Feels like a single player RP

[Oofpez]

I have to agree with that, increasing population wont help encourage group play. The oceanic server is always almost full, but i can hardly find a party for FP. On average i run an FP or Heroic Missions once every 3-5 days due to the difficulty to find party members.

 

Its this game's design that somehow encourages pve solo play indirectly or something. Or abuse the lvl50s and get them to run you through everything or the fact that you can start WZ so early in the game and purely lvl and farm cash and commendations easily that everyone just WZ all day, only doing Class quests once in awhile. PvE grouping is almost dead, open world PvP is dead, when you can farm merc commendations from WZ.

 

The thing is, most players of this game probably don't fall into the "semi-social grouping" aspect that you (or I) seem to play by. Many of the people who play this game (not all) are either a.) new to MMOs in general, and don't really have a grasp on the need to do flashpoints (mostly because you CAN get from 1-50 without doing a flashpoint/heroic) or b.) those who just want to sit around all day waiting for their UI to ding to allow them into an instance.

 

I hope it'll change, but I really don't know.

[Dezzi]

1st of all thank you for using the term defender instead of a derogatory slur.

 

To answer your question, directed at me since I count myself in the defender population...

 

It's simple...it is ok for you to feel that what you are playing is a single player game...that is your feeling so I agree that youmight feel this is a single player game.

 

The second part of the question inspires a similar and logical response. you are paying a subscription because you chose to pay for a subscription to SWTOR..... A better question may be

 

why are you paying for a subscription if the game doesn't meet your needs and your definition of an mom and I would add unsubscribing is also an option when a game doesn't meet your needs.

 

To recap....feel what you want to feel, subscribe to what you want to subscribe to.

 

Right. I subscribe to the same "live and let live" philosophy, but at the end of the day if a developer wants their game to succeed, they have to meet or exceed player expectations. Creating an MMO that plays like a single-player game (factually so or perceived) is a gamble they stand to lose because the expectation is that an MMO will play like an MMO.

 

Well, because honestly, any 'new' player that jumps into, say, WoW, will have the exact same [single player] experience,(( since the game has become extremely toploaded and it's popularity has declined from, say, 2 years ago, )) with NONE of the happy frills [storyline, VOs, a reason to level besides phat loot] that TOR has.

 

most MMO's suck *** now particularly at low level, no one to play with, and their communities are mostly dead except for forum trolling, and their in-game communities are dead to newcomers, because people just don't socialize like they did when games FORCED them to.

 

As to why you're paying a subscription, well you're paying for the content and constant bugfixesthat they add on a regular basis.

 

Sucks? Sure, but you can't complain unless you've never downloaded DLC in your life, because it's basically what it is. DLC.

 

What about Skyrim? I paid once, but I get access to thousands of high-quality mods and regular official patches. There's no subscription fee for that game.

 

Is it for access to the servers? If the game is largely empty (which it is for a good bit of people) then what's the point of playing online?

 

You don't need access to servers for a single-player game.

[DevonDs]

Right. I subscribe to the same "live and let live" philosophy, but at the end of the day if a developer wants their game to succeed, they have to meet or exceed player expectations. Creating an MMO that plays like a single-player game (factually so or perceived) is a gamble they stand to lose because the expectation is that an MMO will play like an MMO.

 

 

 

What about Skyrim? I paid once, but I get access to thousands of high-quality mods and regular official patches. There's no subscription fee for that game.

 

Is it for access to the servers? If the game is largely empty (which it is for a good bit of people) then what's the point of playing online?

 

You don't need access to servers for a single-player game.

 

More importantly you don't need access to servers for a game you don't like. If I really enjoyed a single player game, there is a good chance I would pay a monthly to keep playing it...So bottom line...MMO, FPS...Mario Jumper...

If you don't like the game....dont pay....

many of us like this game and experience it as an mmo....we should keep paying.

You don't like it for various reasons that are entirely subjective (just like my reasons for liking it)

If you don't like it don't subscribe. It seems like a very simple answer to your question....Why should you pay....the answer is you shouldn't you should use yoru resources on games you do enjoy.

[terminova]

What about Skyrim? I paid once, but I get access to thousands of high-quality mods and regular official patches. There's no subscription fee for that game.

 

Skyrim isn't a MMO as is, therefor, completely irrelevant.

 

Is it for access to the servers?

 

Like....obviously.

 

If the game is largely empty (which it is for a good bit of people) then what's the point of playing online?

 

Objection, that's a biased opinion based on another biased opinion which is based on hearsay.

 

You don't need access to servers for a single-player game.

 

You are correct, you don't, but SWTOR isn't a single player game.

[Dezzi]

More importantly you don't need access to servers for a game you don't like. If I really enjoyed a single player game, there is a good chance I would pay a monthly to keep playing it...So bottom line...MMO, FPS...Mario Jumper...

If you don't like the game....dont pay....

many of us like this game and experience it as an mmo....we should keep paying.

You don't like it for various reasons that are entirely subjective (just like my reasons for liking it)

If you don't like it don't subscribe. It seems like a very simple answer to your question....Why should you pay....the answer is you shouldn't you should use yoru resources on games you do enjoy.

 

Which is my point, really, and I think it's the OP's point as well.

 

The game is marketed as an MMO yet doesn't seem to foster or encourage social behaviors, and--true or not--it's one of the most frequent negative critiques of the game.

 

I don't see how an MMO playing as a single-player game (I don't have an opinion on whether or not that's true) could be a good thing.

[Dezzi]

Skyrim isn't a MMO as is, therefor, completely irrelevant.

 

You're aware that this is a discussion on the perception that TOR plays like a single-player RPG. Right?

 

Like....obviously.

 

Like... do I need to teach you what a rhetorical question is?

 

Objection, that's a biased opinion based on another biased opinion which is based on hearsay.

 

The perception is that the game is empty, and whether or not that's true, if players feel like the game is empty (or plays like a single-player game for that matter) then there's a disconnection happening somewhere. The logical thing to do would be to address the problem (if there is one) or address the perception of the problem (which they've yet to do).

 

You are correct, you don't, but SWTOR isn't a single player game.

 

I refer back to the topic currently being discussed. Like... obviously.

Edited April 4, 2012 by Dezzi

[Darth_Moonshadow]

We need one world. The idea of a "server" or "realm" is over. It's time to grow.

 

Yes, because I totally want to be in the same world as the PvP nut jobs and the PvE Hardcore raid fanatic.

 

I'm a roleplayer. I NEED my own realm where I can meet like minded players and we can do our thing. Because apparently, PvE guy will get all mad that the furthest thing from my mind is how much Deeps and aggro I make in twenty minutes and PvP guy won't stop spamming duel invites and busting out the caps lock to yell at me when I decline. And PvE guy and PvP guy will tell you that they don't want to play with me because I "talk funny" and "walk everywhere and hold up the group".

 

We need separate realms. Put us all in one area, we'll go full on cuttlefish against each other.

[DevonDs]

Which is my point, really, and I think it's the OP's point as well.

 

The game is marketed as an MMO yet doesn't seem to foster or encourage social behaviors, and--true or not--it's one of the most frequent negative critiques of the game.

 

I don't see how an MMO playing as a single-player game (I don't have an opinion on whether or not that's true) could be a good thing.

 

I feel your statement is overly generalized, and you seem to make no allowance for the subjective nature of your opinion....

 

You think/feel and others agree with you that this game is not an mmo....

 

I think/feel that this is a great mmo....I am teaming more than I have in any other mmo.

 

I think the question you are having problems with along with many others who don't enjoy this......the question is ....how can people not subscribe to my subjective view of this game"

 

I think the real problem is the difficulty you have in accepting that for some people this is a great game and a great mmo....

 

Your opinion is certainly valid as an opinion....however it is an opinion, a subjective view...

 

You don't think this game is an mmo is a very valid statement.....

This is not an mmo....is an opinion.....and one that I and many others disagreevwith...

[Dezzi]

I feel your statement is overly generalized, and you seem to make no allowance for the subjective nature of your opinion....

 

You think/feel and others agree with you that this game is not an mmo....

 

I think/feel that this is a great mmo....I am teaming more than I have in any other mmo.

 

I think the question you are having problems with along with many others who don't enjoy this......the question is ....how can people not subscribe to my subjective view of this game"

 

I think the real problem is the difficulty you have in accepting that for some people this is a great game and a great mmo....

 

Your opinion is certainly valid as an opinion....however it is an opinion, a subjective view...

 

You don't think this game is an mmo is a very valid statement.....

This is not an mmo....is an opinion.....and one that I and many others disagreevwith...

 

I was very careful to point out that I have no--zero--opinion on whether or not this game is an MMO. You can assume my state of mind all you want, but that would be your opinion--a word you like to toss around in an attempt to disparage what people say who disagree with you, but at the same time prop up what you yourself have to say.

 

I really don't care to label it as an MMO or a single-player RPG. I'm simply trying to understand what recourse players have who feel like it's missing the MMO aspect. Besides leaving for another game.

 

The idea is to keep people here. Satisfied with the game or not, if they're subscribed, they're funding development we all get to enjoy.

 

And to finalize my thoughts, I think it should be mentioned that when someone gives you an opinion, they shouldn't have to announce that it's an opinion. Say things with conviction, and people with either agree or disagree.

 

EDIT - So what's your point? That because something's an opinion, it's meaningless? I'm not sure you wanna go down that road, Mr. Opinions.

Edited April 4, 2012 by Dezzi

[ferroz]

Which is my point, really, and I think it's the OP's point as well.

 

The game is marketed as an MMO yet doesn't seem to foster or encourage social behaviors, and--true or not--it's one of the most frequent negative critiques of the game.

 

I don't see how an MMO playing as a single-player game (I don't have an opinion on whether or not that's true) could be a good thing.

I feel your statement is overly generalized, and you seem to make no allowance for the subjective nature of your opinion....

Seems pretty clear at least in the post you quoted here. He says that the game doesn't seem to foster or encourage social behaviors, and then qualifies that statement with the words "true or not--" remarking that this may be entirely due to perception rather than reality...

 

the next bit is objectively factual: it's a common complaint (whether it's a valid one or not)

 

he specifically says that he doesn't have an opinion on whether the mmo plays as a single player game. And he's not even including very much subjective opinion.

 

So there's nothing in the text that you quoted that is over generalized, and he's making plenty of allowance for subjective opinion.

 

You think/feel and others agree with you that this game is not an mmo....

How do you get that from "I don't have an opinion on whether or not that's true" ... I mean... really? Did you actually read the post you quoted?

 

I think/feel that this is a great mmo....I am teaming more than I have in any other mmo.

I feel kind of sad for you if that's actually true, because that means you've missed out on teaming up in games where it actually makes some sort of meaningful difference in the play experience.

 

The rest of your post doesn't make any sense... did you quote the wrong post?

Edited April 4, 2012 by ferroz

[DevonDs]

I was very careful to point out that I have no--zero--opinion on whether or not this game is an MMO. You can assume my state of mind all you want, but that would be your opinion--a word you like to toss around in an attempt to disparage what people say who disagree with you, but at the same time prop up what you yourself have to say.

 

I really don't care to label it as an MMO or a single-player RPG. I'm simply trying to understand what recourse players have who feel like it's missing the MMO aspect. Besides leaving for another game.

 

The idea is to keep people here. Satisfied with the game or not, if they're subscribed, they're funding development we all get to enjoy.

 

And to finalize my thoughts, I think it should be mentioned that when someone gives you an opinion, they shouldn't have to announce that it's an opinion. Say things with conviction, and people with either agree

 

EDIT - So what's your point? That because something's an opinion, it's meaningless? I'm not sure you wanna go down that road, Mr. Opinions.

 

Not at all, opinions are important and are a primary reason for people's purchasing choices. And perhaps I have unfairly responded to my experience of your subjective opinions because of the many "this game is epic fail" statements I have read over the past two months.

 

The reason that the question of subjective vs,

. Objective was so important was because of the nature of the question asked ....why should I pay plus a subjective statement about the game....

[Darth_Moonshadow]

I feel your statement is overly generalized, and you seem to make no allowance for the subjective nature of your opinion....

 

You think/feel and others agree with you that this game is not an mmo....

 

I think/feel that this is a great mmo....I am teaming more than I have in any other mmo.

 

I think the question you are having problems with along with many others who don't enjoy this......the question is ....how can people not subscribe to my subjective view of this game"

 

I think the real problem is the difficulty you have in accepting that for some people this is a great game and a great mmo....

 

Your opinion is certainly valid as an opinion....however it is an opinion, a subjective view...

 

You don't think this game is an mmo is a very valid statement.....

This is not an mmo....is an opinion.....and one that I and many others disagreevwith...

 

Anyone else see his avatar and read this in Sean Connery's voice?

[Dezzi]

Anyone else see his avatar and read this in Sean Connery's voice?

 

You ruined it! lol

 

Now I can't read it any other way!

[ferroz]

Yes, because I totally want to be in the same world as the PvP nut jobs and the PvE Hardcore raid fanatic.

 

I'm a roleplayer. I NEED my own realm where I can meet like minded players and we can do our thing. Because apparently, PvE guy will get all mad that the furthest thing from my mind is how much Deeps and aggro I make in twenty minutes and PvP guy won't stop spamming duel invites and busting out the caps lock to yell at me when I decline. And PvE guy and PvP guy will tell you that they don't want to play with me because I "talk funny" and "walk everywhere and hold up the group".

 

We need separate realms. Put us all in one area, we'll go full on cuttlefish against each other.

So, we need 4 realms.

• pve
  
• pvp
  
• rp
  
• pvprp
  

 

Anyone else see his avatar and read this in Sean Connery's voice?

No, I read it in a grumpy old man voice (adding in "get off my lawn" at the end) Edited April 4, 2012 by ferroz

[trueanimus]

think about those of us who cant pvp or do more than EV (because kraggas palace is a lag fest) because of the FPS issues due to bad coding and particle effects problems..

 

right now im sitting on 5 level 50s and a 49 and absolutely nothing to do with them... unsub incoming if 1.2 doesn't fix the fps issues.

[DevonDs]

Seems pretty clear at least in the post you quoted here. He says that the game doesn't seem to foster or encourage social behaviors, and then qualifies that statement with the words "true or not--" remarking that this may be entirely due to perception rather than reality...

 

he specifically says that he doesn't have an opinion on whether the mmo plays as a single player game.

 

So there's nothing in the text that you quoted that is over generalized, and he's making plenty of allowance for subjective opinion.

 

How do you get that from "I don't have an opinion on whether or not that's true" ... I mean... really? Did you actually read the post you quoted?

 

I feel kind of sad for you if that's actually true, because that means you've missed out on teaming up in games where it actually makes some sort of meaningful difference in the play experien

 

 

 

You are right, my response was inappropriate. I acknowledge my error and apologize. I let my frustration at my experience of other posts through the months get to me. The posts I was referring to were better written than my responses and my response was inappropriate in relation to the posts I was referencing.

[Darth_Moonshadow]

So, we need 4 realms.

• pve
  
• pvp
  
• rp
  
• pvprp
  

 

No, I read it in a grumpy old man voice (adding in "get off my lawn" at the end)

 

Indeed. But then it's not "one world" and therefore doesn't count.

 

 

And we'd need a fifth one for ERPer's.

 

But that server has a strict "You must be 21 to enter" and requires a photo ID and social before you can roll on there.

Edited April 4, 2012 by Darth_Moonshadow

[Processj]

My thread was closed even though it was very different from this one, and could have lead to great feedback for bioware. That being said, here is my post:

 

This game is great single player/story progression all the way to 50. And I am sure Bioware will improve the endgame content.

 

That being said I renewed my WoW sub, still sub'ed to swtor, and tanked for my WoW guild tonight after a month gone. Holy crap, wow does, in every aspect, blow this game out of the water as far as raids, UI, and community at max level. I feel like I'm playing a real mmo again with wow.

 

But this IS a great game, and I'm sticking around to see the mmo wars.

 

I do like my guild in wow as it is a tight nit community.

 

 

My question is to anyone playing both games, how do you feel about to the end game mechanics compared to the competition?

Edited April 4, 2012 by Processj

[Shingara]

Beyond what some people feel this game is something alot of other mmos are not, and that is anything you wish it tobe. It allows for single player all the way to 50 bar the heroics which are neither required nor enforced within a storyline unlike some other games.

 

On the flip side this game is also one of the best multiplayer games going, if you group up with a varied group of different class's and eleminate the use of companions whilst playing with friends then the storys take a new angle, you dont chose what to answer, rng does which can lead to different relations then what you would previously done yourself.

 

This can mean you are darkside but someone in your group is lightside and takes the story on a twist you wouldnt have followed and vica versa. Yes the choices may not hold solid to altering the game but todo this would take a server and engine containing the power of the most powerful computer in the world, a human brain. as such no computer has been developed electronically so we are stuck within the limits of the technology today.

 

And to add to this the world boss's and champions scatered in every planet that add a new twist to what is classed in other mmos as endgame raid boss's to every level bracket going bar lvl 1-16.

 

As for endgame, swtor is one of the best, they may not have it dialed in yet but its getting there and you have to be blind not to see the possibilitys, we have a good amount of operations and a new one coming in, we have great pvp with a new map/style coming in and to add ranked in with that, we have plenty of heroics as all flashpoints within the game can be done on heroic.

 

The rewards may not be dapper but if you only do endgame for rewards and not challange then you will just have to wait till they sort out the gear for difficulty least not forgeting the change to reverse engineering and modification.

 

And lets also not forget space, probably the best money earner in the game between the cash for doing them and the exchange from the space tokens translating into boe purple items that can be used or sold or even reverse engineered.

Edited April 4, 2012 by Shingara

[Coiffio]

I group all the time, for any missions, solo and heroic missions, flashpoints etc, sometimes with random folks sometimes with friends

 

If you are playing this as a solo game that is your choice, no one else’s, and certainly no fault of the game itself.

 

perhaps, though it is the game's fault for presenting content no one wants to do hardly on their way to 50. Make the group content a little more relevant. Whether you're alone or with 3 other people, stale content, is stale content.

[Shingara]

perhaps, though it is the game's fault for presenting content no one wants to do hardly on their way to 50. Make the group content a little more relevant. Whether you're alone or with 3 other people, stale content, is stale content.

 

Dont confuse people not wanting todo it and people rushing to 50 because they think thats where the game starts.

[ConradLionhart]

It feels like a single player game because you choose to make it a single player game. You don't want to group up for missions. You want to play by yourself.

 

The single player game can easily be a co-op game with 3 other people.

 

I grouped up with a friend to do missions at the start. So much effort has been done to make story work in an MMO:

1. All grouped people appear in the cutscenes of the same mission. It was interesting to hear other people's responses when they won the roll. It didn't feel like 2 people doing 2 copies of the same mission. It felt like 2 people are part of the same mission.

 

But what do people do? Spacebar, spacebar, spacebar. Spacebar is your friend. Spacebar and more spacebar.

 

They make every effort to immerse you, but you choose to skip them. Then you come to the forums and wonder why it feels like a single-player game.

 

2. I could be part of my friend's class story, help him and enter as a spectator. So eventhough I had no say in his class story, I was like his friend that is helping him. I get to watch other class stories without rolling that class.

 

3. Tangible benefits for grouping up, like social points for conversation options, more xp and loot, and the faster speed in which you finish missions due to sharing mission kills and extra firepower.

 

Don't blame the game for feeling like a single-player. It can be a co-op game. A lot of effort has been done to make story work and I commend Bioware for it.

Blame that other game, World of Warcraft, that has brainwashed and scarred you so bad, that you cannot enjoy any other thing other than WoW.

[NotDonnaReed]

Ok, first off, I'm enjoying the game so far. I'm only level 33 and think that this may be part of why I feel a lack of MMO vibe. I'm in a guild so that's not really an issue. I'm one of the few day players in the guild though but the guild is made up of folks that I have played with since 2004. But so far, to me, the game feels more single player RP than MMO. Will maxing to 50 change that?

 

If you're part of a guild, yes. My guild is in the same boat. Most of the members have 50s, so we run dailies, hard modes, and operations together almost every day, whereas the under 50s in our guild are frequently left to their own devices.

 

The problem is that most people tend to be very selfish with their in-game time. For example I've seen several instances when non-50s of a similar level were on different planets asking for help yet refusing to help each other. Everybody wants to work on their own thing, whatever that is, instead of abandoning their goal to help someone else.

 

The other problem is that most servers have too few people to support PUGs. Unless you reroll on a high population server, you'll almost always be one of three or four people on a planet.

 

But like I said, if you can stick it out til 50, you'll have plenty of group opportunities.

[Kalfear]

1st of all thank you for using the term defender instead of a derogatory slur.

 

To answer your question, directed at me since I count myself in the defender population...

 

It's simple...it is ok for you to feel that what you are playing is a single player game...that is your feeling so I agree that youmight feel this is a single player game.

 

The second part of the question inspires a similar and logical response. you are paying a subscription because you chose to pay for a subscription to SWTOR..... A better question may be

 

why are you paying for a subscription if the game doesn't meet your needs and your definition of an mom and I would add unsubscribing is also an option when a game doesn't meet your needs.

 

To recap....feel what you want to feel, subscribe to what you want to subscribe to.

 

Devon, since you have a vocabulary and can make a point beyond a completely false statement with no back up or valification Ill answer your question.

 

1) I was one of the first day sign ups to this forums so the claim that 08s defend and 2012ers hate is false. Many many many many ..... o8s have just moved on having their anticipation and desires completely and ytterly aquashed by what was released.

 

I refuse to do that because if you move on silently and let the fanbois (you might not be one but you can see ones the term does apply to in this very thread with their 1 sentance replies that just argue rather then debate or discuss) own the forum, then the developers never learn, never improve, follow the same failed path for ever.

 

So for me, I make sure I post every day and applaude the good and point out the bad in the hopes that at least one single EA employee can see the difference between educated and experienced feedback vrs rah rah rah "do I get free stuff now" brown nosing.

 

*I know you didnt mention the sign up dates but someone else did and no not all 08ers love this game. Frankly most active posting 08ers before release, have already left game and moved on and thats why they not posting now.*

 

2) I dont hate TOR. I have said till im blue in the face that this game is quite satisfying as a Single Player Game. I have wanted a expansive Single player RPG for decades and decades and decades now so this scratchs a itch.

 

What annoys me is if Im paying the monthly fee to play it as a single player game, then I want access to ALL CONTENT as a single player game.

 

Conversely, if it truely is to be a MMORPG, then I want the missing MMORPG elements added to the game NOW. Not in the first expansion as we hear might happen for Paazaak and Swoop Racing.

 

To be honest, this game releaseing (marketted as KotOR 4-12 MMO as it was) with out interactive Paazaak and competitive (timed not head to head) swoop racing was a BIG middle finger to me by EA to be honest. The very first day this forum opened, there was threads talking about goingto cantinas to play paazaak with others. That was in 2008. You think they couldnt see that and go "hmmm, maybe Paazaak is a big deal and a component of this franchise and we should develope it over the next 3+ years for launch".

 

So ill pay my monthly fee (well I signed up for 6 months so ive paid already), but ill most likely reup month to month after my 6 month sub up.

 

I just want the full game either way

 

Either put in the missing MMO elements and let me enjoy a truely interactive /community driven MMO with a lively chat not forcing you to join guilds and cow toe to egomaniacs.

 

or

 

Give me my full on Single player RPG.

 

TL:DR

 

The game barely meets my Single player needs but a portion of the game is closed off to me as a single player RPG. I just want the game to decide if its a MMO or a SPRPG and go 100% in that direction. Ill be happy with either to be honest. But right now its not completely single player but it also lacks the MMO elemments to make it a true MMO.

 

Hope thats a good enough responce

 

Right now its straddleing the fence and not fully servicing any one (other then the fanbois who love the game so much they spend 8 hours a day on the forums it seems).

[thegimble]

My thread was closed even though it was very different from this one, and could have lead to great feedback for bioware. That being said, here is my post:

 

This game is great single player/story progression all the way to 50. And I am sure Bioware will improve the endgame content.

 

That being said I renewed my WoW sub, still sub'ed to swtor, and tanked for my WoW guild tonight after a month gone. Holy crap, wow does, in every aspect, blow this game out of the water as far as raids, UI, and community at max level. I feel like I'm playing a real mmo again with wow.

 

But this IS a great game, and I'm sticking around to see the mmo wars.

 

I do like my guild in wow as it is a tight nit community.

 

 

My question is to anyone playing both games, how do you feel about to the end game mechanics compared to the competition?

 

Its not only the grouping up or raiding that makes this game feel like a single player its that you do not see anyone around for a long time. I am on Hidden Beks EU one of the higher populated server and some places its fairly bad.

 

As you say WOW does blow this away as an MMO problem is as a single player this would have been a very good game but there is no real social interaction within the game which is real sad. Its time for server merges if they do not keep the subscribers they have now happy will cost them i the end.

 

This is a very simple problem to sort out merge servers up until they are on high and close servers down until they are actually needed if subs increase etc.

Edited April 4, 2012 by thegimble