Quick n' Dirty of Op dps (pve)

[Mystyfan]

Ok, here's the deal...

 

Due to the fact that my guild apparently needs more dps then heals in OPS runs, they have graciously decided that I should become a dps now . (in other words , I got drew the short straw apparently... yay me!!! )

 

However, I know NOTHING about ops dps since, all I have done since beta is heal, and since I ran with my bf on his BH , I didn't have to worry about it. My guild already has a concealment ops, so I went lethality.

 

I have looked at the sticky thread here, but has next to nothing about ops dps, especially that of the non-concealment persuasion, and when I have "just Google it noobsauce", I get links that basically say "meh... go sniper"

 

So to all you epeen epic ops dps-ers whom I KNOW love giving unsolicited advice, here is your chance to show me how theorycraft awesome you really are. Think of me like a small child who has to wear a special helmet. Use small words and use lots of pics (links) lol. OK..

 

1. I have ALL healing Colum gear.. I have the full tier set now, and I was wondering would this work as lethality gear until I can acquire new gear? which leads me to question two

 

2. What is the name of the tier set that I need to be getting now? IE: what stats am I suppose to be looking for? Do I need to replace my non tier Colum stuff like relics, ear piece, etc..?

 

3. What should my rotation as a lethality ops be?

 

 

Thanks for the help, hey..its not like I begged to be dps, this kinda got plopped into my lap last night...heh

[LeperJack]

So to all you epeen epic ops dps-ers whom I KNOW love giving unsolicited advice, here is your chance to show me how theorycraft awesome you really are. Think of me like a small child who has to wear a special helmet. Use small words and use lots of pics (links) lol. OK..

 

Being at work I don't have time for a lot of pictures and links, but I'll offer what I can. Let's get through the initial questions first.

 

1. I have ALL healing Colum gear.. I have the full tier set now, and I was wondering would this work as lethality gear until I can acquire new gear?

Yes, quite well.

 

2. What is the name of the tier set that I need to be getting now? (A) IE: what stats am I suppose to be looking for? (B) Do I need to replace my non tier Colum stuff like relics, ear piece, etc..?©

A. Enforcer is generally okay.

B. A little bit of crit will help you maintain your energy levels, But most say Cunning->Power->Surge. Frankly, I defer to others as far as stat weights go, as to get the best you're going to be pulling out a lot of mods and resocketing them.

C. That's going to depend mostly on the secondary stats it has. Alacrity is of relatively little use as lethality--right up there with accuracy. Avoid both. The items you have will most likely do fine until they can be replaced, even if they have these stats on them. When it comes to relics, hold onto a few biometric crystal alloys until 1.2 and have a guildie artificer put together a couple of rakata relics for you (as both will be tradeable)

 

3. What should my rotation as a lethality ops be?

Ehhh... I don't like rotations, especially as a melee-ish DPS in this game where you'll frequently be moving out of your effective range and back into it. Transitions like this monkey up rotations, and few classes have abilities/timing/resources that happen to line up well enough to actually have rotations.

 

Even so, what you use is going to depend on what "Lethality spec" you go with.

 

I currently use an 18/0/23 (medicine/lethality hybrid) spec. There's some debate between it and a full 31-point lethality build's effectiveness. Frankly, I haven't noticed how my damage has been any less (which is admittedly hard to do without parsing) and the ability to off-heal in a clutch/during downtime has been nice. (ex: SOA. Running down the platforms, damage output on the pylons isn't an issue for us. Keeping everyone topped off, and getting everyone ready to go at the bottom frequently is. We FLY down.)

 

Spec: Click here. Folks may disagree or offer other options on a few points here and there, but it works well for me, and I like it.

 

Pre-pull: Drop KP on yourself and the tank (at least one stack, 2 if you're feeling particularly frisky--if you have time and the need, drop a probe on everyone. No harm in having a full boat of TAs before you even start the encounter. Bonus: fraps of your game start off with a mini-droid bukkake video.)

 

This will also allow you to dump large amounts of damage at the beginning of the encounter--putting your initial "burst" to use, and bringing your energy back up with Adrenaline Probe to get back to "maintenance" dps.

 

Priorities:

Corrosive Dart/Grenade (maintain 100% uptime if possible)

Shiv on cooldown, Backstab when available/have energy

TA use: Stim boost first, Cull next.

If your energy starts to dip and Adrenaline probe won't be up for a while, Don't forget about rifle shot.

 

Don't forget/Situational:

Debilitate for a quick getaway in transitions. (talented)

Snipe/Explosive Probe/Etc. during long transitions when you'll be out of range for a while.

 

Probably safe to ignore/remove from bars:

Headshot/Eviscerate

Overload Shot - Some people keep it as occasionally they wind up with "too much energy" and need a way to get rid of some at range. I have TA up enough to use Cull frequently which keeps my energy pretty well managed. When I'm at a distance, snipe/EP is the better option, assuming I'm not dropping more kolto probes on friendlies.

 

About Kolto Probe:

It's a % proc. It's not a guarantee of TA, but I do find it to be reliable enough to work with.

 

With Kolto Probe (Talented) up on one person:

One additional TA Every 6sec: 30%

+1 tick: 51% (to have one by now)

 

On 2 people:

One additional TA every 6sec: 51%

+1 tick: 76%

 

 

Coming from a healer background, you've already got HoT watching down I'll assume, so learning to keep at least one stack up on yourself and someone else shouldn't be that much of a problem, and is a relatively small drain on resources when you consider the return you'll get from being able to dump additional Tactical Advantages on Cull.

 

Unlike healing, you won't really need to worry about keeping at least one stack of TA up at all times. Feel free to keep yourself completely tapped out.

 

Energy management will work mostly the same, with the difference of having the bonus from Lethal Purpose, Combat Stims and Endorphine Rush, so it's a bit more forgiving. License to Kill also makes sure that pouring out the Culls on your target won't hurt nearly as much.

 

 

I can't offer too much advice one a full 31-point lethality build, as I haven't spent a lot of time with it. The lack of TA to use Cull (and spending what I had pretty frequently on Stim boost) seemed frustrating and counter-intuitive to me.

Edited April 10, 2012 by LeperJack

[Urothefox]

^^

 

Pretty much this

 

Also, in regard to gear, I run 2 piece enforcer/2 piece PvP field tech. The enforcer gear is going to give you a boost to your Backstab crit and the field tech is going to give you

another tick on your orbital strike. The 4 piece bonuses on our dps gear are pretty lame.

 

You'll probably want to switch out most of the enhancements for something without accuracy. If you do, remember to save the mods/enhancements so you can put them in before 1.2.

 

Coming from a healer background, you should do fine with lethality.

[mSum]

I'm in a similar situation. Guild often has too many healers and not enough DPS. So thanks for this post.

 

Why is accuracy worthless? Don't you need like 110% or something to always hit a boss?

[LeperJack]

I'm in a similar situation. Guild often has too many healers and not enough DPS. So thanks for this post.

 

Why is accuracy worthless? Don't you need like 110% or something to always hit a boss?

Yes and no. (mostly "No.")

 

Early reports to that nature were based on an assumption that the hit table worked similarly to WoW, where boss mobs were counted as being several levels above the players always, and that their accuracy suffered a certain amount as a result. This isn't exactly true.

 

Later reports were based on a misunderstanding, believing that additional accuracy resulted in lowering of damage reduction from armor. This is also not true. It does reduce "defense" chances, but unless one is planning on doing a lot of PvP against people who are wearing high +defense tank gear, (and using rifle shot as your primary attack) it is also not a priority.

 

Tech/Force attacks have a base accuracy of 100%, while "ranged/melee" attacks start off at 90. Aside from rifle shot, (zero energy basic attack/filler) all the attacks you'l be using will be "Tech" attacks, and thus will always hit.

 

Accuracy will boost your chances to hit with Rifle Shot, but as this is intended as "filler DPS," (doing damage when you are waiting for energy to regen, rather than standing about being of no practical use) pursuing it is not nearly as important as ensuring that your main attacks are hitting to their full potential.

 

While accuraccy can be argued as being more important for classes that dual wield (offhand attacks suffer and additional accuracy penalty) I believe that they also work off of the 100% tech/force accuracy for all but "basic" attacks, and their off-hand attacks also have a very steep damage penalty applied as well, making them an almost negligible part of their overall DPS.

Edited April 10, 2012 by LeperJack

[Mystyfan]

Thanks for the info.. Hopefully this will make the forced-upon transition for me a little less painless..

[LeperJack]

Well, hopefully you'll enjoy the change. As much as I used to love healing, I haven't been a dedicated healer in an MMO in about 8 years. A lot has changed since then, (EQ introduced a tetris-like game for healers to play while we were staring at our spellbooks during fights just to make the role more palatable. Think about that for a second!) but the role of DPS remains largely unchanged, and relatively pressure free.

 

I may well catch some flak for saying so, but the DPS role is a peaceful step down from the high-pressure task of healing. Just remember all the things that used to drive you nuts as a healer and simply avoid doing those things. Your raid leads will love you.

 

In the meantime--if you haven't started already--practice, practice, practice. Raid night is no time to learn a new spec. (Voice of experience talking here, I'm ashamed to admit.) Try to get a night or two of HM Flashpoints organized. Better yet, if you're currently working on Hard or Nightmare mode ops, then see what you can do about getting an 8-man together for normal. You may be able to pick up some more appropriate gearbits as you adjust. It may well be the greedy jerk in me, but I always find a couple pieces of loot help to smooth over the game's little rough patches.

 

Of course, if you run into any more problems or questions, feel free to ask.

[Mystyfan]

I tried it out last night doing 4 man heroic dailies. I think I did pretty good, still gotta work some kinks out though.

 

I would compare Lethality to what my main was in WoW, a combat rogue . (although dots make it more assassination, but you don't have to be in stealth all the d@mn time)

 

Shiv is basically sinister strike, in that it builds up TA (combo points ) so that you can use your stim boost (adrenaline rush) or cull , and you have to use your dart and corrosive grenade up all the time (slice n dice and rupture) ..

 

Ohhh that reminds me, a lot of abilities on the tree give extra damage to poison effects.. Thats the dart and grenade right? Or are there any other ones.

[LeperJack]

Yep, it's quite similar to combat rogueishness--I was remarking on that to a guildie the other day.

 

In a hybrid build it's just the corrosives. (dart/grenade.) 31 point adds weakening blast to the list for the purposes of bonus damage on Cull. I am unsure as to whether these talents further increase the "30% additional damage applied" or not.

 

I've heard it suggested that Sever Tendon is also counted as a poison effect for the purposes of adding to Cull, but I don't quite have a full grip on all the code used in the construction of the effects (handilly provided by TorHead under an "Effect Details" drop down) and haven't had a chance to really confirm.

 

Honestly, I do really need to check on these, and may well do so this evening--time permitting.

Edited April 11, 2012 by LeperJack

[Ryemfoh]

I'm primarily a Concealment Op, but if I were to go Lethality Hybrid I'd probably spec something like this. The idea would be to keep DoT's up and just act as regular Melee dps the rest of the time. All the extra +damage skills more than make up for the slightly lower TA generation and loss of Cull, and you need to be in Melee range to Shiv for TA's anyway.

 

As a Heal-Lethality hybrid is a very useful spec in PVP, or if your guild sometimes needs a bit of off-healing.

 

I do believe that a full Lethality build (or full Concealment build) would be ahead of either hybrid - particularly post-1.2.

[LeperJack]

I'm primarily a Concealment Op, but if I were to go Lethality Hybrid I'd probably spec something like this. The idea would be to keep DoT's up and just act as regular Melee dps the rest of the time. All the extra +damage skills more than make up for the slightly lower TA generation and loss of Cull, and you need to be in Melee range to Shiv for TA's anyway.

In general, yes.

 

One of the benefits of using Cull over Laceration is the ability to more freely move in and out of melee range, allowing for an earlier start to your DPS during the (frequent) melee transitions. By the time you've thrown up your Corrosives, you'll likely be within 10m (Cull range) and there are multiple ways to generate TA beyond 30m, which provides a distinct advantage.

 

Given that the class has no effective gap closing mechanism (charge/sprint/etc.) maximizing uptime during movement and transition phases is exceptionally important. Operations fights are not stationary training dummies, which behooves one to consider the frequently employed mechanics when considering suitability.

 

As a Heal-Lethality hybrid is a very useful spec in PVP, or if your guild sometimes needs a bit of off-healing.

I pull aggro from (better geared) snipers who pull aggro from tanks. (not spamming taunts, or more likely we tank-check and pick a low threat target because we're jerks.) As that seems to be the best measure of DPS I can provide without parses, I'd put forth that it is viable for more than "off-healing."

 

Of course, without parses and damage logs it is all speculation at this point, and posting any "solid conclusions" would be irresponsible.

 

Still, that spec does look as if it could be enjoyable to play, and I may well give it a shot myself at some point.

Edited April 11, 2012 by LeperJack

[Ryemfoh]

One of the benefits of using Cull over Laceration is the ability to more freely move in and out of melee range, allowing for an earlier start to your DPS during the (frequent) melee transitions. By the time you've thrown up your Corrosives, you'll likely be within 10m (Cull range) and there are multiple ways to generate TA beyond 30m, which provides a distinct advantage.

 

Given that the class has no effective gap closing mechanism (charge/sprint/etc.) maximizing uptime during movement and transition phases is exceptionally important. Operations fights are not stationary training dummies, which behooves one to consider the frequently employed mechanics when considering suitability.

Agreed, but without the 30% boost to all DoT's from Weakening Blast (and the 15% execute boost from Devouring Microbes) I'm not sure that the base output of Lethality is high enough. As you say, it's very difficult to gauge these things without logs.

 

My biggest problem with Lethality is that the utility talents to get all the way up the tree are so lacklustre ... If Flash Powder works on bosses (even though they're immune to the actual Flash) then it's probably useful in Operations, otherwise there's nothing there that's appealing other than an AoE snare (primarily good for PVP).

 

As for the range - the 15% in combat movement boost from Infiltrator takes a lot of the pain out of movement mechanics, and as you said we have a bunch of things we can still use from range. The only thing lacking is TA's.

 

I pull aggro from (better geared) snipers who pull aggro from tanks. (not spamming taunts, or more likely we tank-check and pick a low threat target because we're jerks.) As that seems to be the best measure of DPS I can provide without parses, I'd put forth that it is viable for more than "off-healing."

Yeah, Concealment also steals aggro very (too imo) easily just following our standard rotation on low movement fights. I would like some kind of threat warning system even more than logs (although the logs will certainly help to refine rotations and finally put fact behind all the conjecture - particularly on the Operative forums).

 

Of course, without parses and damage logs it is all speculation at this point, and posting any "solid conclusions" would be irresponsible.

 

Still, that spec does look as if it could be enjoyable to play, and I may well give it a shot myself at some point.

This is very true. I should probably have added more "should"'s and "might"'s to my original post

 

I have always believed that if you enjoy playing a spec you will be more effective in that spec than another which you don't enjoy. I experienced this first-hand in WoW where as a Sub rogue my damage output was significantly higher than when I tried Assassin / Combat, simply because I cared enough to learn, practice, and pay attention to my rotation.

 

Theorycrafters had left the spec un-tested for months (before it was buffed), simply because the rotation required more micro-management than Sin / Combat rotations and wasn't as easy to model. Those of us that played / enjoyed the spec knew that it was viable for PVE as well as PVP, but still had to put up with all the "Lol - why you in PVP spec dude?" from group leaders (or even other rogues ... those were the only times I ever posted recount scores ).

 

In my opinion, all Operative specs suffer from this. Energy management tricky, and we have a huge bag of tricks. On top of that, people are still learning what works / doesn't work, and so far everything is based on in-game observation which is exceedingly hard in the heat of combat (and also inaccurate according to BW).

 

Logs and sims will help a lot with this, but ultimately people just need to experiment and come up with something that works for them.

 

Edit: Changed *** to Sin .. pesky language filter

Edited April 11, 2012 by Ryemfoh

[LeperJack]

Agreed, but without the 30% boost to all DoT's from Weakening Blast (and the 15% execute boost from Devouring Microbes) I'm not sure that the base output of Lethality is high enough. As you say, it's very difficult to gauge these things without logs.

The frequency of culls, availability of energy for other abilities certainly help a Med/Lethality hybrid put out more damage than one might assume at a glance.

 

My biggest problem with Lethality is that the utility talents to get all the way up the tree are so lacklustre ... If Flash Powder works on bosses (even though they're immune to the actual Flash) then it's probably useful in Operations, otherwise there's nothing there that's appealing other than an AoE snare (primarily good for PVP).

I can understand that view. One thing to bear in mind is that Lethality has relatively few points that need be put into "utility" (usually "utility improvement") talents. While it doesn't have any of the big hittters like Imperial Brew the small damage gains along the way do make up the difference. When comparing Concealment and Lethality side-by-side , it's very difficult to get up to Acid Blade without spending a lot of points on survivability talents*. While I have nothing against survivability, most PvE fights are designed so that DPS survival is created by mastery of the fight rather than demanded by talent expenditures.

 

While additional survival can make some fights more forgiving to the individual, it's more likely that the mistakes they'll be surviving will do more damage raid-wide. Being barely alive due to some talent choices while three of your fellow DPS are kissing the pavement is largely a moot point.

 

As for the range - the 15% in combat movement boost from Infiltrator takes a lot of the pain out of movement mechanics, and as you said we have a bunch of things we can still use from range. The only thing lacking is TA's.

Well, lacking TAs is what some folks might consider a Big Deal™, as it's a necessary resource--as much so as Energy.

 

As to movement: one of the reasons I recommended Slip Away be talented is that although the stun effect does not work in Operations, the movement boost does, giving you the equivalent of a BH dash away from the target combined with a parting gift of some small damage. (Re)establishing range is already addressed.

 

 

Yeah, Concealment also steals aggro very (too imo) easily just following our standard rotation on low movement fights. I would like some kind of threat warning system even more than logs (although the logs will certainly help to refine rotations and finally put fact behind all the conjecture - particularly on the Operative forums).

One of the main reasons for Concealment stealing aggro (which, from what I've seen generally only happens during trash pulls or very early in the fight--just my experience and not universal) is for its rather high initial burst. While it is possible for M/L hybrids (as well as full lethality) to produce some hellacious burst of their own, the playstyle does lead to more evened out, sustained damage, rather than a series of high peak damage and long moderate/low "valleys."

 

Low movement fights are usually earlier "entry level" encounters, where few groups have difficulty clearing content. High movement, mechanic intensive fights require more mobility than Concealment is able to provide for my tastes. Movement bonuses alone aren't enough to make me comfortable, especially when so much of the setup for the spec's main damage requires melee range, while Lethality need only hop back in every 6 seconds, or M/L can even function passably well at 10m with some lucky procs.

 

In my opinion, all Operative specs suffer from this. Energy management tricky, and we have a huge bag of tricks. On top of that, people are still learning what works / doesn't work, and so far everything is based on in-game observation which is exceedingly hard in the heat of combat (and also inaccurate according to BW).

 

Logs and sims will help a lot with this, but ultimately people just need to experiment and come up with something that works for them.

They do have something of a point. "Feel" in combat is great for gauging fun, but not great for accurate measurement. On the other hand I am uncertain what metrics BioWare is using for measurement, given some of their decisions.

 

A certain number of observations can be made under controlled situations and extrapolated upon from there, simulating mechanics by calling for exits or movement, etc.

 

Of course, in the end it will come down to logs and sims, and having a wide sample size to work from. As noted, "comfortable" will almost always trump "theoretically optimal."

 

*A 31 point Concealment build will include 11 talent points spent on survivability/utility instead of damage increases. One could argue this to be as low as 8, if you consider the movement buff to be a damage talent. A 31 point Lethality build will contain 6 points of utility/survival talents.

Edited April 11, 2012 by LeperJack

[Mystyfan]

Are the putting in SOME sort of damage log in the near future? It doesn't have to be linkable chatwise.. but it would be great to have a meter so I can see where I stand against others in the same tree as me when they start posting their numbers/

[LeperJack]

There is a damage log coming, but I don't believe it will provide any real in-depth analysis unless you pore through it manually.

 

I believe there is a link to a voluntary use 3rd party program (you can't spam it in game, it will not share collected data with even your Ops group members/coordinator unless you specifically give it permission to) in the PTS forum.

 

I'd check it out quickly, as with the patch being deployed tomorrow (looks like) the PTS server will likely be coming down soon and the PTS forum will likely be wiped.

Edited April 11, 2012 by LeperJack

[Mystyfan]

When the servers get back on I think I'm gonna try a hybrid spec instead of full lethality.. I need to put some shots in my mix too because I've also noticed that there can be times when I have nothing to use stab wise (shiv, backstab, etc) .

 

What are about the average dmg #'s our abilities crit for? I mean, does anyone know what numbers I should be trying for when I use the training dummies?