Retaliation 1.2

[aeysee]

Of all the changes. Does anyone think this has been over looked. 3 rage for an off the gcd reactive ability. I'm thinking more along the lines of 1 rage. Thoughts?

[Quor]

It needs a lower resource cost for sure. Either have it cost less for Marauders/Sentinels or else have the resource refunding talent in Annihilation/Watchman also affect it. Then it would be worth using. As it stands now you get almost as much damage from Slash or Vicious Slash but for less cost.

[iNaddict]

It needs a lower resource cost for sure. Either have it cost less for Marauders/Sentinels or else have the resource refunding talent in Annihilation/Watchman also affect it. Then it would be worth using. As it stands now you get almost as much damage from Slash or Vicious Slash but for less cost.

 

 

You are comparing Retaliation with Slash or Vicious Slash. Retaliation is off the GCD and is really a tanking skill which means when you are properly setup the rage cost doesnt even matter...

 

Not a fair comparison really.. i like Retaliation more than Vicious Slash or Slash purely because its off GCD...

[Quor]

You are comparing Retaliation with Slash or Vicious Slash. Retaliation is off the GCD and is really a tanking skill which means when you are properly setup the rage cost doesnt even matter...

 

Not a fair comparison really.. i like Retaliation more than Vicious Slash or Slash purely because its off GCD...

 

So if Retaliation is mostly a tanking skill, that begs the question....why does the non-tank AC have it? Clearly it must not be "only" a tanking skill.

 

See, the problem with Retaliation is that it's a resource hog reliant on a stat that Marauders don't stack in order to see use (defense, as parries proc it). It hits for slightly more than Vicious Slash, for the same rage cost, while being unavoidable and off the GCD. However, the devil is in the details. If you have 3 rage and the option to use Retaliation or VS, you're better off using VS, because when talented VS will refund a rage while Retaliation will not. This may not seem like a lot, but it's the difference between doing two moves in a row versus having to add in a rage-builder between the two moves.

 

The simple solution would be to attach Retaliation to Enraged Slash. Every use of Retaliation then refunds one rage on use. That would put it on par with VS in terms of resource cost, which given the higher damage Ret does in comparison to VS would make it worthwhile to use. As it stands now, Ret doesn't offer much even when talented to reduce CoP cooldown.

[Swarna]

It's a PVP-only ability for the Marauder. It rarely sees PVE use outside of that second last boss thing in EV.

 

People overlook Retaliate in its current incarnation. In the case of a proc, these are its benefits (PVP or PVE):

 

1) It hits your target no matter what. This means it always goes through abilities like Saber Ward and Dodge. This makes it a higher expected damage option in some cases than most of your other melee attacks.

 

2) Being off the GCD, you can't compare it to any other move in your arsenal in the usual sense. If all your main abilities are on cooldown (doesn't matter which spec you're playing in) your default option would be to build rage or just Vicious Slash. This part is mostly in response to the post above me. What most fail to realize is that if you have Retaliate proc'd and ready to use, you can Assault + Retaliate in the same global to deal moderately more damage than a single Vicious Slash would. Furthermore, you would only expend 1 rage to do that action (build 2, spend 3 in the same global) instead of the 2 (talented) for Vicious Slash.

 

3) In a normal scenario, Retaliation is a DPS increase only if its use won't prevent you from using one of your core abilities (Annihilate, Rupture, Force Scream, Gore, Foce Crush, Smash, etc. depending on spec). If you're managing your rage well and keeping a healthy pool of it, you should have no problems utilizing it in your attack chains even if you're trying to use key abilities at the same time. It also creates some nice burst potential when used in conjunction with Annihilate and auto-crit Screams and Smashes.

 

The 3 rage cost is fine. If it was reduced, the ability would become a "no-brainer" type of ability and wouldn't require any action from the user to gauge its effectiveness in a certain scenario to deem it worthy enough to use. The Marauder class is already receiving a couple of changes that make the class easier to play in 1.2 (like the Obfuscate changes...). We don't need another.

Edited April 2, 2012 by Swarna

[Quor]

It's a PVP-only ability for the Marauder. It rarely sees PVE use outside of that second last boss thing in EV.

 

People overlook Retaliate in its current incarnation. In the case of a proc, these are its benefits (PVP or PVE):

 

1) It hits your target no matter what. This means it always goes through abilities like Saber Ward and Dodge. This makes it a higher expected damage option in some cases than most of your other melee attacks.

 

2) Being off the GCD, you can't compare it to any other move in your arsenal in the usual sense. If all your main abilities are on cooldown (doesn't matter which spec you're playing in) your default option would be to build rage or just Vicious Slash. This part is mostly in response to the post above me. What most fail to realize is that if you have Retaliate proc'd and ready to use, you can Assault + Retaliate in the same global to deal moderately more damage than a single Vicious Slash would. Furthermore, you would only expend 1 rage to do that action (build 2, spend 3 in the same global) instead of the 2 (talented) for Vicious Slash.

 

3) In a normal scenario, Retaliation is a DPS increase only if its use won't prevent you from using one of your core abilities (Annihilate, Rupture, Force Scream, Gore, Foce Crush, Smash, etc. depending on spec). If you're managing your rage well and keeping a healthy pool of it, you should have no problems utilizing it in your attack chains even if you're trying to use key abilities at the same time. It also creates some nice burst potential when used in conjunction with Annihilate and auto-crit Screams and Smashes.

 

The 3 rage cost is fine. If it was reduced, the ability would become a "no-brainer" type of ability and wouldn't require any action from the user to gauge its effectiveness in a certain scenario to deem it worthy enough to use. The Marauder class is already receiving a couple of changes that make the class easier to play in 1.2 (like the Obfuscate changes...). We don't need another.

 

See, I know it *should* be off the GCD, but mine still doesn't like to trigger if the GCD is still running, and sometimes triggering it gets my character stuck in the animation to do so without firing the skill off while also setting off a GCD timer.

 

It's very annoying, and similar to the "phantom Ravage" bug that comes up every now and then, when you'll use Ravage and the animation will play out but the skill won't fire and the CD on Ravage won't activate, yet you'll be stuck in the three second animation until it ends.

 

To that end, I've just stopped using Retaliate. For being "off the GCD" it still borks things up enough to the point that I can't rationalize using it when I'm not tanking on my Jugg :/

[Xerain]

maybe if i could macro it to assault i'd use it...

[Deviltreh]

3 rage cost for low damage? And activating GCD half the time?

 

No ty.

[Cempa]

Retaliation-----> Rage generating ability

 

Since its off GC it counts as 1 ability so you spend 3 and get 2 back for the same GC!!!!!

 

I don't know but it seems amazing to me.

 

OR

 

Basic Rage generating ability THEN Retaliation!! You get a solid damage cost for 1 GC at the cost of 1 rage.

Edited April 2, 2012 by Cempa

[Swarna]

It doesn't activate the GCD "half the time". There's a bug in the skill engine that makes any ability activate the GCD, including your interrupt, Berserk, Cloak of Pain, etc. You can always avoid this bug if you activate these abilities with a certain timing in relation to your last used ability. Namely, I've noticed I never incur an extra GCD when I press Retaliate immediately after any other attack. I've noticed that the bug occurs often when I use any off-GCD ability right before the start of the next global (and next ability usage).

 

Not using Retaliate because you don't want to deal with an extra button or work around a GCD bug is your choice. Personally, I think that's about equal to not using something like Berserk or Disruption, both of which have the same flaw.

[Foxcolt]

1) It hits your target no matter what. This means it always goes through abilities like Saber Ward and Dodge. This makes it a higher expected damage option in some cases than most of your other melee attacks.

 

2) Being off the GCD, you can't compare it to any other move in your arsenal in the usual sense. If all your main abilities are on cooldown (doesn't matter which spec you're playing in) your default option would be to build rage or just Vicious Slash. This part is mostly in response to the post above me. What most fail to realize is that if you have Retaliate proc'd and ready to use, you can Assault + Retaliate in the same global to deal moderately more damage than a single Vicious Slash would. Furthermore, you would only expend 1 rage to do that action (build 2, spend 3 in the same global) instead of the 2 (talented) for Vicious Slash.

 

The 3 rage cost is fine. If it was reduced, the ability would become a "no-brainer" type of ability and wouldn't require any action from the user to gauge its effectiveness in a certain scenario to deem it worthy enough to use. The Marauder class is already receiving a couple of changes that make the class easier to play in 1.2 (like the Obfuscate changes...). We don't need another.

 

1, is a decent point.

 

2, however most people (that aren't terrible) tend to use Assault only as a last resort to build rage as with a full stack of annihilate you'll never really have the time to Assault if you're decent with your cooldowns. With your logic in PVP you're expending one rage to retaliate/assault and therefore gimping yourself when your other abilities come off cooldown. The only time I would use assault is when I'm 1 or 2 rage away from an annihilate with it coming off cooldown. Or if I quickly need to apply rupture to a running target and I'm at zero rage.

 

Really in PVP the loss of two rage for the damage isn't worth it when you compare what skills you "Could" be using instead. Even if you need to use another global.

 

The 3 rage cost isn't fine..it's dps to rage is terrible compared to abilities that aren't off the GCD. It needs to be lowered to one rage..plain and simple..it's a situational ability that's meant to be used on proc..but in it's current form there is no place for it due to our already tight rotations.

 

 

Again..if you use retaliation in a PVP situation because it's off the GCD you're only gimping your rage generation and therefore potentially doing less dps in the long run.

 

Lower it's cost to bring it more in line with it's crappy damage and perhaps then it would be useful for marauders. As of now I just keep it on my toolbar for the lulz.

[EasymodeX]

with a full stack of annihilate you'll never really have the time to Assault if you're decent with your cooldowns.

 

What the ****?

 

 

The 3 rage cost isn't fine..it's dps to rage is terrible compared to abilities that aren't off the GCD.

 

GCDS ARE EXPENSIVE.

 

Retaliation ends up being price-competitive when you factor the lack of time.

 

 

Again..if you use retaliation in a PVP situation because it's off the GCD you're only gimping your rage generation and therefore potentially doing less dps in the long run.

 

You use it in PvP because it adds burst and ignores 100% dodge buffs.

 

You use it generally because Retal+Assault > VS.

[TheHorsemen]

It builds fury

 

can be used for burst

 

off GC

 

talented reduces our shield

 

more damage then VS per GC via an assault at the net cost of 1 rage

 

The only time I don't use it on CD is when I need the rage for a dot or anni

[Swarna]

1, is a decent point.

 

2, however most people (that aren't terrible) tend to use Assault only as a last resort to build rage as with a full stack of annihilate you'll never really have the time to Assault if you're decent with your cooldowns.

 

Assault is probably one of my most-used abilities. Without using Assault there would be no way I could Annihilate (4 rage) every 7.5s, Rupture (2 rage) every reset/bleed conclusion, and Deadly Saber (3 rage) every 12 seconds. I'm not sure what you are doing if you aren't using Assault liberally to maintain this type of ability usage. Using Assault as a "last resort" is detrimental to your DPS, because you're going to rage starve yourself at the time your best abilities become available to use. One Battering Assault (6 rage) every 15s doesn't cut it for this amount of rage spending. Between every 7.5s Annihilate CD there are 4 globals. You may or may not spend 1 global to activate Rupture and spend 1 global to activate Battering Assault if we are talking about straight up damage. That is plenty of time to use Assault. Even if you use Charge as a rage builder-only (bad idea btw...) you're building 9 or 10 rage every 15 seconds if you only rely on BA and Charge, but spending atleast that amount (2 Annihilates and a single Rupture cost 10 rage, we haven't even factored in DS or Rupture resets). There is plenty of time to activate Assault and it is actually mandatory to do so

 

With your logic in PVP you're expending one rage to retaliate/assault and therefore gimping yourself when your other abilities come off cooldown.

 

I already addressed this point before you even made it.

 

3) In a normal scenario, Retaliation is a DPS increase only if its use won't prevent you from using one of your core abilities (Annihilate, Rupture, Force Scream, Gore, Foce Crush, Smash, etc. depending on spec). If you're managing your rage well and keeping a healthy pool of it, you should have no problems utilizing it in your attack chains even if you're trying to use key abilities at the same time.

 

 

My "other" abilities (if we are talking about Annihilation and damage-dealing only) are Annihilate, Rupture, and Deadly Saber. If the use of Retaliate doesn't hinder my ability to use any of the above as soon as they are available and my Pulverize talent is on cooldown, there is no "gimping" myself. This is actually the case when I play. If you are sitting at barely enough rage to utilize your core abilities (like <5) then using Retaliate is probably a bad idea. I never said to always use it no matter what. You have to use your discretion and be able to tell when it will actually benefit you (and it will).

 

...it's a situational ability that's meant to be used on proc...

 

Truth.

 

...but in it's current form there is no place for it due to our already tight rotations.

 

False. There is a place for it (however small it may be) that benefits you as I'm trying to show you.

 

To summarize concisely, this is what Retaliate can do for you in PVP (when you can afford it, and you WILL be able to if you are managing rage well:

 

1) Extra burst when used in conjunction with big hitters.

2) Defense chance penetration like no other weapon ability.

3) Stronger filler attack than Vicious Slash with higher damage per global AND damage per rage ratios.

 

Furthermore, although I can't hands-down prove it without combat logs, its proper utilization increases your raiding DPS. You might never get a proc, but when you do, it's a DPS increase. I can say that my council chamber fights go FASTER when I use Retaliate in my priority list than when I don't. I've tested this with the same gear setup numerous times and the results are cut and dry clear in my mind and on the timer I used: utilization of Retaliate is a DPS INCREASE.

Edited April 2, 2012 by Swarna

[Foxcolt]

Assault is probably one of my most-used abilities. Without using Assault there would be no way I could Annihilate (4 rage) every 7.5s, Rupture (2 rage) every reset/bleed conclusion, and Deadly Saber (3 rage) every 12 seconds. I'm not sure what you are doing if you aren't using Assault liberally to maintain this type of ability usage. Using Assault as a "last resort" is detrimental to your DPS, because you're going to rage starve yourself at the time your best abilities become available to use. One Battering Assault (6 rage) every 15s doesn't cut it for this amount of rage spending. Between every 7.5s Annihilate CD there are 4 globals. You may or may not spend 1 global to activate Rupture and spend 1 global to activate Battering Assault if we are talking about straight up damage. That is plenty of time to use Assault. Even if you use Charge as a rage builder-only (bad idea btw...) you're building 9 or 10 rage every 15 seconds if you only rely on BA and Charge, but spending atleast that amount (2 Annihilates and a single Rupture cost 10 rage, we haven't even factored in DS or Rupture resets). There is plenty of time to activate Assault and it is actually mandatory to do so

 

 

All Valid points - But mine is simple... In it's current form I don't feel that retaliation is worth the 1 rage cost (when used with assault) at the loss of 2 rage built.

 

My previous post may have made it seem otherwise but I use assault as a last resort rage builder (not damage) so in fact I use it semi often when needing to build rage for my next cooldown.

 

But my point again, the times I use assault are when I can or am forced to spend a GCD in order to build rage for another ability. Therefore the rage gained is valued higher than the damage of retaliation + assault and more of an increase in dps vs potentially not being able to use another one of your abilities off cooldown.

 

I see the point you're making and to some degree I agree. When VS spamming it could prove wise to mix in an retaliation + assault in there for the added damage (is it proven that the combo is more dmg than a crit VS? I'll have to check)

 

But I still don't think that the skill should cost 3 rage..if it's intent is to be used on proc (which the talents in our annihilation and carnage tree certainly make it seem) that it should be a no brainer to use every time it procs, it shouldn't be a situational ability. If it's cost were reduced to 1 rage then I believe it would be more inline with what the dev's intended.

 

Which is to be used every time it procs regardless of what you use it with.

Edited April 2, 2012 by Foxcolt

[verfallen]

Its priceless with solo PvE since it allows you to keep Cloak of Pain up 100% of the time used on CD. Basically allows you to take on some elite champs with Quinn. Add to this the off GCD, non dodgeable part and the fury building (which can be traded for EVEN MORE survivability in annihilation).

 

For end-game raid? Yeh prolly not. For solo play when you are typically the one playing tank? Heck yes.

 

While immortal jug will use it on CD all the time since it buff their defenses, it isn't as clear cut for the marauder, of course. But its far from useless. Don't like it? Don't use it. With that truckload of abilities on your bar, I'm sure you can find something else to use.

 

But the point people make of doing an assault->retaliation or battering assault->retaliation combo is valid.

 

My own spec is till I hit 50, including Cloak of Annihilation AND Cloak of carnage. Basically pays for my retaliations, since the cloak I use it for becomes a rage income.

[muradi]

Try a finisher with Annihilate, Riposte and Dispatch, all within 1.5 secs.

Average 6k dmg.

Edited April 3, 2012 by muradi

[Foxcolt]

Try a finisher with Annihilate, Riposte and Dispatch, all within 1.5 secs.

Average 6k dmg.

 

I'm guessing you mean 3 seconds...

 

And that's a lot of rage you would need to pool up to be able to run that combo

Edited April 3, 2012 by Foxcolt

[EasymodeX]

I'm guessing you mean 3 seconds...

 

No, that damage lands within 1.5 seconds. L2count.

 

 

And that's a lot of rage you would need to pool up to be able to run that combo

 

4+3+3 = 3 plus Battering Assault that just came off cooldown plus 1 tick of rage from DOTs sometime in the last while.

 

Anni: 2.5k, VT: 2.5k, Ret: 1k. Total: 6k, crits: 8k.

 

 

Half their HP within 1.5 seconds, no adrenals, generic target.

 

 

Furthermore, although I can't hands-down prove it without combat logs, its proper utilization increases your raiding DPS.

 

You can prove it easily with casual analysis. It's a DPS gain for anything that is not 31 Carn (because Massacre is just a better ragedump).

 

The only issue is that its rage cost makes it awkward for rage management around it. This is a [not-insignificant] player and fight condition constraint.

Edited April 3, 2012 by EasymodeX

[Foxcolt]

No, that damage lands within 1.5 seconds. L2count.

 

 

 

 

4+3+3 = 3 plus Battering Assault that just came off cooldown plus 1 tick of rage from DOTs sometime in the last while.

 

Anni: 2.5k, VT: 2.5k, Ret: 1k. Total: 6k, crits: 8k.

 

 

Half their HP within 1.5 seconds, no adrenals, generic target.

 

 

Annihilate and dispatch/viscous throw are both on the GCD..are you just counting from the time annihilate lands? It's 3 skills in two globals :/

 

It still shouldn't cost 3 rage..it should be 1. Then it could be used every time it procs rather than trying to weave it into the few situations where it's beneficial to do so.

[EasymodeX]

1. Count the time. It's 1.5. Draw it on a line graph if you need to visualize it.

 

2. Yeah I wish I could roll my face from left to right across the keyboard and automagically **** out optimal DPS without using my brain, etc. Too bad.

[Werdan]

maybe if i could macro it to assault i'd use it...

 

You could with the right KB/gamepad/mouse. I have mine set with Assault, meaning it only winds up costing me 1 Rage while building Fury at the same time. I use a G13 gamepad. I also have Vicious Throw set to the same key. There's some red text spam you have to deal with (abiliy not ready, etc, etc) but it's only an issue if you spam it.

 

That said, Retaliation could use a bit of a buff. Any combination of Rage reduction, damage increase, and added utility (ie debuff target, interrupt, etc) could be better incentives for players to actually use it.

[verfallen]

You could with the right KB/gamepad/mouse. I have mine set with Assault, meaning it only winds up costing me 1 Rage while building Fury at the same time. I use a G13 gamepad. I also have Vicious Throw set to the same key. There's some red text spam you have to deal with (abiliy not ready, etc, etc) but it's only an issue if you spam it.

 

That said, Retaliation could use a bit of a buff. Any combination of Rage reduction, damage increase, and added utility (ie debuff target, interrupt, etc) could be better incentives for players to actually use it.

 

Not all abilities should always be a no-brainer keep it on CD one.

 

This thread proved many people didn't like it, and didn't bother with it, while many other (me included) see a part of the rotation where its a very useful move to dish additionnal damage/build extra furry on a same GCD. Choice comes from : do I have an ability coming off CD that needs me to keep my rage? (ex Annihilate). So yes, its one more proc to watch for and analyse. Like it like it not its not game breaking and work perfectly well as it is.

[Xerain]

You could with the right KB/gamepad/mouse. I have mine set with Assault, meaning it only winds up costing me 1 Rage while building Fury at the same time. I use a G13 gamepad. I also have Vicious Throw set to the same key. There's some red text spam you have to deal with (abiliy not ready, etc, etc) but it's only an issue if you spam it.

 

That said, Retaliation could use a bit of a buff. Any combination of Rage reduction, damage increase, and added utility (ie debuff target, interrupt, etc) could be better incentives for players to actually use it.

 

i have a g110 and a naga... i only use two of the macro keys on the keyboard because they're actually easy to reach.

[Foxcolt]

I started weaving it a bit more in my rotations during wz's..and it does work well in the situations it's warranted. It's especially nice to use on an operative thats low on health with his/her dodge buff..but since you have to have someone wailing on you in order to proc it I was only able to pull that off once in a night of pvp w/ saber ward on.

 

But I still think the rage cost needs to be more appropriate to the damage it does.