your argument, regardless of wording in the parser.

 

They are not Tech attacks, as Marauder has no Tech attacks.

 

They are not Ranged attacks, as Marauder has no Ranged attacks.

 

They are not Weapon attacks, as Force Shroud would not negate them.

 

That leaves only 1 option... they are Force attacks, dealing internal damage, which means Malice will increase their crit rate.

 

None of our talents indicate the attack type of bleeds, and the tooltips for Deadly Sabers and Rupture only specify that the damage type (not attack type!) is internal.

[kaspertg]

Curious to what kind of dps numbers people are able to pull with carnage. With annihilation i can almost break 1500 with subpar rank 22 enhancements on the dummy and mid-low 1400 on hardmode bosses.

 

http://www.fryingtime.com/?filename=combat_2012-04-18_02_59_50_327410.txt#04_33_33_861000

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#100bIbRrRbfsZhMZRM.1 for the first fight

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#100bIbRrRMfsZhRZMM.1 for the last fight

[Bloodymoon]

Carnage can get the same numbers, both specs are relly close. Which is why you should spec Anni - same dps + heals... :/

[Sneakybootz]

I have try'd out both specs since 1.2. Not sure if its just me not being use to carnage or me just sucking at it but running 31/8/2 i pull anywhere from 1400-1650 DPS on bosses in EC normal. Where i only do 1200-maybr 1350ish in carnage on the OP dummy Thats in 100% Rakata.

[Jaidn]

Curious to what kind of dps numbers people are able to pull with carnage. With annihilation i can almost break 1500 with subpar rank 22 enhancements on the dummy and mid-low 1400 on hardmode bosses.

 

http://www.fryingtime.com/?filename=combat_2012-04-18_02_59_50_327410.txt#04_33_33_861000

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#100bIbRrRbfsZhMZRM.1 for the first fight

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#100bIbRrRMfsZhRZMM.1 for the last fight

 

If you don't mind telling me, what is your gear like and what parser you run? I'm mostly rakata with the exceptionof chest and mainhand. I can really only muster about 1350-1420 on the operation dummy and use the mox parser. I'm going to try again after work, but I tried to test it this morning. Just tried to go about The same time you did to see how much total damage I did, since it could be a different parser. I got about 10k more damage in 15 more seconds than you went for. Numbers where 1410 dps and 230 hps.