Yrin Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 Incoming text-wall, my apologies. Your input is appreciated. Ok, so last night I logged in an was immediately set upon by 3 other 50's to do a Black Talon HM. Group was comprised of a juggernaut, a merc, a sorcerer, and myself as a powertech. Merc was dps and our sorc was on heals. Jugg and I are both tank spec, and I know 2 tanks aren't optimal for hm's but we were the only 50's on and wanted to give it a go. I've thought about going pyro since this toon is my first pure tank in years of playing mmos, but I leveled as a tank and currently have no dps gear. Jugg and I discuss it and decide I'll tank, with him as dps/off-tank and off we go. First boss, no problem. I hold him, while the jugg focuses on the aoe spawns. We down him in no time. Optional boss, we start to have issues. We aren't fielding the dps to burn through enragement timers, and are getting our butts handed to us. Sorcerer make the comment after I go down, that the jugg seems easier to keep up. After several wipes, we give up and move on. Mon Cal boss, I had no issues to start. Jugg and I set up an interupt pattern for his aoe drops. Tanking fine until he enrages. Boss goes red and i'm dead in no time flat. Ok, we try again...and again. Same thing. I'm popping all my defensive cd's as soon as he enrages and I can't stay up. Finally, after the last time I drop, Jugg is able to hold him while the merc and he finish the job. I'm still running back in. Jedi boss....ugh...We had no problems with the aoe grab/one-shot she does. Again, I held her with no problems until the enrage timer went off. Dead in less than 5 secs after popping defensive cds. Repeated this several times until I suggested the jugg tank her, and he did. No problems. She enraged and he just stood there and took it. Didn't try and kite her or anything. Sorcerer was able to heal him right through till she dropped. I was like ***?! We were ecstatic that we finished the run, but I'm left wondering what happened. Do juggs have some talent or ability I'm not aware that shields them against that onslaught? We compared stats afterward, and I beat him hands down save for defense. I'm at 8.28% and he's at 14. Is that enough to give him the edge? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anderofindel Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 This has nothing to do with your lack of skills as a a tank, and everything to do with not having enough DPS. HM bosses are gearchecks, if you don't have two real DPS'ers you are going to run into enrage timers and at least one of you will die. Don't sweat it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nydar Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 This has nothing to do with your lack of skills as a a tank, and everything to do with not having enough DPS. HM bosses are gearchecks, if you don't have two real DPS'ers you are going to run into enrage timers and at least one of you will die. Don't sweat it This is truth, also having a mediocre healer, or one distracted by cookie crisps, can be the death of you. When your dps is champ gear or better I've found death's don't occur as much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agooz Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 Incoming text-wall, my apologies. Your input is appreciated. Ok, so last night I logged in an was immediately set upon by 3 other 50's to do a Black Talon HM. Group was comprised of a juggernaut, a merc, a sorcerer, and myself as a powertech. Merc was dps and our sorc was on heals. Jugg and I are both tank spec, and I know 2 tanks aren't optimal for hm's but we were the only 50's on and wanted to give it a go. I've thought about going pyro since this toon is my first pure tank in years of playing mmos, but I leveled as a tank and currently have no dps gear. Jugg and I discuss it and decide I'll tank, with him as dps/off-tank and off we go. First boss, no problem. I hold him, while the jugg focuses on the aoe spawns. We down him in no time. Optional boss, we start to have issues. We aren't fielding the dps to burn through enragement timers, and are getting our butts handed to us. Sorcerer make the comment after I go down, that the jugg seems easier to keep up. After several wipes, we give up and move on. Mon Cal boss, I had no issues to start. Jugg and I set up an interupt pattern for his aoe drops. Tanking fine until he enrages. Boss goes red and i'm dead in no time flat. Ok, we try again...and again. Same thing. I'm popping all my defensive cd's as soon as he enrages and I can't stay up. Finally, after the last time I drop, Jugg is able to hold him while the merc and he finish the job. I'm still running back in. Jedi boss....ugh...We had no problems with the aoe grab/one-shot she does. Again, I held her with no problems until the enrage timer went off. Dead in less than 5 secs after popping defensive cds. Repeated this several times until I suggested the jugg tank her, and he did. No problems. She enraged and he just stood there and took it. Didn't try and kite her or anything. Sorcerer was able to heal him right through till she dropped. I was like ***?! We were ecstatic that we finished the run, but I'm left wondering what happened. Do juggs have some talent or ability I'm not aware that shields them against that onslaught? We compared stats afterward, and I beat him hands down save for defense. I'm at 8.28% and he's at 14. Is that enough to give him the edge? BT is the easiest HM, and I mean by far. That said it only takes 2 decently geared to carry 2 fresh 50s through it. I really think the issue here was that all of you were under geared, which means having a optimum group is even more important, meaning no 2 tanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yrin Posted April 4, 2012 Author Share Posted April 4, 2012 BT is the easiest HM, and I mean by far. That said it only takes 2 decently geared to carry 2 fresh 50s through it. I really think the issue here was that all of you were under geared, which means having a optimum group is even more important, meaning no 2 tanks. Counting feet, legs, chest, hands, head, and weapon, I'm missing 1 mod from dailies. I haven't earned my earpiece or implants as of yet. Currently equipped are a level 50 blue ear, a Columi Supercommando implant, and a level 50 prototype implant. Bracers are Dalarian Supercommando's. My belt is currently a weak spot as I'm on a lower pop server and haven't yet found a purple or orange to replace the blue I have now. Current Defensive stats 16k hp unbuffed 7325 Armor Damage Reduction 49.42% Defense 8.28% Shield Chance 44.03% Shield Absorption 42.07% Juggernaut beat me only in defense and was similarly geared (oranges with daily mods). We may be under-geared, and I'll be the first to agree we were lacking in dps. What I don't understand is how our sorcerer was able to heal the jugg through the whole last fight including the enrage buff while I dropped like a star destoyer landed on me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clearsighted Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 The problem was that the jug was doing horrible DPS, and so you couldn't beat the timer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MagnisLupus Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 (edited) Counting feet, legs, chest, hands, head, and weapon, I'm missing 1 mod from dailies. I haven't earned my earpiece or implants as of yet. Currently equipped are a level 50 blue ear, a Columi Supercommando implant, and a level 50 prototype implant. Bracers are Dalarian Supercommando's. My belt is currently a weak spot as I'm on a lower pop server and haven't yet found a purple or orange to replace the blue I have now. Current Defensive stats 16k hp unbuffed 7325 Armor Damage Reduction 49.42% Defense 8.28% Shield Chance 44.03% Shield Absorption 42.07% Juggernaut beat me only in defense and was similarly geared (oranges with daily mods). We may be under-geared, and I'll be the first to agree we were lacking in dps. What I don't understand is how our sorcerer was able to heal the jugg through the whole last fight including the enrage buff while I dropped like a star destoyer landed on me. It was likely the defense rate, yours is kinda low, PT tanks are mostly about shield rate and absorb, but you can't throw away defense rate completely, the 6% the jugg had on you can make a pretty big difference, you need more than you have..... also the healer may have finally started paying attention after several wipes and tried something differently. Edited April 4, 2012 by MagnisLupus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agthomson Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 Counting feet, legs, chest, hands, head, and weapon, I'm missing 1 mod from dailies. I haven't earned my earpiece or implants as of yet. Currently equipped are a level 50 blue ear, a Columi Supercommando implant, and a level 50 prototype implant. Bracers are Dalarian Supercommando's. My belt is currently a weak spot as I'm on a lower pop server and haven't yet found a purple or orange to replace the blue I have now. Current Defensive stats 16k hp unbuffed 7325 Armor Damage Reduction 49.42% Defense 8.28% Shield Chance 44.03% Shield Absorption 42.07% Juggernaut beat me only in defense and was similarly geared (oranges with daily mods). We may be under-geared, and I'll be the first to agree we were lacking in dps. What I don't understand is how our sorcerer was able to heal the jugg through the whole last fight including the enrage buff while I dropped like a star destoyer landed on me. From your description and stats posted above i'd say you are a little shy on HP and Defense. The HP can be mitigated by Stims, but I agree with the above poster that you shold maybe try to increase the Defense chance. Could have been that the healer was trying to keep up 2 targets, when he should have focussed on you. Have you got a +shield relic? They can be very useful, and I believe you can pick up the PvP variant quite cheaply (okay, it'd be a wasted stat in Expertise, but the "on use" part would be good). Better management of the CD's could also help a little (no idea what your rotation is or tactic). Overall, there isn't much difference between the three tanking AC's. Each one has their own niche (PT better at multi-target), but should be capable of doing everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wizex Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 Ok now this is my first post/reply on the forums but for once I think I do know the cause... ok so what the OP is saying is that the JUGG tank was able to take on the enraged boss much better then he was well thats really a simple answer The JUGG tank has much better O'crap cooldowns then a powertech tank does so once you died the enraged boss went to the jugg who poped his defensive cooldowns and so to you appeard to be able to tank a enraged boss alot better then yourself... I have a level 50 powertech tank and I could not be more pleased with how he can take the damage... from what i know a PT tank has the best overall mitagation of all the tanks but has the weakest cooldowns while a jugg has the worst avg mitagation but the best cooldowns with a sin tank in the middle ( though I am not saying a jugg tank has bad avg mitigation just lower then a PT) Dont take what I have said to the bank.... this is all just based off of months as playing as a powertech tank sense beta and from the months of research into the diff tanking classes in swtor that I have done to be the best tank I can be... to OP ...hang in there powertechs make outstanding tanks (the best I think) again this is my first post/reply to the fourms plz excuse my grammer and spelling and plz dont flame me to hard this is all just my opinion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prolyfic Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 (edited) Yes, enrage timers were the first reason. Some HMs are very difficult to do with two tank specs when all ppl there need the gear from it. That said, there are some other factors at play, namely the concept of defense as a mitigation statistic (jugg) vs absorb (PT) Juggs can handle enrage timers better, especially with sorcerors. they can also handle them worse. The reason why is the concept of defense, it's a % chance to miss completely, while PTs have a % reduction to their incoming dmg, but the dmg never really "stops" coming in on the PT, even during our CDs.. it just lessens the total. And the enrage hits are more than 15-20k sometimes so if you dodge that completely as a Jugg you're fine but if you shield it for 40% reduced as a PT, you're still screwed. If the Jugg gets lucky, he can go three or four GCDs without taking a hit, but if he gets unlucky and hit successively, or finds himself out of CDs when enrage hits, he will go down faster than the PT. There's also the small factor of sorceror bubbles synergizing very well with Jugg cooldowns, while actually impeding the PTs ability to vent heat by preventing incoming hits to proc absorb, which vents heat, which limits everything we can do offensively and defensively. For more info on this very topic, please see my examination of the differences in PT vs Jugg damage mitigation:"PT vs Jugg, The Fundamental Difference" Edited April 4, 2012 by Prolyfic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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