Incentivise Non-Crafted Customizable Gear

[Sathavong]

On one hand, Bioware likes to sing about giving the player options to customize their attire, but having craftable oranges proc augment slots seems like a step in the wrong direction. There are already plenty of Orange sets from Social levels, flight missions, collector's edition, etc. Will there ever be any incentive to use these?

 

Not having orange augments at all seems like a better option. I'd be able to use any customizable set of gear I want without being forced into crafted gear to maintain best in slot. Not everyone cares for the look of crafted oranges.

 

Either that or I should be able to have the appropriate crafter install an augment slot into my gear (i.e. get a synthweaver to add an augment slot to my slave outfit)

[fadingdimension]

From the most recent Q&A:

 

Exaro - Will crit crafted orange gear with the tier 4 mods in it and an additional augment be required to get the best possible stats or will the stand alone purple tier 4 be just as good?

 

David Hunt: Augments are required for the highest possible stats, but augmented gear is not required for any existing content. A fully augmented set of endgame gear will put you above the stat curve.

 

Basically Bioware seems to be really naive.

 

It seems like they think players will forgo getting augmented BiS gear in favor of wearing what they think looks nice.

 

This won't happen, Bioware. In fact it will be looked down upon. If someone isn't using augmented gear they will be gimping themselves, period. Any remotely serious guild will require players to have full augmented sets to raid. Any sort of remotely competitive pvp team will require augmented sets.

 

I've been playing MMO's for a decade now. Players will always do whatever produces the most stats and the best results regardless of personal enjoyment. Players will play the absolute most boring specs if they produce better results. They will wear gear they hate because it has the best stats.

 

Unfortunately Bioware will most likely see people running around in low level augmented armor and say "Oh Hey! They must like that armor!". No they don't like it but it's essentially required.

 

You will be able to attempt reverse engineering your t4 armor if you like it. But the cost of mats and random RNG will be too punishing for most players to bother with since wearing a set of low level augmented armor provides the same stats. This is assuming they even have the appropriate crafting skill. Since the tier items are BoP you can't trade to a friend for them to learn. This is all just for the "cosmetic" look. This doesn't encourage players to customize their armor because frankly it's a pain.

 

Customizing your armor should be the easy part. If I obtain my teir 4 after much work I should be able to equip it and look the way I want to look. Instead this system encourages you to immediately rip the mods out and put them into some low level augmented armor that you may not even like.

 

How is this promoting choice and customization?

 

I want crafters to have a reason and incentive to be crafters but this is far from the best solution.

Edited April 1, 2012 by fadingdimension

[fadingdimension]

Why did this get moved from the PTS forum? OP and I are addressing the 1.2 PTS changes. Edited April 1, 2012 by fadingdimension

[Oompaw]

There are currently over 50 three-piece craftable armor sets available in the live game right now, which will all be able to crit augment slots in 1.2. They have already stated that some other gear looks will added as schematics that drop from various mission crew skills.

 

So while I agree that social gear should be able to have augments added (which they are going to add sometime AFTER 1.2), I do think I can find something within those 50+ armor sets that works for me visually during the interim.

 

Take a look at this awesome thread: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=320129

 

Everything you see there is in the live game already, made with synthweaving, and everything you see there gains an augment slot on crit. (The same is true of Armormech, I just haven't found a good link to preview those armor sets.

 

I'd call that a pretty big step in the right direction towards customizing the look of your gear while still having the very best stats available to you.

[fadingdimension]

There are currently over 50 three-piece craftable armor sets available in the live game right now, which will all be able to crit augment slots in 1.2. They have already stated that some other gear looks will added as schematics that drop from various mission crew skills.

 

So while I agree that social gear should be able to have augments added (which they are going to add sometime AFTER 1.2), I do think I can find something within those 50+ armor sets that works for me visually during the interim.

 

Take a look at this awesome thread: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=320129

 

Everything you see there is in the live game already, made with synthweaving, and everything you see there gains an augment slot on crit. (The same is true of Armormech, I just haven't found a good link to preview those armor sets.

 

I'd call that a pretty big step in the right direction towards customizing the look of your gear while still having the very best stats available to you.

 

While yes that's a decent selection you should be able to wear any look you want. Also 50 sets? Yeah for all the classes combined. Your character isn't going to have 50 sets to choose from. Probably 10 that are reasonably obtainable.

 

Again. This is still basically forcing you to look at a few sets of gear for augmenting. Any sort of high level raid armor will be extremely frustrating and annoying to obtain, research, and then crit. If you have the item already, you should be able to wear it. Not rip it apart and hope you can crit it so you can actually wear something you like and not be gimped.

 

Like I said there's way easier ways to let people customize. Look at basically every other modern MMO. They all have way easier and intuitive systems than this. Bioware doesn't have to reinvent the wheel.

[murshawursha]

Maybe you guys should have read that Community Q&A a little bit more carefully. From the second-to-last paragraph:

 

We have also heard at the Guild Summit and through community feedback on the Forums that many players have built up a significant stack of custom appearances for future use in their cargo holds and would really like to upgrade these with an augment slot to make them fully competitive as end game gear. We absolutely support this and will be introducing the ability to do so in a future Game Update.

 

So there you go. They're adding the ability to add an augment slot to existing gear later on.

[Akella]

I understand what you're saying. Like the look of your new Ops gear in 1.2? To bad, you have to buy or craft some orange piece with an augment slot. It just seems it would have been a better idea to be able to buy a crafted piece that attaches to your gear so you can attach the augment. Synthweavers and Armormechs will be making those augments in 1.2 so they won't be out anything. But now I feel like we are going to be required to have those crafted critted pieces to keep raid slots. Not unlike how people claimed raid leaders were requiring biochem to get raid slots.

 

Additionally, maybe this is a way to cut corners on end game gear designs. Knowing people are going to have to buy the critted/crafted pieces in order to have bis and the end game pieces are basically throw away mod holders.

 

 

EDIT: Thank you Murshawursha for the quote. It appears there will eventually be a way to add augments to any gear piece you like, crafted or otherwise. I just hope it happens sooner rather than later.

Edited April 1, 2012 by Akella

[Spilltray]

It's still a better solution than right now, basically being locked into 1 set for appearance. So for the short term, you are limited to crit crafted sets, which lower level ones will be more common, but eventually since they are planning on introducing an option to add augment slots to current gear, you will have the flexibility to use any moddable sets.

 

As far as having multiple options, I played WoW for years and you were always locked into the current raid tier sets unless you wanted to gimp your stats. Even in the 1.2 plan, you will have a fairly decent variety of options for appearance, and once they add the ability to add in augment slots and craft orange gear with raid appearances, you will have an ever growing set of options for appearances.

 

So wah, its going to be something of a credit sink. Raiding has ALWAYS been a credit sink in every game. Big deal. At least you get customization options this way.

[fadingdimension]

Maybe you guys should have read that Community Q&A a little bit more carefully. From the second-to-last paragraph:

 

 

 

So there you go. They're adding the ability to add an augment slot to existing gear later on.

 

Point is they don't even have to do this. Just separate crew skills and customizing your look. Why do we have to rip apart armor and then rng craft over and over until we proc a piece just so we can wear the peice of armor we already owned.

 

Just let us put on a peice of armor a boss just dropped without gimping ourselves. Thats all I'm saying. With this system if a chest peice drops off a boss in basically every situation the person obtaining it will immediately rip the mods out of the item. This is a silly design!

[murshawursha]

Point is they don't even have to do this. Just separate crew skills and customizing your look. Why do we have to rip apart armor and then rng craft over and over until we proc a piece just so we can wear the peice of armor we already owned.

 

Just let us put on a peice of armor a boss just dropped without gimping ourselves. Thats all I'm saying. With this system if a chest peice drops off a boss in basically every situation the person obtaining it will immediately rip the mods out of the item. This is a silly design!

 

The point is in the future you won't HAVE to RNG craft to get an augment slot. And for now, well, frankly I'll be ripping the mods out of my raid gear regardless.

 

I also think a big driving force behind these changes is that Bioware wants to give crafters a larger roll in the game and economy. A good way to do that is by allowing them to craft augmented gear or add augments to other gear, making them an integral part of acquiring the best gear. Personally, I wholeheartedly support this notion.

[fadingdimension]

I also think a big driving force behind these changes is that Bioware wants to give crafters a larger roll in the game and economy. A good way to do that is by allowing them to craft augmented gear or add augments to other gear, making them an integral part of acquiring the best gear. Personally, I wholeheartedly support this notion.

 

I want crafting to matter too. But allow them to craft armor that is desirable stat wise. Not make them the fashion designers of the galaxy. Essentially they will be creating "looks". Not powerful armor. They will create shells that you shove mods into.

 

Or if augmented gear is going to become baseline then just make all gear have augment slots. Crafters can they make alternative looks that are exclusive to them and stat augments for people to place into armor. This will give them essentially the same thing but allow bosses and pvp to drop armor than is worth equipping immediately.

[fadingdimension]

The point is in the future you won't HAVE to RNG craft to get an augment slot.

 

That quote simply says you'll be able to add an augment slot to more existing custom armor. It doesn't say crit crafting and reverse engineering will not be required. All I would read from that is "Yeah you will be able to RE and crit craft more armor in the future"

Edited April 1, 2012 by fadingdimension

[murshawursha]

That quote simply says you'll be able to add an augment slot to more existing custom armor. It doesn't say crit crafting and reverse engineering will not be required. All I would read from that is "Yeah you will be able to RE and crit craft more armor in the future"

 

I disagree with your interpretation of the dev quote. To me, it says that you will be able to take an already-existing piece of gear and add an augment slot. But whatevs.

[Sowwy]

Maybe you guys should have read that Community Q&A a little bit more carefully. From the second-to-last paragraph:

 

 

 

So there you go. They're adding the ability to add an augment slot to existing gear later on.

 

What concerns me is "later" is their mantra. Meanwhile there is currently 39 people on fleet and 20 mins queues as of this posting - 7:30pm Saturday.

 

I want this game to succeed, but odd decisions like promising customizable gear, then limiting the gear that's both optimal and customizable is frankly, baffling. And when people have asked me about swtor, I echoe that statement. I told them that it has fantastic potential but I wonder about their development team.

 

This gear system is one of a few things they do that drives my negative impression, not of the game but the people steering its direction.

Edited April 1, 2012 by Sowwy

[murshawursha]

This gear system is one of a few things they do that drives my negative impression, not of the game but the people steering its direction.

 

I find it infinitely preferable to running around in that ugly-as-sin Tionese/Columi/Rakata gear.

 

I dunno. I'm pretty sure if you're in a guild full of people you're actually friends with/like, they're not going to force augmented gear on you. If your guild DOES do that, well, I'd find another guild.

[Sowwy]

I find it infinitely preferable to running around in that ugly-as-sin Tionese/Columi/Rakata gear.

 

I dunno. I'm pretty sure if you're in a guild full of people you're actually friends with/like, they're not going to force augmented gear on you. If your guild DOES do that, well, I'd find another guild.

 

 

Good for your stance of what guilds should and should not do.

 

That however fails to address the core issue.

 

Their design decisions are illogical.

[murshawursha]

Good for your stance of what guilds should and should not do.

 

That however fails to address the core issue.

 

Their design decisions are illogical.

 

How is it illogical? Basically since launch, people have been complaining that endgame gear is ugly and they want to be able to wear whatever looks cool. So Bioware is giving us the ability to mod orange gear to endgame status so we don't have to wear ugly gear anymore, and now we're finding reasons to whine about that.

[Sowwy]

From the most recent Q&A:

 

Exaro - Will crit crafted orange gear with the tier 4 mods in it and an additional augment be required to get the best possible stats or will the stand alone purple tier 4 be just as good?

 

David Hunt: Augments are required for the highest possible stats, but augmented gear is not required for any existing content. A fully augmented set of endgame gear will put you above the stat curve.

 

Basically Bioware seems to be really naive.

 

It seems like they think players will forgo getting augmented BiS gear in favor of wearing what they think looks nice.

 

This won't happen, Bioware. In fact it will be looked down upon. If someone isn't using augmented gear they will be gimping themselves, period. Any remotely serious guild will require players to have full augmented sets to raid. Any sort of remotely competitive pvp team will require augmented sets.

 

I've been playing MMO's for a decade now. Players will always do whatever produces the most stats and the best results regardless of personal enjoyment. Players will play the absolute most boring specs if they produce better results. They will wear gear they hate because it has the best stats.

 

Unfortunately Bioware will most likely see people running around in low level augmented armor and say "Oh Hey! They must like that armor!". No they don't like it but it's essentially required.

 

You will be able to attempt reverse engineering your t4 armor if you like it. But the cost of mats and random RNG will be too punishing for most players to bother with since wearing a set of low level augmented armor provides the same stats. This is assuming they even have the appropriate crafting skill. Since the tier items are BoP you can't trade to a friend for them to learn. This is all just for the "cosmetic" look. This doesn't encourage players to customize their armor because frankly it's a pain.

 

Customizing your armor should be the easy part. If I obtain my teir 4 after much work I should be able to equip it and look the way I want to look. Instead this system encourages you to immediately rip the mods out and put them into some low level augmented armor that you may not even like.

 

How is this promoting choice and customization?

 

I want crafters to have a reason and incentive to be crafters but this is far from the best solution.

 

 

I think this is said pretty well. The whole idea is counter-intuitive and makes one scratch their head in disbelief. Anyone who has been around MMOs for any length of time can predict how this system is going to end up. It wont be promoting customization, thats for sure. This isn't merely whining, there's a real problem that we want to bring attention to. Because frankly, it seems to have an easy solution.

Edited April 1, 2012 by Sowwy

[fadingdimension]

How is it illogical? Basically since launch, people have been complaining that endgame gear is ugly and they want to be able to wear whatever looks cool. So Bioware is giving us the ability to mod orange gear to endgame status so we don't have to wear ugly gear anymore, and now we're finding reasons to whine about that.

 

Customization is great. I don't think anyone is arguing that. You may like this system and that's fine. But if people think it's lacking or that something else would be better they should voice their suggestions and opinions. I'm sure Bioware doesn't want it's fans to settle for something they don't really think is 100%.

 

I don't think anyone is "whining" it's just criticism and constructive feedback that Bioware asks for.

[murshawursha]

I think this is said pretty well. The whole idea is counter-intuitive and makes one scratch their head in disbelief. Anyone who has been around MMOs for any length of time can predict how this system is going to end up. It wont be promoting customization, thats for sure. This isn't merely whining, there's a real problem that we want to bring attention to. Because frankly, it seems to have an easy solution.

 

As it stands, you can move raid gear stats to any orange armor in the game to get equivalent (or better, with an augment slot) states + set bonus. On the flip side, in the future they will be adding the ability to add augment slots to existing gear, so you're not going to be missing out on that if you happen to like the raid gear. I'm not seeing the problem here.

 

I've already stated my opinion on guilds forcing peopel to have augmented gear, so I won't re-state that.

 

I guess what I'm not clear on is exactly what you would like them to be doing different. To me, it seems like they're pretty much going to let us have our cake and eat it too.

[Agemnon]

You will be able to attempt reverse engineering your t4 armor if you like it. But the cost of mats and random RNG will be too punishing for most players to bother with since wearing a set of low level augmented armor provides the same stats.

 

Random is already in the abbreviation RNG.

[fadingdimension]

As it stands, you can move raid gear stats to any orange armor in the game to get equivalent (or better, with an augment slot) states + set bonus. On the flip side, in the future they will be adding the ability to add augment slots to existing gear, so you're not going to be missing out on that if you happen to like the raid gear. I'm not seeing the problem here.

 

I've already stated my opinion on guilds forcing peopel to have augmented gear, so I won't re-state that.

 

I guess what I'm not clear on is exactly what you would like them to be doing different. To me, it seems like they're pretty much going to let us have our cake and eat it too.

 

They have not said that. They said custom gear that people have saved in their banks. All this means is that you will be able to add an augment slot to custom orange armor that you can't in 1.2. No more and no less. Nothing about raid items or pvp armor. We already disagreed on what they were implying with this quote so it's not much use to debate about and doesn't apply to 1.2 anyway. We have no clue when this will happen.

 

Your opinion about the guilds forcing people to wear armor is fine. But regardless a player is gimping their stats if they forgo crafted armor. Bioware has even explicitly stated this.

 

I've said what I believe they should do differently and given several suggestions that I won't reiterate again.

[murshawursha]

They have not said that. They said custom gear that people have saved in their banks. All this means is that you will be able to add an augment slot to custom orange armor that you can't in 1.2. No more and no less. Nothing about raid items or pvp armor. We already disagreed on what they were implying with this quote so it's not much use to debate about and doesn't apply to 1.2 anyway. We have no clue when this will happen.

 

Your opinion about the guilds forcing people to wear armor is fine. But regardless a player is gimping their stats if they forgo crafted armor. Bioware has even explicitly stated this.

 

I've said what I believe they should do differently and given several suggestions that I won't reiterate again.

 

If the following is your suggestion of a fix:

Or if augmented gear is going to become baseline then just make all gear have augment slots. Crafters can they make alternative looks that are exclusive to them and stat augments for people to place into armor. This will give them essentially the same thing but allow bosses and pvp to drop armor than is worth equipping immediately.

I'm assuming allowing crafters to place augment slots into existing gear is essentially the same as giving all gear augment slots, but we clearly disagree on how exactly adding augment slots will function. So I'll drop that one.

 

As far as bosses dropping armor that's worth equipping immediately, well, raid gear is still going to be the top-tier of armor, and can be immediately equipped to reap its benefits without having to spend money transferring mods. To me, that makes it worth equipping immediately.

 

If you consider not having the extra bit of stats from augment slots (which Bioware has already stated is not necessary to complete endgame content) to be gimping yourself, well, you're entitled to that opinion, but not all of us are super min-maxers, and will be ecstatic to just be able to customize our look, regardless of whether augment slots are involved or not. Might make life harder for the people who are obsessed with having the absolute best possible stats, but not everybody (and I'd actually posit not even most people) play like that.

[starsetter]

I would like to point out a few things. First you guys are raging like there will never be end game augmented oranges and that is just not true. It will take some time for the crafters to get the schematics but consider this, Synthweaver gets his chest, he removes mods from chest, he REs chest, he crits and now he can craft chest. These crafted version will not be bop so he will be free to trade or sell them as he sees fit. Granted not every crafter will get an RE proc every time but there should be enough on each server to get a few that are able to craft those end game items for you.

 

Secondly the reason they are doing this is give then crafters something to do even at end game. You dont want the crafters to make items that are comparable as far as stat to the end game items cause then everyone will get their stuff crafted, clear the content once, and be done with the game. With crafted gear being in demand, the crafters now have something to sell regardless of where anyone is in the game.

 

Finally, in regards to the ability to add augment slots to orange gear. This is to happen in a future patch not yet named and my best guess is that will apply ONLY to orange gear that CANT be crit crafted which means SOCIAL gear among others. Now keep in mind that many of the quest orange gear will be obtainable for crafters through schematics. So that list of 50 craftable orange sets will get much bigger next patch. Yes several other MMOs have some sort of system for customizing the way their gear looks but think about this, the most popular MMO at the moment took 6 years to finally implement something so you didnt look like every other one of your class in your tier gear.