MGriffith Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 My point is that the Jedi are hypocrites for the most part. At least the Sith are up front about it. I never went in as my Knight expecting a Sith to surrender or reason things out. The Jedi, however, aren't supposed to be that bloodthirsty. The SW and SI arcs paint Jedi in an unfavorable light for a reason. Because deep down under all their dogma, most are no better than the Sith they're "protecting the galaxy from". I think you kind of missed the point I was making (or trying to make as the case may be). In the sith stories the jedi are 'we come in peace shoot to kill' because otherwise there would not be enemies for the sith players to fight and advance their character. Just as in the jedi stories sith never make a lightside choice but always attack regardless of your attempts to reason with them. It has nothing to do with them being sith or jedi, and everything with them being opponents. In a game that focusses entirley on combat there are only 3 types of npc: enemies, allies and collateral damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain_Zone Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 I think you kind of missed the point I was making (or trying to make as the case may be). In the sith stories the jedi are 'we come in peace shoot to kill' because otherwise there would not be enemies for the sith players to fight and advance their character. Just as in the jedi stories sith never make a lightside choice but always attack regardless of your attempts to reason with them. It has nothing to do with them being sith or jedi, and everything with them being opponents. In a game that focusses entirley on combat there are only 3 types of npc: enemies, allies and collateral damage. And yet, there is one Jedi Master in the game that is so cool, he makes Lando Calrissian look like a spaz. Master Timmns on Belsavis. He's about the ONLY cool Jedi NPC in the game except for Orgus Din and Satele Shan, imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talorya Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 (edited) Sith's aren't evil by default...we're ambitious...sometimes our ambitions can lead to darker paths, but some can take the none-evil path too. If I could, I'd play my siths as manipulative as possible, defeating jedis but keep them alive, let them doubt the "evil" nature of siths as taught by their masters, and create a rift within the order while securing the trust and aid of the jedis... wait...that's not evil is it? Edited April 13, 2012 by Talorya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genuine Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 (edited) most Sith are evil because of the Sith teachings and how they use there connection to the force emotions such as rage, anger, fear to fule these connections and with out the balance of the other emotions to bring them back in balance(grey or neutral) they go to the Dark Side. The jedi do the same thing only in a opposite way. i would suggest ppl to read the dark horse comics Dawn of the Jedi as the original Jedi believed in a balance conection to the force much like Revan did in the Noval Revan and could use emoutions like rage but off set it with other emotions to balance there connections here is the original jedi code or Je'daii as they where known back then before the Force Wars and the servivers fleeing Tython to the Plant Ossus where they would later build there grate library and call them self Jedi THERE IS NO IGNORANCE; THERE IS KNOWLEDGE. THERE IS NO FEAR; THERE IS POWER I AM THE HEART OF THE FORCE I AM THE REVEALING FIRE OF LIGHT I AM THE MYSTERY OF DARKNESS IN BALANCE WITH CHAOS AND HARMONY, IMMORTAL IN THE FORCE Edited April 13, 2012 by Genuine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LemmingLeader Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 Being Jedi doesn't make one good, just as much as being Sith doesn't make on evil. What the character does determines if he/she is good or evil. How many times has the galaxy and the Jedi Order itself had to deal with a fallen Jedi, or some Jedi doing something that he wasn't supposed to do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NSStember Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 I was on the ptr and I was doing the Jedi zone and this time around I was actually paying attention to what a lot of the jedi masters tell you, there is no emotion there is only peace and so on and so forth. This is a very "idealistic" code that is next to impossible to follow "to the letter". Emotions are part of what we are. Just look at our heroes from the movies: Did Obi-Wan kill Darth Maul with no emotions? Did Luke take down dad with no emotions? Obviously not. But what the Jedi do (or try to do) is to control those emotions. They flare up, but then they can be suppressed, where as the Sith (by nature) do not feel they need to control their emotions. We can decide to play "good" Sith online, because we (as the players) are detached from the seductive alure of the dark side. We don't really feel what the power of the dark side does to someone, so it's easy for us to be "dark and good" at the same time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genuine Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 This is a very "idealistic" code that is next to impossible to follow "to the letter". Emotions are part of what we are. Just look at our heroes from the movies: Did Obi-Wan kill Darth Maul with no emotions? Did Luke take down dad with no emotions? Obviously not. But what the Jedi do (or try to do) is to control those emotions. They flare up, but then they can be suppressed, where as the Sith (by nature) do not feel they need to control their emotions. We can decide to play "good" Sith online, because we (as the players) are detached from the seductive alure of the dark side. We don't really feel what the power of the dark side does to someone, so it's easy for us to be "dark and good" at the same time. ye i agree with your post also looking at the question more do you mean the Sith Pure blood(Race) or the sith Empire or The Sith Order ? all very different is the SIth Order Evil ? i would say Yes Is the Sith Empire Evil ? i would Say Yes and No for that one its evil in the sence that it's trying to conquer and in slave other races but as you may of seen in game not all members of the imperil army are evil them self. are the Sith Pure Bloods Evil ? i would say No as just like all force users it depends on what they have done and what teachings they follow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenzali Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 (edited) A real good person would defect to republic, or at least try to do so. This statement is pretty wrong. Both organizations are equally corrupt, and you could reason that it would in fact be evil (or simply stupid) to defect to the republic if your goal was to defeat the Emperor. You'd be held back by the senate and endless laws and hearings, but by staying with the Empire you can grow more and more powerful and (hopefully) have your chance at defeating the Emperor. Edited April 13, 2012 by Jenzali Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aveon_Star Posted April 14, 2012 Share Posted April 14, 2012 Anakin - "From my point of view, the Jedi are evil!" Depends on which side you are on. Stepping out of this universe, many believe their church is of good, but look what has been done in the name of religion. People need simple, cant be going around saying the good are battling the good. the labeling of the Jedi as good is for the story so you will get emotionally involved in the struggle created. One thing I love about TOR is being Sith and choosing to be kind or good and vice versa for jedi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Smith Posted April 14, 2012 Share Posted April 14, 2012 I was on the ptr and I was doing the Jedi zone and this time around I was actually paying attention to what a lot of the jedi masters tell you, there is no emotion there is only peace and so on and so forth. I completely disagree. In fact the more I thought about it the more the sith code makes more sense, then I got to thinking does that really you'd be evil? I have a Sith Warrior with a heart of gold, and only resulted to violence when forced upon. It just got me wondering, can there really be a good sith? All I know is if this was real (I know that sounds silly) I couldn't stand being a Jedi, no emotion..sounds dull and boring, I would follow my emotions and use my rage to defeat those who would harm those I care about. What do you guys think? Well, if we go back to source (original three films) there is no mention of the Sith at all, only the Dark Side which is evil. The backstory of the Sith are not the invention of George Lucas (given that the official cannon is the films, the radio plays and TV) but the Expanded Universe, which seems to have gotten things REALLY confused! George Lucas christened Vader as a Dark Lord of the Sith probably because Sith was close to Sithis and sounded good'n'evil. Vader himself wasn't 'evil'. He was a servant of the Emperor who had no particular allegiance to the Empire, but rather to The Force. Apart from choking the odd rebel and Imperial captain here and there... He doesn't really do anything overtly 'evil'. The Emperor is pure hate and everything the Dark Side threatens, but we aren't told what he is or that he has any affiliations other than the Empire. Which leaves Vader as our only example of a Sith Lord (even though it only said so on the backing card the action figure came with!) So to answer the OP... Yes, logically a Sith can be good but we would need to know exactly what a Sith is meant to be. If it's a race of people then saying they are all evil would be an insanely ridiculous generalisation. The dire and forgettable episodes 1-3 really do demonstrate how little GL understands his own creation. We have the 'Guardians of Peace and Justice' from A New Hope suddenly proclaiming that a Lightsabre is 'their life' and being the first to draw arms. An Jedi Council getting involved in politics... Oh, don't get me started!! Rant over... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Smith Posted April 14, 2012 Share Posted April 14, 2012 Anakin - "From my point of view, the Jedi are evil!" Yes, but why did he say that?!?!? There was absolutely NO justification given anywhere. Why would he suddenly decide it's absolutely fine to slaughter children.. sorry 'Younglings', oh yes because he's now on the Dark Side so it's fine. No doubt Palpatine gave him a checklist of all the things he could now get away with as he had joined the team. Like perks. Rather than imbue the characters with subtle shades of characterisation and moral incongruity, we are given two-dimensional goodies and baddies. The curse of bad writing from the prequels has sadly made it hard to explain logically why being on the Dark Side would neccesarily make you evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kadra Posted April 14, 2012 Share Posted April 14, 2012 As said above, a "perfect Sith" would be evil. But not if you totally reorganize the order as Darth Bane once did. :-) I believe the Sith order should be somewhat different. Using your power to whatever ends you like and for whatever reasons, be it mercy or love or any thing else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TKMaster Posted April 14, 2012 Share Posted April 14, 2012 Yes, but why did he say that?!?!? There was absolutely NO justification given anywhere. Why would he suddenly decide it's absolutely fine to slaughter children.. sorry 'Younglings', oh yes because he's now on the Dark Side so it's fine. No doubt Palpatine gave him a checklist of all the things he could now get away with as he had joined the team. Like perks. Rather than imbue the characters with subtle shades of characterisation and moral incongruity, we are given two-dimensional goodies and baddies. The curse of bad writing from the prequels has sadly made it hard to explain logically why being on the Dark Side would neccesarily make you evil. Pretty sure it clear to see why, watch the film, read the EP.3 novel, use your common sense. If you dont come up with the answer then sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
statistx Posted April 14, 2012 Share Posted April 14, 2012 (edited) I'd say the Empire works pretty much as Nazi Germany (not that i am in any way associating me with their ideals): They are led by people with evil intentions, but either get brainwashed into believing they do good or do it out of fear. I mean if i was an imperial commander and get force choked everytime i try to be mercifull towards the enemy, i would think twice of trying to be "good" Edited April 14, 2012 by statistx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kadra Posted April 14, 2012 Share Posted April 14, 2012 I'd say the Empire works pretty much as Nazi Germany (not that i am in any way associating me with their ideals) Oh, poor Nazi Germany. Will you let it be already. Like it was something uber-evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Solrac Posted April 14, 2012 Share Posted April 14, 2012 I'd say the Empire works pretty much as Nazi Germany (not that i am in any way associating me with their ideals): They are led by people with evil intentions, but either get brainwashed into believing they do good or do it out of fear. I mean if i was an imperial commander and get force choked everytime i try to be mercifull towards the enemy, i would think twice of trying to be "good" LOL seriously? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
statistx Posted April 14, 2012 Share Posted April 14, 2012 (edited) Oh, poor Nazi Germany. Will you let it be already. Like it was something uber-evil. I am from Austria, so believe me, I'm not one of the Americans that think everyone in Germany is still a nazi LOL seriously? Yes, if you toss aside the joking, I'd still say the comparison fits, as far as people following something they wouldn't, if they had a better chance. Edited April 14, 2012 by statistx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magisch Posted April 14, 2012 Share Posted April 14, 2012 Are all sith evil? No, just the successfull ones. Too bad they get extincted a few thousand years ago, after failing their Galactic Empire. Twice. sincerly, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Solrac Posted April 14, 2012 Share Posted April 14, 2012 Small pockets of violence / in-fighting now and then yes....full scale galactic war? Not without the Sith pulling the strings. If the Sith were gone, the Republic would likely find another entity to generalize/demonize. Like I said, peace is impossible in SW EU, & it's NOT totally the Sith's fault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain_Zone Posted April 14, 2012 Share Posted April 14, 2012 I'd say the Empire works pretty much as Nazi Germany (not that i am in any way associating me with their ideals): They are led by people with evil intentions, but either get brainwashed into believing they do good or do it out of fear. I mean if i was an imperial commander and get force choked everytime i try to be mercifull towards the enemy, i would think twice of trying to be "good" Please don't open that can of worms. Nothing good will come of it. As bad as the Empire is, it's just a story. What you are comparing it to was real life. It happened. On a lighter note, Vader pwned Hitler TWICE in the Epic Rap Battles. The last one with some help from Stephen Hawking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikdiBoken Posted April 14, 2012 Share Posted April 14, 2012 What I find interesting about this timeline is that it's not like the original trilogy, where it's a civil war with people chosing their sides based on ideology, this one is just a bog standard war, with people from one 'country' fighting people from another 'country' For example notice how nearly all Imperials speak with a British accent, and nearly all from the Republic have American accents (the Imperial agent even puts on an American accent to be under cover and sound less 'Imperial'.) So it's not as if people woke up one day and decided to become Imperials, they just happened to be born on an Imperial planet. And as for the Sith themselves, any force user on an Imperial world has to become a Sith, or die - so had a Jedi been born on an Imperial world rather than a Republic world then they would have become Sith as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TKMaster Posted April 14, 2012 Share Posted April 14, 2012 If the Sith were gone, the Republic would likely find another entity to generalize/demonize. Like I said, peace is impossible in SW EU, & it's NOT totally the Sith's fault. Sure they may find this group or that group of extremists and put them down quickly and quietly, nothing the real world "good guys" dont do. But without the Sith (and baring an absurd invasion by extra-galactic religious zealots...vong...eh) The galaxy would be a pretty traquil place by and large, remeber nothings perfect but it doesnt hurt to try. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain_Zone Posted April 14, 2012 Share Posted April 14, 2012 Just remember. It's Star WARS, not Star PEACE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
statistx Posted April 14, 2012 Share Posted April 14, 2012 Well, as much as you try to put morale and such topics on it, the psychological process is comparable. Sure, one is fiction, one is real. One is on a larger scale than the other, but still, fear and power added with lack of choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TKMaster Posted April 14, 2012 Share Posted April 14, 2012 Just remember. It's Star WARS, not Star PEACE. But the goal of the war was peace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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