DAOC's glorious time and decline explained

[Xigfrid]

I have noticed that a lot of pvp players in this forum don't know DAOC and as SWTOR is continuously compared to it, perhaps this little post will help them understand what this game was about when it comes to PVP (PVP was called RVR at the time where R stands for Realm).

 

 

At first, DAOC's PVP was released with the simple lure of acquiring 3 Relics, the basic rules for acquiring these were as follow, destroy and acquire all the castles of one faction to lower the defenses of the big reliquary fortress. Basically, you wanted relics to obtain damage bonuses, and 2 factions could merge their efforts to reduce the strength of one dominating faction. But this bonus was not very useful to PVE players and reliquary attacks needed a lot of coordination and players to be successful. This is the reason why there were so few relic attacks and the few of us who remember this time, feel it as totally epic.

 

The next expansion added "Darkness Falls" -DF-, the faction "shared" PVE zone. It was a very nice add, requiring less PVP coordination to gain control. It would bring infinite resources for PVE-crafters, which were required to access to the new best PVP gear, cuts the grind time by two or three times and allows small groups or stealth classes to go through large elite mobs and access to other factions areas after a "big labyrinth pattern". The best groups would also be able to go deeper in DS where there were much harder elite groups and eventually reach the bosses lairs.

The ownership of this area concerned much the "PVE" population, and they would acknowledge and be grateful to a strong "PVP" population. Eventually, with the lack of PVP forces in a certain faction, the "PVE" population would gather into a large raid to gain control of the castles -whoever control the most castles gain access to DF-, but fortunately, a small group could efficiently defend a castle if it was claimed and "upgraded" with stronger NPCs. Only PVP guilds could claim a castle because it costed "Guild Valor" points, so a minimum of active PVP guilds was required in each faction to efficiently defend all the faction castles.

In terms, that made a strong relationship between the PVE and PVP population of a same faction, PVE population was highly concerned with the actual war situation, and it was a cleaver self-balancing system where PVEs would occasionally go PVP until DF was accessible. Where a permanent PVP force (3-4 PVP guilds) was very useful but couldn't do much without the reinforcement of the PVE force for relic attacks.

 

 

Then came TOA, that was the beginning of "the decline of DAOC". TOA was the opening of one same mirrored/instanced continent for each faction, preventing any sort of PVP in these zones. Basically TOA continents were large PVE zones divided into 10 stories called Master Levels. One character would grind his Master Levels from 1 up to 10 to gather 10 new abilities specific to its classes. In addition to the MLs, there was a completely new type of gear called Artifacts, poor in stats but with awesome "Use" or "proc" abilities. They were from easy to difficult to obtain, and needed a LOT of farming to be activated AND leveled through additional farming.

At this time, large guilds would be advantaged and eventually they would end all the grinding to ML10 with full Artifacts in 2-3 months and dominate the empty PVP zones. The majority of the players felt to be turned into PVE-pigs condemned to infinite farming, then grinding, then farming again. When they were doing exclusively PVP, night and day, just before this expansion.

A few months later, New Frontiers expansion came out, as the majority of the players were still grinding their artifacts and MLs, the PVP zones were completely revamped to offer more group vs group opportunities and faster travel to combat zones. Due to the lack of cohesion between the PVP and the PVE populations since TOA: the PVE population could spend all its time in the new faction zones without the need of PVP action and grind all their soul the new content. The PVP population would have large empty fields without the risk of large raids aiming to relics, the PVP experience turned into the notorious and glorious time of "veterans only" groups vs groups fights all night long.

 

 

This is, imo, where all the troubles began because there were no "game mechanics" to make new veterans from fresh players: the new players had to grind endlessly in TOA zones, because they were told that without the MLs and Artifacts, they would be helpless in the challenging PVP zones full of veterans. They were -in some way- educated to love PVE after 4-5 months of hard grinding without the need to ever meet an enemy. End when they finally come to the end of their long PVE trip, they learnt that PVP is a completely different way to play and have to learn everything from scratch against "realm rank 10" veterans.

At this very same time, the famous game editor Blizzard released its first MMO, with the firm promise of an endlessly enjoyable PVE universe. So DAOC lost the PVE part of its population, and finally as the last DAOC veteran left the time-consuming game for real life, DAOC had reach the end of its path.

 

Exactly the same thing happened to WoW 4 months ago, where the hungry PVP veterans were told that SWTOR would be an endless enjoyable PVP experience with the long-awaited Realm vs Realm come back and new exciting rules. And this is also the reason why SWTOR should fear GW2 more than WoW's monk expansion if they don't come up with a real and working PVP plan.

[PurpleMagick]

who cares?

[physiology]

who cares?

 

this,

 

I don't understand the point of this history lesson of a video game on another video game's boards. You essentially said (which I only got from the last paragraph) that GW2 will steal players away from swtor, which we have already heard.

[Xigfrid]

I only wanted to help.

I have noticed that a lot of pvp players in this forum don't know DAOC and as SWTOR is continuously compared to it, perhaps this little post will help them understand what this game was about when it comes to PVP

[Zintair]

I agree with this. But I already think Bioware blew it. First impressions are everything in this game. You have to get it right or you did it wrong and it's too late. No game is able to pick itself off its *** once it falls down.

 

This game is heading in that direction. They dropped the ball hard on PvP and some re-arrangements need to be made.

 

 

Whoever created Ilum had no idea what Open-world PvP was about so I dare say it had nothing to do with Mythic working in the backgrounds.

 

 

Those days are over. MMOs are too big of business now where the corporation runs the show and $$$ control the games direction.

 

 

GW2 seems like the light at the end of the tunnel but then again I've said this about many MMOs including Warhammer and SWTOR

[Zintair]

this,

 

I don't understand the point of this history lesson of a video game on another video game's boards. You essentially said (which I only got from the last paragraph) that GW2 will steal players away from swtor, which we have already heard.

 

Considering the response you are probably apart of the new school MMO community and have no idea what we are talking about.

 

And for that I feel sad for you, because you will never get to see an MMO as it should have been.

 

 

And you look to history and the past so that you don't commit the same mistakes and not let it repeat itself.

 

 

Wouldn't you agree that THAT alone is beyond relevant for this game?

[aarka]

the hungry PVP veterans were told that SWTOR would be an endless enjoyable PVP experience with the long-awaited Realm vs Realm come back and new exciting rules.

 

Yeah, amazing groundbreaking PvP from 3 instanced minigames. No one was promised anything. There was no secret. Thousands of players played through betas. The PvP system was fully exposed months before launch. If hardcore PvPers really came to swtor expecting this, they are retarded.

Edited April 2, 2012 by aarka

[Slurmez]

Yeah, amazing groundbreaking PvP from 3 instanced minigames. No one was promised anything. There was no secret. Thousands of players played through betas. The PvP system was fully exposed months before launch. If hardcore PvPers really came to swtor expecting this, they are retarded.

 

They clearly stipulated 100v100 ORvR in Ilum, didnt quite turn out like that

[EnochThompson]

At least you are not paying a monthly fee with GW2 and its a real pvp game, world vs world vs world sounds really awesome.

 

Unfortunatly this game only has 2 PVE instances which you can do 1 a week, and 3 WZ for content, and borring *** daily quest in belsavis and ilum. Its worst when you have a low pop server so when you are q'ing for 5+ minutes per WZ and get hutball all day.

 

Now with the valor changes whats the point in grinding for pvp??

 

I cant wait for GW2...

[xxIncubixx]

a free game like guild wars 2 doesnt endager anything... most people will play guild wars when they are bored of WoW/SWTOR/War/rift whatever. Its not really an mmo, its more like a fps RPG, u cant even choose ur skills for **** sake, and its so dumbed down its like you press the buttons the game tells u to press for the combos and chain attacks, lame is lame and guild wars is reaching the epitome of stupidity, and all the classes are pretty much the same lol ~~ (also guild wars is full of *******, kids, even more kids, and some people that think that are "hardcore" pvpers, thats what makes me stay away from free games, however WoW has also its considerable ammount of kids). Edited April 2, 2012 by xxIncubixx

[physiology]

Considering the response you are probably apart of the new school MMO community and have no idea what we are talking about.

 

And for that I feel sad for you, because you will never get to see an MMO as it should have been.

 

 

And you look to history and the past so that you don't commit the same mistakes and not let it repeat itself.

 

 

Wouldn't you agree that THAT alone is beyond relevant for this game?

 

I have actually been playing MMOs for quite awhile now, and even if I had not, how is asking what the point of the DAOC's history posted on the swtor forums be any measure of "knowing what I'm talking about"?

 

Was it a good game? Sure, I wasn't really into it but that was more due to my personal tastes at the time. As for history, I doubt many of us are/will be game developers

Edited April 2, 2012 by physiology

[Ravenolf]

Exactly the same thing happened to WoW 4 months ago, where the hungry PVP veterans were told that SWTOR would be an endless enjoyable PVP experience with the long-awaited Realm vs Realm come back and new exciting rules

 

First, great post. I missed the DaoC train and have been curious about it.

 

Second, concerning the quoted part of your post. When did this happen? I remember Bioware going on and on about their story in PVE, and then announced they would have PVP too. Like we have space combat too. It was an added feature, this was never a pvp game, or a 50/50 PVE, PVP game. Bioware never set that expectation. That came from PVP'rs pre launch who gave a list of their expectations and saying Bioware had to meet them or they would fail. They then move forward talking about PVP as if Bioware promised a game like Daoc or Warhammer. That came from the community, not Bioware.

[Zintair]

I have actually been playing MMOs for quite awhile now, and even if I haven't, how is asking what the point of the DAOC's history posted on the swtor forums be any measure of "knowing what I'm talking about"?

 

Was it a good game? Sure, I wasn't really into it at but that was more due to my personal tastes at the time. As for history, I doubt many of us are/will be game developers

 

If you played earlier MMOs you'd know there was a huge shift in the community/games developed/entire mentality.

 

So much changed since those days and definitely for the worse. What he said is completely relevant to the game as it stands today. Understanding this would negate any reason to question why they posted it.

 

The OP obviously feels the decline in the game and recognizes a similar trend from previous games.

 

It's obvious the developers at least should take some notes lol.

[EnochThompson]

You call this an mmo?? This is Neverwinter nights multiplayer...

 

Only 2 epic operative "dungeons" to do every 1 week is lame... 3 WZ which you only see 1 90% of the time is lame... **** I spend most of my time in the imp ship q'ing after completing EV/KP hardmode all week, whats the point in doing nightmare?? Gives the same **** gear...

[Jalez]

The REASON you should care about DAoC and learn from it, if you consider yourself a "PvP Player" is that DAOC is the Gold Standard of PvP in MMORPG'S. It hands down has the best, most competitive, most exciting PvP on the market even 10 years after its release.

 

I wont go as far as calling everyone a noob cuz they didnt play DAoC, but if I have a choice of joining a Rated 8man of former DAoCers or a rated 8 man of former WoW players, Im taking the offer from the DAoCers without thinking twice.

 

And before you tell me to go back to DAoC, I still play it...I cant get my guild to leave DAoC for Star Wars cuz they know the PvP wont be as good.

 

Im here because after 10 years of DAoC I WANT a new game......so when we former DAoCers post in this forum ....we are hoping that someone will see our ideas...because we know what great PvP in an MMORPG is SUPPOSED to look and feel like

[Lhaim]

"SWTOR would be an endless enjoyable PVP experience with the long-awaited Realm vs Realm come back and new exciting rules."

 

Noone ever promised or even hinted at deep rvr in swtor pre-launch.

[TheLakers]

who cares?

 

I do.

 

We all should care since DAOC did PvP right and killed itself with silly, boring, instanced PvE.

Edited April 2, 2012 by TheLakers

[Jalez]

"SWTOR would be an endless enjoyable PVP experience with the long-awaited Realm vs Realm come back and new exciting rules."

 

Noone ever promised or even hinted at deep rvr in swtor pre-launch.

 

Then why even make an MMO?......Just making an online game for PvE cuts their market share by at least 20%.....the WoW pvpers will leave, the DAoCers wont even try the game, and they will have to release new PvE content at a record pace to keep the PVE subscriptions rolling in.

 

Or.....

 

They can focus more on PvP and profit

[Karandor]

Darkness Falls is, to this day, the best way to make people PvP in an MMO ever.

 

 

I have no idea why no one has ever copied the idea.

 

In SWTOR the equivalent would be having a huge planet unlocked with content from lvl 20-50+ with a bunch of progressively harder world raid bosses and an awesome amount of crafting materials available. Also, everything gives double xp on this planet.

 

The planet is available when you control the majority of illum (just saying as an example, current illum mechanics would make this a bit ludicrous) and then switches when the enemy grabs control. You can stay on the planet after you lose control but the enemy will be free to come and kill you.

 

What does this do for an MMORPG? Well it gets people out in PvP because they want the rewards from the crazy super ****** planet. Also since a ton of people will be going to that planet when it opens for them often the faction that controls it has a handicap when it comes to population in PvP.

 

It was a glorious time in DAoC, then ToA hit and ruined the game for me utterly and completely.

Edited April 2, 2012 by Karandor

[Kryssprolls]

I did not play DAOC but many of my guild's best players played DAOC and recall fondly of those times. So, it picked my curiosity.

I am glad someone explained what DAOC's PvP was since it is considered by many the golden standard of what PvP fun should be in an MMO.

 

Now, in this regard, GW2 seem to be very promising.

But, on the other hand, I expect bugs, unbalance, rough edges as any with any other MMO which hit the market.

 

In the mean time, who knows what improvement SWTOR would have gained. Space battles PvP, revamped openworld PvP in illum, dynamic PvP events, half a dozen new huttball maps, several new warzones, arenas, 1vs1 ranked gladiatorial fights, ranked RvsR WZs ?

 

Whatever Bioware have up their sleeves, they will roll new content fast, be it PvP or PvE.

 

The game is only 4 months old: who knows how it will be 6 months down the road.

 

In this regard, whatever DAOC successfully brought to the table remain a possible added feature...

[Falters]

If this game has taught me anything, it is a little bit of hope goes a LOOOONG way.

The biggest thing I liked about PVP during beta of this game was it took some time to die.

Unlike WoW or Rift where people could destroy you in 2s.

 

Then, as we got into the game, I found you get CC'd from 100 to 0, with a horrible UI and no combat log to help. So all that extra time alive really didn't amount to a whole lot.

 

TOR isn't terrible. It just isn't good enough to justify the grind(s).

 

I don't blame Bioware, really. I took a little bit of hope and stretched it far too much and ended up with great expectations over what amounted to very little that was actually promised.

 

Thanks for the DaOC history. I'm sorry I missed that game. But I hope GW2 or Planetside2 will bring back World of Warcraft... not the game, but worlds... of... warcraft... you know, something WoW never really was.

[Cruxe]

TOR isn't terrible. It just isn't good enough to justify the grind(s).

 

What grind? SWTOR is the least grindy MMO I've ever played.

Edited April 2, 2012 by Cruxe

[Zintair]

The REASON you should care about DAoC and learn from it, if you consider yourself a "PvP Player" is that DAOC is the Gold Standard of PvP in MMORPG'S. It hands down has the best, most competitive, most exciting PvP on the market even 10 years after its release.

 

I wont go as far as calling everyone a noob cuz they didnt play DAoC, but if I have a choice of joining a Rated 8man of former DAoCers or a rated 8 man of former WoW players, Im taking the offer from the DAoCers without thinking twice.

 

And before you tell me to go back to DAoC, I still play it...I cant get my guild to leave DAoC for Star Wars cuz they know the PvP wont be as good.

 

Im here because after 10 years of DAoC I WANT a new game......so when we former DAoCers post in this forum ....we are hoping that someone will see our ideas...because we know what great PvP in an MMORPG is SUPPOSED to look and feel like

 

This.

 

The problem is Developers all want to change or tweak the mechanics to their own and make it work. Whether its' to take the credit or lack of forsight I will never know. But it's sad that ONLY NOW are we finally seeing another 3 faction RvR game in GW2. DAOC and Planetside are both 8+ years old.

 

I think GW2 has a lot of good ideas that will combat a lot of the bigger issues other MMOs will have to deal with.

 

People can deal with bugs and imbalance for some time but if the overall features are terribad they are going to be called out and the secret will be out and the game will be labeled and off to the next wait game.

 

 

SWTOR needs to get their Open-World going ASAP or it's too late.

[Tatumsa]

In a way, new MMO developers tried to do the world PVP thing by having PVP servers, with low level starting zones being "safe" and the rest FFA. They kinda of got it right in WAR, with the PVP areas with the quests andobjectives too IMO.

 

My best PVP experiences with DAOC PVP in one word - Thidranki

 

I loved the simpleness of it, one keep, three sides. You could always go there if there was just you and take it, then take it back and I must have seen it pass hands loads of times in the space of an evening. While you where there with a ram on the gate you never knew if you were going to get rolled from another realm. Fun times.

[EnochThompson]

What grind? SWTOR is the least grindy MMO I've ever played.

 

lol seriously the only real grind was the valor, now thats going down the drain...

 

If anybody has any illusion that this is even a great game regarding PVE they are fooling themselves. Calling EV/KP great epic PVE instances is a joke...

 

I couldve at least gave them the benefit of the doubt if this game didnt have content that even a monkey can complete. Not going to compare this game with the other epic MMO's because it doesnt even fall into the same category...

 

Fine this is BW's first MMO, they have great past games (neverwinter nights...) however this is a big disapointment. Hopefully... pray to god that 1.2 will help them recover, since GW2 has no release date and there is nothing out there besides D3 thats coming out May 15.