Mace and Yoda Vs Palpatine=game over

[kcchieffan]

i reject this "read the books" retconning of failed film satisfaction nonsense.

 

If the movie looked stupid then it was stupid. If you can't believe how dumb the jedi were then you believe it and no book is going to change that. Official novelizations change nothing. The movie was stupid, i can't believe the jedi were sacred guardians of democracy when they were that dumb and btw apparently palatine's secret power is to lower jedi iq, especially when they attempt to confront him.

 

Explaining things to me in a "this is actually how it is though" manner doesn't make a difference to me. You can't make a movie then have to explain to everyone afterwards how its supposed to be received.

 

It never holds together. Mace windu has the biggest secret in republic history and what does he do? Apparently involve only the 2 most incompetent duelists in the order and not bother to tell anyone else... Hmm. Why not just like... Bring a news reporter with you? How about block off the entire building and bring in a whole armada of jedi?

 

Its one of those things that was incompetence to justify how palatine could get away with all this.

 

Its a bad scene, its a poorly written movie, the whole thing makes no sense and only the fanbois are going to accept it cause they just accept everything. People who actually have their heads in proper writing and story telling and film making just look at it and say "well that was stupid."

 

^^^^^^

thank you!!!!!!!

[BrandonSM]

I reject this "read the books" retconning of failed film satisfaction nonsense.

 

If the movie looked stupid then it was stupid. If you can't believe how dumb the Jedi were then you believe it and no book is going to change that. Official novelizations change nothing. The movie was stupid, I can't believe the Jedi were sacred guardians of democracy when they were that dumb and BTW apparently Palatine's secret power is to lower Jedi IQ, especially when they attempt to confront him.

 

Explaining things to me in a "This is actually how it is though" manner doesn't make a difference to me. You can't make a movie then have to explain to everyone afterwards how its supposed to be received.

 

It never holds together. Mace Windu has the biggest secret in Republic history and what does he do? Apparently involve only the 2 most incompetent duelists in the order and not bother to tell anyone else... hmm. Why not just like... bring a news reporter with you? How about block off the entire building and bring in a whole armada of Jedi?

 

Its one of those things that was incompetence to justify how Palatine could get away with all this.

 

Its a bad scene, its a poorly written movie, the whole thing makes no sense and only the fanbois are going to accept it cause they just accept everything. People who actually have their heads in proper writing and story telling and film making just look at it and say "Well that was stupid."

 

First: Books came before the movies.

 

Second: Those were 2 of the best duelists in the Jedi Order along with Mace arguably the best Jedi Duelist at that time.

 

 

Third: Mace says why in the movie and it says why in the book. Approaching the public First would be pointless and would be a failure. Palps controlled the Senate and the Courts. He had Emergency Powers. I'm not sure if you know what that means, but it means he can call out an order LIKE Order 66. When he got Emergency Powers the Jedi knew approaching the Senate would be pointless.

[Invictos]

First: Books came before the movies.

 

The timing is irrelevant. The novelizations are based on the movies. Lucas gives Stover the script, and Stover makes a book out of it -- not the other way around. Stover did a great job, and I'd personally recommend his book to any Star Wars fan who wants to appreciate Revenge of the Sith more than the movie will allow, but the fact remains that the movie takes precedence, both causally and in the official canon.

 

Second: Those were 2 of the best duelists in the Jedi Order along with Mace arguably the best Jedi Duelist at that time.

 

As p-funk admirably pointed out, the movie didn't portray them as good duelists. The rule of good storytelling is, "Show, don't tell." Behind-the-scenes or supplementary-material exposition is great, but it cannot change what the movie-going audience sees in that critical first impression: Mace's companions were incompetent.

[BrandonSM]

The timing is irrelevant. The novelizations are based on the movies. Lucas gives Stover the script, and Stover makes a book out of it -- not the other way around. Stover did a great job, and I'd personally recommend his book to any Star Wars fan who wants to appreciate Revenge of the Sith more than the movie will allow, but the fact remains that the movie takes precedence, both causally and in the official canon.

 

 

 

As p-funk admirably pointed out, the movie didn't portray them as good duelists. The rule of good storytelling is, "Show, don't tell." Behind-the-scenes or supplementary-material exposition is great, but it cannot change what the movie-going audience sees in that critical first impression: Mace's companions were incompetent.

 

Lucas wanted to show how Palpatine was the better duelist of the 2 and Mace was even better. If you couldn't get how he moved in to fast for Saesee and Kit Fisto to keep up with, then IDK what to say.

 

 

Also the novelizations are G-canon...

[Invictos]

Lucas wanted to show how Palpatine was the better duelist of the 2 and Mace was even better. If you couldn't get how he moved in to fast for Saesee and Kit Fisto to keep up with, then IDK what to say.

 

 

Also the novelizations are G-canon...

 

1. Yes, Lucas wanted to show that Palps is very strong/fast/powerful. What he ended up showing, however, is that the average 30-year-old Star Wars fan has better reaction time than Mace's friends do. As another poster theorized, the scene might have looked more impressive in slow-mo.

 

2. If the novelization and the movie disagree on any minor point, then which takes precedence in canon?

[Wolfninjajedi]

1. Yes, Lucas wanted to show that Palps is very strong/fast/powerful. What he ended up showing, however, is that the average 30-year-old Star Wars fan has better reaction time than Mace's friends do. As another poster theorized, the scene might have looked more impressive in slow-mo.

 

2. If the novelization and the movie disagree on any minor point, then which takes precedence in canon?

 

The novels would because not only are they the same as the movies, but they give more detail and better understanding of the scenes that a movie cannot show.

Edited April 5, 2012 by Wolfninjajedi

[Invictos]

The novels would because not only are they the same as the movies, but they give more detail and better understanding of the scenes that a movie cannot show.

 

Heh, believe that if you like. The fact that the novelizations have such prized position in canon -- as opposed to all the other novels -- is that they're linked with the movies, and so Lucas pays more attention to them. The movies are the alpha and omega of Star Wars lore, no matter what anyone says.

 

At the end of the day, official word is secondary to audience perception. You can try to tell people after the fact what they should have seen, but that's not the way good story telling works.

 

Don't get me wrong; I wish Stover had helped to write the movie script. It would have been a better movie. Better yet, I wish Stover had a hand in writing the over-arching story of the prequel trilogy, which was chock-full of wasted screen time. The scene we're discussing in this thread could have benefited from a little more (screen) time and attention.

[kcchieffan]

The novels would because not only are they the same as the movies, but they give more detail and better understanding of the scenes that a movie cannot show.

 

The books may be cannon but shouldn't matter. No one should HAVE to go read the book to know what lucas was really trying to relay.

 

And yes the books may come out first but this isn't lord of the rings where it was book first. It was a Script for a movie first then lucas let a book adaptation happen. So just because the books come out before the movie should have no bering on how cannon they are. An individual should be able to watch the movies and know exactly whats going on without having to be like man i should read the books so i can know what happened

Edited April 5, 2012 by kcchieffan

[Wolfninjajedi]

The books may be cannon but shouldn't matter. No one should HAVE to go read the book to know what lucas was really trying to relay.

 

And yes the books may come out first but this isn't lord of the rings where it was book first. It was a Script for a movie first then lucas let a book adaptation happen. So just because the books come out before the movie should have no bering on how cannon they are. An individual should be able to watch the movies and know exactly whats going on without having to be like man i should read the books so i can know what happened

 

Who says you need to read the books? You don't wanna read em fine, but so you know...movies can't do everything and show exactly what its trying to show. Books however can, because they are not limited in time, not limited with a budget, not limited in what is able to happen in said book. The only thing a book is limited in, is imagination.

Edited April 5, 2012 by Wolfninjajedi

[ScarletBlaze]

The books may be cannon but shouldn't matter. No one should HAVE to go read the book to know what lucas was really trying to relay.

 

And yes the books may come out first but this isn't lord of the rings where it was book first. It was a Script for a movie first then lucas let a book adaptation happen. So just because the books come out before the movie should have no bering on how cannon they are. An individual should be able to watch the movies and know exactly whats going on without having to be like man i should read the books so i can know what happened

 

A book can cover more than a movie can. Just like the books from Harry Potter there are things in it that wasn't in the movies.

[kcchieffan]

A book can cover more than a movie can. Just like the books from Harry Potter there are things in it that wasn't in the movies.

 

But again harry potter was a book first and a movie was adapted from it. Star Wars was a movie first and a book was adapted from the script. And something as easy as not making some of the best duelist the jedi had to offer not look like idiots could of been done very easily. And the budget for George Lucas should of been a non issue considering he owns the studio that sets the budget for his films.

[Wolfninjajedi]

But again harry potter was a book first and a movie was adapted from it. Star Wars was a movie first and a book was adapted from the script. And something as easy as not making some of the best duelist the jedi had to offer not look like idiots could of been done very easily. And the budget for George Lucas should of been a non issue considering he owns the studio that sets the budget for his films.

 

How do you know the books weren't written before the movies were shot? Or at least in the process of being written?

Edited April 5, 2012 by Wolfninjajedi

[kcchieffan]

How do you know the books weren't written before the movies were shot? Or at least in the process of being written?

 

Because George Lucas wrote the script. He's not going to let an author write the book for his movie before he knows where his movie is going, therefore the script that the books are based on came first.

 

Im not saying the books didn't come out before the movie because they did, but the books were based on the script GL wrote, which the script is the movie so if we get really technical the movie does come first.

Edited April 5, 2012 by kcchieffan

[Wolfninjajedi]

Because George Lucas wrote the script. He's not going to let an author write the book for his movie before he knows where his movie is going, therefore the script that the books are based on came first.

 

But if he wrote the script, he should know where his movie is going. The final script is the final script, he could have hired an author to write a novel based on the script while production of the movie is going. Then, the novelization is released a month(or a few days/weeks) before the movie is released. It doesn't take days or weeks to write a novel, it could take months. So the author uses imagination, to see how the scene would play out based on the scene it shows within said script.

 

Which if you think on it, it makes sense seeing as details are added and some details are a little different between the novels and movies.

Edited April 5, 2012 by Wolfninjajedi

[Captain_Zone]

How Obi-Wan/Vader Round 2 should have happened:

 

Vader: Sup, nub?

 

Obi-Wan: Nah, you is still the nublet.

 

Vader: Noway! I is leet now!

 

Obi-Wan: Only a leet nublet, nublet.

 

Vader: Man, **** you! *swings and misses*

 

Obi-Wan: See, I knew you was still a foo. Besides, even if you win, You is still gonna be a nub.

[Invictos]

A book can cover more than a movie can. Just like the books from Harry Potter there are things in it that wasn't in the movies.

 

Yes, of course. They're different media. In books, editing is crucial. In movies, editing is everything. You have to be very picky about what you choose to include, and how you go about conveying ideas or impressions. (Which is why the pacing of the prequels has been, and will remain, my biggest beef with the whole franchise. The whole first film is arguably superfluous.)

 

That said, the book in this case is frankly tangential to the discussion. The book exists; it's a good book for what it is, but ultimately the movie must be able to stand on its own merits. If you truly believe that the movie's depiction of the scene in question was well done, then that's one thing. De gustibus non est disputandum, and all that jazz.

 

But if you have to rely on explanations from the book (or from some other external source) to justify the movie scene, then the movie scene failed. Full stop. Do not pass Go; do not collect $200. It's not debatable.

 

So FWIW, I'm of two minds about this line of discussion. On the one hand, it is worthwhile to point Star Wars fans in Mathew Stover's direction. The novelization can enhance your enjoyment of the film. On the other hand, Stover's artful manipulations of Lucas' script don't make the script itself any better. Movie-goers were neither required nor expected to read the book. Lucas knew full well, just as any of us would have, that only a tiny fraction of the movie audience would even realize the book existed.

 

George Lucas is a movie maker. Star Wars is a movie franchise.

Edited April 5, 2012 by Invictos

[kcchieffan]

But if he wrote the script, he should know where his movie is going. The final script is the final script, he could have hired an author to write a novel based on the script while production of the movie is going. Then, the novelization is released a month(or a few days/weeks) before the movie is released. It doesn't take days or weeks to write a novel, it could take months. So the author uses imagination, to see how the scene would play out based on the scene it shows within said script.

 

Which if you think on it, it makes sense seeing as details are added and some details are a little different between the novels and movies.

 

Which is all fine and dandy, but i'll reiterate what i was saying in the first place that one should not have to read a book to understand what was going on with that scene. Now if the entire star wars saga was originally a book seris that was adapted into movies you can use the argument that so and so is what the scene was suppose to show, but since this was a movie series first and the books are just for people who like to read and not required Mr. Lucas could have made this scene better. Instead everyone but Mace looks pathetic and even the all powerful palpatine looked pretty pathetic.

[ScarletBlaze]

Yes, of course. They're different media. In books, editing is crucial. In movies, editing is everything. You have to be very picky about what you choose to include, and how you go about conveying ideas or impressions. (Which is why the pacing of the prequels has been, and will remain, my biggest beef with the whole franchise. The whole first film is arguably superfluous.)

 

That said, the book in this case is frankly tangential to the discussion. The book exists; it's a good book for what it is, but ultimately the movie must be able to stand on its own merits. If you truly believe that the movie's depiction of the scene in question was well done, then that's one thing. De gustibus non est disputandum, and all that jazz.

 

But if you have to rely on explanations from the book (or from some other external source) to justify the movie scene, then the movie scene failed. Full stop. Do not pass Go; do not collect $200. It's not debatable.

 

So FWIW, I'm of two minds about this line of discussion. On the one hand, it is worthwhile to point Star Wars fans in Mathew Stover's direction. The novelization can enhance your enjoyment of the film. On the other hand, Stover's artful manipulations of Lucas' script don't make the script itself any better. Movie-goers were neither required nor expected to read the book. Lucas knew full well, just as any of us would have, that only a tiny fraction of the movie audience would even realize the book existed.

 

George Lucas is a movie maker. Star Wars is a movie franchise.

 

Not for me I read the book prior to seeing the movie which is something I tend to do if there is a book prior to the movie. I like to know what scenes may or may not be in the movie that are in the book.

 

And actually since this was a continuation of the movies he started with the New Hope there would more people knowing a book would be in existence with the Revenge of the Sith as most by that time knew of the books and a lot were reading books written by various authors regarding a lot of different topics.

 

If you would have said only a tiny fraction knew of the original New Hope book than yes I would have agreed but considering there were a ton of books in existence at the time of the Revenge of the Sith so more than a tiny fraction would have known of the book.

Edited April 5, 2012 by ScarletBlaze

[kcchieffan]

Yes, of course. They're different media. In books, editing is crucial. In movies, editing is everything. You have to be very picky about what you choose to include, and how you go about conveying ideas or impressions. (Which is why the pacing of the prequels has been, and will remain, my biggest beef with the whole franchise. The whole first film is arguably superfluous.)

 

That said, the book in this case is frankly tangential to the discussion. The book exists; it's a good book for what it is, but ultimately the movie must be able to stand on its own merits. If you truly believe that the movie's depiction of the scene in question was well done, then that's one thing. De gustibus non est disputandum, and all that jazz.

 

But if you have to rely on explanations from the book (or from some other external source) to justify the movie scene, then the movie scene failed. Full stop. Do not pass Go; do not collect $200. It's not debatable.

 

So FWIW, I'm of two minds about this line of discussion. On the one hand, it is worthwhile to point Star Wars fans in Mathew Stover's direction. The novelization can enhance your enjoyment of the film. On the other hand, Stover's artful manipulations of Lucas' script don't make the script itself any better. Movie-goers were neither required nor expected to read the book. Lucas knew full well, just as any of us would have, that only a tiny fraction of the movie audience would even realize the book existed.

 

George Lucas is a movie maker. Star Wars is a movie franchise.

 

Completley agree books are great but for a MOVIE SERIES you shouldn't have to rely on books to understand what a scene in the movie was trying to convey

[Captain_Zone]

Completley agree books are great but for a MOVIE SERIES you shouldn't have to rely on books to understand what a scene in the movie was trying to convey

 

I say give him a year or two and he'll re-release Episodes II and III with added CGI effects and Palpatine moving like Bruce Lee since that scene was pretty weak in the first incarnation of the movie.

[BucMan]

I say give him a year or two and he'll re-release Episodes II and III with added CGI effects and Palpatine moving like Bruce Lee since that scene was pretty weak in the first incarnation of the movie.

 

Nah, couldn't have a CGI alteration that the fans would want. Bottom line on this scene:

 

As depicted in the movie, the scene does not work. It leaves the audience baffled. Not baffled at the superior Sith. But baffled at the statuesque Jedi. I remember thinking "At least Kit Fisto got in a parry or two....."

Edited April 5, 2012 by BucMan

[Invictos]

I say give him a year or two and he'll re-release Episodes II and III with added CGI effects and Palpatine moving like Bruce Lee since that scene was pretty weak in the first incarnation of the movie.

 

And the younglings will be recast as the aggressors. Mark my words: a few years from now, we'll be printing "Anakin swung first" T-shirts.

[P-Funk]

Star Wars is movies. Period. Everything else is just sides and condiments. There were no books without a movie script. There is no story without Lucas making a movie. At the end of the day, the book didn't dictate the movie, it was the other way around.

 

This is all beside the point really. Every form of media MUST be able to stand on its own. Also, the movie is the penultimate media just because its the one everyone saw. Number of people who saw the movie versus number who read the book is so disproportionately in favour of the movie it makes the whole book argument moot. This isn't a court case. Its not like you can bring up one piece of evidence even if its tiny compared to the rest.

 

Let me put it to you this way. Way back when George Bush was running for office in 2004 there was this guy on the Democrats' side. I forget his name but this was a famous moment. He was vying for the Democratic nomination. At some rally he was yelling and whooping and when people saw it on TV he looked like an idiot. He lost based on that fact alone. Now, the true story is that it was insanely loud in that room, that his demeanor was perfectly normal for the atmosphere, but that the microphone was sound cancelling so all you heard was him screaming in what was apparently a quiet room.

 

Did that truth change anything? Nope. All people remember is what they saw. They saw some crazy Democrat screaming like an idiot. The truth and what people's impression were completely alien to one another.

 

Whats my point? What you see versus what you're told are two separate entities. I saw that movie, its how I along with many other millions, was introduced to the death of Mace Windu and confrontation therein. I saw it, I lolled, I couldn't believe my eyes. Then some fanbois started telling me about a book. I didn't care. I just knew it was silly. I just remember the image of some old man moving slower than sin at a bunch of aloof idiot Jedi.

 

If Sidious is meant to be that fast, then why didn't he look it? It didn't look fast. It looked like they were slow. Period. In every previous battle so much CGI and effects were used to give the impression that Jedi were super fast and nimble. In this one scene it just relies on a bunch of close ups of Palpy's face and a bunch of crumpling pylons.

 

What you see is what you get. If you can't even admit it was a badly filmed scene then you're in desperate denial.

[Captain_Zone]

Star Wars is movies. Period. Everything else is just sides and condiments. There were no books without a movie script. There is no story without Lucas making a movie. At the end of the day, the book didn't dictate the movie, it was the other way around.

 

This is all beside the point really. Every form of media MUST be able to stand on its own. Also, the movie is the penultimate media just because its the one everyone saw. Number of people who saw the movie versus number who read the book is so disproportionately in favour of the movie it makes the whole book argument moot. This isn't a court case. Its not like you can bring up one piece of evidence even if its tiny compared to the rest.

 

Let me put it to you this way. Way back when George Bush was running for office in 2004 there was this guy on the Democrats' side. I forget his name but this was a famous moment. He was vying for the Democratic nomination. At some rally he was yelling and whooping and when people saw it on TV he looked like an idiot. He lost based on that fact alone. Now, the true story is that it was insanely loud in that room, that his demeanor was perfectly normal for the atmosphere, but that the microphone was sound cancelling so all you heard was him screaming in what was apparently a quiet room.

 

Did that truth change anything? Nope. All people remember is what they saw. They saw some crazy Democrat screaming like an idiot. The truth and what people's impression were completely alien to one another.

 

Whats my point? What you see versus what you're told are two separate entities. I saw that movie, its how I along with many other millions, was introduced to the death of Mace Windu and confrontation therein. I saw it, I lolled, I couldn't believe my eyes. Then some fanbois started telling me about a book. I didn't care. I just knew it was silly. I just remember the image of some old man moving slower than sin at a bunch of aloof idiot Jedi.

 

If Sidious is meant to be that fast, then why didn't he look it? It didn't look fast. It looked like they were slow. Period. In every previous battle so much CGI and effects were used to give the impression that Jedi were super fast and nimble. In this one scene it just relies on a bunch of close ups of Palpy's face and a bunch of crumpling pylons.

 

What you see is what you get. If you can't even admit it was a badly filmed scene then you're in desperate denial.

 

Ok, movie fanboi. Try reading sometime. It helps. Also, in an interview with Ian McDiarmid(Palpatine), he stated that he couldn't move as fast as the script called for, but for some reason George didn't CGI enhance it. If you knew anything about the movie novelizations, you would know they are adapted from, and stay faithful to George Lucas's scripts.

 

That said, yes it was a horribly filmed scene and one reason I didn't like the prequel movies.

[Asturias]

What doesn't make sense here is that Mace and Yoda wouldn't go face the master sith lord together. If they both would of gone Sidious would of lost hands down anakain there or not. So to me this is a huge plot hole and another reason the new trilogy is horrible.

 

It is already stated Mace would of lost. Sidious even though he lost the dual to Mace he easly would shatter his defenses with his lightening.