Jandi Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 I finished both sides, the imp side 3 times now on different base classes and I don't get it. On the Imp side, you are winning on multiple fronts yet, after Corellia on republic side, the Empire is supposedly scattering and losing ground? So what's going on with the war? Is it over already? Did I miss something important? I know all about the Voices and children, as I've done Consular, Inquisitor and Warrior but the Dark Council is still strong and the Wrath is just getting started now that they are finally recognized by the council. Malgus failed, miserably, with the stealth fleet destroyed. So, what's the situation, overall? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaintSticks Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 Full on war basically. I dont think either side is winning at the end, it just leaves it open for you. Also Doesn't Malgas try and make his own empire? And you ahve to fight him? If you do the PVP planet they have quests showing all that stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarog Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 (edited) The storytelling between classes and, especially, between factions is a bit scattered. As far as the war goes, it seems like the Empire is losing in practically every theatre of war... which is a far cry from the string of "absolute" victories that you experience from the empire perspective. From what I've been able to gather of the war story in the planets we've visited so far... Republic gets the canonical victory in Balmorra, Alderaan and Corellia (there might be fighting going on still, as in Corellia, but the victories that empire players bring about on these planets are undone either during the republic quests or off screen). Empire gets the canonical victory on Taris. I've no idea about the more minor conflict, like Quesh. So basically, the Empire has suffered more defeats at the recommencement of the war than they did during the actual war. It seems like half the dark council is dead, our faction "champion" who was in all the promotional art and trailers and who was built up as our most respectable faction hero has been flushed down the toilet, our greatest tacticians and military officers (Kilran and Rakton) are out of the picture, the Emperor is either dead or (more likely) displaced to another body and out of the picture for the immediate future, and all our triumphant early conquests are reduced to failures in a very short span of time. Whereas what we accomplish... err, we prevent the Republic from gaining a symbolic victory on Taris. I'm starting to wonder if devoting resources to that petty misadventure was ill-advised, since the effort could have been better spent on preventing the Republic from gaining *actual* victories virtually everywhere else. And we kill some jedi masters, and get the old Supreme Chancellor out of office in favour of a new, more competent one. I think Bioware made a mistake in having the faction story lines tell such different versions of events. Playing to 50 on Empire gives a very strong impression that we are winning the renewed war in a very dramatic fashion, whereas the opposite is true. The different faction narratives should tell the same events from different perspectives, so that everyone knows where things stand without having to go level the other faction or do research out of game. The war so far does seem to be a very one-sided affair, which is disappointing. I don't object to my faction losing - we all knew that the Empire's utter defeat was inevitable when we started playing - but it is better story telling to have the start of a war involve more nuanced gains and losses. Having the eventual victors dominating from day one kills tension and ruins the credibility of the Empire as a serious threat. Obviously the game is going to last for years to come, so I'm curious to see how Bioware digs the Empire out of the grave that they put it in. Edited April 1, 2012 by Sarog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jandi Posted April 1, 2012 Author Share Posted April 1, 2012 Further thoughts, heavy spoilers. Yes, it's obvious from playing the Consular to 50 that the Empire loses on nearly every planet, gets their teeth kicked in when Malgus gets uppity by losing the stealth armada and many of the council are just killed off. While the imps hold many worlds still on the outer and mid rim (presumably) they utterly failed in their push to the core. However, one thing bothers me. The supreme chancellor kinda rose out of nowhere, she was the colony leader in Taris and all of the sudden she's the supreme chancellor? Perhaps an emperors puppet or the new body for him, this is purely speculation though as there is nothing to back it up, I just find it odd. Regardless, I sincerely hope they have a good explanation when/if the Empire pulls itself together after a string of disasters. If it's yet another "uber powerful thingy from thin air" I'm gonna be disappointed. I have a bad feeling though that they will end the war rather soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaisernick Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 I think Bioware made a mistake in having the faction story lines tell such different versions of events. Playing to 50 on Empire gives a very strong impression that we are winning the renewed war in a very dramatic fashion, whereas the opposite is true. The different faction narratives should tell the same events from different perspectives, so that everyone knows where things stand without having to go level the other faction or do research out of game. you could look at world war 2 im sure Hitler told his people they were winning even when the allies were right on Germany's doorstep. t like to look at it as the empire takes taris the republic takes back balmoria then the empire takes corellia and is then beaten in a counter attack by the republic. as for the empire remember that you could consider this game to be the equivalent to a new hope, the republic has gained key victory’s but the next exp could change all that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darthkargtor Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 The reason the republic is winning is because the empire relies upon humans to much this is why malgus left the empire as he relised that the empire wouldn't win as long as it remained the way it did. this was proven by the empire losting 1/3 of its entire army fighting on correllia because the higher ups don't care about there men but still wont use aliens as cannon fodder as shown by the Hoth bonus series where the general sacrifices thousands of men to wipe out a hand full of elite special forces., where as the republic has millions upon millions of more men than the empire because of all the alien races signing up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarog Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 you could look at world war 2 im sure Hitler told his people they were winning even when the allies were right on Germany's doorstep. It isn't an issue of propaganda in-universe. It is a writing issue, where Bioware shows imperial players that we are winning, but then tells us that we are losing. Good storytelling doesn't just pull the rug out from under you. If the empire goes from winning to losing, we should experience it in game as part of the game's narrative rather than have to find out about it outside of our play experience. It also means that Bioware is a bit of an untrustworthy narrator, which, when it isn't an intentional device, just encourages less immersion. as for the empire remember that you could consider this game to be the equivalent to a new hope, the republic has gained key victory’s but the next exp could change all that Absolutely, and that will probably happen, but the set up for it is still terrible. Bioware is going to have to do some insane plot-gymnastics to pull the Empire out of the grave and get it back to the place where it is a serious, credible threat again. I'm very curious to see how they do it. Let's hope it doesn't rely on macguffins, deus ex machina, space magic, or rule of cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forgon Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 The problem is we don't have a concise timeline where it is clear what happens when. The way I see it, we were winning. However, the planets we make successful campaigns on and are heralded as "heroes" of those planets gets undone because of the Republic storylines that have counter-attacks by their heroes. Flashpoint wise, we undo the Republic's efforts to free Revan by defeating him and based on the SI storyline, we definitely don't have the most complete Dark Council. We take out the Supreme Chancellor but a new one is elected who is apparently more competent then him. We lose our Emperor because of the Jedi Knight and Darth Jadus because of the Agent, as well as many of the Sith and Dark Council members we see on our side because of Republic class stories or world arcs. Basically, we are starting the war and we are clearly told we are on hard times based on how the Moffs act and comment on the new situations after the war starts. It is made pretty clear during Malgus's rebellion that the Moffs and other authority figures recognize the fact the Empire is already on the losing end since the Emperor went silent. The Republic likes to say that the Empire is always on the verge of destroying us but that is clearly not true based on our storyline and the Republic is So I conclude that the Empire is prepared to make their counter-attack and strike back at the Republic and they are confident in turning the tides of the war because of the famous and powerful individuals they have (namely the four classes). As a result, we should wait until we get more story. It should be interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranadiel_Marius Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 To get a full understanding of the war you have to play both sides and really pay attention. Overall, I don't think that the war is quite the curbstomp that either side likes to present to its people. Here is a more detailed analysis on a planet by planet basis from my experience playing all the force classes to 50. Starter Worlds and Capitol Worlds: Not going to bother with any analysis on these since they are one sided for the most part. Taris: Republic manages to start rebuilding before getting stomped out by the Empire in the early stages of the war. More than just a morale loss since it would have been a base of operations within Imperial territory. Nar Shaddaa: I know that both sides have quests where they interfere with the other's operations here, but I don't think either of them were completely crippling, so both sides probably still do buisness here with some diminished capacity. Tatooine: Same as Nar Shaddaa. Alderaan: I know that the common view is that the Republic wins here, but from having played through it a few times I am inclined to believe that Thul was the side that captured Bouris and that either the war is still ravaging on or it is at a temporary break while peace talks go on. Either way the victor has yet to be determined. Likely to have future expansion content. Balmorra: Empire crushed the resistance and then the Republic revitalized it during the early stages of the war. Republic victory in the end resulting in a significant increase in droid troops. Quesh: I believe the Empire managed to mostly stomp out the Three Families gaining the upper hand before Republic forces turned the tide around. Republic certainly prevented a total loss, but I don't know how much of the Empire's knowledge of Adrenal production was erased, so could potentially still be a small victory for the Empire. Hoth: Victory for both sides here. Republic finds what they are looking for and the Empire managed to force the Republic to waste a lot of troops in the process. Belsavis: Total Imperial victory. Empire suceeds in their primary ojective of releasing the Dread Masters and who knows what else. If future patch leaks/datamines are to be believed then the Dread Masters might not particularly help the Empire, but it is still an overall victory. Voss: This one is a bit more nebulous, but I am inclined to believe it is a wash for both sides. Voss stay out of the fight other than the Jedi Consular's contigent of Commandos and Mystics. Corellia: Empire intiially manages to take control of Corellia before being driven back by Republic forces losing three Dark Council members in the process. Exact timeline of how long Imperials were in conrol is unclear. Quite possibly the biggest loss for the Empire and definatly the reason they are seen as losing the war. Then again it was a strategically stupid move at this point in the war so hardly surprising. Illum: Haven't played the Imperial version yet, so I don't have a lot to say. Although I have a feeling the order of storylines here is Imperial then Republic. I'd put the overall status of the war as the Republic is winning, but it is hardly a total route at the moment. Both sides have potentially had their leadership structure completely messed up. I think 75% of the Dark Council is either dead or at least can be killed. Sam goes for the Jedi Council. The Emperor has gone silent as he recovers. The Supreme Councillor was recentely either murdered or resigned due to a political scandal causing a change of power. Both sides have had their victories big and small. Both sides need to reorganize following their command shake up, but both sides are also riding high on the belief that they have the momentum in the war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pubsam Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 (edited) It isn't an issue of propaganda in-universe. It is a writing issue, where Bioware shows imperial players that we are winning, but then tells us that we are losing. Good storytelling doesn't just pull the rug out from under you. If the empire goes from winning to losing, we should experience it in game as part of the game's narrative rather than have to find out about it outside of our play experience. It also means that Bioware is a bit of an untrustworthy narrator, which, when it isn't an intentional device, just encourages less immersion. I agree that the lack of updates from the worlds an Empire player helps conquer is odd, for example while you're on Taris you should hear that the Republic has aided the resistance in retaking Balmorra. But that leaves a big problem if you even want to go back to Balmorra. It would be cool if both returning Empire and Republic players could return to a changed Balmorra - Republic would fly into Sobrik, and Empire into some makeshift base, but what if you wanted to go back to Balmorra to help a friend with heroic quests or something? All questing Empire players would be cut off from playing with anybody who's levelled past the planet. Edited April 1, 2012 by Pubsam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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