Stop complaining about 1.2 changes...

[Aaoogaa]

BW rushed to get the game out the door. They were not worried about metrics just the cash. Now that they have your money they are now worried about making the game as easy for them to update as they can. This shift to the WoW system of doing things is actually a huge turn off for the game for me. I am not sure there are many months of this MMO on the horizon for me. Many of my guild mates have already returned to wow...more are going to follow after 1.2. The only thing actually keeping me playing is I hate WoW and still enjoy this game as it is currently. This may change in about 2 weeks.

[oredith]

Many of my guild mates have already returned to wow...more are going to follow after 1.2. The only thing actually keeping me playing is I hate WoW and still enjoy this game as it is currently. This may change in about 2 weeks.

and blizzard's not stupid, you can bet your *** that they've got people looking into TOR. the latest round of free scroll of resurrection is insane. I'm already losing people who are taking that up, just to try out a class they never wanted to bother leveling.

 

hell, this keeps up, and I may use the one i received, to try out a warg druid..

 

I doubt it though, i've done the MMO thing so much, that i was really DONE with them when i quit wow a year and half ago. I came into SWTOR because of the great memory with SWG, and hoping this game would carry the torch dropped by SOE.

 

thus far, EA/BW is turning out to be SOE v2.0..

[Aaoogaa]

and blizzard's not stupid, you can bet your *** that they've got people looking into TOR. the latest round of free scroll of resurrection is insane. I'm already losing people who are taking that up, just to try out a class they never wanted to bother leveling.

 

hell, this keeps up, and I may use the one i received, to try out a warg druid..

 

I doubt it though, i've done the MMO thing so much, that i was really DONE with them when i quit wow a year and half ago. I came into SWTOR because of the great memory with SWG, and hoping this game would carry the torch dropped by SOE.

 

thus far, EA/BW is turning out to be SOE v2.0..

 

Sad thing is, the shaman nerfs are what made me bitter to playing Wow any longer. Why the hell is the same thing happening here?

[Soshla]

I think this was a reasonable read of the information presented at the time. I'm sure GZ would argue that the failure lies with the reader who saw things that simply weren't stated. That may be true in a sense, but what I learned from this whole experience is that you must parse GZ statements very carefully, asking yourself each step of the way what information might be deliberately omitted. This is not a good quality in somebody responsible for communicating information like this, and it does not build trust, quite the opposite actually. In one of his recent posts he referred to how difficult it is to 'sell' nerfs -- a big part of sales is managing expectations and building trust.

Using the Sage changes, my interpretation is that it's likely the developers hadn't fully finished the changes at the time GZ made that post.

 

Mentioning a bug fix to Conveyance/Force Bending without mentioning the fact that it's being reworked substantially? We're not even talking about unreleated abilities (KB and MP/AMP) being changed or abilities that are only associated with each other being changed (KB and SCC). We're talking about the same ability having two changes and only mentioning one of them.

 

He either didn't know or was being intentionally deceptive to hide the other change to Conveyance/Force Bending for whatever reason.

[Sinemetu]

It occurred to me to wonder what was going on during beta?

 

Did BW not have the same metrics back then? I'm pretty sure that they did, as I seem to remember them talking about that during beta. They also had a bunch of very dedicated, usually excellent players doing the testing for them, through closed and open beta.

 

End game wasn't tested very thoroughly. I wasn't part of the beta, but my understanding is that it was never done the way Blizzard has done it (eg, giving everyone a max-level char in tier gear). You had to level to 50, and if there was a reset, you had to level again. If someone with a more intimate knowledge of beta wants to correct me, feel free.

[RuQu]

and blizzard's not stupid, you can bet your *** that they've got people looking into TOR. the latest round of free scroll of resurrection is insane. I'm already losing people who are taking that up, just to try out a class they never wanted to bother leveling.

 

hell, this keeps up, and I may use the one i received, to try out a warg druid..

 

I doubt it though, i've done the MMO thing so much, that i was really DONE with them when i quit wow a year and half ago. I came into SWTOR because of the great memory with SWG, and hoping this game would carry the torch dropped by SOE.

 

thus far, EA/BW is turning out to be SOE v2.0..

 

If you read the beta info for Mists, you can see they are doing more than sniping players. They have added AoE looting, the Raid Finder difficulty of raids now does loot how Normal Mode does (auto selects people and assigns them loot), and as of the final raid of Cataclysm (Dragon Soul) they have added cinematic cut scenes. It was really cool to see the first time, but, of course, the story was worse than what we have here so it seems doubly cheesy in hindsight. If popular, and I think it was, you can bet they will improve on it.

 

Even more strikingly...I think they may even be listening to us (right now!). The new Monk class has a very unique resource system based on spending Energy to build up Chi, and using combos to unleash powers, and it has a healing tree! You know...unique and interesting healer gameplay.

 

I find their storytelling to be highly juvenile, but you have to give Blizz credit for continuing to innovate, steal the best ideas around and build on them, and listening to their player base.

[RuQu]

It occurred to me to wonder what was going on during beta?

 

Did BW not have the same metrics back then? I'm pretty sure that they did, as I seem to remember them talking about that during beta. They also had a bunch of very dedicated, usually excellent players doing the testing for them, through closed and open beta.

 

If the metrics are so good... and the game was well designed around them.... then how did healing get so out of hand in the first place? And why was there such a mismatch between healing power and the content?

 

The basis of the BW position seems to be that they use these metrics and design their healers to hit certain target metrics - and that the content is designed to be just right for healers healing at those targets.

 

So where did it go wrong?

 

 

I've heard a lot of reports from disgruntled beta players that issues were reported often months before release and never addressed. So that's one option.

 

I also think a big part of the problem is trying to design a game purely on metrics. They even did one of those Developer Dispatch video blogs about how many metrics they had for tracking and tweaking the game. They love their metrics...but the numbers don't show you how a class feels.

[wrotruck]

This problem is amplified regarding healing, specifically because there is very little design apparent in the healing classes - they're just a hodgepodge of restorative abilities tacked-on to what are otherwise DPS classes. That's what makes it weird when the only class that looked like it had been well-designed at all - Sorc/Sage - gets a (reportedly) strong nerf to those mechanics; I submit this as proof positive that there is no coherent design targets for Healers.

 

I agree with so much of what you are saying but this has me scratching my head. I always thought the intent for healers in SW:ToR was to have more utility (e.g. DPS abilities, Interrupts, stuns etc...). While our healing skills were supposed to exceed those things, they were still there and to be used. It added a dynamic play style and off set a rather unimpressive healing toolbox. Personally, I like it. It makes me feel more involved in the group. And, if I see the this fail in any one place it's that they did not equip OPs/Scoundrels with that same utility.

 

The changes coming in 1.2 seem to be a major departure from that. It's like they are ripping the utility from us by making resources more difficult to manage. That is a departure from, what I understood to be, the fundamental intent of an expanded role for healers.

 

Perhaps utility is the metric that they are measuring. Maybe it wasn't that our healing was to great, it was that the utility we were bringing to groups was to great and pushing us past their limits. I have been pondering RuQu's recent posts about the use of "cleanse" abilities. Stuns, interrupts and, to a lesser extent, damage are really the same idea. They allow us to mitigate incoming damage and in turn it becomes avoided healing.

 

IDK, is is possible that we, especially the Sage/Sorc. community, are mitigating to much damage? Is there a way to even quantify those kinds of numbers? In my mind, this would explain Bioware's decision not to work on Scoundrels/Ops and their choice to functional "turn off" utility on the other two healing classes.

 

Thoughts?

[XtremJedi]

If that were their goal, then they would more logically have reduced the Bubble damage absorption, reduced stun length, put interrupt on a long CD etc.

 

But who knows?

 

X

[Shroudveil]

I agree with so much of what you are saying but this has me scratching my head. I always thought the intent for healers in SW:ToR was to have more utility (e.g. DPS abilities, Interrupts, stuns etc...). While our healing skills were supposed to exceed those things, they were still there and to be used. It added a dynamic play style and off set a rather unimpressive healing toolbox. Personally, I like it. It makes me feel more involved in the group. And, if I see the this fail in any one place it's that they did not equip OPs/Scoundrels with that same utility.

 

The changes coming in 1.2 seem to be a major departure from that. It's like they are ripping the utility from us by making resources more difficult to manage. That is a departure from, what I understood to be, the fundamental intent of an expanded role for healers.

 

Perhaps utility is the metric that they are measuring. Maybe it wasn't that our healing was to great, it was that the utility we were bringing to groups was to great and pushing us past their limits. I have been pondering RuQu's recent posts about the use of "cleanse" abilities. Stuns, interrupts and, to a lesser extent, damage are really the same idea. They allow us to mitigate incoming damage and in turn it becomes avoided healing.

 

IDK, is is possible that we, especially the Sage/Sorc. community, are mitigating to much damage? Is there a way to even quantify those kinds of numbers? In my mind, this would explain Bioware's decision not to work on Scoundrels/Ops and their choice to functional "turn off" utility on the other two healing classes.

 

Thoughts?

 

if their purpose was to heal through utility they have failed miserably due to glaring utility disperancies but ~equal amount of hps.

 

take p.e. operative. in endgame operations he brings nothing apart his healing, not a single ability can be considered "utility". on the other hand sorcs still bring defensive buffs, pulls, speed buffs and etc, while merc's still brings (although nerfed) DR shields, +healing received buffs, +armor buff.

 

so, apart from dispel which all healers have, and apart from combat rez which is an ability that only 1 person/8-16people actually bring and can be easily substitued, they should have include viable utility skills for the operative in order to make him competitive in that department.

 

alas, they simply nerfed sorc to the healing numbers of operative, left their utility alone, and did QoL changes to operative. merc's utility was even further reduced in half (buffs from 10% cut to 5%), their resource managment which affected only their heals also gutted due to supposingly high numbers.

 

so no, nothing shows that BW intended to have healers heal through utility apart from the sorc model who has some tools to do so (in addition to his healing).

[wrotruck]

If that were their goal, then they would more logically have reduced the Bubble damage absorption, reduced stun length, put interrupt on a long CD etc.

 

But who knows?

 

X

 

 

But that would mean also nerfing the DPS specs. Why the heck would anyone nerf DPS?

 

Healers are a much more fun target!

 

if their purpose was to heal through utility they have failed miserably due to glaring utility disperancies but ~equal amount of hps.

 

take p.e. operative. in endgame operations he brings nothing apart his healing, not a single ability can be considered "utility". on the other hand sorcs still bring defensive buffs, pulls, speed buffs and etc, while merc's still brings (although nerfed) DR shields, +healing received buffs, +armor buff.

 

so, apart from dispel which all healers have, and apart from combat rez which is an ability that only 1 person/8-16people actually bring and can be easily substitued, they should have include viable utility skills for the operative in order to make him competitive in that department.

 

That is basically my point. They decided that it would be easier to "switch off" the other specs utility rather than rework Operatives. And, they based the decision to do this on metrics that said our utility provided to much avoided damage. See what I mean?

 

It's a question of where we are exceeding numbers. And maybe, it's not in the place we thought it was.

Edited March 28, 2012 by wrotruck

[RuQu]

 

That is basically my point. They decided that it would be easier to "switch off" the other specs utility rather than rework Operatives. And, they based the decision to do this on metrics that said our utility provided to much avoided damage. See what I mean?

 

It's a question of where we are exceeding numbers. And maybe, it's not in the place we thought it was.

 

It's a valid question. It leads to the exact same answer that seems obvious to everyone but BW: Fix Operatives/Scoundrels.

 

We have no way of knowing what metrics they are using or what those thresholds are without them telling us.

[redheadedtim]

End game wasn't tested very thoroughly. I wasn't part of the beta, but my understanding is that it was never done the way Blizzard has done it (eg, giving everyone a max-level char in tier gear). You had to level to 50, and if there was a reset, you had to level again. If someone with a more intimate knowledge of beta wants to correct me, feel free.

 

Correct, as beta was approaching launch, ie late Sept if I remember correctly, they made a high level server where you got some level 42 characters at random. Thing is, they couldn't even make that work correctly and many players never received them. I can attest that many things, like "customizable UI" (not even moddable, just movable) and bugs were reported in beta and not addressed. Other issues occurred at launch that didn't exist in beta. The fact that they can't grant high level toons on PTS now or do a character copy of database items from live players (with the exception of those chosen for guild testing) just tells me they don't know or care much about high end testing. Hopefully they'll listen to the guilds doing the char copy testing now and adjust things before 1.2, but I wouldn't bet on it. I'd put 1.2 nerfs being significantly adjusted at the same likelihood as them developing decent/good looking high end armor for all classes.

Edited March 30, 2012 by redheadedtim

[Sinemetu]

It's a valid question. It leads to the exact same answer that seems obvious to everyone but BW: Fix Operatives/Scoundrels.

 

We have no way of knowing what metrics they are using or what those thresholds are without them telling us.

 

"Ah, yes, the 'operatives.' The class that supposedly lacks the ranged utility that other healers bring. We have dismissed that claim."

[Bankaikiller]

Is alacrity going to be made more useful in 1.2, or is it going to remain the same? Thought I heard somewhere here where it was getting buffed. if that happens then wont sorc healers be better?

[RuQu]

Is alacrity going to be made more useful in 1.2, or is it going to remain the same? Thought I heard somewhere here where it was getting buffed. if that happens then wont sorc healers be better?

 

So far the only stat that appears to be changed at all is Expertise.

[Bankaikiller]

Bah, Owell. I don't think the nerf will affect me much anyways, because I feel a tad OP in pve healing, which is what I mainly do in operation HMS. I'm at the point where me and my guild can grind through and 1shot it now anyways. And having them get dps buff works for me I'm at 570 bonus healing anyways . full rakata with all buffs and exotech stim will net me 6OO too Edited March 31, 2012 by Bankaikiller

[signahead]

I'm willing to wait on the changes, experiment with them and see what happens. As the OP says, there will undoubtedly be more shifts in the future. So I try not to let that bug me.

 

That said, something is starting to damage my usually calm demeanor. I'm not sure if it has to do with the patch or not, but since it's happening right now it feels like the patch is partly to blame. On my server, and in these forums, there is a growing number of players who are actively hostile to healers. This is especially true in PvP (or just discussions about PvP). We're being blamed for "ruining the game" and the upcoming adjustments to healing are being portrayed as some kind of divine retribution.

 

Some of this is understandable. I've started playing a DPS character myself, and it is frustrating when a healer wipes out all of your hard work. Heck, I'm a healer and I still swear at my computer when that happens to me. If I was the kind of person who posts angry, accusatory rants on the forums, I would probably have posted a few anti-healing rants myself. I'm not. But I don't mind when other players do. We all get to make our own entertainment.

 

But I'm also seeing healers get blamed for a lot of things which have very little to do with healing. Last night we faced a very well-organized Imperial team in Huttball. Not only did they have three healers, one from each healing class, they were also extremely good at focus fire. They'd choose a target, hit that target with 3 or 4 DSPers at once, and it would just melt away. Then they'd choose a new target and do the same thing again.

 

My little pick-up group fought valiantly. We even managed to briefly capture two targets with some tricky maneuvering and some coordination of our own. But once the Imperials figured it out and sent their focus-firing Death Star, we didn't hold the second turret for long.

 

In Ops chat, no one seemed to acknowledge how well the DPSers on the opposing team worked together. Even though players on our team were withering under the Death Star's focus fire, all of the discussion focused on the three opposing healers. If their healers were less effective, the reasoning went, we would have won the game. Many of my teammates were even saying that they couldn't wait for the patch, and telling the other players (in our Ops chat...no I'm not sure how they expected the Imperial players to hear them) to "enjoy it while they can".

 

I see variations of this stuff every day, and it seems to be getting worse. As a healer, it frustrates me that my role is getting blamed for things that have nothing to do with healing. But as a player who wants to get better, it frustrates me even more that my teammates are so focused on healing that they're missing some really important information.

[Padkhar]

I'm willing to wait on the changes, experiment with them and see what happens. As the OP says, there will undoubtedly be more shifts in the future. So I try not to let that bug me.

 

That said, something is starting to damage my usually calm demeanor. I'm not sure if it has to do with the patch or not, but since it's happening right now it feels like the patch is partly to blame. On my server, and in these forums, there is a growing number of players who are actively hostile to healers. This is especially true in PvP (or just discussions about PvP). We're being blamed for "ruining the game" and the upcoming adjustments to healing are being portrayed as some kind of divine retribution.

 

Some of this is understandable. I've started playing a DPS character myself, and it is frustrating when a healer wipes out all of your hard work. Heck, I'm a healer and I still swear at my computer when that happens to me. If I was the kind of person who posts angry, accusatory rants on the forums, I would probably have posted a few anti-healing rants myself. I'm not. But I don't mind when other players do. We all get to make our own entertainment.

 

But I'm also seeing healers get blamed for a lot of things which have very little to do with healing. Last night we faced a very well-organized Imperial team in Huttball. Not only did they have three healers, one from each healing class, they were also extremely good at focus fire. They'd choose a target, hit that target with 3 or 4 DSPers at once, and it would just melt away. Then they'd choose a new target and do the same thing again.

 

My little pick-up group fought valiantly. We even managed to briefly capture two targets with some tricky maneuvering and some coordination of our own. But once the Imperials figured it out and sent their focus-firing Death Star, we didn't hold the second turret for long.

 

In Ops chat, no one seemed to acknowledge how well the DPSers on the opposing team worked together. Even though players on our team were withering under the Death Star's focus fire, all of the discussion focused on the three opposing healers. If their healers were less effective, the reasoning went, we would have won the game. Many of my teammates were even saying that they couldn't wait for the patch, and telling the other players (in our Ops chat...no I'm not sure how they expected the Imperial players to hear them) to "enjoy it while they can".

 

I see variations of this stuff every day, and it seems to be getting worse. As a healer, it frustrates me that my role is getting blamed for things that have nothing to do with healing. But as a player who wants to get better, it frustrates me even more that my teammates are so focused on healing that they're missing some really important information.

 

This is so true. Even people who usually are appreciative of me helping as a healer are complaining they "don't need" healers in PVP and can't wait for the changes. Well, go ahead and spend more time waiting behind a force field, because if fights are faster, that is what it will mean.

[Karkais]

Exactly: the problem with designing a game on a spreadsheet is that it starts to look more like "Excel: the Game" instead of something people actually want to play.

 

The 1.2 patch demonstrates a lack of imagination, clear and simple. Rather than attempt to actually introduce balance, it instead seeks to normalize output.

 

There's a subtle difference between those two terms, one the Devs arent demonstrating a grasp of: balance is an art form, it cannot be done solely on the numbers, but also the feel of a class.

 

Normalizing instead destroys a class.

 

+1 to you , sir.

[bobudo]

Some of this is understandable. I've started playing a DPS character myself, and it is frustrating when a healer wipes out all of your hard work.

 

What's interesting is that, as a healer, I don't get pissed when someone starts attacking someone I've just gotten back to full health; I expect as much to happen.

 

The complaints you're hearing are from DPS kiddies that rolled over from World of Roguecraft. If they can't solo every class in the game then "things are broken" and "healers need a nerf".

 

It's no wonder they love 1.2 - it shows the Devs are actively listening to them and catering to their needs. The Devs have said as much as well, frequently commenting on "what a success PvP has been" in TOR and saying that it's a top priority.

 

It's also why they're going to break the game, because the PvP team doesn't like healers.

 

That's not hyperbole: it's been quoted before (can't find the quote for the life of me) and it's evident from the PvP design choices that they don't want a healer being able to sit back and heal; they envision PvP healing as something you do spottily to prolong conflicts, not to win them.

 

So take the PvP teams prejudices (they're DPSers at heart) and the PvP kiddies whines and what do you get?

 

Healers that cannot match 1:1 the damage dealt by a DPS class.

 

Watch. 1.3 will nerf tanks, because they'll be the only ones left who can stand up to DPS.

 

Bioware has apparently decided to make this game into Star Wars: The DPS Empire; can't say I'll miss not seeing that.

[Pixel-Pusher]

... it's evident from the PvP design choices that they don't want a healer being able to sit back and heal; they envision PvP healing as something you do spottily to prolong conflicts, not to win them.

 

Their 'vision' for pvp healing boils down to dps ACs with the heal button topping themselves off after an encounter.

[signahead]

What's interesting is that, as a healer, I don't get pissed when someone starts attacking someone I've just gotten back to full health; I expect as much to happen.

 

The complaints you're hearing are from DPS kiddies that rolled over from World of Roguecraft. If they can't solo every class in the game then "things are broken" and "healers need a nerf".

 

It's no wonder they love 1.2 - it shows the Devs are actively listening to them and catering to their needs. The Devs have said as much as well, frequently commenting on "what a success PvP has been" in TOR and saying that it's a top priority.

 

It's also why they're going to break the game, because the PvP team doesn't like healers.

 

That's not hyperbole: it's been quoted before (can't find the quote for the life of me) and it's evident from the PvP design choices that they don't want a healer being able to sit back and heal; they envision PvP healing as something you do spottily to prolong conflicts, not to win them.

 

So take the PvP teams prejudices (they're DPSers at heart) and the PvP kiddies whines and what do you get?

 

Healers that cannot match 1:1 the damage dealt by a DPS class.

 

Watch. 1.3 will nerf tanks, because they'll be the only ones left who can stand up to DPS.

 

Bioware has apparently decided to make this game into Star Wars: The DPS Empire; can't say I'll miss not seeing that.

 

Since I can't get inside the developers' heads, I'm wary about saying what's going on there. And I really am willing to wait and test things out before I form an opinion.

 

But I can say that the atmosphere for healers in PvP, at least on my server and the forums, is pretty awful. Getting crushed by focus fire while listening to the people that I try to keep alive complain about healing doesn't make PvP fun. It makes PvP very, very frustrating.

 

Fortunately, I have my alts to keep me entertained. I didn't realize it until today, but aside from a quick Ops run, I haven't logged in with my healer in nearly 2 weeks. Even though my Gunslinger has almost no support abilities (aside from some admittedly excellent peeling powers) and my Shadow tank is spectacularly awful (it's the first time I have ever played a tank), they both feel more at home in a PvP team than my healer does.

[Doomsdaycomes]

 

The players that fail, what will they do? Will they stay and continue to fail. And what of the mediocre players. This is not a free to play MMO. Players will not pay to just get buy. They most certainly will not pay to fail. Can the great players alone finance this game?

 

 

+1

 

On top of this, these nerfs (with the exception of the maurader/Sentinel buff which I am sure will bring a reactionary re-nerf) are across the board and are quite equally heavy handed. I play multipile Champ geared 50's (3 to be exact) of different roles and have found 0 reason to QQ. So please stop these threads until you see it on live and can make an educated "Live" decision.

[codydmaan]

(FOR THE COMPLAINERS ABOUT 1.2)

 

update we will have to live with.

 

Complaints are ok.

 

They will probably change more stuff after this update.

 

They never said the changes were permanent FOREVER.

 

You dont have to over complain though (not a good gaming environment)

 

 

(I have a lvl 50 shadow tank (not happy with the damage output but oh well hes a tank!)

 

(have a 25 sage healer (not happy with the nerfs i hear that they are getting)

 

But ohh well if you can live with it and still succeed you become a good gamer.

 

 

 

Everyone should be up for a challenge