JediElf Posted April 10, 2012 Share Posted April 10, 2012 (edited) Well said OP! It's nice to see a hardcore gamer, accept SWTOR for what it is. *sage nod* I love story, art, Bioware convo wheels, Sith, and the leveling experience, and this game suits me just fine. I hope that you find the game that suits you, and your play style, someday. Good luck to you. Edited April 10, 2012 by JediElf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SorienHashan Posted April 10, 2012 Share Posted April 10, 2012 I'm speaking about hardcore players as those who complete the content as fast as they can, those often criticized for not enjoying the game and complaining afterward. The simple fact is that theirs' is a valid play style. It just may not be compatible with sustaining a long-term subscription to an MMORPG title without interruption. It's not sustainable with a themepark MMO such as this. The games that are focused around player driven content are the ones that can and do sustain the hardcore mentality. Games like Eve, shadowbane, DAoC, and even Everquest to a certain extent accomplished this. In Eve there is always content because of the never ending wars between militia's and corporations. In Shadowbane guilds could build cities and control continents which lead to intense politics and wars. DAoC's RvR was similar. EQ's PvE content was more exciting and more player driven because you were actually competing against other guilds to kill a mob. Each guild didn't have it's own instance you actually had to assemble your party and kill the boss faster than the other group. All of these things lead to a more sustainable experience that people will stick around with longer because the players keep it interesting. WoW and SWTOR do not have any aspects that are truly player driven and that is what makes them themepark games. If developers want to make a game that is really going to keep hardcore gamers around they need to think bigger and create the groundwork for players to build on. Not just another new instance or warzone that is just like the last 9000 we've played. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ansultares Posted April 10, 2012 Share Posted April 10, 2012 I am casual. I play SWTOR instead of watching TV. When Guild Wars became more effort than watching TV, I stopped playing. I do this when I want to switch my brain off, when building a model train car is too demanding.It's disappointing that because you place MMOs so low on the totem pole of activities, you also seem to expect everyone else to do so, or worse, you expect developers to do it for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorellianWannabe Posted April 10, 2012 Share Posted April 10, 2012 What literary review is this? Mass Effect 3 received over 75 perfect scores and won over 50 awards...I honestly think that speaks louder than this guy. EA will be fine as will BioWare; the people who took the real credibility hit is the Consumerist and the self entitled gamers. And Dragon Age 2 was a critical favorite as well-if you believe that gaming 'journalists' are truly objective and not beholden to the publishers in any way then I have some beachfront property you might be interested in. Don't worry, Bioware's caving to those "self entitled gamers" doesn't invalidate your screed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorellianWannabe Posted April 10, 2012 Share Posted April 10, 2012 I am casual. I play SWTOR instead of watching TV. When Guild Wars became more effort than watching TV, I stopped playing. I do this when I want to switch my brain off, when building a model train car is too demanding. So you're saying that SWTOR gameplay is easier than passively watching TV? And that's a GOOD thing? Does that mean you would constantly click the remote buttons if you were watching TV? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shingara Posted April 10, 2012 Share Posted April 10, 2012 (edited) And Dragon Age 2 was a critical favorite as well-if you believe that gaming 'journalists' are truly objective and not beholden to the publishers in any way then I have some beachfront property you might be interested in. Don't worry, Bioware's caving to those "self entitled gamers" doesn't invalidate your screed. That all depends on what gaming journalists you are infact talking about and which continent they are on. But feel free to carry on thinking the whole world is corrupt, i expect you to come out with 'power to the people next' and that your a member of the tooting popular front but i suspect your way to young to remember what thats from. Edited April 10, 2012 by Shingara Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dezzi Posted April 10, 2012 Share Posted April 10, 2012 That all depends on what gaming journalists you are infact talking about and which continent they are on. But feel free to carry on thinking the whole world is corrupt, i expect you to come out with 'power to the people next' and that your a member of the tooting popular front but i suspect your way to young to remember what thats from. Gaming journalists are beholden to the publishers and developers because if they don't consistently review said companies' games well, they'll get passed up and ignored for future review opportunities. In order to be competitive in game journalism, you apparently have to drop to your proverbial knees in front of the developers and publishers. The industry has become a joke in that regard, and it's made gaming journalists nothing but boot-licking softies who will say anything and score anything to get into the next media preview. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwD2GgWKIrs&list=FLFBhVFfQTT4BOq1FHkVvdJA&index=31&feature=plpp_video Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Octavariumdream Posted April 10, 2012 Share Posted April 10, 2012 Hardcore MMO's do exist, they're just typically lower on the production scale and generate very little interest. MMO's can really only be difficult one of two ways, by making you grind (which isn't hard), and by making enemies that require you to work as a team. Now the issue with that 2nd option, the internet is alive and strategies are often posted a day after content is released. No matter what they do, people find strategies vs AI and that's that. Make something as hard as you want, as long as it's beatable, people will find a way and do it then claim it's cake after repeating said event 100 times. A point and click game with abilities performed by clicking numbers, is never going to be truly hard. There's too much usually happening in lag fests to make severe timing included in all fights. You can go to PVP to maybe increase that challenge, but again with MMO's, you're limited to spamming the heck out of something until that person dies. There's rarely any skill involved once people have perfected a defensive/offensive skill set. You have X gear with X skill set, you'll win! If people want to play hardcore challenging games, go play Street Fighter 4 or something. You actually need to be skilled on a arcade fight stick or pad, you actually have to fight real people, and there's a myriad of moves, counter moves, timing etc that you have to learn in order to be successful. The best part, to get good at these games, you have to invest a RIDICULOUS amount of hours. Unless MMO's really start making you do more than click run and hit a number, they'll never be hard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DevonDs Posted April 10, 2012 Share Posted April 10, 2012 I want to start by thanking the OP for a well though out and well written post. In particular I would like to thank you for being able to express your opinion while allowing for the validity of differing opinions. I love this game, its the first time I have enjoyed crafting, first to time I have really enjoyed pvp. I am very engaged by the story content and the way it creates a story driven emotional experience for me. I'm on a server with a pretty good population and very rarely have any problems finding groups for heroics. I love having a companion who travels with me and the ..light/dark side......compaion affection dynamic adds a layer to my choices. I enjoy the level of exploration the game offers. I agree that this game may not be for every one, just as many games really aren 't for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ossos Posted April 10, 2012 Share Posted April 10, 2012 The game was made for casuals and noobs...oh and Starwars fans who believe that no matter what it is, if it has something to do with Star Wars, then it's a win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vingmotor Posted April 10, 2012 Share Posted April 10, 2012 what the heck is hardcore in games really? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MMornard Posted April 10, 2012 Share Posted April 10, 2012 So you're saying that SWTOR gameplay is easier than passively watching TV? And that's a GOOD thing? Yes. That is explicitly what I'm saying. It's a TV show where I have some control over it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MMornard Posted April 10, 2012 Share Posted April 10, 2012 game was made for carebears Welcome to my ignore list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AzKnc Posted April 10, 2012 Share Posted April 10, 2012 This is not a game aimed at the hardcore. Many HC gamers (like myself) are guilty of trying to make this game what it simply isn't. As the Bioware Rep on the Pax East Panel said, to Paraphrase "your focused demographic is usually dictated by how much the game cost to make. In the future when these game can be made faster and for less money, I'm sure we'll see a lot of games aimed a niche audiences like the hardcore but for now, you don't spend 300 million on a game for 70k-100k subscriptions." When I quit WoW years ago, I said i would wait for Swtor, as it seemed to have what i wanted from a game and after 7 years, it wasn't set in Azeroth. What i hadn't (but should have) anticipated was the targeted audience and how wide the net Swtor was casting. After hitting 50, raiding and rolling numerous alts to 50 It started to sink in that the overall difficulty level of this game is not what i expected. Then again, what I expected was based on what I had hoped for rather than what was most logical for the company and the subsequent game. Basically we the minority, the hardcore few will never change the aims of this game and would be silly to even try to. Accept What the game is, then evaluate if it is for you. Anything more is just trying to change something that was obviously not meant for your play style. And yet, with the ridiculous omission of loads of quality of life features such as dungeon finder, raid finder, dual spec, ac swtching, non frustrating traveling system, this game finds ways to alienate even casuals. Truth is, not even bw had clear in mind who the target for their game should have been, and that's why they're failing no matter how much useless content they pump out / announce, as said content is useless without the means to properly enjoy it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluerodian Posted April 10, 2012 Share Posted April 10, 2012 (edited) I can only laugh at this as if this were infact the case LA would have just let swg carry on along its merry way giving money to lucas with no investment at all by LA. Consolidation of the fanbase in to a model that LA finds more favorable would be one reason. The specific motives are unknown. Anything otherwise, unless directly from LA and/or SOE is conjecture at best. There's also Sony's reputation that has to be taken in to consideration, a deserved reputation at that. It didn't matter what they did with SWG, the game would never have recovered or ever turned high sub numbers due to poor reputation of the developer. There could be any number of reasons why LA would want to developed a game similar to SWG in-house instead of outsourced, including tighter creative control. We won't know yet, though, until LA decides to make an official announcement of whatever secret project it is that they're mass hiring for. Edited April 10, 2012 by Bluerodian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shingara Posted April 10, 2012 Share Posted April 10, 2012 Gaming journalists are beholden to the publishers and developers because if they don't consistently review said companies' games well, they'll get passed up and ignored for future review opportunities. In order to be competitive in game journalism, you apparently have to drop to your proverbial knees in front of the developers and publishers. The industry has become a joke in that regard, and it's made gaming journalists nothing but boot-licking softies who will say anything and score anything to get into the next media preview. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwD2GgWKIrs&list=FLFBhVFfQTT4BOq1FHkVvdJA&index=31&feature=plpp_video So like i said, because a few are you think all are which is just stupid, of course some reviewers are obviously biased to some games over others just the same. Its just the same as it is known that some mmo companys use water armys to flood forums with negative posts to give a bad feeling to the playerbase. But not all reviewers are corrupt, not all mmo companys play dirty tactics but if you feel like they are all corrupt then i pity you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dezzi Posted April 10, 2012 Share Posted April 10, 2012 (edited) So like i said, because a few are you think all are which is just stupid, of course some reviewers are obviously biased to some games over others just the same. Its just the same as it is known that some mmo companys use water armys to flood forums with negative posts to give a bad feeling to the playerbase. But not all reviewers are corrupt, not all mmo companys play dirty tactics but if you feel like they are all corrupt then i pity you. Of course not all of them are, but one bad apple spoils the bunch. Edited April 10, 2012 by Dezzi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluerodian Posted April 10, 2012 Share Posted April 10, 2012 So like i said, because a few are you think all are which is just stupid, of course some reviewers are obviously biased to some games over others just the same. Its just the same as it is known that some mmo companys use water armys to flood forums with negative posts to give a bad feeling to the playerbase. But not all reviewers are corrupt, not all mmo companys play dirty tactics but if you feel like they are all corrupt then i pity you. It's better to assume the worst and be pleasently surprised than it is to assume the best and get kicked in the crotch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dashspeed Posted April 10, 2012 Share Posted April 10, 2012 This is not a game aimed at the hardcore. Many HC gamers (like myself) Watch out we got a ****** over here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shingara Posted April 10, 2012 Share Posted April 10, 2012 (edited) Of course not all of them are, but one bad apple spoils the bunch. No, one bad apples spolis the taste of that apple. apples from another tree can still be nice and juicy. It's better to assume the worst and be pleasently surprised than it is to assume the best and get kicked in the crotch. And going through life expecting the worst is a self fullfilling prophecy, you expect to see the worst and you will mainly see the bad. Edited April 10, 2012 by Shingara Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dezzi Posted April 10, 2012 Share Posted April 10, 2012 No one bad apples spolis the taste of that apple, apples from another tree can still be nice and juicy. Horrible misinterpretation of the phrase... http://voices.yahoo.com/popular-phrases-origin-meaning-2718025.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shingara Posted April 10, 2012 Share Posted April 10, 2012 (edited) Horrible misinterpretation of the phrase... http://voices.yahoo.com/popular-phrases-origin-meaning-2718025.html I knew exactly what you meant and what i said meant that one bad person doesnt taint the person they are standing next to. Just as a company sending out reviews that the masses can totaly see was a paid for review will make people doubt the validity of future reviews from them. So a company or magazine that does honest reviews that the people who play the game based on there reviews see where the reviewer was coming from and see that buying a game based of there review was a good thing gets the reputation of holding good reviews. Edited April 10, 2012 by Shingara Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P-Funk Posted April 10, 2012 Share Posted April 10, 2012 The words "casual" and "hardcore" are almost entirely without any concrete meaning. Mostly they're used as derogatory labels. Thats my whole point. Hardcore is such a broad meaning, yet people often use the dismissive definition to argue against what could be legitimate complaints about the difficulty. Also I deliberately avoided calling people casual and instead focused on what they defined specifically as their vision of how they want to play the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AshpoolPhoenix Posted April 10, 2012 Share Posted April 10, 2012 (edited) Honestly, there's no "hardcore" mmo players. Hardcore is loosely defined and translates to "who has the most time to invest in the game". Many people such as OP have said they've rolled "numerous" alts in 50. That's just having more time to play, not "hardcore". Unless you define hardcore as having more time than most players, then yes, you're "harcore". I have a level 42, and 27 which has taken me two months to do and I log at least 4 hours a night. Now if you've levelled 5 alts to 50 and geared your main at 50 that tells me you've played a crapload of the game, don't complain about a game you've dried out for yourself. Edited April 10, 2012 by AshpoolPhoenix Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluerodian Posted April 10, 2012 Share Posted April 10, 2012 And going through life expecting the worst is a self fullfilling prophecy, you expect to see the worst and you will mainly see the bad. It's worked out for me, so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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