Stop complaining about 1.2 changes...

[RuQu]

(FOR THE COMPLAINERS ABOUT 1.2)

 

update we will have to live with.

 

Complaints are ok.

 

They will probably change more stuff after this update.

 

They never said the changes were permanent FOREVER.

 

Some of these suggested changes are so poorly thought out they should never have been suggested, let alone implemented. They certainly shouldn't make it to Live. If you follow the discussion on the topic you will read that many people are just as concerned about the direction of the game and Dev vision implied by the changes as they are about the exact details of the changes themselves. The philosophy of defining content difficulty entirely to healer throughput is a bad sign, as is the laziness of nerfing healer efficiency instead of properly tuning content or coming up with difficult mechanics.

 

You dont have to over complain though (not a good gaming environment)

 

The forums for this game are actually pretty good compared to most MMOs. The bad environment is largely due to a complete lack of meaningful BW interaction with the community.

 

(I have a lvl 50 shadow tank (not happy with the damage output but oh well hes a tank!)

 

(have a 25 sage healer (not happy with the nerfs i hear that they are getting)

 

But ohh well if you can live with it and still succeed you become a good gamer.

 

Everyone should be up for a challenge

 

The underlined statement is false, or at the very least relies on a number of unstated assumptions.

 

What makes a good gamer? To me a good gamer in an MMO needs two things. They need to work well with a team, since its multiplayer, and they need to be skilled at their class.

 

There is very little Devs can do to affect the teamwork part. Premades and non-PUG Operations should always have a Ventrilo/Mumble/etc server up so they can communicate, and you either work well together or you don't. Target of target and target assist help as well, but that's about the limit there.

 

So it comes down to player skill. How well do you know your abilities? How aware are you of your surroundings (fire, placement, team status) and your status (resources, cooldowns). For PvP you should probably include the opponents status (have they blown cooldowns, recently used interrupt, etc). Skill is also dependent on reflexes, response time, and decision making. Do you make the right decision on which ability to use? How quickly do you decide, and how quickly do you then act on it? Was it fast enough?

 

It is in the skill criteria that these proposed changes actually do harm. Speaking from the Combat Medic Commando viewpoint, the changes to SCC in particular, and KB and TP to a lesser extent, greatly reduce the gap between a skilled player and an unskilled player.

 

You can no longer afford to move TP around to whoever is taking damage. Unless it runs its full 10 charges it is grossly inefficient, which means you can't even afford to swap it on Fabricator for tank swaps. Place it on one tank and forget it.

 

KB DR shield was a powerful tool, but it took skill to use and was often overlooked. A good player could get nearly 100% uptime if they wanted to. A bad player almost never used it. It could be exploited to stack, but instead of fixing that exploit (caused by simple mechanics and a lack of stack checking), they reduced its power so the exploit would be less effective. The downside is that this didn't fix the problem and punished those who didn't exploit it, and by making the benefit of standard use weaker, they reduced the difference between frequent and infrequent users.

 

By far the worst skill reduction is SCC. Before it restored 2 Ammo, now it only restores 1 Ammo. Commandos are primarily resource limited, so if you used SCC often, you had more resources to work with and could increase your max throughput compared to someone who never used it. It also converts the 3% buff from CSC into a 10% buff, but you then have to build up from 0%-3% over 15s, which averages to 1.1% for the duration (because it ramps up). You then have a 10% buff for 10s. So if you take (10*10+1.1*15)/25 you can see that the average % healing buff from regular SCC usage is 4.66%. If you instead nerf SCC's buff from 10% to 5%, you change that equation to (5*10s + 1.1*15s)/25 = 2.66%...you are actually getting less benefit from frequent use than if you simply kept the 3% buff from CSC. You do still gain some benefit from the removal of the cooldown on AP, but the nerf to Field Triage makes AP/MP spam less affordable, which minimizes that benefit. The SCC nerf actually rewards you for not using it often.

 

There are two possibilities here.

1. They thought SCC was too powerful and simply nerfed it without thinking of the implications.
   
2. They looked at how unskilled players used the ability, and then changed it so that skilled players would play the same way...ie intentionally removed the difference between skilled and unskilled gameplay.
   

 

So, after all that, no I don't think simply accepting these changes will make people better gamers.

[XtremJedi]

No indeed. From the Sage/Sorc point of view, I'd also have to agree that the changes will likely lead to skill being much less a factor than before. The reasons why have been detailed enough in a great many places around the forums.

 

Quite a few people have said that "Good players adapt and keep playing". But I really don't think that this is right. There will be many really great MMO players, who have found the game less and less compelling for a variety of reasons, who will look at a deep cut into the quality of their game-play and decide that they've had enough.

 

Why would somebody keep paying to play a game, and investing many hours in the game - when the game-play isn't satisfying and they feel that the developers implement more bad stuff than good stuff. If there were a free to play option, then you could imagine people sticking around just to see what happens... but paying to do something that isn't much fun and looks like getting worse rather than better in the near future?

 

Why?

 

Don't get me wrong... I think good players will tend to continue playing through nerfs, if their game-play is still interesting and fun and if the content of the game is still compelling. But when the quality of game-play is going backwards - from what was a pretty average game-play at best... then that's a different question.

 

Really this isn't about good players or bad players... and I wish people would stop using this as a broad brush-stroke to paint those who have issues with 1.2 as 'bad players'.

 

X

Edited April 4, 2012 by XtremJedi

[JamieKirby]

I am just disappointed that biowares' answer to guardians and juggernauts lack of survivability is to give them a self heal that doesn't help them at all....3% health heal? normals hit for more than that.

[Soshla]

I think good players will tend to continue playing through nerfs, if their game-play is still interesting and fun and if the content of the game is still compelling. But when the quality of game-play is going backwards - from what was a pretty average game-play at best... then that's a different question.

Pretty much. I unsubbed the other day. I haven't been logging in because the healing has gotten a bit stale. Healing mechanics are boring/easy right now and I don't see them becoming more interesting with the planned changes.

[Daayz]

More like fun vs. not fun rather than bad player vs. good player.

 

Sure healing will be manageable, but since it is already under appreciated and not very fun (dps hitting enrage timers and expecting to be healed through them, ppl taking unnecessary raid dmg and expecting to be healed through it) - placing blame on healers when they are not healed (yay lack of dmg taken metrics and the like cause we don't want to hurt anyone's feelings over the internet lololol), I can't even imagine what it will be like in 1.2.

[RuQu]

I am just disappointed that biowares' answer to guardians and juggernauts lack of survivability is to give them a self heal that doesn't help them at all....3% health heal? normals hit for more than that.

 

The homogenization has begun.

 

Look at the Shadow Kinetic Combat talent "Harnessed Shadows." Notice anything? 3% self-healing.

[ErrantMercenary]

No indeed. From the Sage/Sorc point of view, I'd also have to agree that the changes will likely lead to skill being much less a factor than before. The reasons why have been detailed enough in a great many places around the forums.

 

CUT!

 

Don't get me wrong... I think good players will tend to continue playing through nerfs, if their game-play is still interesting and fun and if the content of the game is still compelling. But when the quality of game-play is going backwards - from what was a pretty average game-play at best... then that's a different question.

 

Really this isn't about good players or bad players... and I wish people would stop using this as a broad brush-stroke to paint those who have issues with 1.2 as 'bad players'.

 

X

 

This. This sentiment almost exactly. My old WoW guild has been bugging me to come home for awhile (I'm close with many of them personally) and since I've been just watching developments on the PTS, I hopped back on my old healer (who was being paid for by my GM, apparently I got him too nice a blender for his wedding or something) and goofed off with my old friends.

 

The experience I had was...interesting. It was, more or less, the same game I'd left, and I was glad to be shed of it, but something interesting happened when we did a guild run of a raid.

 

Our other healer played the same class as me (Shaman) and I have spent more than a few hours walking this player through the finer points of our class, explaining what stats did what and why, and when to stop stacking A and start stacking B and so on and so forth. I had more experience, so he was always playing second fiddle, no matter how I coached him.

 

To say he scorched me would be a drastic understatement. His heals ALWAYS seemed like they were beating me to the punch by a couple tenths of a second, it felt like he was having the right idea faster than I could conceive of it, and I was burning through resources just trying to keep level with him.

 

A quick scan of the logs afterward revealed why: He knew what he was doing. I did not. There had been some underlying mechanical changes that had reprioritized our spellcasting and I had bullheadedly charged along like I was used to, and he had adapted.

 

So yes, it's true, that good players will adapt, but the key here is, the adaptation in question rewarded the player for adjusting to the new confines of the system, rather than punishing him for excelling within the old one.

 

And in that moment, I realized, while I did not miss the gameplay, I had a deep appreciation for it's design. I was being outclassed by someone who knew better, someone who had been on the receiving end for almost two years, and it was strangely uplifting to realize that such a thing was possible. He knew the fights better, he knew the class better, and he produced notably better results. Just as it should be.

 

 

As a Combat Medic I've found that the primary reason I didn't enjoy the class was that in PvE (less so in PvP, I've frequently mentioned that I would not have been opposed to being tuned down in PvP, I'd healed myself through some pretty ridiculous scenarios) healing for me was a decision tree process where too many branches of the tree led to bad results, and too many of the good branches came about as a result of factors outside of my realm of control. I was already teetering on the precipice of watching people die because I got shoehorned into unhelpful choices, and the nerfs reinforce that apparently this is SUPPOSED to happen.

 

How is that fun? How am I supposed to sell that to my teammates? How am I supposed to sell "Sorry Teammate 1, you died because the only logical efficient choice for me was to Hammer Shot, which didnt heal you enough, but if I HAD used a heal that had been helpful, several other people would be dead because I was resource bankrupt." That's not fun or interesting decision making. That's not challenging, it's just petty, and mean, and it's not surprising to see so many of us don't enjoy it.

[Endusima]

The main thing that is the source of most of my frustration is the resource system. I realize what they try to do with the Energy system, creating a system where smart healing pays off in the form of higher regeneration.

 

In reality this just limits my options. Since the Energy bar is such a short-term resource (it goes empty fast, it fills up fast) I can never plan ahead. It's not like mana was not an issue in WoW, you had to watch your mana carefully but you always had the option to dramatically increase your healing output knowing that later on it would bite you in the ***. I can't do this now, I only got 100 energy to work with and thats basically like saying "you got 10 heals to work with and then you gotta wait". In theory it's a great idea with dynamic regen and rewarding smart healing, in reality it is just a cockblocker that is hard to balance, either you never run out of resources or you run out of resources really fast.

[Padkhar]

The main thing that is the source of most of my frustration is the resource system. I realize what they try to do with the Energy system, creating a system where smart healing pays off in the form of higher regeneration.

 

In reality this just limits my options. Since the Energy bar is such a short-term resource (it goes empty fast, it fills up fast) I can never plan ahead. It's not like mana was not an issue in WoW, you had to watch your mana carefully but you always had the option to dramatically increase your healing output knowing that later on it would bite you in the ***. I can't do this now, I only got 100 energy to work with and thats basically like saying "you got 10 heals to work with and then you gotta wait". In theory it's a great idea with dynamic regen and rewarding smart healing, in reality it is just a cockblocker that is hard to balance, either you never run out of resources or you run out of resources really fast.

 

I kind of feel it forces me to plan ahead, actually, because I have to make strategic use of the cooldowns, and even DS when I can on some fights in order to keep my energy in the safe zone for as long as I can. So I used to just think "is the heal needed" but now I kind of think " how cheap is the heal and how necessary is it?" The cheaper it is (b/c my energy is high) the less "necessary" it needs to be. I put necessary in quotes there, because I feel part of the Scoundrel/Ops healing style involves keeping UH/TA proc'd, and healing more frequently, rather than having long pauses while damage accumulates and your resources regenerate.

[Tobradex]

While I have many problems with the Dev's in this game (ie: ignoring the need to combine servers, nerf of Operative DPS, uselessness of crafting, etc), I do feel that PvE is too easy at endgame and either:

 

1) Raid damage should be increased

or

2) Healers need to be nerfed

 

In the healer forums there is a thread on the viability of solo healing HM Ops. This in itself is an example of a game out of balance. I am a lvl 50 Operative healer, and feel that the game is pretty well balanced around my classes healing abilities (which is generally accepted as UP pre 1.2), excepting the lack of AOE heals.

 

While the nerfs to BH do seem a bit extreme, there needs to be a re-balancing to make the game more of a challenge. A group full of baddies should NOT be able to be saved by an OP healer. Too often in PUG groups I see DPS claiming they can tank and doing it.

 

Since on these forums there are many comparisons to WoW, I think few would argue that TOR endgame raiding is anywhere near as difficult as WoW raiding. This applies to healers more than other classes.

 

I am a long-time MMO player since EQ1. Let the flames begin....

[oredith]

Since on these forums there are many comparisons to WoW, I think few would argue that TOR endgame raiding is anywhere near as difficult as WoW raiding. This applies to healers more than other classes.

 

I am a long-time MMO player since EQ1. Let the flames begin....

it's not so much a discussion of difficulty, vs. complexity.

 

ToR healing is not "easy" because we're op. it's easy because there's 3 buttons to push (exaggerated, obviously).

 

when your toolbox contains 1/3 of the tools that WoW gives you, your job becomes simplified. instead of having to decide between a whole slew of skills, now you have very few, and most often, the ability you use is dictated by cooldown, not by choice.

 

the new change will exacerbate this further. now they are making it so that not only are you limited by cooldown, but you'll ALSO be limited by resources, so that you can only auto-attack (rapid shot).

 

maybe that is enjoyable for some people, but not me

[RuQu]

While I have many problems with the Dev's in this game (ie: ignoring the need to combine servers, nerf of Operative DPS, uselessness of crafting, etc), I do feel that PvE is too easy at endgame and either:

 

1) Raid damage should be increased

or

2) Healers need to be nerfed

 

I would argue that (1) is the better option. It spreads the burden around. Tanks need to up their mitigation and cooldown usage. DPS needs to use defensive cooldowns, watch threat (admittedly no tool for this in SWTOR...but that's on BW) and move out of fire fast. Healers would need to pick up the healing to cover the increased damage as well, of course. Option (2) puts it all on the healers.

 

In the healer forums there is a thread on the viability of solo healing HM Ops. This in itself is an example of a game out of balance.

 

I think this speaks more to poor gear balancing.

 

Look at WoW. With most expansions they do a "stat squash" where they rebalance the stat curves so that what was OP at the end of the last expansion is now barely powerful enough. They also try and plan out the stat progression for the expansion, from release until the final planned raid. There are often caps, like avoidance or armor DR, that aren't possible in the first raid, but are possible by the end. In SWTOR, you can easily get most stats high enough to encounter massive diminishing returns even in Tionese and Columi gear. Surge is nearly flatlined by 300 rating, which is trivially easy to get.

 

We are hitting end-of-expansion levels of gearing on the initial content!

 

I am a lvl 50 Operative healer, and feel that the game is pretty well balanced around my classes healing abilities (which is generally accepted as UP pre 1.2), excepting the lack of AOE heals.

 

Operative ST healing is known to have been comparable to Merc ST healing for a long time, and is supported by both anecdotes and sims. The problem with Operative's was a lack of flexibility, lack of burst, and weak AoE. Flexibility is being addressed in 1.2 with the UH/TA change, burst is being "fixed" by removing it from the other classes, and the AoE got buffed but is still crippled by the 4-cap and lack of smart-healing.

 

Removal of burst from other classes to fix the lack of it in Operatives is just petty, and poor design. Nerfing ST throughput on the other two, who were comparable ST to Operatives before, now puts them below Operatives and is poor balance.

 

While the nerfs to BH do seem a bit extreme, there needs to be a re-balancing to make the game more of a challenge. A group full of baddies should NOT be able to be saved by an OP healer. Too often in PUG groups I see DPS claiming they can tank and doing it.

 

Most of us would prefer more of a challenge, but the current changes are almost as wrong of a method for doing so as is possible.

 

As for DPS tanking and bad PUGs, those healers are over-geared for the content. Try a FP full of bad players with a good fresh 50 healer and see how well it goes.

 

Since on these forums there are many comparisons to WoW, I think few would argue that TOR endgame raiding is anywhere near as difficult as WoW raiding. This applies to healers more than other classes.

 

I am a long-time MMO player since EQ1. Let the flames begin....

 

I would agree that none of these raids are as hard as WoW's, but it isn't because of resources. In WoLK content healer mana was near infinite, but there were still some really hard fights because of hard and interesting mechanics. For that matter, the non-Force resources are designed to be infinite! If they want to challenge us, they need to put in the effort, add some interesting boss and healer mechanics, and properly tune the content. Nerfing resources is not only lazy, its also uninteresting.

[SinnedQWERTY]

I have to disagree--strongly. Healer resources should not be near infinite when going all out. I like where my operative is for resource management. I consider myself a good player, but I'll still run out of energy if I'm stressed enough. Sorcs should have the same problem. I think forcing healers to plan ahead and make tradeoffs is superior to a paradigm in which a properly executed rotation yields near-infinite resources.

 

Side note: I actually do dispute GZ's number crunching when he says that "operatives are within 5% of marauders [dps]," and then proceeds to buff marauders and nerf operatives sustained dps.

 

Well said, I often play with the same tank and dps player in instances, the dps player knows very well that if he screws up to much, he's gonna go down when my resources are stretched already at this point.

 

He's probably looking forward to me having one more TA... (which is just one more quick heal and a buffer to keep the 3% bonus up). I should probably warn him to keep playing safe

 

The one thing I found out with my operative is that choosing who gets a heal and who doesn't really isn't a choice, if you don't choose you will run out of resources, the tank will go down and... With my sorc and also before switching to empire, with my consular ... I didn't feel this to be an issue as much...

 

I just hope for my fellow healers, they didn't over do it Often, It's an ungrateful job already.

[oredith]

I would argue that (1) is the better option. It spreads the burden around. Tanks need to up their mitigation and cooldown usage. DPS needs to use defensive cooldowns, watch threat (admittedly no tool for this in SWTOR...but that's on BW) and move out of fire fast. Healers would need to pick up the healing to cover the increased damage as well, of course. Option (2) puts it all on the healers.

putting it all on the healers wouldn't be that huge of a problem. there were a few fights in WoW where a healer was super stressed by unavoidable dmg that simply needed to be healed through (i can't remember the mechanics that much anymore, but Heroic LK comes to mind).

 

those were fun.

 

no, putting it all on the healer, while at the same time, making healing very, very, VERY BORING, is a terrible combination.

[RuQu]

putting it all on the healers wouldn't be that huge of a problem. there were a few fights in WoW where a healer was super stressed by unavoidable dmg that simply needed to be healed through (i can't remember the mechanics that much anymore, but Heroic LK comes to mind).

 

those were fun.

 

no, putting it all on the healer, while at the same time, making healing very, very, VERY BORING, is a terrible combination.

 

The LK fight itself was very well done. It put pressure on everyone. I was our OT for that level of content, and I can say it was a good tank fight. Lots of adds to hold, one of whom could enrage if not interrupted and huge damage. Tank swaps on LK himself. Positioning concerns with staying away from edges for Val'kyr but keeping out of the black puddles, then running out for phase changes. Adds to pick up on phase change, and position so they didn't hit the raid with their conal AoE. DPS had to make sure orbs didn't reach the edge, Val'kyr got snared and then killed fast, puddles didn't spread. Healers had tons of damage to cover, plus the fun hopping disease to dispel at the right moment, but not too soon!

 

That's how a fight should be. It should test everyone in the group, and have mechanics that aren't trivialized even when you over-gear it. I did it a few months back at 85 and most of H. ICC was a joke...until LK. We wiped a few times and had to bring in another person to up the DPS and get through faster because there was a mechanic some people just weren't grasping and it was causing a wipe. Was it easier with end-of-next expansion gear and stats? Certainly, but it wasn't trivial either, and that's good mechanics design.

[oredith]

and that's good mechanics design.

and maybe that's part of the problem with this game. there's not a lot of depth.

 

granted, if you were comparing EV/KP to first tier WoW content like MC / Onyxia, they're actually pretty on par. Rag had a few phase-type things that had to be dealt with.

 

I think the problem for most players though, is that we expect the game development community to build upon each other's advances, not start from the ground floor with every new game.

 

LK (H LK was the last of my hard core WoW raiding days, i tanked and healed the fight, server 2nd, and WoL world 3rd healer on the Heroic 8 for a couple weeks) was considerably more complicated than previous content, and worthy of "final boss" of a tier content.

 

compare that to Soa. you can easily learn the mechanics in 30 minutes, and with a group of equally skilled players, beat it on the first night out - if you didn't get owned by bugs.

 

i feel terrible about the game every day. there's a real dichotomy with my expectation of the game, vs. actual game experience.

 

In game, i hang out in guild with mostly real life friends, and we use it as a chat room to bridge the time til our next RL party. I've also met some great friends like Dulfy (total fluke, she helped me via fleet chat one day. didn't realize she was gonna be some super ToR blogforce.. haha). mostly, i'm actually fairly happy with the game, if i'm totally ignorant to the upcoming changes, and the vector of the change.

 

and there's the knowledge about the game, outside the game. it's really frustrating to think about how much it's going to suck in the coming months. I'm mostly wondering if i want to convince the others to go back to WoW. i don't actually want to play the game, but I want to continue to have my online hangout, and I know Blizz can deliver a quality product, with a design philosophy that, while i may not agree with, is at least well thought out.

[Tobradex]

it's not so much a discussion of difficulty, vs. complexity.

 

ToR healing is not "easy" because we're op. it's easy because there's 3 buttons to push (exaggerated, obviously).

 

when your toolbox contains 1/3 of the tools that WoW gives you, your job becomes simplified. instead of having to decide between a whole slew of skills, now you have very few, and most often, the ability you use is dictated by cooldown, not by choice.

 

the new change will exacerbate this further. now they are making it so that not only are you limited by cooldown, but you'll ALSO be limited by resources, so that you can only auto-attack (rapid shot).

 

maybe that is enjoyable for some people, but not me

 

 

I agree that adding complexity and not removing complexity would make the game more fun for the skilled player. However, I think you are ignoring the continuous problems WoW had as far as lack of effective options in order to maximize thoughtput.

IE: Shadowbolt spam sac/pet for warlocks for about a year of BC

IE: Disc Priest Bubble spam through most of ICC.

 

Both of these were OP for quite a while, and although priests and warlocks had other options, they were rarely used. As a disc priest in most of ICC I used penance on cooldown and mostly used bubbles with a few flash heals. I personally ***** the meters and cleared content with both strategies.

 

While SWTOR has marginally fewer healing options, the fact is, for the most part, throughout most of WoW the skilled player still used the most efficient abilities available.

It was not until late in WoW that complex rotations utilizing most abilities were used by most players.

[Antipathize]

I just want to say that the majority of these posters are the people Bioware should be consulting while balancing classes and formulary class design. I am normally a tank, so I haven't been on the receiving end of anything negative so far, but the posts here and in other places really outline the basic problems.

 

While I'm not informed enough to really understand all the mechanics, I feel that a huge majority of the problem is class comparisons. I think that bioware would have an easier time if each class had a "role" i.e. merc healers provided damage mitigation and not high healing numbers at all. Sorcs being the "dps type healers" and operatives being a sustained heal. As it is now, I feel like the abilities are so similar that too many healers and people in general are trying to match each other, which leads to the homogenization mentioned before.

 

I used to play a MUD, and the owner flat out refused to balance classes based on "another class can do this" it had its own problems, but made each class unique and fun to play.

 

The problem here I think, is that when players offer constructive intelligent criticism, the developers want to think they know better. After all, they have the metrics, designed the class from the ground up, and have a grand plan in sight. It's far less of an affront to their pride when people cry for nerfs, because they see it as the common rabble unable to fully grasp mechanics, and so dumbing it down makes it more appealing. It also helps sustain subs. (they think)

 

Just my .02 keep up the good work.

Edited April 5, 2012 by Antipathize

[oredith]

I agree that adding complexity and not removing complexity would make the game more fun for the skilled player. However, I think you are ignoring the continuous problems WoW had as far as lack of effective options in order to maximize thoughtput.

IE: Shadowbolt spam sac/pet for warlocks for about a year of BC

IE: Disc Priest Bubble spam through most of ICC.

 

Both of these were OP for quite a while

the difference is "OP" vs. "Best"

 

remember when WOTLK expansion first came out, and priests could spam that AoE heal (forgot what it's called now) without the 6s CD?

 

yeah, that was OP, but not "best".. you *could* just heal by using that one button, but it was ONLY "best" when the situation called for it.

 

bubble spam? yeah, it was ok, if you didn't understand the mechanics, and just used it because it made things easy.. just put it on anyone in grid who didn't have the debuff.

 

however, it's another thing completely, to be "BEST" at it.. like timing it correctly to NOT be used until the exact time you needed it to on the H LK fight, to return massive mana.

 

"OP" is generally applied as a "mindless" ability. it's something else entirely to be GOOD.

[Tobradex]

the difference is "OP" vs. "Best"

 

remember when WOTLK expansion first came out, and priests could spam that AoE heal (forgot what it's called now) without the 6s CD?

 

yeah, that was OP, but not "best".. you *could* just heal by using that one button, but it was ONLY "best" when the situation called for it.

 

bubble spam? yeah, it was ok, if you didn't understand the mechanics, and just used it because it made things easy.. just put it on anyone in grid who didn't have the debuff.

 

however, it's another thing completely, to be "BEST" at it.. like timing it correctly to NOT be used until the exact time you needed it to on the H LK fight, to return massive mana.

 

"OP" is generally applied as a "mindless" ability. it's something else entirely to be GOOD.

 

 

The "best" is the most effective and mana efficient. Bubble had the best HPCT, MPH ratio (after the return when the bubble was used up) etc. It was the best spell. While I could and did use other spells, you are missing my point and saying I was a hack. The point is that at that time the bubble was out of balance. It was the most efficient and powerful spell in our arsenal at the time. That is why they nerfed the hell out of it. Good players use the most efficient and powerful spells/rotations in order to have resources in case of "oh ....". No one is a "bad player" for using their best abilities.

 

Stop telling people to LTP that you don't know. Obviously I had some ability and knowledge in clearing ICC HM without a 30% buff as a dps, a healer, and a tank.

 

 

 

The initial point was that for most of it's existance, WoW had many instances of imbalance or times when 3 buttons were about all that were used by many players min/maxing. Hopefully TOR can balance things better than WoW did. However, I think many are forgetting the endless balancing of nerfs and buffs to all classes. They forget the constant flux of people playing the most OP class or spec of the time. ie: tankadins were useless through most of vanilla, then totally OP in WOTLK. ie: the rogue population flux.

[RuQu]

The "best" is the most effective and mana efficient. Bubble had the best HPCT, MPH ratio (after the return when the bubble was used up) etc. It was the best spell. While I could and did use other spells, you are missing my point and saying I was a hack. The point is that at that time the bubble was out of balance. It was the most efficient and powerful spell in our arsenal at the time. That is why they nerfed the hell out of it. Good players use the most efficient and powerful spells/rotations in order to have resources in case of "oh ....". No one is a "bad player" for using their best abilities.

 

Stop telling people to LTP that you don't know. Obviously I had some ability and knowledge in clearing ICC HM without a 30% buff as a dps, a healer, and a tank.

 

The initial point was that for most of it's existance, WoW had many instances of imbalance or times when 3 buttons were about all that were used by many players min/maxing. Hopefully TOR can balance things better than WoW did. However, I think many are forgetting the endless balancing of nerfs and buffs to all classes. They forget the constant flux of people playing the most OP class or spec of the time. ie: tankadins were useless through most of vanilla, then totally OP in WOTLK. ie: the rogue population flux.

 

These are valid points, but I think you can agree that the nerf to Disc bubbles was called for. The nerf increased complexity and necessary decision making. The ability was OP because it was a no-brainer...you used it to the exclusion of others.

 

There will always be a cycle of nerf/buff as players find optimal routines, OP "I Win" buttons/combos, or decide that one ability may be a 1% increase in output for a 20% increase in effort and avoid it as unneeded (ie Kolto Infusion right now, widely seen as an HPS increase that isn't worth the cost).

 

Players understand this, and many people have said they would have accepted coefficient changes to their heals (power reduction), but that the resource changes are too drastic of a playstyle/mechanics change. It doesn't nerf an ability, it nerfs a class and playstyle.

[Tobradex]

These are valid points, but I think you can agree that the nerf to Disc bubbles was called for. The nerf increased complexity and necessary decision making. The ability was OP because it was a no-brainer...you used it to the exclusion of others.

 

I agree completely. Again, the point I am making is that WoW had massive retooling and rebalancing throughout its span. This game has only been out a few months. Things SHOULD be balanced. 1.2 is an effort to balance things between classes and between players and the environment. My initial point is that healing in this game is too easy for sorc for sure, and to some degree for BH. It is out of wack. The three healing classes and healing in general are not balanced. It appears the Dev's are trying to balance both of these issues. (However they are probably going overboard in nerfing BH.) There are 2 options:

 

1) increasing raid damage (which might be worse for spike damage if health pools are relatively static).

or

2) decreasing healing of the most OP classes

 

Let's see how this shakes out.

[RuQu]

I agree completely. Again, the point I am making is that WoW had massive retooling and rebalancing throughout its span. This game has only been out a few months. Things SHOULD be balanced. 1.2 is an effort to balance things between classes and between players and the environment. My initial point is that healing in this game is too easy for sorc for sure, and to some degree for BH. It is out of wack. The three healing classes and healing in general are not balanced. It appears the Dev's are trying to balance both of these issues. (However they are probably going overboard in nerfing BH.) There are 2 options:

 

1) increasing raid damage (which might be worse for spike damage if health pools are relatively static).

or

2) decreasing healing of the most OP classes

 

Let's see how this shakes out.

 

The problem is that the changes don't appear to accomplish these goals.

 

1) Sustained ST healing was very close on Live based on anecdotes, napkin-math, and sims (ie the only tools we have on Live). They are nerfing two classes, which will upset this balance. Sadly I have been unable to get 3 people, one of each class, to do a 15 minute test series on PTS for me to compare the new values properly.

2) The under-powered healers (CM/BG for AoE only, Sc/Op for burst and AoE) are not having their problem areas fixed.

3) There are better ways to reduce our throughput.

 

If it was just balance changes, I wouldn't be complaining. I've weathered years of buff/nerf cycles in WoW with no complaint. They are new at this. They are off to a bad start, at a dangerous time for the game (first new content is a big moment for deciding if some people stay).

[oredith]

The "best" is the most effective and mana efficient. Bubble had the best HPCT, MPH ratio (after the return when the bubble was used up) etc. It was the best spell. While I could and did use other spells, you are missing my point and saying I was a hack. The point is that at that time the bubble was out of balance. It was the most efficient and powerful spell in our arsenal at the time. That is why they nerfed the hell out of it. Good players use the most efficient and powerful spells/rotations in order to have resources in case of "oh ....". No one is a "bad player" for using their best abilities.

 

Stop telling people to LTP that you don't know. Obviously I had some ability and knowledge in clearing ICC HM without a 30% buff as a dps, a healer, and a tank.

 

 

 

The initial point was that for most of it's existance, WoW had many instances of imbalance or times when 3 buttons were about all that were used by many players min/maxing. Hopefully TOR can balance things better than WoW did. However, I think many are forgetting the endless balancing of nerfs and buffs to all classes. They forget the constant flux of people playing the most OP class or spec of the time. ie: tankadins were useless through most of vanilla, then totally OP in WOTLK. ie: the rogue population flux.

calm your horses there, chief.

 

try to understand that I wasn't telling anyone to L2P, i was DEFINITELY not saying anything about YOU personally.

 

what I was referring to, is that there will ALWAYS be something that's easy to do, that allows you to APPEAR to be op, but then to be the best, you actually have to fully understand when and where to use that, not just spam it.

[oredith]

There are 2 options:

 

1) increasing raid damage (which might be worse for spike damage if health pools are relatively static).

or

2) decreasing healing of the most OP classes

 

Let's see how this shakes out.

and this is the problem. you see 2 possible options - and I have a fear that the devs see the same thing as you, and actually have picked the worse one of the 2.

 

the truth, however, is that there are infinitely MORE options than those 2.

 

how about making the fights so that mechanics make the healing and/or dps harder/easier? stand on an effect to gain a buff? boss that puts out a debuff that reduces your healing/dmg, and you have to get something to neutralize it?

 

how about debuff that reduces healing to players incrementally, til it is cleared?

 

etc, etc.. these aren't new and never before seen mechanics. they're already there in wow, free for the taking (in terms of ideas) - and there's a ton more options.

 

unfortunately, BW seemed to think in checker terms, rather than chess terms.