A Request for Raid-Wide Combat Logs

[pureeffinmetal]

I completely agree with the OP here. To progression raiders these are tools that make our lives easier and would greatly appreciate them.

 

I've played DPS in MMOs for several years now and enjoy using such tools to improve my own game play and maximize the potential of my class. Bioware has seen fit to make every boss in game so far have some type of hard enrage. When a boss enrages on me as my DPS I take it personally before I look towards others faults. Being able to have operation-wide logs (preferably live but I'll take what I can get) to find out how to maximize group effort will only help.

 

The absurd fears people have of cyber-bullying and elitism coming from group logs is unwarranted. Even without logs its fairly easy to tell who isn't pulling their weight. This is slightly more difficult in a 16 man but becomes much easier in 8 and is very clear cut in 4 man groups.

 

If you are tanking for example in a HM BT group and on the first boss, he enrages. You try a couple times and he keeps enraging. Its easy to tell the DPS in your party sucks and you're either going to ninja log off, or kick them.

 

The only difference logs bring is exact numbers to the problem of: the boss is still enraging and something needs to change.

 

Used incorrectly the same "bullying" if you will hasn't changed. Players will still be removed from the group. The only difference is someone has numbers to throw in your face. Used correctly the group can actually offer suggestions and constructively work out a solution to defeat the encounter.

[KiranK]

So you just gave up trying to prove that you're not an elitist e-bully, then?

 

You're under the impression I need a DPS log to be an elitist bully. I don't. That's whole the point. DPS logs don't make people elitists bullies. They already are. You can't fix people. Bioware needs to stop trying to fix what can't be changed and just give us the tools we want to raid.

[Shlamorel]

At first I didn't want raid-wide meters. After having a hard time figuring out where our DPS problems lie, I have become less against it.

 

However, I plan on waiting to see how the individual DPS meters work. If everyone in our raid is honest with how much DPS they are doing, we may not need to ask for raid wide meters. If people are lying though (inflating their DPS) and we are still having trouble killing nightmare bosses, I may be joining the camp that's asking for raid-wide meters.

 

Until then, I'll see how the solo meters work out.

[pureeffinmetal]

You're under the impression I need a DPS log to be an elitist bully. I don't. That's whole the point. DPS logs don't make people elitists bullies. They already are. You can't fix people. Bioware needs to stop trying to fix what can't be changed and just give us the tools we want to raid.

 

 

As insulting as this might be to some players its also true.

[Wugan]

At first I didn't want raid-wide meters. After having a hard time figuring out where our DPS problems lie, I have become less against it.

 

However, I plan on waiting to see how the individual DPS meters work. If everyone in our raid is honest with how much DPS they are doing, we may not need to ask for raid wide meters. If people are lying though (inflating their DPS) and we are still having trouble killing nightmare bosses, I may be joining the camp that's asking for raid-wide meters.

 

Until then, I'll see how the solo meters work out.

 

That's a good point. A lot of content so far has not really required detailed group analysis. After obtaining a baseline amount of gear, most fights in Tier 1 have enrages or DPS checks that are fairly easy to hit for most groups.

 

Based on our PTS testing, however, the enrage timer is going to be pretty important as we first work through Explosive Conflict, at least on Hard and Nightmare. Personally I would love to see more varied mechanics separating hard from story, and nightmare from hard, but right now that seems to be the main difference from story to hard on most fights.

[krinaman]

Even without logs its fairly easy to tell who isn't pulling their weight. This is slightly more difficult in a 16 man but becomes much easier in 8 and is very clear cut in 4 man groups.

 

I agree completely. So why do we need group logs again?

[pureeffinmetal]

I agree completely. So why do we need group logs again?

 

 

Way to selectively quote and ignore much of the rest of what I posted.

 

Logs help people improve. I said its easy to tell who isn't pulling their weight, but its not easy to tell them how to improve. Or even if they are pulling their weight how they can improve further and maximize their game play.

[Shlamorel]

That's a good point. A lot of content so far has not really required detailed group analysis. After obtaining a baseline amount of gear, most fights in Tier 1 have enrages or DPS checks that are fairly easy to hit for most groups.

 

Based on our PTS testing, however, the enrage timer is going to be pretty important as we first work through Explosive Conflict, at least on Hard and Nightmare. Personally I would love to see more varied mechanics separating hard from story, and nightmare from hard, but right now that seems to be the main difference from story to hard on most fights.

 

I agree - I am looking for more differentiation between Story/Hard/Nightmare. I hope 1.2 delivers. If not, I hope it is brought in for a future patch.

[Freor]

So the current logs don't show others in your group? That kinda sucks, according to an interview with one of the devs not too long ago he stated that you will be able to see other peoples logs. Did they change their mind then...

[Vid-szhite]

If griefing is such a problem, make the raid-wide logs available ONLY to the Ops Leader and/or Ops Lieutenants. Let him or her choose to release the log as necessary. It's how the community does things in WoW right now because the meters do cause mass derping. Many WoW guilds will outright kick you for having DPS meters nowadays, but they are so useful that the raid leader has to have it to see what's going on. This is the best compromise we could have - not everyone will be able to see the entire group's performance, so there's little risk of belittlement or epeen racing, but the people who need it will have it.

 

 

 

Anyone who is afraid of being excluded due to parsers is either paranoid or knows they're a bad player and are afraid to have a device that shows everyone.

Edited April 2, 2012 by Vid-szhite

[suduire]

I agree completely. So why do we need group logs again?

 

The main reason why any MMO raid or group needs everyones' combat logs is to break down the mechanics of the fight. In the current state the mechanics of all the raid content and instances is trivial at best. I assume, and hope, as the game progresses, the content will become more challenging. At that point it will be beneficial to understand how the damage is incoming to the raid over time and develop strategies to mitigate it. Further, combat logs can be used to help others and the raids performance. Instant access to the logs will cut down on wipes.

 

The argument for not doing so to "protect" the under skilled players from being judged does not hold water. They are implementing Ranked WZ. Yes you do not need to participate in ranked matches if you do not want to be judged, but you can also not run Ops if you do not want to be judged.

 

It is easy to judge players and sort out the weak links. Watch someone's health power management, position, cast bar. Those attributes of play will reveals 90% of the story. If you do not want to be judge why are you playing a MMO. Of course someone is going to judge you in a game, this isn't Tball. Dont play with anyone who might judge you, or play a single player, or better yet listen to Adam corolla rant about why everyone cannot be MVPs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJD8pZiRIzs

 

As long as this is a game, there will be elitist judging people. People are always blaming each other in WZs already. Might as well give everyone tools to make sure they have the right facts.

[xsmspiffs]

There are a variety of problems which are stemming from Bioware choosing to protect unskilled players at the expense of skilled players. This problem with logs is just one example of the absurdity of the assumptions unpinning these decisions.

 

That attitude is why you can't have nice things.

[RickRedOne]

So the current logs don't show others in your group? That kinda sucks, according to an interview with one of the devs not too long ago he stated that you will be able to see other peoples logs. Did they change their mind then...

 

Don't know where you saw that, but everything I have read has always stated that they would be "your data" only.

[Gaktar]

Don't know where you saw that, but everything I have read has always stated that they would be "your data" only.

 

They were always effectively vague enough that you could read into their words whatever you wanted to. That keeps people happy most of the time and gives them flexibility to make any adjustments.

[voidheart]

I think Bioware should give us raidwide combatlogs. With 3 difficult operations pugs will go story mode or hard mode and i assume those are not that hard they can finnish the ops easily and if a boss dies everyone is happy.

 

If you go with your guild to do nightmare you can improve your dps/heal and you just getting better.

 

I vote for public combat logs, or else SW:TOR's playerbase shall not evolve. I dont wanna be dumb

[Freor]

Don't know where you saw that, but everything I have read has always stated that they would be "your data" only.

 

http://swtorhub.com/dash-everything-swtor-12-interview-james-ohlen (look at the bottom, at end of interview)

 

I don't know how any more clear they could be. So something must have changed then :/

Edited April 2, 2012 by Freor

[Menthro]

While I am completely and utterly in favor of a raid wide log I will still admit they do cause bullying and elitism. When I first started raiding many years ago, I couldn't DPS on my toon worth a damn, but I got lucky that my raid leader and guildies were nice enough to teach me how to play. I have seen the opposite way to many times for my liking. A new player joins up, doesn't quite have a handle on his class and he has no way to hide it until he learns. He gets ridiculed then kicked.

 

I've also seen a raid wide log create friendly riverlries between people. Hell it started one between me and my father. In that situation it pushes both people to do there best and beat the other guy. But again, the exact opposite has occurred to many times.

 

unfortunetly, there is no way to comprise or build a logging/parseing system without getting both ends of the spectrum. And again unfortunetly, when content begins to evolve logs will be needed more and more.

 

The only thing we can do is to strive to create the first situation each and every time. If someone is struggling, don't make fun of them, help them. If your DPS is ungodly high, don't rub it in everyone's face.

 

Possibly the only compromise that I have actually seen here that would make sense is to only give raid wide logs to the raid leader. And that suggestion was pretty much ignored.

Edited April 2, 2012 by Menthro

[Shingara]

Now if this were 'we need guild wide raid logs' i could understand this, but its not so please someone state to me why we need public wide logs ? Edited April 2, 2012 by Shingara

[Gaktar]

Now if this were 'we need guild wide raid logs' i could understand this, but its not so please someone state to me why we need public wide logs ?

 

- Raid alliances

- Evaluating potential recruits before inviting them to guild

- PvP with teammates not in your guild

- No drama evaluation of PUG operation/flashpoint encounters that you are having problems with and want to figure out what to adjust (notice I didn't say kick, it's more strats, assignments, targeting, positioning,...)

Edited April 2, 2012 by Gaktar

[Shingara]

- Raid alliances

- Evaluating potential recruits before inviting them to guild

- PvP with teammates not in your guild

- No drama evaluation of PUG operation/flashpoint encounters that you are having problems with and want to figure out what to adjust (notice I didn't say kick, it's more strats, assignments, targeting, positioning,...)

 

- why would you require a raid alliance for a maximum size operation of 16 people

- this is what trials are for

- why would you need meters for pvp ???????

- PUGs is a totally different gamepark to what top end operations would require with no vested interest in long term goals.

Edited April 2, 2012 by Shingara

[Timadan]

Add ons, meters, etc all dumb down content. The content in this game is not all that challenging now please don't ezmode the game further!

[Gaktar]

- why would you require a raid alliance for a maximum size operation of 16 people

- this is what trials are for

- why would you need dps meters for pvp ???????

- PUGs is a totally different gamepark to what top end operations would require with no vested interest in long term goals.

 

- Ask the several raid alliances I met at the guild summit why they exist?

- Guild tags are very important to some guilds

- You must not have looked at the logs, they contain a LOT more information than just dps

- Content is challenging based on gear and experience. Don't discount the challenges that PUGs have with some of the content or their desire to push their own boundries

 

If you are just going to dismiss any answers then you really shouldn't ask the questions.

Edited April 2, 2012 by Gaktar

[Shingara]

- Ask the several raid alliances I met at the guild summit why they exist?

- Guild tags are very important to some guilds

- You must not have looked at the logs, they contain a LOT more information than just dps

- Content is challenging based on gear and experience. Don't discount the challenges that PUGs have with some of the content or their desire to push their own boundries

 

If you are just going to dismiss any answers then you really shouldn't ask the questions.

 

- why would i need to ask some guilds at a guild summit why they couldnt front the maximum number of 16 to a raid ???

- prestige is no reason to not put people into the guild on a trial basis

- any and all info required from a pvp match is shown at the end of a pvp match

- again pugs are no where near the same league as a running guild, no vested interest in future advancment which can be attained from within a guild which is what guilds are designed for.

 

to the last statement you make, if i find it easy to dismiss an answer you give then there is a very good reason for it, its very easy to dismiss as a valid point.

Edited April 2, 2012 by Shingara

[Ikoni]

INTRO

 

This is obviously a touchy subject for a lot of people because of negative experiences from other MMOs. Almost every point brought up against more global combat logs revolve around players judging other players on performance. While this already happens when you pug operations, its clear that there is the potential for this to increase. So we know that the potential is there and I think it is pretty clear that people will act how they will act regardless of what tools they are or are not given.

 

COMMUNITY

 

Having been (well still being) a "hardcore" raider in WoW, there is a remarkable difference between the SWTOR and WoW communities. I've done a lot of quests, flashpoints, and operations in pugs on two different servers on both factions. By far, the most noticeable difference between the two MMOs is that people are generally more mature in SWTOR and much more willing to help each other. Also, in general people are much more receptive to advice and discussions on classes because the game is still relatively new.

 

COMBAT LOGS (1.2 version) - What do we gain?

 

First of all, getting combat logs of any kind is a huge help. Being able to see what killed you in a fight is something that was definitely much needed. Being able to parse the data to understand how you do is great, but your own data by itself isn't particularly helpful because you (and me) are probably not perfect players by any means. So this is where the community would go out and aggregate data and build tools to analyze and compare across a wider range of willing players.

 

COMBAT LOGS (1.2 version) - What do we NOT get?

 

So far, we can stitch together everyone's logs together to try to put together a full log. However, it really isn't a full log. Why not? Because each person's log only tells them what happens to them or what they did to another target. Having done a few of the ops on the PTS, no one will have a line in their logs that says if Zorn's baradium throw hit Toth to neutralize his frenzy. While this is just one example, you could imagine that any type of operation encounter with meaningful interaction between non player targets would be completely lost. This really gives you an incomplete view of what's going on, even if you stitch together everyone's logs.

 

RANDOM THOUGHTS

 

While there are a lot of negative possibilities with global combat logs, there are a lot of positives as well. I know that personally having raided in WoW extensively, being able to look through logs to draw comparisons with people playing the same class as myself in the raid is extremely helpful. Since your fellow raider is generally having the same things to run in and out of, they provide a great benchmark for comparison. Again, you can read that as "I want to tell people they suck" or you can read it as "I want to make sure I'm doing the best I can". Both schools of thought will occur, but having global logs isn't going to change that mentality. I'm sure everyone has had some negative experiences pugging flashpoints or ops where someone just says "you're so bad". That won't change with an ops wide combat log, they'll just also spam you a meter in addition. But at the same time, some people have had great experiences where they were struggling with a mechanic or output issue and they were helped along. With an ops wide combat log, you could actually identify specific things to do more or less of to help a struggling ops member. Again, combat logs don't really change how these scenarios play out. Having meters spammed to show off I failed is a pretty bad experience, but if someone could actually see what I was doing wrong and help me fix it... that's a really positive experience.

 

EDIT: PS. Wall of text crits you for 99999 (99998 overkill).

Edited April 2, 2012 by Ikoni

[Freor]

- again pugs are no where near the same league as a running guild, no vested interest in future advancment which can be attained from within a guild which is what guilds are designed for.

 

So don't raid with PUGs. Just because they work with different principles is no reason to not allow them to use/get logs. Hell, giving them access to this feature would make the runs better for everyone, since people would be judged based on what/how they actually do, not how their gear looks like (which is all you can base your non-objective observations atm).

 

Same with any raid really, be it pug/guild/friends. Logging makes it possible to see how you do compared to others, if there are people lagging for whatever reason and so on. It's also kinda hilarious how many people demand various loot-rules feeling they are entitled to particular gear, yet when it comes to actually earning it by contributing to the group... allowing others to see/verify that becomes the mother of all evul

 

It doesn't serve anyone's interest to hide how people are doing in their group. Giving non-objective way to verify that instead of checking gear or basing things on "how it looks like" is way better.