Women in army

[RixoFutu]

I was just wondering. In movies, there is no woman in Imperial/Republic Army and yet, in this game there is plenty of them.

 

I don't have problem with that (so don't sue me ), i'm just curious

Edited April 2, 2012 by Moitteva
removed IC/PMed

[Diviciacus]

Well, the Original Trilogy was 1977-1980 (IIRC, not sure on RotJ date), so women in military would have been a sidelined and mostly ignored minority, and it's kind of reflected in the Imperial military (although there are a few women in the Rebel Alliance fighter pilots, and Mon Mothma, the de facto leader after Bail Organa dies with Alderaan, is a woman).

 

The Prequel Trilogy there are no women in the Republic army because the Republic literally controlled the entire galaxy that wasn't Hutt Cartel and so they had no army until the Clone wars - where every trooper was literally the same guy (Jango Fett clones). So that's excused on sheer premise: why would a clone of a guy suddenly be a woman?

 

The Republic in this time period is more gender equal than real life is and so has women in it (by extension, so too does the Empire), simply because of this gender equality, so anyone can do anything if they put their mind to it (figuratively, not Jedi-sense), or if they're conniving enough in the Empire.

[Rouge]

Different eras... Over 3650 years between SWTOR and OT, and in SWTOR Empire it's explained well. Originally all adults served in the military after they started to rebuild on Dromund Kaas, because they needed everyone. Even now, when clearly that's not the case, a some kind of national conscription seems to be going on, and the heritage of that gender equality could still play a huge role when it comes to women's roles in the Empire.

 

OT Empire army is based on all male Clone army. Late Republic had no national conscription, no civilian national service, and we can assume that more males than females served in local police forces and planetary militias as people could decide, at least those of enough wealth (so, starting perhaps from upper working class), what they could do. In SWTOR era Empire military service was something that all citizens might still expect to go through.

[Temeluchus]

Just from the movies standpoint, the Imperials we see are Navy or Stormtroopers. Not many people know(nor can you tell by the accuracy of the fire) that Stormtroopers are considered an elite unit in the Imperial forces and as others have pointed out are all based from the prime clone of Jango Fett, a male.

 

For all we know the standard Imperial army has women in it since to my knowledge we never encounter the standard Imperial army, only the various Trooper units, Imperial Navy and Imperial Guards.

Edited April 2, 2012 by Temeluchus

[psandak]

You are all trying to come up with an "in saga" reason when you don't have to. The reason comes from the fact that the OT was made in the 1970's and this game was made today: 30+ years of real world societal evolution will do that.

[Jandi]

You are all trying to come up with an "in saga" reason when you don't have to. The reason comes from the fact that the OT was made in the 1970's and this game was made today: 30+ years of real world societal evolution will do that.

 

This. There is nothing more complex to it. Yes, the OT is sexist and racist so what? So was the overwhelming majority of movies back then.

Edited April 2, 2012 by Jandi

[Mechavomit]

Come on.. Not having women in the army is not sexist. And the OT had female leaders.

[Temeluchus]

You are all trying to come up with an "in saga" reason when you don't have to. The reason comes from the fact that the OT was made in the 1970's and this game was made today: 30+ years of real world societal evolution will do that.

 

That answer is extremely accurate and obvious,which is why since the question was still asked, I think he wanted a lore reasoning.

[wrong_turn]

Simple, in the OT you only ever see part of the Imperial military. There could be plenty of women, but we only see snipets of the Navy and Stormtroopers. There doesn't need to be a complicated lore reason for it. If we saw other theaters of the conflict between the Rebels and the Empire, or got a look at the crew of one of the Star Destroyers or regular Imperial Army, maybe we would see more diversity. But we didn't. I mean if you watch the first 3 movies it looks like Leia is the only woman in the Galaxy and Lando is the only black guy. The most we can say about the SW universe based on the movies is there is a lack of gender and racial diversity in the films. But they don't represent the entire universe.

[Captain_Zone]

I was just wondering. In movies, there is no woman in Imperial/Republic Army and yet, in this game there is plenty of them.

 

I don't have problem with that (so don't sue me ), i'm just curious

 

I noticed in the OT that most females in the Alliance were in support roles. Only one that actively fought was Leia, in fact. She was the ONLY female on the Endor strike team, in fact.

 

Also, there were only 3 black guys in the OT. Not sure why because Lando was BOSS and so was Vader. Then there was that one dude at the Battle of Endor in the A-Wing that died first.... Yes, I agree with a previous poster. I do believe the OT was a bit racist there.

 

Bad cliches. Gotta love 'em.

Edited April 2, 2012 by Moitteva
removed quoted IC

[Temeluchus]

I noticed in the OT that most females in the Alliance were in support roles. Only one that actively fought was Leia, in fact. She was the ONLY female on the Endor strike team, in fact.

 

Also, there were only 3 black guys in the OT. Not sure why because Lando was BOSS and so was Vader. Then there was that one dude at the Battle of Endor in the A-Wing that died first.... Yes, I agree with a previous poster. I do believe the OT was a bit racist there.

 

Bad cliches. Gotta love 'em.

 

Technically every single Stormtrooper was a person of color, not black and you couldn't tell because of the armor, but they are not Caucasian. All the troopers are from the same prime clone,Jango Fett who is played by an actor that is a mix of Maori,Irish and Scottish.

[Captain_Zone]

Technically every single Stormtrooper was a person of color, not black and you couldn't tell because of the armor, but they are not Caucasian. All the troopers are from the same prime clone,Jango Fett who is played by an actor that is a mix of Maori,Irish and Scottish.

 

And he went on to play Abin Sur. Great character, and should be given his own Green Lantern prequel movie, imo. And yes, get Temuera Morrison back to play him!

Edited April 2, 2012 by Captain_Zone

[RixoFutu]

Technically every single Stormtrooper was a person of color, not black and you couldn't tell because of the armor, but they are not Caucasian. All the troopers are from the same prime clone,Jango Fett who is played by an actor that is a mix of Maori,Irish and Scottish.

 

In OT, Stormtroopers are normal people. Most of the clones were dead or retired long time ago in that time.

[Wolfninjajedi]

In OT, Stormtroopers are normal people. Most of the clones were dead or retired long time ago in that time.

 

The only true clone legion was the 501st. But anyway to address the topic, Lucas pulled his ideas from various sources from myth, history, literature and the like. The reason there are no women in the Imperial Army, is because women in myth/literature are viewed as beings of life/nurturing and sort of peace. The Empire, is none of those things as they are destructive, reckless and in a way soulless this is what the death star was pretty much bland with color, why the stormtroopers look the same, why there was a bottomless pit of darkness.

 

Reason why they are in-game though? Because then people would think that, BW is being unfair to the other gender.

[Thormart]

Also, they generally don't make good front line soldiers.

 

I was in the norwegian military (were all branches are supposedly equal-opportunity as opposed to the US and UK who don't let women join combat infantry units) as a rifleman in a mech infantry unit and I've only seen one real life female infantry(wo?)man (MG3 gunner, 7.62 NATO version of the MG42, damn heavy gun) who could actually pull her weight, and this was in a unit of 80 men. the other 6 were utter rubbish who got kicked out before a month passed or in one case shoved into a logistics company where they wouldn't do any damage.

 

And it was clear that even that was an anomaly, no officer or NCO that I knew had ever seen another woman who could actually pull their weight in a unit like ours.

 

Its just the real life facts, nothing more. Some can do it yes, but they are in a vast minority compared to the boys.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Also, they generally don't make good front line soldiers.

 

I was in the norwegian military (were all branches are supposedly equal-opportunity as opposed to the US and UK who don't let women join combat infantry units) as a rifleman in a mech infantry unit and I've only seen one real life female infantry(wo?)man (MG3 gunner, 7.62 NATO version of the MG42, damn heavy gun) who could actually pull her weight, and this was in a unit of 80 men. the other 6 were utter rubbish who got kicked out before a month passed or in one case shoved into a logistics company where they wouldn't do any damage.

 

And it was clear that even that was an anomaly, no officer or NCO that I knew had ever seen another woman who could actually pull their weight in a unit like ours.

 

Its just the real life facts, nothing more. Some can do it yes, but they are in a vast minority compared to the boys.

 

Hate to say it, but that evolution for ya. Ever since the dawn of man, the men have gone out fighting and killing eachother with clubs while the women maintained the camps and looked after the children.

Edited April 2, 2012 by Wolfninjajedi

[Thormart]

Hate to say it, but that evolution for ya. Ever since the dawn of man, the men have gone out fighting and killing eachother with clubs while the women maintained the camps and looked after the children.

 

yeah, pretty much

[Suaine]

Also, they generally don't make good front line soldiers.

 

I was in the norwegian military (were all branches are supposedly equal-opportunity as opposed to the US and UK who don't let women join combat infantry units) as a rifleman in a mech infantry unit and I've only seen one real life female infantry(wo?)man (MG3 gunner, 7.62 NATO version of the MG42, damn heavy gun) who could actually pull her weight, and this was in a unit of 80 men. the other 6 were utter rubbish who got kicked out before a month passed or in one case shoved into a logistics company where they wouldn't do any damage.

 

And it was clear that even that was an anomaly, no officer or NCO that I knew had ever seen another woman who could actually pull their weight in a unit like ours.

 

Its just the real life facts, nothing more. Some can do it yes, but they are in a vast minority compared to the boys.

 

Women don't make good frontline soldiers for the same reason they don't make good athletes... oh wait, they do.

 

The reason you haven't seen that many female front line soldiers is because there is an enormous barrier to entry, even in countries with supposedly equal opportunity. Would you say that all males make good frontline soldiers then? No, and 1 out of 7 seems a reasonable number for them as well, there's just that many more of them trying for the job in the first place.

 

Your personal experience is not a fact of life. Women in general can and do make just as competent a frontline soldier as men do, they just haven't been given the same chance to prove it.

[Thormart]

Women don't make good frontline soldiers for the same reason they don't make good athletes... oh wait, they do.

 

The reason you haven't seen that many female front line soldiers is because there is an enormous barrier to entry, even in countries with supposedly equal opportunity. Would you say that all males make good frontline soldiers then? No, and 1 out of 7 seems a reasonable number for them as well, there's just that many more of them trying for the job in the first place.

 

Your personal experience is not a fact of life. Women in general can and do make just as competent a frontline soldier as men do, they just haven't been given the same chance to prove it.

 

are you kidding me? norwegian high command is litterally begging them to join due to the whole equal opportunity thing being a huge PR boost for an unpopular part of norwegian society. and it's working. The fact of the matter is though, that most girls can't carry a 70 kg backpack for 10 km up a 40 degree slope. They either can't take it physically (a lot of them leave under the excuse of back pains and such) or mentally, (2 girls I saw break down in tears during marches, not a pretty sight)

 

And like I said its the same story all over. Girls join a combat unit, discover that they can't take it and leaves voluntarily. This is something nearly all the officers and Squadleaders I know have experienced frequently.

 

Like I said there are exeptions, and I'm fine with them joining but I'd rather have more male recruits(a lot of whom don't get to join because the girls are prioritized regardless of physical ability).

 

And they're not even held up to the same standards as the boys, the physical requirements are significantly reduced for girls in terms uf pushups, pullups lap times and the like and yet they still wash out. The ONE girl I was talking about managed it because she could actually keep up with the boys and she earned a ton of respect because of it and she was a great squadmate

 

She did cause a bit of drama though, but she wasn't one of regular fieldmattress that we get way too often.

Edited April 4, 2012 by Thormart

[Raiellyn]

Women don't make good frontline soldiers for the same reason they don't make good athletes... oh wait, they do.

 

The reason you haven't seen that many female front line soldiers is because there is an enormous barrier to entry, even in countries with supposedly equal opportunity. Would you say that all males make good frontline soldiers then? No, and 1 out of 7 seems a reasonable number for them as well, there's just that many more of them trying for the job in the first place.

 

Your personal experience is not a fact of life. Women in general can and do make just as competent a frontline soldier as men do, they just haven't been given the same chance to prove it.

 

... Suaine. I've seen you in the SGRA thread a lot. But now, after this post, I officially <3 you. Stay classy.

 

To further the point, the issue is that, while sexual dimorphism exists, sexual dimorphism in humans is not nearly as dramatic as the "biotruthers" would have you believe. The male and female body and brain are not identical, but in practice, the difference between male and female capabilities isn't large enough to be meaningfully quantifiable -- the average man has more upper-body strength than the average woman, but not by that much, and the difference between the genders (average man vs. average woman) is far less distinct than the differences within them (average people vs. bodybuilders of their own gender).

 

Humans are a much less sexually dimorphic species than most, and the empirical data really isn't there to back up that one gender is really dominant over another in any capacity. Any individual human being is going to have a wide array of personal strengths and weaknesses, and saying "you're X gender so you can't be good at Y" doesn't reflect reality. The reason more men succeed in the military? Because more try to join due to societal upbringing.

 

That's why you see that huge "PR push" to get women in the military with lowered standards; because not as many join, and because of their upbringing, they have a higher chance to fail without any sort of pre-training. Not because of their ovaries, but because there is no incentive for women to be physically strong in most modern cultures. It's entirely internal on whether they pursue physical success or not, whereas men have bucketloads of external pressure to do so.

 

This stuff even gets into games. Sexual dimorphism in games, up until the last five or six years, basically always means that female game characters are more restricted or weaker than their male counterparts; not only does it perpetuate stereotypes, but it punishes female gamers who just want to play characters of their own gender for a change. It sucks to even have fantasy play reinforce that women are different and lesser -- I get enough of that in real life, why would I want it in my games?

 

Bottom-line; doesn't matter whether or not women can be, should be, or are in the military. This is a game. The options are open because that is what Bioware does; they include people. And that is why I love them as a company.

Edited April 4, 2012 by Raiellyn

[Thormart]

Bottom-line; doesn't matter whether or not women can be, should be, or are in the military. This is a game. The options are open because that is what Bioware does; they include people. And that is why I love them as a company.

 

This I wholeheartedly agree with.

 

And don't take my observations personally. They are simply based on my own experiences on the subject. And I felt that sharing them could not hurt.

[Raiellyn]

This I wholeheartedly agree with.

 

And don't take my observations personally. They are simply based on my own experiences on the subject. And I felt that sharing them could not hurt.

 

Oh, of course not. I hope my post didn't seem hostile; I'm not accusing you of lying about your experiences. I just wanted to point out that it's a bit of a logical fallacy to paint a whole group with one brush based on that.

[Thormart]

Oh, of course not. I hope my post didn't seem hostile; I'm not accusing you of lying about your experiences. I just wanted to point out that it's a bit of a logical fallacy to paint a whole group with one brush based on that.

 

well I sorta explicitly stated that I wasn't , but oh well.

[Valkuu]

Hello everyone,

 

We are closing this thread, as the discussion has turned to real-life issues such as women in the real-world military. Real-life politics, religion, and other similar subjects are inappropriate for these forums, so please stay away from these topics in future posts and threads.

 

We appreciate your understanding that we've closed this thread!