When can we expect to see a nerf of the Hybrid Sin/Shadow? + Proposed changes

[Cowflab]

So since you couldn't answer the questions I posed about tank damage, now you're going to go after survivability? By going after the one cooldown that somewhat makes up for the fact that Assassins have the lowest DR out of all the tanks?

 

Even if your proposed nerf wouldn't affect PvE (which I disagree with), can you demonstrate exactly how Assassins have too much survivability? Assassins are strong for 5 seconds, after which they are the squishiest of any of the tanks. How is that a problem? Please demonstrate this with some actual numbers, which is how game designers actually balance their games.

 

Why are you being so hostile? Did you read what he was discussing with me, and in which context he was trying to use? Why is it his responsibility to place labels on the questions you're asking?

 

Also, the questions you're posing are quite broad. Most of which being rhetorical simply because we are not on the dev team and don't really have a solid grasp of the overall design and direction of the game. That is a pretty common debate fallacy known as " begging the question."

 

I'm actually in agreement with much of what you say, but your method of approach needs to be altered in order for you to truely make your point to people of differing view points.

Edited April 6, 2012 by Cowflab

[_Scattered_]

It is again time to ask the questions that not one single person is willing to answer: Exactly how much damage is 'too much' and how much damage should a tank (any tank) do compared to a Damage spec?

 

Apparently not much more than a healer...

 

How much damage is 100k protection worth though especially since most of it shared instead of mitigated.

 

Those "tank's" doing all that damage have 17k hp in BiS and half the dps classes have considerable armor penetration not to mention shields in pvp are garbage.

 

What this is is an irrational perception that "tanks" should do very little damage despite them performing very different functions in PvP than PvE.

 

Low damage tank's would be benched in favour of another healer.

 

And has already been mentioned dps specs that are beasting all wz tend to kill the other team, which puts a ceiling on the total damage that can potentially be done. They also wreck the healers which has the same effect.

 

If players really want to nerf tank damage to suit their preconceived notions of what tanks should be then taunts need to be tank tree exclusive with a significant reduction in cooldown of the single target taunt in pvp. And shields need to work on all attacks, right now shadow tanks are balanced around their high shield chance in pve, since shields are awful in pvp shadows are weak at actual tanking.

Edited April 6, 2012 by _Scattered_

[DimeStax]

It is again time to ask the questions that not one single person is willing to answer: Exactly how much damage is 'too much' and how much damage should a tank (any tank) do compared to a Damage spec?

 

The reason your question hasn't been answered is because there is no absolute answer for the question you are asking. If it was an answer someone could come up with and made sense, I'm sure they'd have a job at BW and we wouldn't even be discussing this. Since we don't even have combat logs right now on live servers, the only thing we can go by is how we as pvpers "feel" what gameplay and balance should be like.

 

As far as a nerf is concerned, I wouldn't say there is a certain damage number I am thinking about when it comes to tank specced Assassin/Shadows, but rather some kind of nerf that will offest the pvp utility or damage of the class, for specific abilities. This can be done by not necessarily reducing damage, but also by lengthening cooldowns or adding and removing passive abilities generalized to each AC. Perhaps something like a Sorcerers Force Lightening has a snare aspect attached to the ability, but the Assassin's doesn't similar to how an Imperial Agents Dodge ability removes all negative effects when activated but the Snipers doesn't. Or maybe the Lightening Stun for Assassins is melee range only instead of 35m range like the Sorcerers... there are a number of things that can be done to further separate some of the utility that Sorcerers get from Assassins.

 

There isn't a definitive answer of how much less damage an Assassin tank should do, because the resolution to balance for the class doesn't even have to include nerfing the damage, but instead it could be done through nerfing other aspects of the class like their utility.

[Neamhan]

Why are you being so hostile? Did you read what he was discussing with me, and in which context he was trying to use? Why is it his responsibility to place labels on the questions you're asking?

 

Also, the questions you're posing are quite broad. Most of which being rhetorical simply because we are not on the dev team and don't really have a solid grasp of the overall design and direction of the game. That is a pretty common debate fallacy known as "begging the question."

 

I'm actually in agreement with much of what you say, but your method of approach needs to be altered in order for you to truely make your point to people of differing view points.

 

I'm not sure why you think there was hostility in my post. There was no namecalling or insults directed at the person I was addressing. The reason I asked him specifically is because he's been posting in these multiple threads calling for Assassin nerfs for quite a while now and it's difficult, if not impossible, to have any kind of discussion about actual balance without real data as a framework.

 

This - 'we are not on the dev team and don't really have a solid grasp of the overall design and direction of the game' - is probably the single most applicable statement made in any of the nerf threads (or even buff threads) on this whole forum. However, on the test server we do have access to combat logs to at least get some data to work with. Also, my questions were broad deliberately so the answers could be broad as well, so at least we have some idea what people actually mean by 'too much'. Something like '50% of Damage specs' is fine as an answer. It's not one I'd agree with personally, but at least then there would be some kind of figure to discuss rather than a vague, nebulous idea.

[Cowflab]

I'm not sure why you think there was hostility in my post. There was no namecalling or insults directed at the person I was addressing. The reason I asked him specifically is because he's been posting in these multiple threads calling for Assassin nerfs for quite a while now and it's difficult, if not impossible, to have any kind of discussion about actual balance without real data as a framework.

 

This - 'we are not on the dev team and don't really have a solid grasp of the overall design and direction of the game' - is probably the single most applicable statement made in any of the nerf threads (or even buff threads) on this whole forum. However, on the test server we do have access to combat logs to at least get some data to work with. Also, my questions were broad deliberately so the answers could be broad as well, so at least we have some idea what people actually mean by 'too much'. Something like '50% of Damage specs' is fine as an answer. It's not one I'd agree with personally, but at least then there would be some kind of figure to discuss rather than a vague, nebulous idea.

 

Even placing a random percentage on your question accomplishes nothing, as far as concluding the topic goes. One can arbitrarily say 75%, but without the entire design concept taken into consideration, the group will never come to a collective agreement because you would literally have to weigh every utility and damage ability of the tank specs to every other class in the game. The problem with that is that every class is different and possesses a different skill set. To put it simply, you can't compare apples to oranges. Which I'm fairly certain was your point all along and happens to be one that I agree with.

Edited April 6, 2012 by Cowflab

[DimeStax]

Apparently not much more than a healer...

 

How much damage is 100k protection worth though especially since most of it shared instead of mitigated.

 

Those "tank's" doing all that damage have 17k hp in BiS and half the dps classes have considerable armor penetration not to mention shields in pvp are garbage.

 

What this is is an irrational perception that "tanks" should do very little damage despite them performing very different functions in PvP than PvE.

 

Low damage tank's would be benched in favour of another healer.

 

And has already been mentioned dps specs that are beasting all wz tend to kill the other team, which puts a ceiling on the total damage that can potentially be done. They also wreck the healers which has the same effect.

 

If players really want to nerf tank damage to suit their preconceived notions of what tanks should be then taunts need to be tank tree exclusive with a significant reduction in cooldown of the single target taunt in pvp. And shields need to work on all attacks, right now shadow tanks are balanced around their high shield chance in pve, since shields are awful in pvp shadows are weak at actual tanking.

 

The notion is preconceived for a reason; because it's logical. If you have three classes A, B, and C and A is strictly a DPS class, B is a tank/dps class, and C is a healer/dps class then their abilities in damaging/healing/guarding should balance out. Given that everything is the same, if a healer/dps class or tank/dps class can put out as much damage as the strictly DPS class through utilizing all of their abilities (including ones that keep them alive longer) then that means that the class is imbalanced. Either the DPS class needs more abilities to keep them alive longer, or the healer/dps and tank/dps need adjustments to their survivability or DPS so they are doing less damage and focusing more on performing their roles they are designed to play.

 

You want the classes to be flexible so that even a tank specced player can switch to DPS if the situation calls for it, but not so flexible that he can do it without incurring any severe penalties to his other function like tanking or to the point where the strongest damage spec is actually the tank spec simply because of the survivability it offers in the long run. You don't want people speccing tanking to deal damage, you want them speccing tank to tank.

Edited April 6, 2012 by DimeStax

[Cowflab]

The notion is preconceived for a reason; because it's logical. If you have three classes A, B, and C and A is strictly a DPS class, B is a tank/dps class, and C is a healer/dps class then their abilities in damaging/healing/guarding should balance out. Given that everything is the same, if a healer/dps class or tank/dps class can put out as much damage as the strictly DPS class through utilizing all of their abilities (including ones that keep them alive longer) then that means that the class is imbalanced. Either the DPS class needs more abilities to keep them alive longer, or the healer/dps and tank/dps need adjustments to their survivability or DPS so they are doing less damage and focusing more on performing their roles they are designed to play.

 

The problem with this mindset is that the actual damage figure that people are using as an example with the tank specs is very specific and in uncommon, controlled situations.(ie turtled Voidstar, other team standing on top of each other in large groups, and pocket healers)

 

Does one balance around total damage output over the course of a game, or total damage in any given single encounter between x amount of opponents with gear and class distribution being equal on both sides?

[DimeStax]

The problem with this mindset is that the actual damage figure that people are using as an example with the tank specs is very specific and in uncommon, controlled situations.(ie turtled Voidstar, other team standing on top of each other in large groups, and pocket healers)

 

Does one balance around total damage output over the course of a game, or total damage in any given single encounter between x amount of opponents with gear and class distribution being equal on both sides?

 

Definitely not, which is why my argument is not based on WZ damage numbers, but instead just calls for a general rebalance in one way shape or form. I'm not here to defend other people's arguments just because I share the same core belief as they do (that assassins/shadows need rebalancing) I'm just here to support the topic and suggest possible alternatives.

[Neamhan]

The reason your question hasn't been answered is because there is no absolute answer for the question you are asking. If it was an answer someone could come up with and made sense, I'm sure they'd have a job at BW and we wouldn't even be discussing this. Since we don't even have combat logs right now on live servers, the only thing we can go by is how we as pvpers "feel" what gameplay and balance should be like.

 

I'm not asking for one specific hard number, even though technically it could be possible to get one on the test server now with the combat logs there. I'm asking for a more general figure. Example: I believe the Devs have said DPS specs should all be within about 5% of each other in damage. While we don't know how much damage the Developers think a tank should have compared to a Damage spec, that's the kind of answer that would work fine in a thread like this that's asking for nerfs. 10% less? 40% less? Since we don't know what the devs think is appropriate, what do the players think?

 

As far as a nerf is concerned, I wouldn't say there is a certain damage number I am thinking about when it comes to tank specced Assassin/Shadows, but rather some kind of nerf that will offest the pvp utility or damage of the class, for specific abilities. This can be done by not necessarily reducing damage, but also by lengthening cooldowns or adding and removing passive abilities generalized to each AC. Perhaps something like a Sorcerers Force Lightening has a snare aspect attached to the ability, but the Assassin's doesn't similar to how an Imperial Agents Dodge ability removes all negative effects when activated but the Snipers doesn't. Or maybe the Lightening Stun for Assassins is melee range only instead of 35m range like the Sorcerers... there are a number of things that can be done to further separate some of the utility that Sorcerers get from Assassins.

 

There isn't a definitive answer of how much less damage an Assassin tank should do, because the resolution to balance for the class doesn't even have to include nerfing the damage, but instead it could be done through nerfing other aspects of the class like their utility.

 

Fair enough, but defining what 'too much' utility is would actually be the hardest thing one could do. Guardians, for example, have as much (and in some ways more) utility than an Assassin. They also have better overall defenses. So the question then becomes: what is too much utility and how does one make a ratio of utility:defenses:damage? Those questions really are impossible to answer in a forum setting, and I imagine even the Devs struggle with them.

 

Just as an aside, Assassin stun is 30m. Did you know 31/0/10 Assassins have only 4 abilities usable at over 10m range? And all of them have longish cooldown times? They are: Force Pull (45s cooldown), Force Lift (1m cooldown, 2s cast time), Force Stun (1m cooldown) and Force Potency (1m 30s cooldown, increases the range on TK Throw to 30m). Only Guardians/Sentinels have less ranged abilities than that, and even then their Charge recharges much faster than any of the Assassin ranged abilities.

[AbhiX]

What opener exactly? Do tell. Because when I look at it, they can both use maul but infiltration's maul hits harder from talenting, and they can both use knockdown (worthless to use outside of luls). Please tell me what mysterious opener my class has in its tanking tree that I did not know about on my way to battlemaster.

 

You claim a few tank-sins "out damage" well geared infiltration specs? Do you realize the pretty numbers at the end of the game relate strongest to >who was alive longer< and >who hits more players at once (AoE)< etc?

 

Infiltration does more dps than a tank-spec assassin by a decent amount, the difference is the survivability and usefulness in a team compared to each other. Reducing an entire group's damage by 30% unless they hit you (taunt if you didn't know because you seem to not know a lot of things) follows by a low damage AoE that has an added effect of slowing the group by some % is more helpful to your team than the better-geared infiltration guy off hitting a healer with everything he has for 5 minutes (for I promise you more dps than KC) before dying to the healer or the help that inevitably comes to the healer's aid because his damage is still not incredible (but better than KC).

 

 

Also: everyone quit thinking numbers at the end of a warzone matter whatsoever. Sure 500,000 damage is some pressure for a healer somewhere, but if they didn't kill anyone and didn't protect anyone etc etc it was literally...pointless. Sure he made some healer heal alot, but that accomplishes... ?

 

I played infil spec for months until i switched to the kinetic spec. If you want to know exactly how kinketic build nets in more dps compared to infil build. I'll post here.

I will be comparing the 2/31/8 infil build with the 27/0/14 hyrbird kinetic build.

Both the builds use the same set. Bm stalker set, with focus offhand and most of the mods /enhancements replaced to net maximum power.

 

1. Infil gets a buffed up project at a 6 sec CD. Gets 30% base dmg and 50% crit dmg increase. Now buffed up with relics and adrenals, the thing hits for like 4.5k on other bm targets(less on tanks, but we r taking about non tank targets, using no defensive CD), followed up by a 45% chance for another hit. So this thing for infil could do around 7k dmg, if all the stars allign for u, or that u use Force potency.

The only problem is, I noticed...Regardless of my crit%, outside of Force Potency charges...This skill crit so less. This is what gimps it, Only project crits hit hard, the normal dmg is ******. Also since the buildup is obvious, any smart class uses a defensive CD before getting hit by the project( Just wait for 2 voltaic slash hits and pop a defensive cd)

 

Now For the hybrid kinetic build. We get an auto crit project. Without buffs, this things crits for 2.8kish on non tank targets. Using force potency gives it 50% increase crit dmg. So if using Force Potency and buffs, one could do around close to 6kish dmg with this.

4k basic buffed project and 2k for the extra hit.

The thing why i prefer this project over infil project is, This crits always!. Next, the cd isn't 6 seconds. It usually resets in 1 to 2 double strikes. I.E. cds ends up being close to 3sec to 4.5 sec.

 

2. Infil's Force Breach which is on a 12 sec cd, does around the same dmg as a project crit(first hit, not including second hit) if not used with full charges. But if some 1 gets all the charges for maximizing dmg, buffed up with force potency, this thing does about 5.5k dmg to pretty much all types of targets(Including tanks..since its internal dmg)

Hybrid gets a Force in balance, which does less dmg compared to infil's force breach. Non buffed crits are for around 2.8k and buffed crits are around 3.7k. It also does the same amount of dmg to all sort of targets as it is internal dmg.

Well infil clearly does more dmg in this one, but both the skills have a high cd to be really considered causing a dps difference

 

3. Infil's use voltaic slash, which does 1k+1k per crit. They use this to build up project and this is sort of the most used skill for infil.

HBybrid kinetic use double strike, which does like 1.3k + 1.3k. Around almost 500 more dmg than infil.

Since this is a no cd move. This causes a significant dps difference regarding the both

 

4. Infil's Shadow strike does about 30% crit dmg + 50% armor pen. So like 3.5k - 4k crits.

This hits hard if it crits, almost as much as a project crit.

Kinetic buffed up Tk Throw, hits for about 1.8k unbuffed and 2.3k buffed per tick.

so we r talkin about 3.6k to 4.6k dmg per 1.5 sec or 7.2k to 9k dmg in 3 secs

Compared to infil, kinetic wins this for sure.

 

5. Infil's finisher does roughly about 5% more dmg compared to Hybrid's finisher. So again nothing major.

 

This roughly comprises the skills both the specs use.

To sum it up

Every 1min and 15 secs infil can produce stronger burst compared to Hybrid.

But sustained dmg overall for Hybrid is better. Also, Hybrid's do have a burst, not as strong as infil, but its pretty good.

 

The reason why I am saying sustained for hybrid is better is not only because they can take hits from 5 different people while doing the hits, i.e. survive while dpsing. But also because, Infil's dont crit as much on the important skills and Hybrids crit way too much.

[Neamhan]

Even placing a random percentage on your question accomplishes nothing, as far as concluding the topic goes. One can arbitrarily say 75%, but without the entire design concept taken into consideration, the group will never come to a collective agreement because you would literally have to weigh every utility and damage ability of the tank specs to every other class in the game. The problem with that is that every class is different and possesses a different skill set. To put it simply, you can't compare apples to oranges. Which I'm fairly certain was your point all along and happens to be one that I agree with.

 

Oh, I know there will never be a collective consensus but the point isn't really to reach a consensus. It's just to have some kind of framework to have an actual discussion around. It's certainly more constructive than "it's too much/is not/is too".

[Zintair]

I am going to end this scrub argument once and for all with LOGIC.

 

1) All Shadows get Resilience, KC improves it by 2 seconds.

2) All Shadows get Deflection

3) All Shadows get Battle Readiness however its a 10% heal for KC instead of DPS buff.

 

 

4) According to EVERY SINGLE DPS Tank they ALL slot DPS Mods. They Slot DPS Mods because Shield and Defensive stats are useless, as cited numerous times by these baddies.

 

5) THE ONLY OTHER defensive cooldown a DPS Tank Shadow gets is Kinetic Ward (+15% shield). If Shield is useless no one cares about this.

 

6) Most "Good" players according to these people bypass armor anyway for superior "yellow" damage. So Combat Technique is also non-factor as it only buffs armor and threat with minor uncontrolled self-heals.

 

 

 

Knowing these 6 points... How can anyone argue that a KC DPS tank is any more survivable then an Infiltration or Balance Shadow?

 

KC gets self-heals? So does Balance.

 

 

If Infiltration / Balance AND KC have the nearly the SAME exact defensive cooldowns, Gear Set, Stats aka Crit/Pwr/Surge and potentially even lack a Shield Generator how can any one of them be considered more defensive than the other? Never mind "Unkillable"

 

By design the entire argument is flawed.

 

 

 

What makes the DPS Tank unkillable. A good Powertech Pyro and a Sorc will burn you down in 2 globals if you don't have a cooldown up. Operatives hurt as well.

[DimeStax]

I'm not asking for one specific hard number, even though technically it could be possible to get one on the test server now with the combat logs there. I'm asking for a more general figure. Example: I believe the Devs have said DPS specs should all be within about 5% of each other in damage. While we don't know how much damage the Developers think a tank should have compared to a Damage spec, that's the kind of answer that would work fine in a thread like this that's asking for nerfs. 10% less? 40% less? Since we don't know what the devs think is appropriate, what do the players think?

 

 

 

Fair enough, but defining what 'too much' utility is would actually be the hardest thing one could do. Guardians, for example, have as much (and in some ways more) utility than an Assassin. They also have better overall defenses. So the question then becomes: what is too much utility and how does one make a ratio of utility:defenses:damage? Those questions really are impossible to answer in a forum setting, and I imagine even the Devs struggle with them.

 

Just as an aside, Assassin stun is 30m. Did you know 31/0/10 Assassins have only 4 abilities usable at over 10m range? And all of them have longish cooldown times? They are: Force Pull (45s cooldown), Force Lift (1m cooldown, 2s cast time), Force Stun (1m cooldown) and Force Potency (1m 30s cooldown, increases the range on TK Throw to 30m). Only Guardians/Sentinels have less ranged abilities than that, and even then their Charge recharges much faster than any of the Assassin ranged abilities.

 

There is no ratio, because all damage and utility abilities are unique to each class and are used in combination with different sets of abilities from class to class, there isn't a simple ratio that makes one class more balanced. If balance is going to be achieved it needs to be done through trial and error, which can be a painstaking process. Nerf this ability by so much and see how the class/pvp outcome for other classes is affected and then decide if it needs to be less or more. This probably needs to be done with more than one ability.

 

For example, how does it affect the gameplay of a tank specced assassin who can stealth, but can't vanish? Is he living as long? Is he still running out of fights or is he performing his tank role more? Can he still taunt and then vanish to avoid focus fire? Not saying this is something that needs to be changed, but I'm just using it as a dramatic example of how to use trial and error.

Edited April 6, 2012 by DimeStax

[Cowflab]

Oh, I know there will never be a collective consensus but the point isn't really to reach a consensus. It's just to have some kind of framework to have an actual discussion around. It's certainly more constructive than "it's too much/is not/is too".

 

Ok, then let's say 60% of the dps a pure dps spec is capable of. Would this offset the utility that comes along with the spec? Probably not.

 

My suggestion, a rough idea at that, would be to add another 5-10% damage reduction while in dark charge and move disjunction(a 3rd teir darkness/KC talent which gives you snare break on force speed) to the deception/infiltration tree in place of say, the AoE damage reduction talent in the later deception/infiltration teirs. This does 3 things, reduces KC/darkness utility and slightly reduces its damage, adds survivability and utility to deception/infiltration, and keeps it out of reach of madness/balance. Would that be a fair change? Imo, it is and doesn't completely castrate KC/darkness like many in these types of threads are proposing.

Edited April 6, 2012 by Cowflab

[Varicite]

You want the classes to be flexible so that even a tank specced player can switch to DPS if the situation calls for it, but not so flexible that he can do it without incurring any severe penalties to his other function like tanking or to the point where the strongest damage spec is actually the tank spec simply because of the survivability it offers in the long run. You don't want people speccing tanking to deal damage, you want them speccing tank to tank.

 

I don't think that anyone is spec'ing into Darkness/KC to deal damage; that certainly wasn't anyone's motivation that I know.

 

They spec'd into Darkness to be a tank; Darkness does decent damage on a scoreboard because unlike the other tanking specs, 1/2 of its main rotation consists of AoE abilities, which means that it naturally pads its numbers.

 

A Darkness Sin cannot output anywhere even CLOSE to the dps of an actual DPS spec'd class. It is a tank that can do decent damage and provides incredible utility.

 

People also seem to confuse the fact that tanks wear DPS gear in PvP w/ a tank actively trying to be a damage dealer. This is NOT the case; most people know by now how worthless tanking stats are in PvP, and that tanks wear DPS gear because if they did not, they would be at a severe disadvantage compared to every other non-tanking spec in the game.

 

If Bioware would do something to make tanking stats worthwhile in PvP, you will see a lot of these threads about tanks dealing too much damage go away.

 

A tank in tank gear does not deal anywhere close to the numbers of a tank in dps gear, but you gain absolutely nothing by wearing tank gear. Why would anyone do this?

[Zintair]

Sheesh lets make 1 class with 3 abilities and everyone will be balanced.

 

 

The tanks each perform a different role in the group.

 

Shadow is the Melee Assist train tank

Jugg is the stay at home Defend the Healer

Vanguard can float tank back to the RDPS and Healers or join the MA train.

 

 

People just can;t grasp that there are roles that need to be performed and that each class fills a specific role.

 

The people who play the DPS tank want to Tank/Heal/DPS but are garbage at all 3. They will be crying come rated and will reroll or spec/reslot their mods.

 

Ill put 2 million credits on it Helm of Graush Server.

[_Scattered_]

The notion is preconceived for a reason; because it's logical. If you have three classes A, B, and C and A is strictly a DPS class, B is a tank/dps class, and C is a healer/dps class then their abilities in damaging/healing/guarding should balance out. Given that everything is the same, if a healer/dps class or tank/dps class can put out as much damage as the strictly DPS class through utilizing all of their abilities (including ones that keep them alive longer) then that means that the class is imbalanced. Either the DPS class needs more abilities to keep them alive longer, or the healer/dps and tank/dps need adjustments to their survivability or DPS so they are doing less damage and focusing more on performing their roles they are designed to play.

 

You want the classes to be flexible so that even a tank specced player can switch to DPS if the situation calls for it, but not so flexible that he can do it without incurring any severe penalties to his other function like tanking or to the point where the strongest damage spec is actually the tank spec simply because of the survivability it offers in the long run. You don't want people speccing tanking to deal damage, you want them speccing tank to tank.

 

The strawman is that I am arguing for tanks to do equivalent damage to dps, which is not the case, furthermore you are assuming what BW's design goal regarding tanks is.

 

Defensive gearing is never going to be as worthwhile in pvp while you cannot force people to attack you, tanking in pvp and tanking in pve are not the same thing. They should really have different names.

 

Guard is overrated where all players in a wz are geared/competent.

 

Outside of huttball utility in general is overrated compared to being able to wipe out the other team with high single target burst. And even then maras and dps sorcs have fantastic utility.

 

KC shadows tankiness is overrated too, they may be difficult to kill in 1v1 but that is due mostly to short duration defensive cd's and single target control which are nowhere near as potent in group settings.

 

Tanks must be able to provide decent dps assist to not be replaced by another healer.

[DimeStax]

I don't think that anyone is spec'ing into Darkness/KC to deal damage; that certainly wasn't anyone's motivation that I know.

 

They spec'd into Darkness to be a tank; Darkness does decent damage on a scoreboard because unlike the other tanking specs, 1/2 of its main rotation consists of AoE abilities, which means that it naturally pads its numbers.

 

A Darkness Sin cannot output anywhere even CLOSE to the dps of an actual DPS spec'd class. It is a tank that can do decent damage and provides incredible utility.

 

People also seem to confuse the fact that tanks wear DPS gear in PvP w/ a tank actively trying to be a damage dealer. This is NOT the case; most people know by now how worthless tanking stats are in PvP, and that tanks wear DPS gear because if they did not, they would be at a severe disadvantage compared to every other non-tanking spec in the game.

 

If Bioware would do something to make tanking stats worthwhile in PvP, you will see a lot of these threads about tanks dealing too much damage go away.

 

A tank in tank gear does not deal anywhere close to the numbers of a tank in dps gear, but you gain absolutely nothing by wearing tank gear. Why would anyone do this?

 

Maybe dealing damage and overall pvp utility wasn't the motivation of people going darkness at first, but it has certainly turned into that now as it has become the FOTM spec for Shadows/Assassins since it is becoming more and more recognized as an overpowered spec. You can pretty much tell any Assassin/Shadow "Go 31-0-10 and wear DPS gear and I promise you'll be a beast in PvP unless you just faceroll your keyboard all the time."

 

But you bring to light a good point. Maybe BW overlooked the fact that players who spec tank might gear DPS, and thus didn't balance the spec with DPS gear in mind. Now that it has clearly come to light, something should be done about it.

[DimeStax]

The strawman is that I am arguing for tanks to do equivalent damage to dps, which is not the case, furthermore you are assuming what BW's design goal regarding tanks is.

 

Defensive gearing is never going to be as worthwhile in pvp while you cannot force people to attack you, tanking in pvp and tanking in pve are not the same thing. They should really have different names.

 

Guard is overrated where all players in a wz are geared/competent.

 

Outside of huttball utility in general is overrated compared to being able to wipe out the other team with high single target burst. And even then maras and dps sorcs have fantastic utility.

 

KC shadows tankiness is overrated too, they may be difficult to kill in 1v1 but that is due mostly to short duration defensive cd's and single target control which are nowhere near as potent in group settings.

 

Tanks must be able to provide decent dps assist to not be replaced by another healer.

 

Utility is NEVER overrated in pvp. One might argue that PvP gameplay is almost based entirely on utility. Without utility, we're all running around with swords and 1 button to press that does +1 damage to the opponent. It's utility like stuns, snares, knockbacks, pulls, instant casts, heals, sprints, ranged attacks, stealth, vanish, and CC's that make PvP what it is.

Edited April 6, 2012 by DimeStax

[Zintair]

But you bring to light a good point. Maybe BW overlooked the fact that players who spec tank might gear DPS, and thus didn't balance the spec with DPS gear in mind.

 

This

 

They designed the spec to have an Auto crit. Any spec that doesn;t need to stack crit is naturally going to be powerful as they can then just stack Power and Surge and guarantee decent burst.

 

 

Not to mention BW had no idea how to gear from release up until 1.2

 

 

The spec however is still not that great with DPS gear. You perform too many roles decent. You don't excel at all.

 

 

AND STOP SAYING TANKING STATS SUCK IN PVP THEY MOST CERTAINLY DO NOT!

 

 

That is some BS from the people who started the whole Tank with DPS gear.

 

 

Cant wait for Rated to trolololol all you people who really believe this is an issue.

[_Scattered_]

Utility is NEVER overrated in pvp. One might argue that PvP gameplay is almost based entirely on utility. Without utility, we're all running around with swords and 1 button to press that does +1 damage to the opponent. It's utility like stuns, snares, knockbacks, pulls, instant casts, heals, sprints, ranged attacks, stealth, vanish, and CC's that make PvP what it is.

 

Which all specs have plenty of.

 

The extra utility tanks provide is overrated outside of huttball.

[DimeStax]

Which all specs have plenty of.

 

The extra utility tanks provide is overrated outside of huttball.

 

What exact utility are u saying is overrated outside of huttball?

[Neamhan]

Now this is a post I can get behind, since there are actual numbers involved. For the sake of discussion I'm going to take the figures at face value. I'm mostly just going to point out a few things with only a couple of things I disagree with.

 

I played infil spec for months until i switched to the kinetic spec. If you want to know exactly how kinketic build nets in more dps compared to infil build. I'll post here.

I will be comparing the 2/31/8 infil build with the 27/0/14 hyrbird kinetic build.

Both the builds use the same set. Bm stalker set, with focus offhand and most of the mods /enhancements replaced to net maximum power.

Using exactly the same gear, including a focus, means your health should be around the 16k to 17k range and you'll have 0 chance to Shield. Nothing wrong with that and Force/Tech attacks ignore Shield anyway. The big difference is you'd have about 24% DR in Shadow Technique vs 41% in Combat Technique at the cost of less damage (Shadow Technique procs hit harder per hit and more often, and Combat Technique has the -5% to all damage)

 

1. Infil gets a buffed up project at a 6 sec CD. Gets 30% base dmg and 50% crit dmg increase. Now buffed up with relics and adrenals, the thing hits for like 4.5k on other bm targets(less on tanks, but we r taking about non tank targets, using no defensive CD), followed up by a 45% chance for another hit. So this thing for infil could do around 7k dmg, if all the stars allign for u, or that u use Force potency.

The only problem is, I noticed...Regardless of my crit%, outside of Force Potency charges...This skill crit so less. This is what gimps it, Only project crits hit hard, the normal dmg is ******. Also since the buildup is obvious, any smart class uses a defensive CD before getting hit by the project( Just wait for 2 voltaic slash hits and pop a defensive cd)

 

Now For the hybrid kinetic build. We get an auto crit project. Without buffs, this things crits for 2.8kish on non tank targets. Using force potency gives it 50% increase crit dmg. So if using Force Potency and buffs, one could do around close to 6kish dmg with this.

4k basic buffed project and 2k for the extra hit.

The thing why i prefer this project over infil project is, This crits always!. Next, the cd isn't 6 seconds. It usually resets in 1 to 2 double strikes. I.E. cds ends up being close to 3sec to 4.5 sec.

Let's not forget the force cost involved here. A Project with 2 stacks of Circling Shadows only costs 23 Force, while a Project for a Kinetic costs 39 Force. In both cases you'll be using either Double Strike (23 Force) for PA procs or Clairvoyant Strike (25 Force) for Circling Shadows stacks. Infiltration will be getting more Projects off than Kinetic, even with the somewhat faster force regen of a Kinetic. Project will autocrit on a PA proc, but it will still do less crit damage outside Force Potency (which has that 1m 30s cooldown). What is your crit % in Infiltration? While you may curse RNG for not getting that Project crit when you need it as Infiltration, keep in mind that PA procs also worship at the altar of RNG and you can go long stretches without getting a PA proc.

 

2. Infil's Force Breach which is on a 12 sec cd, does around the same dmg as a project crit(first hit, not including second hit) if not used with full charges. But if some 1 gets all the charges for maximizing dmg, buffed up with force potency, this thing does about 5.5k dmg to pretty much all types of targets(Including tanks..since its internal dmg)

Hybrid gets a Force in balance, which does less dmg compared to infil's force breach. Non buffed crits are for around 2.8k and buffed crits are around 3.7k. It also does the same amount of dmg to all sort of targets as it is internal dmg.

Well infil clearly does more dmg in this one, but both the skills have a high cd to be really considered causing a dps difference

 

3. Infil's use voltaic slash, which does 1k+1k per crit. They use this to build up project and this is sort of the most used skill for infil.

HBybrid kinetic use double strike, which does like 1.3k + 1.3k. Around almost 500 more dmg than infil.

Since this is a no cd move. This causes a significant dps difference regarding the both

Only comment I'm going to make here is that the only reason you're getting 1.3k/1.3k crits with Double Strike is because of Adjudication, which a pure Kinetic won't have access to. This is the hidden gem of the only remaining hybrid spec.

 

4. Infil's Shadow strike does about 30% crit dmg + 50% armor pen. So like 3.5k - 4k crits.

This hits hard if it crits, almost as much as a project crit.

Kinetic buffed up Tk Throw, hits for about 1.8k unbuffed and 2.3k buffed per tick.

so we r talkin about 3.6k to 4.6k dmg per 1.5 sec or 7.2k to 9k dmg in 3 secs

Compared to infil, kinetic wins this for sure.

I will disagree with one thing here. I just tested TK Throw and in full DPS gear against a level 38 silver I was getting 1.8k damage per tick with 3 stacks of Harnessed shadows using 450 power adrenal and relic. Now, I know this is a mob rather than a player (albeit a mob well under my level) but it was just a quick and dirty test and we don't have combat logs on the live server yet. I think the amount of damage being reported on even a buffed up TK Throw is awfully high, but I'm sure we'll know for sure once everyone get access to combat logs. Also, keep in mind that an Infiltrator can get off two attacks in the same time that a Kinetic channels TK Throw, which can be interrupted with CC/Knockback.

 

5. Infil's finisher does roughly about 5% more dmg compared to Hybrid's finisher. So again nothing major.

 

This roughly comprises the skills both the specs use.

To sum it up

Every 1min and 15 secs infil can produce stronger burst compared to Hybrid.

But sustained dmg overall for Hybrid is better. Also, Hybrid's do have a burst, not as strong as infil, but its pretty good.

 

The reason why I am saying sustained for hybrid is better is not only because they can take hits from 5 different people while doing the hits, i.e. survive while dpsing. But also because, Infil's dont crit as much on the important skills and Hybrids crit way too much.

A Kinetic can crit a lot of Projects with a lucky string of PA procs, but overall they're going to get less Projects off than Infiltration, and the Kinetic Project crits usually won't hit as hard. Every other skill they should be critting at the same rate if they have the same crit rating.

 

I will say one thing, though. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if Bioware ends up making Adjudication work only in Force Technique. It and Force In Balance are the only two skills left that can be used in a hybrid build, and if Bioware has demonstrated one thing it's that they hate hybrid builds.

[DimeStax]

Now this is a post I can get behind, since there are actual numbers involved. For the sake of discussion I'm going to take the figures at face value. I'm mostly just going to point out a few things with only a couple of things I disagree with.

 

 

 

I will say one thing, though. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if Bioware ends up making Adjudication work only in Force Technique. It and Force In Balance are the only two skills left that can be used in a hybrid build, and if Bioware has demonstrated one thing it's that they hate hybrid builds.

 

They hate hybrid builds because they didn't design the game around then and didn't prepare for them. I'm sure they wanted to encourage cross-training and flexibility in a class, but I don't think they expected it would be anything like what they've put out. Almost every class has a hybrid spec that is more viable than an main spec build, partially because the talents at the end of the tree aren't class defining or game-breaking. People are discovering that well rounded versatility and more utility makes them a lot stronger than more of their same abilities buffed just a little bit more.

Edited April 6, 2012 by DimeStax

[Cowflab]

Now this is a post I can get behind, since there are actual numbers involved. For the sake of discussion I'm going to take the figures at face value. I'm mostly just going to point out a few things with only a couple of things I disagree with.

 

 

 

I will say one thing, though. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if Bioware ends up making Adjudication work only in Force Technique. It and Force In Balance are the only two skills left that can be used in a hybrid build, and if Bioware has demonstrated one thing it's that they hate hybrid builds.

 

The 27/2/12 witherless build still has access to Raze(the shadow equivalent escapes me atm) and I think is one of the only viable hybrid specs left in the AC. I have used the spec in the past and faired pretty well with it.

Edited April 6, 2012 by Cowflab