Getting Frustrated with Pyro...

[Zombifikation]

Long, Venting Rant INC! (TL;DR Warning)

 

So, Pyro has always been my spec, except for a stint as BG the first month or so I was a 50, but other than that I've been a pyro.

 

First, a note on 1.2 and Mercs as a whole. BG is getting nerfed to hell, arsenal is somehow getting a buff, though is still insanely boring to play and Pyro is getting an indirect nerf because our powertech cousins were a bit too strong. Great, so now we're left with a turret tree.

 

As for Pyro itself....I feel like we are down there with snipers in terms of overall usefulness in pvp. We bring little utility, and though we do decent damage, it's nothing to write home about compared to snipers, marauders, rage juggs, operatives, and PT pyros. Yet, we're getting nerfed for some odd reason...not that the nerfs are game breaking, but Merc Pyro didn't need any changes...a buff if anything.

 

I realize that this isn't a 1v1 game, but it gets frustrating when going to illum, or being stuck away from your team in pvp (knocked in the pit, respawing, etc), and not being able to kill anything solo. Ok, I'm exagerating, we can kill sorcs, snipers, arsenal mercs, and dps 'sins without so much as a second thought providing we have some cover to LoS behind. However, I feel like I just can't stand up to anything else solo. I'm not new to MMO's or ranged classes, I've played GW, EVE, WH and WoW for several years as a hunter, I know how to kite.

 

Yet, kiting seems impossible in this game given the amounts of stuns, slows, gap closers and defensive CD's available to other classes.

 

So, what do mercs have? We have one crappy bubble, which is really only useful for BG, the rest of the time it just ends up delaying the inevitable, as high dg classes can still take out 20% or more of my hp with their big attacks with bubble up. We have a knockback, which isn't all that great unless you are arsenal or on a bridge. The standard 4 second stun, and an 8 second Mezz that, well, really is only good if you are interrupting with it.

 

Ok, cool, but there are more counters available to other classes. Let me break down a couple fights for you.

 

Marauder- They usually run into combat and start swinging. I'll electro dart and start running, setting up with IM, TD, RS and my relic. Usually they will be out of ED by then, and leap to interrupt the Unload I'm about to cast, though I'll usually proc a free rail, and then Punch, followed by a knockback. By this time I'd have done about 50% of their hp, while they have done about the same to me, despite only having been in combat for a couple of seconds and me having 687 expertice. Once knocked back they will usually saber throw slow and or force choke (which I usually Escape from) me waiting for leap to come off cd, or simply slow me so I can't get any range. I'll spam some auto attacks but it's likely not going to matter if I am also slowed. I'll pop my defensive, but he's still on my hitting like a truck. Well, now he's below 40%, so I insta FM him and refresh IM to keep my dot dg up. Well, then they pop their defensives, which turn my dg to 0, and finish killing me before electro dart or my knockback is off cd. Every time I see a Merc Pyro vid, I just stake my head and say, wow...that marauder is really bad, they didn't do x y or z that would have happened in one of my fights.

 

Operative

He opens, I eat the first knockdown, and Escape the Debilitate, knock back, do my standard rotation. Now....somehow, though I'm kiting, I still get about 35% of my hp taken down by explosive probe/charged shot....how the hell is a melee class doing that much ranged dg, through heavy armor and my expertice?...absolutely baffling. Anehoo. Electro dart, unload/powershot. They usually pop the ED, and blind grenade me to interrupt, then vanish...popping back out with another acid blade and killing me even with my bubble up (because I had to burn Escape to prevent myself from getting 100-0'd in the first opener). Yeah...and I will get 100-0'd if Escape is on cd from the beginning.

 

Just a couple of examples...frustrating the hell out of me bc I don't know what else I should be doing...I'm in 9/14 pieces of BM with 687 expertice and I still go down like a wet rag to 70% of the classes. Before anyone brings the whole "Hurr Durr LoS" argument to the table, any good marauder / op / melee whatever shouldn't be engaging you if you're near some good cover...maybe my server just has some damn good people on it.

 

TL;DR Merc Pyro's are feeling sub par, and the AC as a whole is going to be pretty sad after 1.2. I'm not one to give up, but I don't have time to reroll, and I feel pretty helpless in most competitive / 1v1 scenarios.

[Diddley]

Playing a merc is hard in pvp, yes. The buff/nerf pendulum is always swinging though, and I am lucky enough to love the play style so will continue to play pyro in PvP (PPA is not a big part of my style as it happens). However, some classes simply do not match well with others in duels and it has to be lived with.

 

I sympathise a lot with mara and operative fights to be honest. Both of them are very very hard unless you are playing bads. The saving grace of being a pyro merc is that ops and maras often jump on you when they have half health and everything on cooldown thinking you are an easy kill or a tracer spammer, and you can literally wipe the floor with them whatever skill level.

 

If there are a lot of hard players around, hang with team mates and don't go looking for trouble on your own. If you can carry on uninterrupted contributing dps in a pack you are a great asset.

 

As for spec/rotation stuff, you need to get your dots up first and attack first (if they get the jump on you first use an electro dart to buy yourself a few seconds.). Never put your burst up front on a mara as this will make their alarm bells ring so they put on their defensive cooldowns. You need to burst through that last 50% not burst them down to 50% - I think all pyros make this mistake. Try this rotation:

 

- TD first (sooner its on cd the better)

- IM

- Power surge+TSO+Fusion

- A couple of rapid shots (to proc cbc and manage heat, TD will also arrive)

- Railshot

- Unload to proc another railshot

- TD will now be just about ready to use again

 

This way you get all three dots up before the burst starts happening and stacked together it melts them. If you crit with that rotation the mara has no hope of surviving and will panic. Use rocket punch, rapid shots and power shots to finish depending on your heat.

 

If they use undying rage just kite them with rapid shots or stun them, this will lower your heat and get you ready to start the rotation all over again.

 

Also if things go bad I cannot recommend Energy Rebounder and Degauss enough. You at least have a hope of getting away then. You will also need medpacks!

 

As for operatives, I honestly cannot stand their ability to cc and tear you to pieces. Hopefully you have determination ready and can get an electro dart in there to break their rotation or knock them off a ledge. Medpacks and defensive cooldowns (energy rebounder and automated defenses) are key to my survival in these situations.

Edited April 12, 2012 by Diddley

[Afraid]

The most annoying thing as pyro mercenary is that when ur equivalent pt pyro has the talent of the 100% proc for cgc with flame burst, u get an alacrity (lololol) talent.What represents that in theory?Simple.The powertech version with the instant-no cd flameburst CAN reapply the much needed dot to keep ur target ablaze(increasing the dmg of ur skills and making him vunerable to railshot)much more effectively than a mercenary pyro does.And some will say "but man you have incendiary missile,u can apply dot easily too why u whine about it?....".Well i was taught as a dps tpo always focus a freaking healer down till he ragequits and either he dies by me,or he breaks his keyboard in pieces.Now keep in mind as a pyro spec(be it merc or pt) when ur target is ablaze,everything synergizes like pieces of a puzzle.HOWEVER,healers have an ability called cure(which cleanses ur dot and has 4 something sec cd).As a mercenary pyro u have 2 options to dot ur target:

1)Fusion Missile(33 heat usable efficiently only with TSO,prefferably power surge to make instant)

2)CGC dot

3)Incendiary missile

 

The 1) scenario is situational with huge cd and not heat efficient and gone with one cleanse.The CGC dot is 16%(remember my sentences about pt and their flame burst talent?here i explain it).So 16% dot chance on rapid shots while our brothers pt have it instant and CERTAIN(no RGN or anything).Why the fuzz?Because even if a healer cleanses ur first dot,one flame burst and procceed to destroy while as merc pyro you totally rely on incendiary missile,a 25 heat ability that has travel time delay if ur shooting from a distance which u should be as ranged and a RGN combustile gas cylinder proc with rapid shots.What does this mean in theory?It means(and you will realise it in ranked wz's vs decent healers if u already havent)that a good healer will perma cleanse ur dots making u either go overheat trying to kill the healer OR delay ur burst so an opponent wipes the floor with ur @ss.And on top of all this,they nerfed power shot(which was white dmg anyway.......) and also put internal cd on ppa(toning down ur "lucky" burst by making it predictable burst,which in the end of the day with power shot spam wasnt a quick burst either).

 

 

Because i love the bounty hunter and the mercenary class specifically,im not naive to not see that yeah,bodyguard got a somewhat fair nerf(although they could toy with his 20% more healing to himself talent when in energy shield or nerf the seconds ur uninterruptable if they wanted to nerf him on the pvp area but whatever...),arsenal for me got a buff on his burst dmg and specifically vs healers and slight nerf vs tanks but really,pyro?Why touch the mercenary pyro?

 

A direct question to all the premade teams that will form for ranked matches in 1.2:

What more exactly does a mercenary pyro offer vs the arsenal mercenary team in a ranked team?Arsenal can burst a healer,can debuff any target he wants or even all the targets via tracer(which is a HUGE debuff for the team),also can EXPOSE healers into the open with 2 knockbacks and shorter cd and bigger range on the jet boost.What does pyro offer?A piss poor sweltering heat slow(unreliable with 16% proc chance for cgc) controllable and cleansable burst,and a whole load of white dmg(only td and im are kinetic).

Edited April 12, 2012 by Afraid

[Baarabas]

The most annoying thing as pyro mercenary is that when ur equivalent pt pyro has the talent of the 100% proc for cgc with flame burst, u get an alacrity (lololol) talent.What represents that in theory?Simple.The powertech version with the instant-no cd flameburst CAN reapply the much needed dot to keep ur target ablaze(increasing the dmg of ur skills and making him vunerable to railshot)much more effectively than a mercenary pyro does.And some will say "but man you have incendiary missile,u can apply dot easily too why u whine about it?....".Well i was taught as a dps tpo always focus a freaking healer down till he ragequits and either he dies by me,or he breaks his keyboard in pieces.Now keep in mind as a pyro spec(be it merc or pt) when ur target is ablaze,everything synergizes like pieces of a puzzle.HOWEVER,healers have an ability called cure(which cleanses ur dot and has 4 something sec cd).As a mercenary pyro u have 2 options to dot ur target:

1)Fusion Missile(33 heat usable efficiently only with TSO,prefferably power surge to make instant)

2)CGC dot

3)Incendiary missile

 

The 1) scenario is situational with huge cd and not heat efficient and gone with one cleanse.The CGC dot is 16%(remember my sentences about pt and their flame burst talent?here i explain it).So 16% dot chance on rapid shots while our brothers pt have it instant and CERTAIN(no RGN or anything).Why the fuzz?Because even if a healer cleanses ur first dot,one flame burst and procceed to destroy while as merc pyro you totally rely on incendiary missile,a 25 heat ability that has travel time delay if ur shooting from a distance which u should be as ranged and a RGN combustile gas cylinder proc with rapid shots.What does this mean in theory?It means(and you will realise it in ranked wz's vs decent healers if u already havent)that a good healer will perma cleanse ur dots making u either go overheat trying to kill the healer OR delay ur burst so an opponent wipes the floor with ur @ss.And on top of all this,they nerfed power shot(which was white dmg anyway.......) and also put internal cd on ppa(toning down ur "lucky" burst by making it predictable burst,which in the end of the day with power shot spam wasnt a quick burst either).

 

 

Because i love the bounty hunter and the mercenary class specifically,im not naive to not see that yeah,bodyguard got a somewhat fair nerf(although they could toy with his 20% more healing to himself talent when in energy shield or nerf the seconds ur uninterruptable if they wanted to nerf him on the pvp area but whatever...),arsenal for me got a buff on his burst dmg and specifically vs healers and slight nerf vs tanks but really,pyro?Why touch the mercenary pyro?

 

A direct question to all the premade teams that will form for ranked matches in 1.2:

What more exactly does a mercenary pyro offer vs the arsenal mercenary team in a ranked team?Arsenal can burst a healer,can debuff any target he wants or even all the targets via tracer(which is a HUGE debuff for the team),also can EXPOSE healers into the open with 2 knockbacks and shorter cd and bigger range on the jet boost.What does pyro offer?A piss poor sweltering heat slow(unreliable with 16% proc chance for cgc) controllable and cleansable burst,and a whole load of white dmg(only td and im are kinetic).

 

I have been screaming what this guy is saying since 1.2 notes. Where is the Dev response!?

 

We are collateral damage to a PT Pyro and Arsenals nerf.

 

• 
  We took a nerf to Hired Muscle for the sake of Arsenals
  We took a nerf to rail proc for the sake of PT
  We took a nerf to Power Shot for the sake of .....? (Arsenals?)
  We took a nerf to DFA for what ever the reason.
  

 

We got screwed. DFA is now going to be the weakest of its kind. The operative strike's cast time is faster now. Every other class can cast on themselves with 5m radious. BH, we cant cast on self, but we still get nerf'd down to 5 meter radious on DFA.

Edited April 12, 2012 by Baarabas

[Macroecon]

It will be very interesting to see what happens to the Merc demographics after 1.2 lands. I suspect that overall we will see a decline in the Merc population. Some BGs moving to Operative. Some Arsenal moving to Marauder or other dps.

 

But it is within the Merc demographic that particularly has me interested. I think few BGs will shift to other trees. But will some Arsenal move to Pyro? I doubt it will be a large percentage. If you look at what people are reporting for sustained dps vs. test dummies on PTS, Merc Pyro scores lower than any other BH dps class. Lower than all melee dps. And about on par with the best dps Sorcs despite having fewer escape options, weaker AoE attacks and no debuff abilities. It's not the type of landscape that will attract settlers.

 

Despite this fact, I think over time Merc Pyro will continue to get nerfed more often than it gets buffed. Why is that? The PvP Merc Pyro population is already extremely low. I can go 40 matches on my server and not see a single one other than myself. So the Merc Pyro demographics are now being very heavily weighted towards hardcore Merc Pyro fanatics that know their class' ins and outs down cold. And these people are prolific damage scorers. This is significantly raising the damage stats from BW's ingame data collection. Does this sound like a bit of an egotistical explanation? Perhaps. But it's simply a fact that on my server, my personal stats form a large % of the server's Merc Pyro stats. And BW will look at those stats and conclude, "Damn, Merc Pyro is OP!".

 

This is the problem with ingame data collection. It does not control for variance in the subclass' player skill levels. And when a particular subclass becomes extremely unpopular, the only remaining users are hard core adherents to the platform - and these tend to be more skilled players. Don't believe me? This is exactly why Concealment Operatives got nerfed again in 1.2. The demographic exodus from that subclass after the 1.15 nerf probably INCREASED the average stats for the subclass, because only very skilled players continued to play it. Correspondingly this is why Mara/Sents got buffed (yes even Anni Maras got buffed). So many wanna be players flocked to that class that their average productivity dropped.

 

The bottom line here is that BW will continue to adjust subclass (im)balance based on AVERAGE demographic performance. Thus to gauge how protected your subclass is against future nerfs, you need to know how your subclass is populated. Right now Merc Pyro and Concealment Operatives continue to look vulnerable. Healers may also be vulnerable - the healing nerfs may chase away bad healers (of which there are many), causing average productivity to rise.

Edited April 12, 2012 by Macroecon

[Diddley]

It will be very interesting to see what happens to the Merc demographics after 1.2 lands. I suspect that overall we will see a decline in the Merc population. Some BGs moving to Operative. Some Arsenal moving to Marauder or other dps.

 

But it is within the Merc demographic that particularly has me interested. I think few BGs will shift to other trees. But will some Arsenal move to Pyro? I doubt it will be a large percentage. If you look at what people are reporting for sustained dps vs. test dummies on PTS, Merc Pyro scores lower than any other BH dps class. Lower than all melee dps. And about on par with the best dps Sorcs despite having fewer escape options, weaker AoE attacks and no debuff abilities. It's not the type of landscape that will attract settlers.

 

Despite this fact, I think over time Merc Pyro will continue to get nerfed more often than it gets buffed. Why is that? The PvP Merc Pyro population is already extremely low. I can go 40 matches on my server and not see a single one other than myself. So the Merc Pyro demographics are now being very heavily weighted towards hardcore Merc Pyro fanatics that know their class' ins and outs down cold. And these people are prolific damage scorers. This is significantly raising the damage stats from BW's ingame data collection. Does this sound like a bit of an egotistical explanation? Perhaps. But it's simply a fact that on my server, my personal stats form a large % of the server's Merc Pyro stats. And BW will look at those stats and conclude, "Damn, Merc Pyro is OP!".

 

This is the problem with ingame data collection. It does not control for variance in the subclass' player skill levels. And when a particular subclass becomes extremely unpopular, the only remaining users are hard core adherents to the platform - and these tend to be more skilled players. Don't believe me? This is exactly why Concealment Operatives got nerfed again in 1.2. The demographic exodus from that subclass after the 1.15 nerf probably INCREASED the average stats for the subclass, because only very skilled players continued to play it. Correspondingly this is why Mara/Sents got buffed (yes even Anni Maras got buffed). So many wanna be players flocked to that class that their average productivity dropped.

 

The bottom line here is that BW will continue to adjust subclass (im)balance based on AVERAGE demographic performance. Thus to gauge how protected your subclass is against future nerfs, you need to know how your subclass is populated. Right now Merc Pyro and Concealment Operatives continue to look vulnerable. Healers may also be vulnerable - the healing nerfs may chase away bad healers (of which there are many), causing average productivity to rise.

 

This is a very interesting point. I do indeed see fewer operatives and when I do they are pretty unstoppable.

 

That said, there are so many newly blooded pyros on my server it's ridiculous. They've got straight fed up of having their tracer shut down by EVERY other ac (like me) or see the 1.2 patch as a nerf somehow. This is fine because I don't mind schooling them hard. I mean, most mercs on my server don't even use cleanse which is baffling.

 

As for the mara point, I believe there is actually a lack of them on my server playing PvP, which has only increased the past few weeks. Therefore we can only really speak from our own population experiences but it's just as valid to say that maras are being buffed because BW want more of them, unless someone can point me to some of the global population figures?

Edited April 12, 2012 by Diddley

[Yazule]

 

Yet, kiting seems impossible in this game given the amounts of stuns, slows, gap closers and defensive CD's available to other classes.

 

 

this is the real problem, when ranged have no kiting tools melee will dominate. Hearing a PYRO say this brings it all home for me. Someone was arguing with me that you have to kite even as an arsenal... if the "mobile dps" version of us is saying this, there is a problem.